What exactly are you required to tell the police in relation to firearms? [Archive]

TonyNorCal

09-06-2006, 12:35 PM

Traffic stop and the police in one's home threads come about with regularity...

And, as we all know, the police might arrive at your home for any number of reasons...accident, false-positive 911 call, looking for a fugitive from a local crime, etc.

And of course a traffic stop can happen anywhere for any reason.

Now, obviously if the police arrive at your home, the best thing to do is respectfully decline them entry. But apparently sometimes they can enter regardless.

So here's the question...

If in any of the above circumstances the police ask about firearms are you legally required to answer affirmatively?

i.e. Do you have any weapons in the vehicle? Are there any firearms on the premises?

Are you legally obligated to...

1.) answer
2.) show them

~~~~

And of course it goes without saying that one should be organized (have copies of any registration papers, etc.) and one should have an understanding of the law (such as 12276.1 'characteristics) such that all your firearms are lgeally configured at all times.

JPglee1

09-06-2006, 12:36 PM

My advice: Don't listen to what people tell you on the internet...

I would suggest not ever offering up any information, if they can't see it don't say its there. Don't LIE, just don't answer.

Lying will screw you, not answering is your right.

J

TonyNorCal

09-06-2006, 12:51 PM

Yes it goes without saying that one shouldn't take actual legal advice from anyone on this forum unless they're a well-regarded attorney with firearms experience. Or maybe it does bear saying again:) .

This is just a general discussion question.

So you would simply ignore their question?

krim

09-06-2006, 01:30 PM

i've never had any problems w/ LE. Everything i have is legal.

i've been pulled over for doing a faster-than-i-should've left turn. they asked if there was anything in the car they should know about. I said, OC spray and a serated knife in the center armrest and an ar-15 in the trunk. they asked if they could search. I said go ahead, but make it quick cause i had to get home and sleep for a double shift. they poked around while i sat on the sidewalk. they asked if i they could open the rifle case, i said sure. they looked at the rifle, said "That's a nice one, wish we could customize ours." closed the case and wished me a good night.

2nd time, got hit by a semi. CHP office asked if i was alright, i said yes and i hoped my rifle was okay. he said I hope so too, got me over to the shoulder and off the freeway, called for a flatbed. Used a crowbar to get my trunk open, put my rifle in his trunk for safe keeping. filled out the paperwork for the accident and took me and my rifle home.

imho, if you aren't doing something wrong and you're upfront w/ the officer they're generally not going to hassel you.

YMMV.

metalhead357

09-06-2006, 01:30 PM

No legal advice here,
that said.

A cop may only detain you to determin who you are. ANYTHING beyond that could be construed as unreasonable in some courts. It would play out differently whether you're on the street in your car or at your house but simple rule is........

You are NOT required to provide cops with any info other than your identification. ANY other questions involved CAN BE ASKED AND ANSWERED in the presence of an attorney. I'd use that right.

First thing a lawyer is going to ask, and you should to- "AM I UNDER investigation for something?" if the answer is YES, you have the right to an attorney, if they say no (and they can lie.....) then you are under NO legal obligation to answer any questions. PERIOD. (but there ARE drawbacks to this approach)

BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT all that said you jeapordize a couple hours of your life while your non coopering butt DOES get hauled downtown for the phone call to the lawyer, subsequent wait, etc. Allotta hassle and grief over a couple questions.

You're on your own if/when it comes to "peeking" into your safe. Personally I'd tell them to pound dirt without a search warrent.:cool: And failing to cooperate with a police investigation is not probable cause to search your house...........and/or your safe unless yerrrr' big mouth has given them some indication that there might actually be something other than 100% legitimately owed and 100% legitimate stuff in said safe.

(edit)
The last above was for a home. IF you are pulled over and admit to having a gun...THAT IS an Absolute ok for the cop to do a custodial safety search to determine that the weapon is in fact being transported legally and not loaded (for a Non CCW)

I aint a lawyer, but I Did one once on a TV:p so take the free advice as just that...free; and go talk to a real attorney!!!!!!!!

JPglee1

09-06-2006, 01:35 PM

You're on your own if/when it comes to "peeking" into your safe. Personally I'd tell them to pound dirt without a search warrent.:cool: And failing to cooperate with a police investigation is not probable cause to search your house...........and/or your safe unless yerrrr' big mouth has given them some indication that there might actually be something other than 100% legitimately owed and 100% legitimate stuff in said safe.

I aint a lawyer, but I Did one once on a TV:p so take the free advice as just that...free; and go talk to a real attorney!!!!!!!!

I agree... cars are a whole other issue cuz officer safety comes into play... In your home I'd definitely refuse any search w/out a warrant.

Its not so easy in a car...you get the standard "If you're not guilt why can't I search" line...

I would counter with the "I'm late for work, you can follow me to my office and search all you want, but I don't have time to be doing this on the side of the road when you don't have any probable cause of me doing anything illegal. Im more than happy to accomodate your request if you follow me"

Its worked before :D If they feel they can legally search w/out consent they WILL DO SO without asking you if they can...remember that.

J

Shane916

09-06-2006, 02:05 PM

If you have nothing to hide then why not allow the officer to search? :p

hawk1

09-06-2006, 02:12 PM

If you have nothing to hide then why not allow the officer to search? :p
Wow! Only in America....:eek: I hope you were joking...

1911_sfca

09-06-2006, 03:54 PM

If you have nothing to hide then why not allow the officer to search?

Wow! Only in America....:eek: I hope you were joking...

Other way around - it's only in America you would even think of telling an officer "NO" when he asks to search your vehicle on a traffic stop.

hoffmang

09-06-2006, 04:16 PM

There are two easy options.

1. "Officer, I'd love to but my lawyer has made me promise to never consent to a search. I'm sure you'll understand."

2. "Officer, can you tell me again why you've pulled me over?" (Answer his question with a question.)

-Gene

Veritas_223

09-06-2006, 04:21 PM

From my experiance LEOs profile people. They treat people differently base on race, age, income level and general apperance. An older "white" guy that looks like a fireman or LEO would be treated better then a young 20 something person of color with baggy pants in a low rider..If both got pulled over for speeding who would get hassled more for having declared to have a legal AW in transport?

bwiese

09-06-2006, 05:03 PM

"Anything I should know about in this car?"

"No."

jnojr

09-06-2006, 05:13 PM

Sometimes, they might ask a direct question... "Are there any guns in the car?" If you say "Yes", you know what's next... they're going to want to search. You can say "No", figuring it isn't any of their business... but if you left a couple of stray rounds or a magazine or an ammo box or something out, they now (arguably) have "reasonable suspicion". And a very good way to wind up spending more time than you'd like interacting with a few police officers is to be caught in a lie.

So, the question isn't really "are you legally required to answer affirmatively?", but "What are the likely consequences of either response?"

My only suggestion in general would be to try to avoid arousing suspicion.

Oh, and I like the "My lawyer has made me promise to never consent to a search" line. You'll attract more attention with it, but it could be fun :)

Vigilante

09-06-2006, 05:57 PM

If you have nothing to hide then why not allow the officer to search? :p
I also hope that you were joking.

TonyNorCal

09-06-2006, 05:59 PM

Regardless of having your guns legal (and I assume all of us understand and comply with California law) it would seem to me that there is something distasteful about having your car searched or having to present your guns at home for police inspection. This is American afterall.

When I go to the range I do above and beyond what is legally required. I'll have my handguns (unloaded of course) locked in a container. I'll have my ammo locked in it's own container. And for chits and giggles I'll sometimes apply cable locks to the long guns.

I also have my little binder of documents...and the first two up are my California DOJ-issued COE and my Federal C&R. They look official and would hopefully inspire some confidence in even the most paranoid cop.

I'll also sometimes throw my gym bag and running shoes on the front passenger seat. So if you look into the vehicle that's what you see.
Appearances can matter.

Of course, maybe I am paranoid:p

Even though you're fully legal who wants to get into a situation with a cop who doesn't know about off-list stuff? Who wants the hassle and possible confiscation of something the officer is unsure of?

I've never been asked to have my vehicle searched. I also haven't been pulled over for 3 years now. Yes, it pays to be boring and drive responsibly:) .

I did get pulled over frequently when I was in the military (frequent speeding, etc.), but the combination of a buzz-cut and DOD military sticker on my window seemed to work well in ticket avoidance. An Oakland cop even let me go for running a red light right in front of him. And one CHP ended up talking to me about his time in the air force.

So, unfortunately it's true that appearances do matter.

TonyNorCal

09-06-2006, 06:00 PM

oops, double tap

icormba

09-06-2006, 06:02 PM

2 Different totally different scenarios...

1) in the Car:
I'll be totally honest with them since I'd be carrying them in accordance with the law. That's if I had them in the car at that particular time.

2) in the home:
If asked if I had any firearms in my home?
I'd simply ask back... "Are you sure you want to ask me that question?"

I can understand them wanting to know if any firearms are missing, as in a burglary, but they don't need to know which firearms are NOT missing. I'd actually give them a list of firearms missing.

IF any officer wanted to confiscate any of my firearms... I'd offer (more like politely demand) to go with them! I've said that before and I say it again.

bwiese

09-06-2006, 06:02 PM

"There are no illegal items in this vehicle. I do not consent to a search.

Am I under arrest? Am I free to go?"

Reiterate the last two over and over again.

M. Sage

09-06-2006, 06:17 PM

It depends on the situation. If a cop is outside the house and doesn't have a search warrant, why would you go answering all sorts of questions? Funny look would suffice.

In a car, it's a slightly different story. If you've got your rifle in the back seat when you get pulled over for speeding, it might be best to say "hey, I'm on the way home from the range, so yeah, that is a rifle in the back seat." I've been told that's a lot less nerve wracking for both you and the officer, since he'll notice it anyway, and if you're in the open about it, it shows you don't have anything to hide (like the desire to shoot him/her.) It's less nerve-wracking for you, because his rookie partner won't be shoving his pistol in your face when he realizes "OMG! There's a gun in the car!!!!"

Don't laugh, I knew someone who had that happen.

EOD Guy

09-06-2006, 06:32 PM

One thing everyone is ignoring. The California Penal Code allows any LEO to inspect any firearm that you have in your vehicle in order to determine if it is loaded.

bwiese

09-06-2006, 06:38 PM

One thing everyone is ignoring. The California Penal Code allows any LEO to inspect any firearm that you have in your vehicle in order to determine if it is loaded.

Absolutely - *if* he knows it's in there, he can ask to see them and you can't refuse.

You are NOT required to disclose it.

If he asks if there are any firearms or contraband, the answers I and Gene wrote above should suffice.

hoffmang

09-06-2006, 07:05 PM

If an officer says you're being detained then he's arresting you. Most don't want to do the paperwork.

-Gene

hoffmang

09-06-2006, 07:27 PM

If an officer says he's detaining you demand to be arrested. Leaving the officer lots of time to try to come up with something to charge you with is not in your interest. If he is only detaining you to write a ticket, demand your ticket and that the stop end promptly.

You have the right to not be unreasonably seized.

All of this is far after you've been respectful, calm and professional up to this point.

-Gene

Hunter

09-06-2006, 07:33 PM

One thing everyone is ignoring. The California Penal Code allows any LEO to inspect any firearm that you have in your vehicle in order to determine if it is loaded.

Without a warrant or probable cause to search, then they can only check those guns visible to the LEO.

Out hunting, we will get stopped every now and then. On one occasion there were three of us, but only one gun was visible, when we were checked by a rookie and his senior officer as we sat parked on the side of the main road (we had just returned from the field). The rookie officer asked to see that the one visible gun was unloaded, which we did. When that was done, the senior officer said thanks and started to leave. The rookie looked a little surprised and then asked what about checking the other guns? The SO replied "Do you see any in the open?" as he walked back to the patrol car.

It was obvious this was being used as a training exercise for the rookie during the entire encounter with us, and probably the only reason they stopped to check in the first place.

bwiese

09-06-2006, 07:44 PM

To which the officer will reply, "Sir, you are being detained," while he/she writes you out a ticked for whatever infraction you were stopped for.

Fine. Better that he writes me a trumped-up traffic ticket than he starts pulling out and playing around with stuff from my trunk.

I'd hope it'd be raining, though ;)

TonyNorCal

09-06-2006, 07:52 PM

If they come to your house in response to a 'false-positive 911' (whatever that is) they'll be more concerned that everyone is OK in the residence.

False-positive means a positive signal that is erroneous. In regard to a 911 call this would mean a 911 call believed to have orginated from your residence when in fact it did not. It happens.

Dont Tread on Me

09-06-2006, 07:54 PM

Better that he writes me a trumped-up traffic ticket than he starts pulling out and playing around with stuff from my trunk.

+ 1. I'll take the risk of getting the ticket and fighting it latter rather than have a cop rumble through my trunk and taking my legally possession in for "investigation".

hoffmang

09-06-2006, 08:00 PM

I'm not paranoid. I just prefer to remind my public servants that they are here to serve me and not vice versa.

-Gene

bwiese

09-06-2006, 08:03 PM

MRex21,
With a Calgunner here reporting a burglary and loss of registered AW (with reg papers) and the cops treating HIM like the perp, not filling out receipts, etc. it's no wonder we don't trust cops.

Perhaps you're one of the cooler guys out in the sticks.

hoffmang

09-06-2006, 08:08 PM

MRex,

Two questions for you. 1. Are you in Law Enforcement? 2. If so, are you in the Bay Area or outside the Bay Area.

Around here politics dictates policing at a ludicrous level. Outside of here things are far more sane.

-Gene

TonyNorCal

09-06-2006, 08:09 PM

I don't see anything paranoid in this thread. I think that being a gun owner it's important to have thought through various scenarios, understand what your rights and options are, and how you might respond to questions. Then, in the unlikely event it happens you're somewhat prepared. I think this is especially true when it comes to OLL ARs and other off-list rifles that while legally configured may raise questions with an uninformed LEO.

metalhead357

09-06-2006, 08:33 PM

Without a warrant or probable cause to search, then they can only check those guns visible to the LEO.

Nope...
as I said long ago, many posts ago...admitting there is ANY forearm in the car IS grounds for the officer to conduct a check that said weapon (visible or not) is not loaded and being legally and safely transported.

But hey. we all seen it on cops. You say NO, no gun in the car and they find some kind of probable cause to search anyway then you're royally screwed.... I aint EVER seen or heard of anyone that overtly lies to one not taking a trip downtown. But again, if you admit....they CAN search but only for complience of the weapon.

Hey Bill, You keep making posts like that and you might make my Christmas card list again:p To me at least THAT is more liken' to yer' postin':D

Hunter

09-06-2006, 09:17 PM

Nope...
as I said long ago, many posts ago...admitting there is ANY forearm in the car IS grounds for the officer to conduct a check that said weapon (visible or not) is not loaded and being legally and safely transported.......

I agree 100%, as I consider telling them that there is a firearm on board is indeed giving them probable cause.

Kestryll

09-06-2006, 10:38 PM

If they come to your house in response to a 'false-positive 911' (whatever that is) they'll be more concerned that everyone is OK in the residence.

A false positive is what happened to me about 7 years ago in Northridge.
My Wife and I had been living in the house for a bit over a year, it was just the two of us. The Master bedroom faced the front and a window that overlooked the driveway out to the street.
At about 3:00AM the motion sensor light over my driveway came on and flashlights went acroos my window. I looked out and fortunately had my 9mm behind my back, there were two LAPD officers outside looking at me.
They asked if anyone had called 911 and who else was in the house. I told them niether I nor my Wife called 911. They told me they got a call and that the computer gives bad info sometimes, rarely but it happens.

I went through it so I know it happens.

Dont Tread on Me

09-07-2006, 06:10 AM

They told me they got a call and that the computer gives bad info sometimes, rarely but it happens.

The sad thing is there might have been someone who did call 911 and was getting attacked but the computer screw up sent the cops to the wrong house.

JPglee1

09-07-2006, 07:20 AM

The sad thing is there might have been someone who did call 911 and was getting attacked but the computer screw up sent the cops to the wrong house.

Ive had LEO called to my office 3x in the last 3 months... Our fax machine line likes to accidently dial 911 somehow, and then hang up.

So out of the middle of nowhere I get these LEOs popping in the back door all the time "Someone call 911"

Uh..no.

You never know when/where you will have a LEO encounter.

Close encounters of the LEO kind haha.

Oh and I'm not paranoid, I just know that theres a lot of crooked LEO around (and a lot of GOOD ones too, you never know which you'll get) and I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to my rights and LEGALLY possessed rifles.

J

Bishop

09-07-2006, 08:19 AM

Be careful about consenting to searches. An LEO friend told me to never consent to searches only because how often do you take your car apart and put it back together?

Do you search whomever enters your car for drugs that could be accidentally left somewhere in your vehicle? Ever transport legal pills (or vitamins) outside of their bottle? If a cop finds one of those in your car and can't identify it, you've got problems. And lord help you if some loser friend of yours who uses or "was holding it for a friend" accidentally leaves drugs in your car; you can get your car impounded and torn to pieces.

As for probable cause, I'm always sure to keep anything gun related out of the cab of my car (evil looking cases, paper targets, etc).

luvtolean

09-07-2006, 08:56 AM

Been lurking for a while and learned lots of great stuff here, so I'll share on this topic. I am no attorney. But I have friends that are and are also LEO of various forms. Lots of good suggestions here, but I have a couple things to add.

My first suggestion if the cops arrive at your house and knock on the door, IMMEDIATELY step out onto your porch and CLOSE THE DOOR. Try not to act like a tweaker as you do this (raising suspicion), but if you stand there with the door open, if a cop looks around into your house a bit and decides he sees something that doesn't look right, he moves into an area of probable cause. Will it stand up in court? Maybe not, but do you really want to find out? If you have an 03FFL, it is a bit more of a grey area, but they are still supposed to have probable cause. (unless it's the ATF/DOJ wanting to check your book)

On the porch, be polite but inform them nobody goes in unless there's a warrant. I don't know the rules around false 911s....if this happens to you frequently (other than the obvious you need to fix the problem...) you should look into it.

I was pulled over in NorCal (as in north of Sacramento) with shot up targets in plain sight going home from my last final of the semester (which was why I was speeding, hey I had a barbeque to get to!). He asked if I had a gun, and I answered honestly that I didn't. I was in my early 20's in a total POS for a car, and he still didn't search it. If you have a trunk, stow your firearms stuff kids. It's not likely guns will even come up in this case. I was pulled over in my truck a couple of years ago for a stupid infraction in San Jose, and even with an NRA sticker on my truck, was not asked about firearms.

Re paranoia, I rented a small pick up a few years ago that had a problem. I swapped it at SFO for another, where I was going to pick up my Dad. As Dad and I were driving down the freeway, Dad decided to look inside the armrest. Small baggie of white powder! :eek: Can you imagine getting busted for something like that?

If you want to keep the cops out of your car, you also need to make sure you don't have burned CDs in plain view. You might have legally burned copies of music you own, but cops do use this as evidence of illegal material in your car, and can search it. (this applies to your house too, but it should never matter as you're on the porch with the door closed as you talk...right?)

If you can reasonably avoid a search, you really should. Most attorneys and LEO will tell you, somewhat derisively, that people oftentimes talk themself right into jail.

JCG

09-07-2006, 09:04 AM

Ok, I am speaking from personal experience here. I can't give alot of details since the case is on going.

First of all, there are certain situations where you have NO CHOICE in allowing the police in and disclosing firearms ownership. If one is accused of assualt or domestic violence for example

Second of all, any of you that say "my guns are all legal, so I am not worried", well excuse the sarcasm but do you still believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus? You can all come to court with me next week to see my case on LEGAL guns I own, didn't stop the DA from filing multuple felony charges against me, didn't stop me from spending a few days in Jail, and has cost me 18k in legal fees to date.........

BTW in case anyone is wondering the assualt and battery charge was dropped days after my arrest due to the DA saying the supposed victims story was so bogus that he wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Just my 2 cents

metalhead357

09-07-2006, 09:17 AM

First of all, there are certain situations where you have NO CHOICE in allowing the police in and disclosing firearms ownership. If one is accused of assualt or domestic violence for example

Hmmmmm.
Reseanable expectation of privacy,
Without warrant
Probable cause,
Injunction,
Lawyer up,
5th amednment protection against self incrimination
Miranda 'rights'.....

All some phrases that came to mind when I read that. There ARE choices...but EVERY choice has a consequence, some good, some not so much so.

You do NOT have to disclose firearm ownership unless complled to do so by a court order. Even then you can still say no; might face some fines or jail time, but you still have choices....................

ETD1010

09-07-2006, 09:39 AM

I've always told myself, since I have a truck, and no trunk, I would definetley feel most comfortable telling an officer that those ARE indeed guns behind me. I dont' want him thinking I'm hiding something, plus, I"d be a bit nervous anyway since I've never been pulled over with guns in the car. I know I may have a right NOT to disclose that information, but it would make me feel better knowing that The officer is aware that I"m being upfront about it. I may not AGREE with the treatment some officers give younger people, but it happens, and I'd like to avoid a situation.

xrMike

09-07-2006, 11:24 AM

If you have nothing to hide then why not allow the officer to search? :pWell, because the highest law in the land, the U.S. Constitution, protects all U.S. citizens against unreasonable search and seizure?

Veritas_223

09-07-2006, 11:54 AM

When my brother was just out of highschool he spent a night in Fremont's jail because he allowed a LEO to search his car. He and some friends were crusing Fremont Blvd on a Saturday night and got pulled over by the police. His car fit the description of a car reported for speed contest..The cops asked to search his car for booze..Like an idiot he allowed them to..In his trunk was his martial arts backpack with his Gi, boxing gloves and a set of nunchaku.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunchaku

He was arrested and spent a night in jail. During the arrest they treated him like he was a terrorist. Charges were never filed by the DA but my parents had to post bail..

Just say no!

:)