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FlatBolt
02-06-2011, 2:38 PM
In Oct 2009 I was 5150’d as “Gravely disabled” late on a Monday. On Thursday of the same week I was 5250’d as Gravely disabled, on Friday I had a Patient hearing where it was ruled by a CA. Superior Court Judge “Probable cause does not exist to hold the patient on grounds of “Gravely disabled”, I was released immediately. My question is: Shouldn’t this ruling have nullified the 5250 if probable cause didn’t exist in the first place for the hold, and therefore have NOT been reported to the DOJ? . What if the judge had been there on Thursday for the 5250 and it was ruled probable cause didn’t exist...No 5250.. Right? Or, am I just screwed here because it got to 5250 for one day? Is there a way I can work with the VA to have the VA facility remove my name/5250 from the DOJ list? This situation has come to light because of a recent denial to purchase a firearm and the clock is ticking. TIA

Update...Full Firearms rights restored!!!....

To back track a bit... I obtained my VA Mental Health records...Main fact I had omitted at the beginning of this post was my 5150 included Danger to Others. I petitioned my local court and successfully got the 5150 5 year ban lifted.

The 5250... Even though the determination at my Certification Review Hearing was that probable cause did not exist to detain me as Gravely Disabled and my immediate release that day was ordered, I discovered when I checked with the CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms that I was still banned for life of firearms ownership as a Mental Defective because they were notified I was to be held pursuant to 5250 for treatment.. Explaining that I was not held for treatment did no good. I was told that the VA had to undo the 5250...Months go by...It took a zillion polite phone calls to the VA and CA DOJ BOF and lots of patience on everyone’s part to get a precise picture of the hoops that needed to be jumped through...Months go by...It wound up taking two letters written by the Head of the VA facility to CA DOJ BOF, the first one not being precise enough. The second letter was a statement by the Doctor in charge of my case that stated something along the lines that notification of the 5250 to CA DOJ BOF had been premature as it was made before the CR Hearing was held. The second letter did the trick and the flagging on me at CADOJ BOF is removed and as far as I know my full firearms rights are restored.
Scuttlebutt has it that these notification errors was/is/are a systemic problem in that county and maybe under review.
Lost my Guns.....Time constraints for my 5150 hearing caused me to turn my firearms over to the local PD... They held them for well over a year & cut me some slack with my explanations of why it was taking so long and did not charge me for storage as they could have been doing... I even got them to call DOJ but ultimately they were going to have to start charging me... an amount per gun per day that would in short order be in excess of their value... There was only one FFL that could store them for me but at that moment he was going into the hospital for something and his recovery would be longer than the time available for me to get things done...I wound up letting them go to a local guns hop that the PD was familiar with for fifty cents on the dollar, and felt lucky to get that .
So one of these days I’ll get up the nerve to make a purchase...Right now I’m a pretty darn happy camper...

Tripper
02-06-2011, 2:40 PM
You need to petition the court to have it expunged

Tripper

Scott Connors
02-06-2011, 3:30 PM
In Oct 2009 I was 5150’d as “Gravely disabled” late on a Monday. On Thursday of the same week I was 5250’d as Gravely disabled, on Friday I had a Patient hearing where it was ruled by a CA. Superior Court Judge “Probable cause does not exist to hold the patient on grounds of “Gravely disabled”, I was released immediately. My question is: Shouldn’t this ruling have nullified the 5250 if probable cause didn’t exist in the first place for the hold, and therefore have NOT been reported to the DOJ? . What if the judge had been there on Thursday for the 5250 and it was ruled probable cause didn’t exist...No 5250.. Right? Or, am I just screwed here because it got to 5250 for one day? Is there a way I can work with the VA to have the VA facility remove my name/5250 from the DOJ list? This situation has come to light because of a recent denial to purchase a firearm and the clock is ticking. TIA

Being served with the 5250 petition does not incur the lifelong prohibition on firearms possession. That occurs when the actual hearing makes the determination. I gather from your post that you elected to have a habeas corpus hearing instead of a Certification Review Hearing before an administrative law judge and the petition to hold you on the 5250 was denied for lack of probable cause, which would indeed make the hold null and void. You should request a copy of the hearing determination from the mental institution where you were treated. However, the California prohibition on possession for five years (from the 5150) would still be in effect, and this might be what is causing the problem. You need to consult an attorney experienced in firearm and mental health issues about getting your firearm rights restored. The hospital should have given you instructions on petitioning the court for restoration of rights when you were discharged.

FlatBolt
02-06-2011, 4:34 PM
Sorry for not being more clear. I had a Certification Review Hearing. I have a copy of the ruling also.
My understanding on the 5150 is it only counts against firearms ownership if, Quote "If you are placed on a 72-hour hold (also known as a "5150"[1]) as a danger to self or others and admitted to a facility for treatment, you are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms while you are in the facility and for five years from the date of admission to the facility."My 5150 was as Gravely disabled...

At http://www.mabpro.com/resource/docs/cal_firearmsProhibitionForm.pdf I found under

California Statutes
paragraph 3

Simpson 03-07.qxd 2/22/2007 2:06 PM Page 1 provides that, when an individual is placed on a 72- hour hold on grounds of danger to self or others (but not on grounds of grave disability) and admitted to a treatment facility, he or she is thereafter prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms for a period of 5 years.
I have consulted an Attorney, but have not yet retained him... The hospital did not notify me of anything upon release at the time or later. I don’t know when the notification to the DOJ was made.

FlatBolt
02-06-2011, 4:36 PM
Sorry for not being more clear. I had a Certification Review Hearing.I have a copy of the ruling also.
My understanding on the 5150 is it only counts against firearms ownership if, Quote "If you are placed on a 72-hour hold (also known as a "5150"[1]) as a danger to self or others and admitted to a facility for treatment, you are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms while you are in the facility and for five years from the date of admission to the facility." My 5150 was as Gravely disabled...

At http://www.mabpro.com/resource/docs/cal_firearmsProhibitionForm.pdf I found under

California Statutes
paragraph 3

Simpson 03-07.qxd 2/22/2007 2:06 PM Page 1 provides that, when an individual is placed on a 72- hour hold on grounds of danger to self or others (but not on grounds of grave disability) and admitted to a treatment facility, he or she is thereafter prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms for a period of 5 years.
I have consulted an Attorney, but have not yet retained him... The hospital did not notify me of anything upon release at the time or later. I don’t know when the notification to the DOJ was made.

OleCuss
02-06-2011, 4:39 PM
I think you're going to need a good attorney to fix this one. I think that the VA couldn't fix this if they tried - and they probably won't try too hard anyway.

Lawyer is your answer.

GrizzlyGuy
02-06-2011, 4:51 PM
You are correct, the 5150 hold doesn't trigger a post-release firearms prohibition if it was only for "gravely disabled". That is per Welfare & Institutions Code 8103 (http://law.onecle.com/california/welfare/8103.html):

(f) (1) No person who has been (A) taken into custody as provided
in Section 5150 because that person is a danger to himself, herself,
or to others, (B) assessed within the meaning of Section 5151, and
(C) admitted to a designated facility within the meaning of Sections
5151 and 5152 because that person is a danger to himself, herself, or
others, shall own, possess, control, receive, or purchase, or
attempt to own, possess, control, receive, or purchase any firearm
for a period of five years after the person is released from the
facility. A person described in the preceding sentence, however, may
own, possess, control, receive, or purchase, or attempt to own,
possess, control, receive, or purchase any firearm if the superior
court has, pursuant to paragraph (5), found that the People of the
State of California have not met their burden pursuant to paragraph
(6).

More info here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4758181#post4758181) from Michel & Associates. If I lived in southern California, those are the attorneys that I'd be consulting with.

hoffmang
02-06-2011, 6:25 PM
I would suggest getting counsel. Which general area are you in in California?

-Gene

Ron-Solo
02-06-2011, 8:29 PM
L-A-W-Y-E-R

FlatBolt
02-07-2011, 7:08 AM
I'm on the central coast.. Monterey Bay Area... And a big thanks for all the links & help

Capt_Communist
02-07-2011, 7:42 AM
It's going to be an uphill battle, especially since you are dealing with the VA... good luck though

FlatBolt
02-07-2011, 11:07 AM
Another question.. I'm very soon to relinquish my firearms to the police.. However if I lose my case I hope to recover some of my loss . Before relinquishment I would remove anything removable from the barreled receivers or frames and only turn in the serial numbered barreled receivers or frames. I’d remove hammers, bolts, locks, breach blocks, grips, side plates, sights, stocks and any other removable part or hardware from them. Also this precaution my hopefully prevent accidental loss of said parts while in police custody... Python grips for instance go for about $200 on fleabay!.. I maybe mistaken, but possession of those parts does not constitute firearms possession. What say you all to the parts removal idea and the idea that possession of said parts does not constitute firearms possession?

GrizzlyGuy
02-07-2011, 11:27 AM
Another question.. I'm very soon to relinquish my firearms to the police.. However if I lose my case I hope to recover some of my loss . Before relinquishment I would remove anything removable from the barreled receivers or frames and only turn in the serial numbered barreled receivers or frames. Id remove hammers, bolts, locks, breach blocks, grips, side plates, sights, stocks and any other removable part or hardware from them. Also this precaution my hopefully prevent accidental loss of said parts while in police custody... Python grips for instance go for about $200 on fleabay!.. I maybe mistaken, but possession of those parts does not constitute firearms possession. What say you all to the parts removal idea and the idea that possession of said parts does not constitute firearms possession?

You should call a lawyer yesterday and ask them that question.

IANAL, but see 12316 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12316.html) and note that the 5150/8103 prohibition covers more things than just the bare gun:

(b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence.

dantodd
02-07-2011, 11:43 AM
Do not relinquish your weapons to the police. You can transfer to a fiend, family member, our any ffl. If they go to PD the chances of recovery goes down dramatically.

steelrain82
02-07-2011, 1:13 PM
^^^^
I hope he doesnt transfer guns to a fiend.

FlatBolt
02-07-2011, 3:23 PM
Friends...Thanks again for the input.

anthonyca
02-07-2011, 4:58 PM
Get a lawyer and not just any lawyer. You need a calguns recommend lawyer. Gun laws are a different animal and most lawyers are not well versed in that specialty. Trying to save some money now could screw you for the rest of your life.

hoffmang
02-07-2011, 7:48 PM
For where you are http://www.dklawoffice.com/

-Gene