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View Full Version : Its been said before and needs to be said again


AXI
02-06-2011, 7:03 PM
Gun owners are the worst enemy of gun owners.

I was speaking to someone earlier at the gym.

Grey haired, with an American flag shirt. Began to speak
to me about the conservative point, anti-immigration, pro-racial profiling
(although not constitutional), etc.

I'm not going to judge, which is good because that means that I will be judged. However, it is worth noting, that him mentioning 2A actually proved
a point that people with far right views being outspoken about 2A (alone) is
a problem.

I am not a republican or a democrat, but I know that people who alienate
those who are not of their party and yet talk about a an amendment in the
Bill of Rights in context with personal bias, are only making things harder.

2A needs to immediately stop being falsely associated with any party in particular. If you go back just 17 years, you will find that democrats and republicans shared a lot of interests, go back far enough and their platforms are reversed. Political parties are dynamic and subject to change, the law is not (2A won't be "removed"). We need to not associate the permanant with the temporary, and never under any circumstance alienate others.

Welcome anyone who you find "different" to partake in their right under our country, and it is important to note that being nationalist in America is done by exercising your rights, not in contempt but for fun. If you are conservative and you see an emo on the street, don't go on a rant about how feminine or unsightly the fashion is, give them a flyer and welcome them to your club.

get over your political position, because 2A is an interest. Our interest groups are color and party-blind, it is important to be welcoming and polite in all circumstances.

Just my thoughts.

We should not alienate anyone or judge them for their position, but we can welcome them as neighbors and be hospital. The golden rule is so valuable.

Don29palms
02-06-2011, 7:16 PM
The golden rule is so valuable.

He who has the gold rules!

How is that valuable in this?

toyotaguy
02-06-2011, 7:28 PM
Gun owners are the worst enemy of gun owners.

I was speaking to someone earlier at the gym.

Grey haired, with an American flag shirt. Began to speak
to me about the conservative point, anti-immigration, pro-racial profiling
(although not constitutional), etc.

I'm not going to judge, which is good because that means that I will be judged. However, it is worth noting, that him mentioning 2A actually proved
a point that people with far right views being outspoken about 2A (alone) is
a problem.

I am not a republican or a democrat, but I know that people who alienate
those who are not of their party and yet talk about a an amendment in the
Bill of Rights in context with personal bias, are only making things harder.

2A needs to immediately stop being falsely associated with any party in particular. If you go back just 17 years, you will find that democrats and republicans shared a lot of interests, go back far enough and their platforms are reversed. Political parties are dynamic and subject to change, the law is not (2A won't be "removed"). We need to not associate the permanant with the temporary, and never under any circumstance alienate others.

Welcome anyone who you find "different" to partake in their right under our country, and it is important to note that being nationalist in America is done by exercising your rights, not in contempt but for fun. If you are conservative and you see an emo on the street, don't go on a rant about how feminine or unsightly the fashion is, give them a flyer and welcome them to your club.

get over your political position, because 2A is an interest. Our interest groups are color and party-blind, it is important to be welcoming and polite in all circumstances.

Just my thoughts.

We should not alienate anyone or judge them for their position, but we can welcome them as neighbors and be hospital. The golden rule is so valuable.

Well said.

Dutch3
02-06-2011, 7:38 PM
I am not a republican or a democrat, but I know that people who alienate
those who are not of their party and yet talk about a an amendment in the
Bill of Rights in context with personal bias, are only making things harder.

2A needs to immediately stop being falsely associated with any party in particular. If you go back just 17 years, you will find that democrats and republicans shared a lot of interests, go back far enough and their platforms are reversed. Political parties are dynamic and subject to change, the law is not (2A won't be "removed"). We need to not associate the permanant with the temporary, and never under any circumstance alienate others.


I'm not a Democrat or Republican either, but if you go back about 70 years you will find a generation of people of a class that is primarily nonexistent today. The ideals of personal sacrifice for one's Nation and pulling together for a common goal (instead of scattering) do not easily die among those with a sense of Country.

Don't be so quick to judge those old gray-haired guys, as many of them died to provide you with what you enjoy today. The ones who lived tend to have some well-earned opinions.

I agree that we need to present a coordinated front, but that will require many being alienated, because they will refuse to commit themselves or be unwilling to discard their attitudes of entitlement and irresponsibility.

As for "being hospital", I am not sure what you meant...perhaps "hospitable"? At any rate, I would gladly open my home for use as a hospital should that ever become necessary. I probably need to mop the floor first.

BillCA
02-06-2011, 8:37 PM
No cause is so right that you can't find an idiot following it.
The media uses this rule to seek out and locate the least appealing participant of groups or events they want to discourage or show up badly.

While our interest in firearms-related subjects can transcend party politics and lifestyles, we should always keep in mind the image that is projected to the public.

Of course one problem we face is that many other voters do not vote based on 2A Politics no matter how "educated" they are. Or they are not single-issue voters.

Letitrip
02-06-2011, 9:09 PM
I have to agree with the OP. I'm not a democrat per-se, but I am liberal on many issues and I am pro gun.

I have actually felt alienated many times being around gun folks, including this forum. I have mentioned many times that 2nd amendment friendly folks should not confuse themselves with a political party as a political party or even a political affiliation does not necessarily reflect a person's views on guns.

I have several liberal leaning friends that are hardcore pro 2nd while at the same time I have co-workers that identify themselves as "Republican" or "Conservative" but are not gun friendly. I hope everyone listens up, as this is a very important issue that can affect how gun rights are either expanded and restricted in the future.

InGrAM
02-06-2011, 9:12 PM
Not trying to piss anyone off with this.. BUT.... most democrats are anti gun, or would not care if our rights to own firearms where taken away all together.

Educated gun owners tend to vote more to the right because lefties try and make us out to be criminals by owning firearms.

Dems care more about getting the vote and holding power over us then actually what to do to solve REAL problems like the deficit.

not trying to piss anyone off just MY opinion.

kln5
02-06-2011, 9:31 PM
I agree. I just found out this weekend that good friends of ours that I know are very liberal want to go skeet shooting. My wife and I shared a little of our shooting sport stories with them and are going to take them to the range.
You never know who you are going to find to convert to our side. Sometimes you just have to work a little harder to get some to come around.
My mom for instance, still deathly afraid of firearms, just went into a gun store for the second time with me. That is two trips into a gun store in the last two years out of the 15 that I have been enjoying the shooting sports or activities.

bsim
02-06-2011, 10:43 PM
You must be young. As you get older, you begin really believe what you've learned over the years.

Yes, 2A is not party related, however you DO find more "conservative" folks backing it because they tend to "conserve" the founder's ideals. More liberal youngsters seem to think the "man" is the enemy, and we should be progressive in our thinking (read, change with the times).

But this caught my eye:...it is worth noting, that him mentioning 2A actually proved a point that people with far right views being outspoken about 2A (alone) is
a problem.Why is that a "problem"? What's wrong with being an outspoken 2A proponent, regardless of party?

glockwise2000
02-06-2011, 11:28 PM
Regardless whether you are a Dem or Rep doesn't bother me much. I have friends who are Dems and have a very liberal point of view in life but they go shooting with us all the time.

SupportGeek
02-07-2011, 12:34 AM
Not trying to piss anyone off with this.. BUT.... most democrats are anti gun, or would not care if our rights to own firearms where taken away all together.

You have any hard data to back up this assertion?
I will admit, for now all I personally have is anecdotal evidence, while it appears to me more of the politicians with a "D" in front of their name have an anti-gun stance, I know a LOT of liberal voters, and not a single one of them is anti-gun, some are even hardcore enthusiasts.
(perhaps they are all closet libertarians?)


Dems care more about getting the vote and holding power over us then actually what to do to solve REAL problems like the deficit.

As you get older, you realize this isnt just Dems that are worried about this, its ALL politicians. A man once told me this "A politicians only job is to get re-elected."
I dont trust any politician ever, not a single one of them has yours or my interests at heart.

Falconis
02-07-2011, 2:06 AM
I'm with Dutch about old gray haired guys, you never know what they did to earn their opinion till you know them. I'm not gray haired yet, but if I'm like my dad, I should be there in the future.

I get the message you were trying to illustrate. My personal view is that some of us act more like Gorillas tossing our crap around than a spokesperson for the right we are trying to win back in this state. By constantly screaming it's a damn right and not a damn need does no good. Starting out a "debate" by saying something like How the hell can you think like that also does no good. Coming across as someone who is reasonable and with good counter arguments is the best strategy I have found that works for me. Granted there are a lot of anti gun people in this state who will hear of no reason what so ever. The important thing I usually try to leave with for the other person is, "If I have to argue with him, I better come with a better game plan". I usually find anti gunners have no personal view and just spout out what has been said a 100 times before.

As far as voting, I don't think enough of us do it. A lot of working class people, yes I still believe that class is alive in California, usually find an excuse not to vote. I can't argue the excuse either when it comes to work and they say their boss is an A hole. All I can really try and say is you should try harder if you don't like you taxes going up constantly. The other prong I think we need to attack is education. There are a lot of sheeple in California. They don't know any better and they listen to the drivel that is on the news constantly.

Sorry I'll return the soapbox now.

**Ohh and I would think twice before talking an emo onto our side. But that's me.

Pixs
02-07-2011, 9:36 AM
This is a great thread. We all need to look at the underlying reasons why people form opinions. Unfortunately, politicians rely on polls far too much and work with too many lobbyist and spin doctors. Their goal is primarily to get reelected and rightfully so, after all they would not be able to guide the political subdivision unless they are reelected. This is not about Republicans, Democrats, conservatives or liberals; it's about Americans trying to do what is right. Let's fight for truth on the issues. Demand that commentary and editorial content be labeled as such and not presented as news. So, do you beat your wife every day or every other day?

Porterhouse
02-07-2011, 10:06 AM
You are so very right! There is so much alienation through ignorance! I know many pro-RKBA individuals who are politically liberal, typically from a social justice and not a fiscal standpoint. It's sad that such people get turned off because others are unable to accurately vent their anger except to blame "liberals."

Overtly pro-gun environments, be they ranges, gun shops or web forums do seem to draw an inordinate number of what would be thought of as ignorant and ill-informed individuals and that does impact our RKBA.

Porterhouse
02-07-2011, 10:13 AM
Not trying to piss anyone off with this.. BUT.... most democrats are anti gun, or would not care if our rights to own firearms where taken away all together.

That's your opinion. You don't know this. The very fact that you don't know this yet still make such comments is often the problem.

Educated gun owners tend to vote more to the right because lefties try and make us out to be criminals by owning firearms.

That's your opinion. You don't know this...

Dems care more about getting the vote and holding power over us then actually what to do to solve REAL problems like the deficit.

That's your opinion. You don't know this.

not trying to piss anyone off just MY opinion.

Just your opinion. You got that right.

Solcat
02-07-2011, 10:25 AM
You must be young. As you get older, you begin really believe what you've learned over the years.

Yes, 2A is not party related, however you DO find more "conservative" folks backing it because they tend to "conserve" the founder's ideals. More liberal youngsters seem to think the "man" is the enemy, and we should be progressive in our thinking (read, change with the times).

But this caught my eye:Why is that a "problem"? What's wrong with being an outspoken 2A proponent, regardless of party?

Grey hairs may have a great deal of wisdom, but in life many opinions are formed from limited knowledge or during differnt times, and they are not always right. Opinions need to be challenged so that real wisdom can be had-- and shared. In my opinion.., there are far too few true wise elders in world today, and probably even fewer that post of Internet forums:)

There is no problem with being outspoken with your views in many cases, BUT I think the point being made is if you are considered out there, and your opinions not well thought out, such as the "fact' that our founding fathers worked tirelessly to end slavery as they wrote the constitution and we also need to fight for our 2A rights, then your opinions will correctly be viewed as poorly thought out and lacking in reason and facts, and your 2A views lumped into the same irrational garbage can. In my opinion, it is like saying we don't need any gang members saying how much they have a right to automatic weapons (assuming no felony convictions of course). It just does not help....

I also don't agree with the statement on "conservatives" (which just like liberal, really has no meaning other than whatever the spin doctors have spun it to today) conserve the values of the founding fathers, 2A may be one point that does seem to fall that way, but I counter with the mis-named "Patriot Act" which I believe trumps any 2A rights you may ever eek out, but that is another long and I suspect, unresolvable discussion.

AndrewMendez
02-07-2011, 10:32 AM
The problem with being a Democrat, and supporting the 2A, is you, more often then not, vote for a Democrat who is infact, very antigun in their voting.

I would also like to add, that I have no idea why this is in the 2A sub forum. But, I am not a moderator, so carry on.

ap3572001
02-07-2011, 10:34 AM
Gun owners are the worst enemy of gun owners.

I was speaking to someone earlier at the gym.

Grey haired, with an American flag shirt. Began to speak
to me about the conservative point, anti-immigration, pro-racial profiling
(although not constitutional), etc.

I'm not going to judge, which is good because that means that I will be judged. However, it is worth noting, that him mentioning 2A actually proved
a point that people with far right views being outspoken about 2A (alone) is
a problem.

I am not a republican or a democrat, but I know that people who alienate
those who are not of their party and yet talk about a an amendment in the
Bill of Rights in context with personal bias, are only making things harder.

2A needs to immediately stop being falsely associated with any party in particular. If you go back just 17 years, you will find that democrats and republicans shared a lot of interests, go back far enough and their platforms are reversed. Political parties are dynamic and subject to change, the law is not (2A won't be "removed"). We need to not associate the permanant with the temporary, and never under any circumstance alienate others.

Welcome anyone who you find "different" to partake in their right under our country, and it is important to note that being nationalist in America is done by exercising your rights, not in contempt but for fun. If you are conservative and you see an emo on the street, don't go on a rant about how feminine or unsightly the fashion is, give them a flyer and welcome them to your club.

get over your political position, because 2A is an interest. Our interest groups are color and party-blind, it is important to be welcoming and polite in all circumstances.

Just my thoughts.

We should not alienate anyone or judge them for their position, but we can welcome them as neighbors and be hospital. The golden rule is so valuable.

I agree....

press1280
02-07-2011, 10:37 AM
I agree with part of what you said about alienating people, however, you need to clarify a few things:

Was the guy against ALL immigration or just illegal immigration? Lets make sure we call it straight, and not do what the media does: Make legal and illegal immigration the same exact thing. Against one, against both.

I also agree gun owners should know more about the history of the 2A and gun control. The minorities, who unfortunately vote for anti-gun candidates, may vote differently if they knew the true motives behind gun control. That's one area where we could make a real difference.

Luieburger
02-07-2011, 10:47 AM
I find that the best way to win hearts and minds is to help anti-gunners to view gun rights as similar to gay rights and other civil rights. Liberals have a lot of good civil rights work under their belts that they can swing pretty heavily. When you attach gun rights to women's rights (a womans right to defend herself from people who want to do her harm) or gay rights (gays defending themselves from violent hate crimes) you help them to see the connection. Once they realize that ALL of their civil rights are strengthened by exercising the 2nd Amendment, they begin to change their minds.

I was an anti-gunner once, and a pure liberal. Understanding the 2nd Amendment instead of lumping it together with the rest of the evangelical conservative agenda is what made me a pro-gunner.

Wherryj
02-07-2011, 1:02 PM
He who has the gold rules!

How is that valuable in this?

You question the value of gold? It must be valuable-I get at least three emails a day telling me to invest in it immediately!