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View Full Version : SF hollowpoint restriction?


Andy Taylor
02-03-2011, 4:35 PM
I've heard that the city of SF has banned hollowpoints.
I will soon have a CA CCW and I sometimes visit that beautiful, although woefully misguided, city.

Do I need to switch out my carry ammo in my CCW to something that is either less effective or more likely to overpenetrate an attacker, and thereby be more of a hazzard to the general public, or both, when I visit?

Ding126
02-03-2011, 4:43 PM
Haven't heard that one...hmm....IF true,,buy ammo / hornady ammo w/ balistic tips..which is a hollow point with a plastic tip... problem solved.

http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun

Backcountry
02-03-2011, 4:45 PM
FUD... use whatever ammo you want in SF.

MontClaire
02-03-2011, 4:52 PM
:fud:

drewg13
02-03-2011, 5:01 PM
I've heard that the city of SF has banned hollowpoints.
I will soon have a CA CCW and I sometimes visit that beautiful, although woefully misguided, city.

Do I need to switch out my carry ammo in my CCW to something that is either less effective or more likely to overpenetrate an attacker, and thereby be more of a hazzard to the general public, or both, when I visit?

Where did you hear this?

707electrician
02-03-2011, 5:15 PM
Where did you hear this?

Yeah, I too want to know where you heard that SF is a beautiful city :D

stix213
02-03-2011, 5:21 PM
Not illegal to own but illegal to sell. I'm sure this is the "ban" law you heard about. You should be good to carry HP's.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/14140/level1/ART9MICORE.html#ART9MICORE_S613.10LION


The licensee shall not sell, lease or otherwise transfer to any person any ammunition that:
(1)
Serves no sporting purpose;
(2)
Is designed to expand upon impact and utilize the jacket, shot or materials embedded within the jacket or shot to project or disperse barbs or other objects that are intended to increase the damage to a human body or other target (including, but not limited to, Winchester Black Talon, Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra-Shok, Hornady XTP, Eldorado Starfire, Hollow Point Ammunition and Remington Golden Sabre ammunition; or
(3)
Is designed to fragment upon impact (including, but not limited to, Black Rhino bullets and Glaser Safety Slugs).


LEO are exempt of course.

paul0660
02-03-2011, 5:23 PM
It would be in article 9 here, it isn't.

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=14140&stateId=5&stateName=California

stix213
02-03-2011, 5:27 PM
It would be in article 9 here, it isn't.

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=14140&stateId=5&stateName=California

No its there, I linked to it above. Article 9 SEC. 613.10.

It seems ripe to be thrown out though, since how can they restrict ammo sales to only sporting purpose ammo when the 2A is about self defense, not sporting purposes.

paul0660
02-03-2011, 5:35 PM
Andy wants to know about carrying it, that section applies only to a dealer selling it.

Duh, I didn't read carefully, sorry to repeat you, stix.

Mssr. Eleganté
02-03-2011, 8:03 PM
The NRA and friends are working on it...


http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Jackson_v._San_Francisco

oni.dori
02-03-2011, 9:26 PM
It seems ripe to be thrown out though, since how can they restrict ammo sales to only sporting purpose ammo when the 2A is about self defense, not sporting purposes.

The same reason that they only allow "sporting rifles" to be imported now. It doesn't matter what the Supreme Law of the Land (ie. Constitution) says, they just do whatever the #$%^ they want because they think that no one can stop them.

Code7inOaktown
02-03-2011, 9:50 PM
Oy. Only in San Francisco would they write a law that the end result would be increased dangers due to over penetration issues and lack of stopping power.

It is a beautiful city though -- unless you have a car and have to drive through it.

Jack L
02-04-2011, 5:22 AM
Oy. Only in San Francisco would they write a law that the end result would be increased dangers due to over penetration issues and lack of stopping power.

It is a beautiful city though -- unless you have a car and have to drive through it.

A classic case of they have no idea what they are banning. If it's related to a gun, it must be bad. It sounds bad, those nasty hollow points. They do not even know what they are designed for.

cineski
02-04-2011, 6:07 AM
Just like banning 50BMG because all those gang bangers are using it.

cadurand
02-04-2011, 6:48 AM
A classic case of they have no idea what they are banning. If it's related to a gun, it must be bad. It sounds bad, those nasty hollow points. They do not even know what they are designed for.Oh I think they know what they are banning.

It's the good old divide and conquer technique. First ban self defense ammo but leave the hunting and target practive ammo alone to keep the hunters happy.

Then you go after the rest of the ammo.

Jack L
02-04-2011, 7:01 AM
Oh I think they know what they are banning.

It's the good old divide and conquer technique. First ban self defense ammo but leave the hunting and target practive ammo alone to keep the hunters happy.

Then you go after the rest of the ammo.


You are correct.. AB124 comes along and bans hunting ammo.

Next will pellet ammo and BB's.

I think the pro gun groups will have to recruit more of 'us' and become as powerful as the republican party. The momentum needs to steam roller the liberal anti politicians into the ground.

So far it's looking good with sites like Calguns gaining nation interest. No time to waste. I write a letter to politicians once a day. I hope they read them. Sometimes I get a robo answer sometimes no answer.

I use to be very particular who I voted for. Now I vote for pro gun politicians first above most all else. It's getting down to the wire. Now is the time to charge the situation head on.

Wherryj
02-04-2011, 7:55 AM
Not illegal to own but illegal to sell. I'm sure this is the "ban" law you heard about. You should be good to carry HP's.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/14140/level1/ART9MICORE.html#ART9MICORE_S613.10LION



LEO are exempt of course.

Woah! How can SF ban Glasers? They're SAFETY slugs. It says it on the package. Is SF interested in handgun SAFETY or not?

:p

ken worth
02-04-2011, 8:44 AM
every think in Frisco is illegal except things that should be illegal. Whats this beutifull city stuff? san francisco is a sewer. I don't know why anyone would want to be any where near it. If you want wierd just turn on the TV its cheaper.

QuarterBoreGunner
02-04-2011, 8:49 AM
every think in Frisco is illegal except things that should be illegal. Whats this beutifull city stuff? san francisco is a sewer. I don't know why anyone would want to be any where near it. If you want wierd just turn on the TV its cheaper.

Thanks for the enlightened, informative and well thought out post there Ken.

But, you might want to re-think those words, as some of us live and work there. For some of us, it's our home town, and a few of us have parents and relatives that still live there.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you might want to spew your hatred somewhere else.

We now return you to your thread, already in progress.

rips31
02-04-2011, 9:38 AM
ken, you obviously didn't watch all of the television coverage during the world series or any of the movies/tv shows that film here.

as for it being a sewer, that's your opinion. i've seen plenty of esseff sewers and its treatment plants and the city looks nothing like that. :rolleyes:

every think in Frisco is illegal except things that should be illegal. Whats this beutifull city stuff? san francisco is a sewer. I don't know why anyone would want to be any where near it. If you want wierd just turn on the TV its cheaper.

Jack L
02-04-2011, 9:55 AM
Loved the city since the first time my parents took me there in the mid 50's. It had a cool early jazz scene, the beat generation link, the wild a** mid to late rock music and few wanted to buy down at Ocean Beach so the real estate was affordable then. Lots has changed. It's just not a firearms friendly city even for LE. No tasers allowed for LE.

burl broderick
02-04-2011, 10:28 AM
"The licensee shall not sell, lease or otherwise transfer to any person any ammunition that:
(1)
Serves no sporting purpose;"

Hollowpoints make shooting pumpkins and watermelons much sportier.
Who doesn't know that ?
Problem solved.

.

sfbadger
02-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the enlightened, informative and well thought out post there Ken.

But, you might want to re-think those words, as some of us live and work there. For some of us, it's our home town, and a few of us have parents and relatives that still live there.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you might want to spew your hatred somewhere else.

We now return you to your thread, already in progress.

+1. Well stated!

Glock22Fan
02-04-2011, 11:42 AM
Oy. Only in San Francisco would they write a law that the end result would be increased dangers due to over penetration issues and lack of stopping power.

It is a beautiful city though -- unless you have a car and have to drive through it.

The lack of stopping power results in the shootee getting more holes in him/her as a result, leading to more work required from the surgeon to save their lives.

It's easier to clean up fewer large cavity wounds than a larger number of deeper, narrower wounds.

oni.dori
02-04-2011, 12:31 PM
You are absolutely right. The political mentality, especially pertaining to firearms/self defense/2A rights is changing, and how; and now, it is starting to trickle over here in to California. Look how close the last set of elections were here? The freedom hating, commie anti's BARELY won by a VERY thin margin (in most, and the most important cases). That is a HUGE change from even as little as the elections right before that. People are waking up and realizing that these people are doing nothing but stealing and destroying our civil liberties and freedoms and destroying our once great and beautiful state, sinking it in to a corrupt, mismanaged, debt ridden, cesspool of criminal paradise. And all in the guise of "safety" and "equality", when in reality, the only thing they want to keep "safe" is their cushy stranglehold on power.

[QUOTE=Glock22Fan;5752210]The lack of stopping power results in the shootee getting more holes in him/her as a result, leading to more work required from the surgeon to save their lives.

It's easier to clean up fewer large cavity wounds than a larger number of deeper, narrower wounds.

I would hesitate to call it "stopping power"; but yes, you are correct, a "piercing" wound is always much harder to "contain" and repair than a larger wound. In the end, they are doing nothing but causing he undue torture and suffering of a slow, drawn out, and painful death of a likely not-so innocent victim. But as was stated before, it is all a reuse to slowly whittle away at individual freedoms in such small portions that people either won't notice, or just aren't concerned enough to do anything about.
Personally, I still blame the hippies. Nothing like this ever happened there before they polluted the area.

Pig Rifle
02-04-2011, 1:14 PM
A classic case of they have no idea what they are banning. If it's related to a gun, it must be bad. It sounds bad, those nasty hollow points. They do not even know what they are designed for.

Aren't those the high-powered cop-killing bullets? :rolleyes:

oni.dori
02-04-2011, 3:40 PM
Of course they are, the ones that are designed NOT to co through bullet resistant vests are MORE deadly than AP ones, because they leave a bigger hole and emergency medical personnel get AIDS from them.

ccwtrainer
02-05-2011, 7:50 PM
I use to be very particular who I voted for. Now I vote for pro gun politicians first above most all else ...

+1 for me. There should be a ban on politicians' ability to ban anything to do with firearms!

On another note, I always ask people on the other side of things, as I'm engaged in debate with them, "What formal education do you have on the subject matter?" I then wait for the excuses for their ignorance and I politely suggest, "Would you approach any other subject matter with such a strong opinion and so little education?"

Jack L
02-06-2011, 6:18 AM
+1 for me. There should be a ban on politicians' ability to ban anything to do with firearms!

On another note, I always ask people on the other side of things, as I'm engaged in debate with them, "What formal education do you have on the subject matter?" I then wait for the excuses for their ignorance and I politely suggest, "Would you approach any other subject matter with such a strong opinion and so little education?"

Wise, smart, a good way to make them hopefully think before they speak.

tboyer
02-06-2011, 8:20 AM
I was present at the hearing and testified against banning the
sale of hollow points in San Francisco.
My statement was such:

Law Enforcement use hollow point bullets for two reasons
1) Being more affective at stopping a deadly threat, than
a non hollow point.

2) Being less likely to over penetrate, potentially harming an
innocent victim.


Banning hollow point bullets, could open San Francisco
to law suits, for the following reasons

a) Some one uses a non expanding bullet in a defensive shooting,
and it over penetrates injuring a roommate, (many have roommates in SF)
The city is then sued because they had banned the sale of hollow points
in the city, and because many San Franciscans don't have a car, it's
some what of a hardship to obtain hollow point ammunition,

b) If hollow point bullets or so inhuman that the sale of them are
banned, then might that open law enforcement to excessive force litigation
for using hollow points?



Law enforcement present at the hearing affirmed my statements.

Bevan Dufty who was chairing the hearing, response was to
ask representatives from LCAV, that it was his understanding
they would take pro bono any litigation that comes from this
legislation.

In the hearing a number of ant-firearm laws were passed.
At one point Bevan pointed to a picture of a Barrett 50 BMG,
and exclaimed is that the "S&W 500 Hand Gun? "

Brevan seems to not be able to judge between "short" and "long"
He needs to watch sesame street.
One would think a gay man would know the difference between
"short and long" ;-)

Brevan also exclaimed "caliber, caliber, what's a caliber" ?

Brevan closed the hearing by commenting that he was never so
sadden than when a youth identified the handgun of a peace officer.

Brevan of course had law enforcement affirm that hollow point bullets are
important from a public safety stand point, but he doesn't care.
What is important to Brevan, is his hate of firearms and firearms owners.
Twice he has stated to me, that if he could he would confiscate all privately
owned firearms in this country.

That's right, no hunting, no target, no nothing.

I suspect Brevan Dufty will make it to Sacramento.









I've heard that the city of SF has banned hollowpoints.
I will soon have a CA CCW and I sometimes visit that beautiful, although woefully misguided, city.

Do I need to switch out my carry ammo in my CCW to something that is either less effective or more likely to overpenetrate an attacker, and thereby be more of a hazzard to the general public, or both, when I visit?

homerm14
02-06-2011, 8:42 AM
Just want to point out to some, before they jump to conclusions regarding SF that it is a transplant city. The majority of native San Franciscans are not as liberal as one might think. New people move there every year from all over the state and country to escape from what they feel is repression. Generally they stay for a few years, get married, have kids, and then leave. While they are here they vote liberally and think they are saving the world. I lived there for years and still work there employed by the city. It truly is a beautiful city if you know where to go and how to wade above the BS. As far as the crazy politics go, look to the people who are voting not the city as a whole. That being said maybe someone can correct me where I'm wrong but I am unaware of anyone ever being prosecuted in SF for having hollow point ammunition.

CSACANNONEER
02-06-2011, 8:58 AM
Just want to point out to some, before they jump to conclusions regarding SF that it is a transplant city. The majority of native San Franciscans are not as liberal as one might think. New people move there every year from all over the state and country to escape from what they feel is repression. Generally they stay for a few years, get married, have kids, and then leave. While they are here they vote liberally and think they are saving the world. I lived there for years and still work there employed by the city. It truly is a beautiful city if you know where to go and how to wade above the BS. As far as the crazy politics go, look to the people who are voting not the city as a whole. That being said maybe someone can correct me where I'm wrong but I am unaware of anyone ever being prosecuted in SF for having hollow point ammunition.

This is the major problem with the city and most of California too! I wish we could pass some sort of law making it mandatory that all politicians be native born Californians and all voters must be too. It would sure change change our whole political atmoshphere here.

rips31
02-06-2011, 9:08 AM
i think he'll make it to room 200 first. then, he'll be in sacramento in 8.

he's actually a pretty decent moderate, 2a matters excepted.

<snip>

I suspect Brevan Dufty will make it to Sacramento.

Glock22Fan
02-06-2011, 3:20 PM
i think he'll make it to room 200 first. then, he'll be in sacramento in 8.

he's actually a pretty decent moderate, 2a matters excepted.


This could be why some of us, including myself, vote Second Amendment first and last. Frankly, he could be Mother Theresa and I wouldn't vote for him if he is as rabidly anti-gun as he appears to be.

InGrAM
02-06-2011, 11:02 PM
You are correct.. AB124 comes along and bans hunting ammo.

Next will pellet ammo and BB's.

I think the pro gun groups will have to recruit more of 'us' and become as powerful as the republican party. The momentum needs to steam roller the liberal anti politicians into the ground.

So far it's looking good with sites like Calguns gaining nation interest. No time to waste. I write a letter to politicians once a day. I hope they read them. Sometimes I get a robo answer sometimes no answer.

I use to be very particular who I voted for. Now I vote for pro gun politicians first above most all else. It's getting down to the wire. Now is the time to charge the situation head on.

amen. Vote for people that wont take your rights away.

tboyer
02-07-2011, 8:40 AM
I would also like to point out that Brevan Dufty, was one of the
five San Francisco Supervisors that signed on to the
San Francisco handgun ban, a ban that had no grandfather clause,



I was present at the hearing and testified against banning the
sale of hollow points in San Francisco.
My statement was such:

Law Enforcement use hollow point bullets for two reasons
1) Being more affective at stopping a deadly threat, than
a non hollow point.

2) Being less likely to over penetrate, potentially harming an
innocent victim.


Banning hollow point bullets, could open San Francisco
to law suits, for the following reasons

a) Some one uses a non expanding bullet in a defensive shooting,
and it over penetrates injuring a roommate, (many have roommates in SF)
The city is then sued because they had banned the sale of hollow points
in the city, and because many San Franciscans don't have a car, it's
some what of a hardship to obtain hollow point ammunition,

b) If hollow point bullets or so inhuman that the sale of them are
banned, then might that open law enforcement to excessive force litigation
for using hollow points?



Law enforcement present at the hearing affirmed my statements.

Bevan Dufty who was chairing the hearing, response was to
ask representatives from LCAV, that it was his understanding
they would take pro bono any litigation that comes from this
legislation.

In the hearing a number of ant-firearm laws were passed.
At one point Bevan pointed to a picture of a Barrett 50 BMG,
and exclaimed is that the "S&W 500 Hand Gun? "

Brevan seems to not be able to judge between "short" and "long"
He needs to watch sesame street.
One would think a gay man would know the difference between
"short and long" ;-)

Brevan also exclaimed "caliber, caliber, what's a caliber" ?

Brevan closed the hearing by commenting that he was never so
sadden than when a youth identified the handgun of a peace officer.

Brevan of course had law enforcement affirm that hollow point bullets are
important from a public safety stand point, but he doesn't care.
What is important to Brevan, is his hate of firearms and firearms owners.
Twice he has stated to me, that if he could he would confiscate all privately
owned firearms in this country.

That's right, no hunting, no target, no nothing.

I suspect Brevan Dufty will make it to Sacramento.

rips31
02-07-2011, 9:48 AM
unfortunately, san franciscans don't have the luxury of voting 2a first/last.

if the candidates are all anti-2a, that can be remedied by judicial action, especially with all of the recent scotus cases. however, a moderate >> liberal, as the san francisco can't afford any more unfunded social programs that cater to non-profits/advocacy groups (e.g. homeless/bicycle/lgbt/green/etc).

if you lived in san francisco, you would realize that voting isn't black/white, but nuanced shades of grey.

This could be why some of us, including myself, vote Second Amendment first and last. Frankly, he could be Mother Theresa and I wouldn't vote for him if he is as rabidly anti-gun as he appears to be.