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swift
09-04-2006, 8:07 PM
I did a search and couldn't find the answer, so here goes:

What grade C&R rifle do you buy if you're planning to shoot it? I see field grade, collector grade, and shooter grade. Naturally I'm drawn to the collector grade, but is it worth it if I'm going to shoot hundreds of rounds through it a year?

Also, what C&R site has 'sniper' rifles? I'm interested in accurate, old rifles. What do you recommend that priced up to$500? Is this unreasonably low?

Thanks a lot.

xenophobe
09-04-2006, 8:24 PM
I generally only buy collector grade C&Rs. They generally have better bores, are much smoother in operation, and better for resale value.

I refuse to buy from Big5's garbage selections... you can luck out with a nice score, but usually you need to handselect from a handful to get a good one.

Pthfndr
09-04-2006, 9:35 PM
There are no "official" standards for the "grades" you list.

EXCEPT for the CMP. But the CMP tells you exactly what those terms mean.

The majority of distributors, vendors, collectors, and knowledgable shops will use the NRA grading system.

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good (VG), Fine, Excellent, and Unissued.

You should familiarize yourself with those terms and exactly how they're applied. A rifle from the 1600s can look like crap and still be considered "excellent", whereas a rifle from the 50s can look almost new and only be graded "good". The age has a lot to do with it.

But like Xenophobe says, something that some would consider a "collector grade" would have more value, and likely be in better condition.

You want something to shoot hundreds of rounds through? Find one with a decent bore and good headspace. That is a step in the right direction.

TonyNorCal
09-04-2006, 9:50 PM
It depends what you mean by sniper grade accuracy. Military surplus rifles, even in superb shape, are not going to outshoot a modern varmint rifles.

Also, it depends what ammo you intend to use. If you're going to purchase bulk military surplus ammo you're obviously not going to have the accuracy of modern match grade ammo.

You could go with a Swiss K-31. I haven't shot one, but all accounts are that accuracy across the board is about as good as it gets for a general issue military surplus rifle. Unfortunately, the ammunition is more expensive than say 7.62x54r (Mosin). But it's higher quality.

You could also go with a Finnish Mosin. Most (meaning not all) Finn Mosins are superior to their Russian counterparts. And, you can take advantage of less expensive ammo. Of course, less expensive ammo may or may not give you the results you desire.

Both of the above are well within your price range. And you'd have funds left for ammo.

This is a good board on which to search and ask questions.

www.gunboards.com - they have an active trader section and a benefit here is sellers often have shot the rifles they're selling...so you can benefit from some firsthand knowledge.

SVT_Fox
09-05-2006, 12:08 PM
m91/30s can be "sniper", plus they are usually around 100 bucks for a nice shooter...

tankerman
09-05-2006, 12:17 PM
There are no "official" standards for the "grades" you list.

EXCEPT for the CMP. But the CMP tells you exactly what those terms mean.

The majority of distributors, vendors, collectors, and knowledgable shops will use the NRA grading system.

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good (VG), Fine, Excellent, and Unissued.

You should familiarize yourself with those terms and exactly how they're applied. A rifle from the 1600s can look like crap and still be considered "excellent", whereas a rifle from the 50s can look almost new and only be graded "good". The age has a lot to do with it.

But like Xenophobe says, something that some would consider a "collector grade" would have more value, and likely be in better condition.

You want something to shoot hundreds of rounds through? Find one with a decent bore and good headspace. That is a step in the right direction.
CMP kind of tells you exactly what you are going to get. I have seen lower grade stuff look better than higher grade rifles. My wife is a VET and when ever she orders I swear they always send her high grade rifles regardless of what grade she ordered. I bought one rifle from BIG 5 a very choice K31, most of the rest I have seen is garbage.

swift
09-05-2006, 7:13 PM
To clarify, I'm not looking for a varmint rifle. I'm just looking for a sub-MOA rifle. I was considering the K31. Since I reload, as long as there are cases and bullets available, I'll be fine.

Thanks for the tip on the gunboard, TonyNorCal. I'll check it out.

It depends what you mean by sniper grade accuracy. Military surplus rifles, even in superb shape, are not going to outshoot a modern varmint rifles.

Also, it depends what ammo you intend to use. If you're going to purchase bulk military surplus ammo you're obviously not going to have the accuracy of modern match grade ammo.

You could go with a Swiss K-31. I haven't shot one, but all accounts are that accuracy across the board is about as good as it gets for a general issue military surplus rifle. Unfortunately, the ammunition is more expensive than say 7.62x54r (Mosin). But it's higher quality.

You could also go with a Finnish Mosin. Most (meaning not all) Finn Mosins are superior to their Russian counterparts. And, you can take advantage of less expensive ammo. Of course, less expensive ammo may or may not give you the results you desire.

Both of the above are well within your price range. And you'd have funds left for ammo.

This is a good board on which to search and ask questions.

www.gunboards.com - they have an active trader section and a benefit here is sellers often have shot the rifles they're selling...so you can benefit from some firsthand knowledge.

Whitesmoke
09-06-2006, 4:03 AM
No offense...but I really, really, really doubt you will find a sub-moa surplus rifle of any make.......especially for under $100. A really accurate surplus rifle would be in the 2-2.5" MOA range.....IMHO....even with handloads.

metalhead357
09-06-2006, 5:57 AM
But then again... you might get lucky. I dunno about the 1903's but the 1903A3's seem to be reasonable accurate and IIRC were the platform for the A4 used by snipers. CMP is out of the 03A3's but they can still be found~trhough that figure of your might need to raised to about $600.

One mosin I have seems very capable of Sub MOA, but then again it is only one of several that I've gone through.

Big 5 is a great source for used stuff IFFFFFFFF you're willing to just say no to crap and wade through several shipments over time. Gotta be willing to walk out and come back again later when the 'bad' have cycled through and the store gets a new shipment.

swift
09-06-2006, 6:06 AM
No offense...but I really, really, really doubt you will find a sub-moa surplus rifle of any make.......especially for under $100. A really accurate surplus rifle would be in the 2-2.5" MOA range.....IMHO....even with handloads.


No offense taken. I wanted to clarify what I was hoping to get and my price range. If 2 -2.5 MOA is the most accurate rifle I can get within my limit, then at least I know what to expect. What I was looking for was information like this and like what metalhead wrote, that for $600 I may be able to get a pretty accurate C&R rifle.

metalhead357
09-06-2006, 6:27 AM
YOUR money! But FWIW- $600 would be my personal most for any C&R rifle. There are just simply tooooo many that are 'resonable' accuracy.

I have no direct knowlege of the k31 so I cant talk about them. But seriusly, there are about 100 C&R models that could flip tha' bill of what you might be looking for. I can just say I'm pretty partial to the Mosin's for $85!!!!!!!!!

One heck of a rifle for cheap. Just gotta jump when ya' find the ones with a clean/clear barrel and a good crown; forget the matching numbers, and forget about the prettyness of the wood, if accuracy is what you're after ya' gotta look at the crown and barrel. You could/can always do a poor man's bedding job too on crappy wood to tune the rifle up & no big loss if it doent turn out perfect on a $85 gun LOL!!!!!!

But dont take my word...look around, maybe check out the BATF list of what is C&R eligible.

xenophobe
09-06-2006, 8:58 AM
Also, what C&R site has 'sniper' rifles? I'm interested in accurate, old rifles.

http://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles.html#sm41b

Swedish M41B Sniper Rifle, Cal. 6.5 X 55