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View Full Version : Can you dros a gun without the gun?


tpliquid1
02-07-2011, 11:12 AM
If you order gun online, can you dros it at your FFL before the gun gets there? Or does the gun have to be there for you to dros?

Librarian
02-07-2011, 11:14 AM
If you order gun online, can you dros it at your FFL before the gun gets there? Or does the gun have to be there for you to dros?

Gun has to be physically present at the dealer so it can be properly entered in dealer's inventory.

Sorry - DROS can't be started any sooner.
Wrong, wrong! Mea culpa.

Correct information below.

Kestryll
02-07-2011, 11:36 AM
Not too sure that's correct.

I think it may vary depending on type of firearm (long arm vs. handgun).

I remember many people DROSing their lower receivers while it was in transit.

Veggie
02-07-2011, 11:49 AM
Not too sure that's correct.

I think it may vary depending on type of firearm (long arm vs. handgun).

I remember many people DROSing their lower receivers while it was in transit.

I remember this as well.

jaymz
02-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Long arms can be dros'd without physically being present - no serial# needed. Handguns must be present.

Ordnance1
02-07-2011, 11:53 AM
FFL can dros a handgun as long as he has make, model, and serial number. In other words, all the appropriate information for the DROS paperwork. A rifle can also be DROSed before it gets to the FFL as well although they are not registered. For those of you who are about to tell me I am full of it, I have personally done both before with my local FFL so I suppose it is really up to the individual FFL as to whether they will do it or not.

Librarian
02-07-2011, 11:57 AM
Really? (Well, yes, you all just said so.)

Sorry, I must have mis-remembered - apologies.

dantodd
02-07-2011, 12:24 PM
Do why can't I do this with a PPT?

BigFatGuy
02-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Really? (Well, yes, you all just said so.)

Sorry, I must have mis-remembered - apologies.

Librarian... made... a... mistake?

My world view is shattered! I'm going to go home and curl up on my bed for a while now.

BayAreaShooter
02-07-2011, 1:33 PM
Librarian... made... a... mistake?

My world view is shattered! I'm going to go home and curl up on my bed for a while now.

I will never look at him the same. Really though everyone makes mistakes or maybe someone hacked his account and started making fraudulent post. Yea thats what happened. ;)

Porterhouse
02-07-2011, 1:41 PM
Does that mean that I could call Turner's (for example) and purchase a firearm over the phone after I give them all my information and my credit card #, they can start the DROS and I can pick-up my new firearm in person the next time I am in town so long as it's less than 40 days (10 DROS + 30 days maximum)?

TMC
02-07-2011, 1:45 PM
Do why can't I do this with a PPT?

You can but it's at the discretion on the FFL if he wants to be liable for info he cannot physically verify. One's I have dealt with do not like to do it.

Another liability for the FFL is if he is audited by the DOJ during the waiting period and cannot produce the firearm he will have a problem.

Librarian
02-07-2011, 1:51 PM
I couldn't find it just now, but there's a quote, I think attributed to Ronald Reagan, that goes something like

It isn't what you don't know that's a problem, but what you DO know that's WRONG.... :o

jaymz
02-07-2011, 1:54 PM
Does that mean that I could call Turner's (for example) and purchase a firearm over the phone after I give them all my information and my credit card #, they can start the DROS and I can pick-up my new firearm in person the next time I am in town so long as it's less than 40 days (10 DROS + 30 days maximum)?

Nope. You need to be present to start the dros - the firearm doesn't. Most ffl's won't do a dros without both the buyer and the firearm being present.

Porterhouse
02-07-2011, 1:59 PM
Nope. You need to be present to start the dros - the firearm doesn't. Most ffl's won't do a dros without both the buyer and the firearm being present.

Is that the law? If it's a matter of a signature, could that be handled through the mail/a courier?

jtmkinsd
02-07-2011, 2:06 PM
A long gun may be DROSed with proper documentation that the firearm is in transit to the receiving FFL. While some say a handgun can be done as well, most will not start DROS until the handgun is physically on sight. Invoices are notoriously erroneous when it comes to identifying information on the firearm, so to eliminate any confusion and having to edit existing DROS information, we require handguns to be on the premises to DROS.

jtmkinsd
02-07-2011, 2:10 PM
Is that the law? If it's a matter of a signature, could that be handled through the mail/a courier?

Verifiability is the key. I don't know who signed what unless they are standing in front of me.

4acae86
02-07-2011, 2:24 PM
When I purchased my G21 from Turners, the gun was not physically there for them to start the DROS, but they gave me one from their warehouse, which is probably why they had the serial numbers ready.

jaymz
02-07-2011, 2:39 PM
Is that the law? If it's a matter of a signature, could that be handled through the mail/a courier?

That seems to be a gray area depending on who you ask, I personally think that you should be able to call/email your info to start the dros, and the ffl can verify when you pick up your gun, but it doesn't matter what I think - most, if not all ffl's will not do it that way.

Crom
02-07-2011, 2:48 PM
Here is a thread on the subject of handguns and whether or not the gun must be present for DROS purposes: Gun show question. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=354970)

My conclusion after reading the thread was NO, the gun does not need to be physically there, but the buyer must.

Porterhouse
02-07-2011, 3:40 PM
Verifiability is the key. I don't know who signed what unless they are standing in front of me.
But you'll certainly know who ultimately picks up the firearm...

tenpercentfirearms
02-07-2011, 3:50 PM
A lot of this is up for interpretation.

First, the Penal Code makes no mention that a firearm must be present to start DROS. You must put down all of the relevant data for the handgun, but it does not state it must be present.

However, the CA DOJ wrote me up for starting a handgun that was not present and made my partner cancel the DROS. The freaking handgun showed up while the agent was still there.

Nothing really came of it so I just let it go and ate the $25. Sometimes it is a give and take game.

For long guns they couldn't get away with that because if they asked which long gun went with the DROS, I could just pick one and say, "That one." They have no way to prove me wrong.

Second, there is nothing in the law that specifically states that someone must be present to start a DROS, however, it does state you must verify their identity. Part of that process is also swiping their CA ID or DL through the magnetic reader. There is no way to do that remotely.

Some people might argue that you could go to another dealer and they could swipe the data and send it to you, but I find that an absurd proposition. I have no idea if the other dealer is lying or who they are. I am not about to trust them as they don't work for me and I have no control over the other dealer.

So for my shop, I will not remote start a DROS on a customer that has not been into my shop. That customer could in theory come in and fill out a DROS worksheet and I could look at and swipe their DL or ID and then I could start the DROS later for some odd reason. However, unless I can verify who they are in person, I am not about to start their paperwork.

For a PPT, you could collect a seller's information and get a signature on a DROS worksheet and then start the buyer at a later time when they come in. You could also in theory do that the other way around (except the gun wouldn't be there, so probably not on handguns).

On all of these things I do, I make it abundantly clear to the customer if the gun does not arrive in 30 days, the DROS expires and they are out $25. If they are willing to start a DROS without a gun being present, they are on the hook for the $25 if it falls through.


But you'll certainly know who ultimately picks up the firearm...The penal code specifically states you must know your customer and swipe the ID before starting the DROS. Also, there really isn't a way to confirm that is the actual person who came in the first time if they never came in the first time.

ontargetrange
02-07-2011, 4:58 PM
We experienced the same issue with DOJ and after the LONG painful expensive discussion, just adopted the "ALL must be present" policy to preclude any more time with agents and audits.

Is this convient for all - NO -- but the customers out there have to understand the liability and issues with interacting with DOJ. They have the ability to make a business spend many hours and our capital pushing back aganist their "rules". Until a person sits through hours of meaningless paperwork review and sees the impact of an audit for 2, 3, or more days, you can not quite understand why you choose to adopt a policy.

As a business I have to pick my fights and allocate budgets accordingly. I allocate much to CalGuns because they are fighting these issues and more. I support challanging the rules and gray policy requirements that affect all of us at the State and Federal levels. With members of Calguns as well informed and involved as they are, it make my job easier to run my business.

jtmkinsd
02-07-2011, 6:43 PM
Until a person sits through hours of meaningless paperwork review and sees the impact of an audit for 2, 3, or more days, you can not quite understand why you choose to adopt a policy.

+1

What I try to get from the policies put in place is repeatability in the process. Adopting a "one size fits all" process cuts down on errors, which can get expensive (in both money and my freedom). Some snot nose walks in and gets angry and says "that's BS, why can't you just..." They have no clue what's at stake, they simply want their toy and it's my fault they can't have it when and how they would like it. It is what it is, I try not to let it bother me, mostly because we all suffer because of DOJ and the legislature...I'm just the convenient target for the customer.

Dieseldog
02-07-2011, 10:20 PM
I've done both with my local FFL too. I just DROS a lower this month.

magsnubby
02-08-2011, 11:12 AM
I've had several handguns DROSed without the gun being physically present. The dealer ordered the gun, got the serial number from the distributor, did the DROS and i picked the gun up 10 days later.

Porterhouse
02-08-2011, 11:39 AM
A lot of this is up for interpretation.

First, the Penal Code makes no mention that a firearm must be present to start DROS. You must put down all of the relevant data for the handgun, but it does not state it must be present.

However, the CA DOJ wrote me up for starting a handgun that was not present and made my partner cancel the DROS. The freaking handgun showed up while the agent was still there.

Nothing really came of it so I just let it go and ate the $25. Sometimes it is a give and take game.

For long guns they couldn't get away with that because if they asked which long gun went with the DROS, I could just pick one and say, "That one." They have no way to prove me wrong.

Second, there is nothing in the law that specifically states that someone must be present to start a DROS, however, it does state you must verify their identity. Part of that process is also swiping their CA ID or DL through the magnetic reader. There is no way to do that remotely.

Some people might argue that you could go to another dealer and they could swipe the data and send it to you, but I find that an absurd proposition. I have no idea if the other dealer is lying or who they are. I am not about to trust them as they don't work for me and I have no control over the other dealer.

So for my shop, I will not remote start a DROS on a customer that has not been into my shop. That customer could in theory come in and fill out a DROS worksheet and I could look at and swipe their DL or ID and then I could start the DROS later for some odd reason. However, unless I can verify who they are in person, I am not about to start their paperwork.

For a PPT, you could collect a seller's information and get a signature on a DROS worksheet and then start the buyer at a later time when they come in. You could also in theory do that the other way around (except the gun wouldn't be there, so probably not on handguns).

On all of these things I do, I make it abundantly clear to the customer if the gun does not arrive in 30 days, the DROS expires and they are out $25. If they are willing to start a DROS without a gun being present, they are on the hook for the $25 if it falls through.


The penal code specifically states you must know your customer and swipe the ID before starting the DROS. Also, there really isn't a way to confirm that is the actual person who came in the first time if they never came in the first time.
If it's legal I can definitely see why people would be interested in doing that. It used to be that (for example) Turner's used to have some sizzling deals. Driving 100 miles one way for me just to pick up a gun is not always easy. If I could call them, have them pull a DROS form a file that I had completed when I was in their store earlier and start the DROS that would save 200 miles of driving in my case.

magsnubby
02-08-2011, 12:37 PM
I just got back from PRK where i DROSed a Ruger SR9c. The gun is in transit with a ETA for later today.

jtmkinsd
02-08-2011, 1:41 PM
I just got back from PRK where i DROSed a Ruger SR9c. The gun is in transit with a ETA for later today.

Nobody here has said it couldn't be done AFAIK.

Anchors
02-08-2011, 1:55 PM
Does that mean that I could call Turner's (for example) and purchase a firearm over the phone after I give them all my information and my credit card #, they can start the DROS and I can pick-up my new firearm in person the next time I am in town so long as it's less than 40 days (10 DROS + 30 days maximum)?

Didn't read the whole thread, just that everyone clarified DROS while gun is in transit.

Just wanted to add in case no one has gotten to it that YOU must be physically present to start a DROS. The firearm, however, does not.

magsnubby
02-09-2011, 12:37 AM
Nobody here has said it couldn't be done AFAIK.

Long arms can be dros'd without physically being present - no serial# needed. Handguns must be present.

I posted so people know it can be done and has been done.

johnthomas
02-09-2011, 12:41 AM
If you shoot someone with the gun you don't have, would it hurt? lol

tenpercentfirearms
02-09-2011, 6:39 AM
If it's legal I can definitely see why people would be interested in doing that. It used to be that (for example) Turner's used to have some sizzling deals. Driving 100 miles one way for me just to pick up a gun is not always easy. If I could call them, have them pull a DROS form a file that I had completed when I was in their store earlier and start the DROS that would save 200 miles of driving in my case.

However, you would still have to come in to fill out the worksheet and give copies of all of your documents. It still is going to take two trips.

magsnubby
02-09-2011, 10:08 AM
If you shoot someone with the gun you don't have, would it hurt? lol

Only in their imagination.

dantodd
02-09-2011, 10:32 AM
However, you would still have to come in to fill out the worksheet and give copies of all of your documents. It still is going to take two trips.

And that's the ridiculous part. If the goal of the 10 day wait is to stop people from impulse buying a gun making a person show up twice is unnecessary and simply an infringement. If I call to order or express my intent to purchase a gun and then come in 10 days later how is that any less of a "cooling off period" than if I drive down and order the gun?

jtmkinsd
02-09-2011, 11:38 AM
And that's the ridiculous part. If the goal of the 10 day wait is to stop people from impulse buying a gun making a person show up twice is unnecessary and simply an infringement. If I call to order or express my intent to purchase a gun and then come in 10 days later how is that any less of a "cooling off period" than if I drive down and order the gun?

To a reasonable individual it makes no difference...who makes the rules again? :p

Old4eyes
02-09-2011, 8:30 PM
The last pistol I purchased had the DROS started without the gun being present. The shop had to get the serial number from the distributor. In all, it saved about 3-4 days. If the shop had waited until the gun arrived, from the time of purchase to the time of pickup would have been 13-14 days.

As others have pointed out, the shop has to be really trusting that the serial number, description, model # are all correct without the gun in hand. I could understand a shop not willing to do a DROS without the gun being physically present.

jtmkinsd
02-09-2011, 8:46 PM
The last pistol I purchased had the DROS started without the gun being present. The shop had to get the serial number from the distributor. In all, it saved about 3-4 days. If the shop had waited until the gun arrived, from the time of purchase to the time of pickup would have been 13-14 days.

As others have pointed out, the shop has to be really trusting that the serial number, description, model # are all correct without the gun in hand. I could understand a shop not willing to do a DROS without the gun being physically present.

Not to mention if their is a "scratch" on their precious firearm, and they refuse to accept it. It can open a really nasty can of worms. It's all fun and games with the "gotta have it now" crowd, until they are looking for someone else to pick up the re-DROS fee (and you might be surprised how vicious customers can get over $25) that they will have to pay because they wanted to "save 3 or 4 days".