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LMT4ME
02-02-2011, 8:20 PM
Ok so I apologize if this has been posted before. Blame it on the less than adequate Calguns search engine (search for single shot in this forum displays hundreds of posts that have nothing to do with this question).

Question: if I buy a single shot pistol with long barrel and mod to limit mag removal, then I replace long barrel with stock and modify to allow semi auto (multiple) shot operation - do I have to notify Ca DOJ about the mod?

Ordnance1
02-02-2011, 8:27 PM
No. Not required. It is no different than if you changed the grips from wood to polymer. In fact, I would't even try asking DOJ cause you'll just get FUD in return.

Saym14
02-02-2011, 8:39 PM
Ok so I apologize if this has been posted before. Blame it on the less than adequate Calguns search engine (search for single shot in this forum displays hundreds of posts that have nothing to do with this question).

Question: if I buy a single shot pistol with long barrel and mod to limit mag removal, then I replace long barrel with stock and modify to allow semi auto (multiple) shot operation - do I have to notify Ca DOJ about the mod?

no. also try advanced search and search in title only - you will find these answers.

Mimi_T
02-02-2011, 11:20 PM
Sorry to jump into someone else's thread to ask this, but I have a question related to this also.

I did use the search and find the thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692), but I remain confused about something:

If I want, say, an HK45, which is not on the roster, am I supposed to go to a shop and order it as is, then get it converted prior to me DROSing it, or am I supposed to get it converted already before its entry in the state?

I asked a local store that does single-shot conversions if they could order the gun for me and they told me no unless I'm a LEO or it's already converted, so it got me confused. (Especially considering they carry several guns they convert back to semi-auto. I'm wondering if maybe they do some brands and not others? Or maybe they have to get to know you and until then they just say "no"?)

Saym14
02-03-2011, 5:55 AM
it must be converted before it enters the State.

jtmkinsd
02-03-2011, 8:01 AM
it must be converted before it enters the State.

Incorrect. The firearm would have to be ordered by an 07 FFL (manufacturer) and they could do the modification to the firearm, then ship to your FFL (presumably an 01 FFL) for sale to you. An 01 FFL cannot make modifications such as these and then resell the gun as that is deemed "manufacturing" by ATF. Once you have bought the gun and taken possession of it, you could then turn around and have the 01 FFL convert it back to it's original state, because they are not selling you the firearm, they are merely offering gunsmithing services on a firearm you own.

Ordnance1
02-03-2011, 8:01 AM
Yes, correct in theory. However, an 07 FFL can bring an unconverted model into the state as is, ie. sale to LE. There is nothing to prevent the FFL who now legitimately has the gun in the state from making the single shot conversion and then selling to an ordinary person as a single shot pistol.

jtmkinsd
02-03-2011, 8:38 AM
Yes, correct in theory. However, an 07 FFL can bring an unconverted model into the state as is, ie. sale to LE. There is nothing to prevent the FFL who now legitimately has the gun in the state from making the single shot conversion and then selling to an ordinary person as a single shot pistol.

Any dealer can bring the firearm into the State, however only 07's can make the mod for resale to non-roster-exempt individuals.

Mimi_T
02-03-2011, 3:31 PM
So I need to find a 07 FFL to get the gun modified before it can be legally sold to me then, since I'm not LE. Now it's more clear, thank you! :)

And I'm guessing RifleGear is a 01 FFL instead of a 07 FFL then?

GP3
02-03-2011, 3:33 PM
Mimi t. Contact Table Rock Arms. I think they have your conversion. Rifle Gear accepts Single shot pistols with the barrel/single shot mag.

http://www.tablerockarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=60

Table Rock Arms
02-03-2011, 8:17 PM
Mimi t. Contact Table Rock Arms. I think they have your conversion. Rifle Gear accepts Single shot pistols with the barrel/single shot mag.

http://www.tablerockarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=60

I have the parts, and I have sent a HK45 to Riflegear. At present, I only have one set of parts for the HK45 however and I have a couple people in line so you would be about a month out unless someone backs out. I am looking to add another set of parts for the HK45 as it is one of the more popular requests I get. However I have been having some problems with my mill (the biggest problem being that is is a POS). I ordered a new mill today which I should have in a few weeks and I should have more parts available after that.

Ryan

Mimi_T
02-03-2011, 9:37 PM
I have the parts, and I have sent a HK45 to Riflegear. At present, I only have one set of parts for the HK45 however and I have a couple people in line so you would be about a month out unless someone backs out. I am looking to add another set of parts for the HK45 as it is one of the more popular requests I get. However I have been having some problems with my mill (the biggest problem being that is is a POS). I ordered a new mill today which I should have in a few weeks and I should have more parts available after that.

Ryan

This thread is awesome!! :D I never expected it to deliver like this, and so quickly, wow. Thank you everybody!

If by then it's still for the $1050 price mentioned in your site, do please add me to the wait list, I'll be glad to buy one from you as soon as you can convert one for me. :D

franklinarmory
02-04-2011, 6:46 AM
I still don't see any reason why an 01/FFL couldn't have a person pay for the firearm and, prior to DROS, perform customer requested modifications so that it would be legal. Gunsmiths can change barrels all the time for customers under an 01/FFL, and couldn't a customer ask a dealer to install a new custom barrel on a Remington 700 before he takes possession of it???

The catch here is that an 01/FFL cannot pre-build the pistol for the customer. THAT would be manufacturing. That being said, I have mentioned this before with other folks disagreeing with me. I'm an 07/FFL, so I really don't have to worry. Just a thought for others though....

bwiese
02-04-2011, 9:00 AM
I still don't see any reason why an 01/FFL couldn't have a person pay for the firearm and, prior to DROS, perform customer requested modifications so that it would be legal. Gunsmiths can change barrels all the time for customers under an 01/FFL, and couldn't a customer ask a dealer to install a new custom barrel on a Remington 700 before he takes possession of it???

The catch here is that an 01/FFL cannot pre-build the pistol for the customer. THAT would be manufacturing. That being said, I have mentioned this before with other folks disagreeing with me. I'm an 07/FFL, so I really don't have to worry. Just a thought for others though....


01FFLs doing major mods to inventoried guns have incurred the 'manufacturing' wrath of the ATF - major changes like barrel, slides etc. Conversion to/from of some major operational characteristic (single shot/repeater, repeater/semiauto, single action revolver/double action revolver, rimfire/centerfire) all are substantive enough to fall under this window. 1911 'smiths building up race guns from base guns or old guns they purchased (not even frames) got dinged for this a few years back, to some controversy in gunnie news.

Now, note that an 01FFL *CAN* do such mods on a CUSTOMER'S gun when the customer brings it in. The above doesn't play into this and only
reflects inventoried guns not yet the customer's. (There could be a legal argument, perhaps, that the gun in 10 day wait is really the customer's.)

In fact, that 01FFL could - after DROS, 10day wait, and delivery to customer (i.e, after he walks out the door and back in with it) take a single-shot and restore more normal nonAW functionality.

franklinarmory
02-04-2011, 9:12 AM
Now, note that an 01FFL *CAN* do such mods on a CUSTOMER'S gun when the customer brings it in. The above doesn't play into this and only reflects inventoried guns not yet the customer's. (There could be a legal argument, perhaps, that the gun in 10 day wait is really the customer's.)

That is part of my argument. Just because a customer pays for their firearm, it does not mean it has to be immediately DROSed. It seem to me that a dealer could do the following.

Step one collect money for the firearm.
Step two, the dealer performs customer demanded modifications. Please note that this is different than making the modifications PRIOR to the sale.
Step three, the customer fills out the DROS paperwork, and because the firearm is now in a Ca legal configuration, it will now be legal to process the paperwork.
Step four, the customer waits till the tenth day plus one minute to pick up his new single shot pistol. What the customer decides to do with the firearm after that is his/her responsibility.

Saym14
02-04-2011, 12:43 PM
Incorrect. The firearm would have to be ordered by an 07 FFL (manufacturer) and they could do the modification to the firearm, then ship to your FFL (presumably an 01 FFL) for sale to you. An 01 FFL cannot make modifications such as these and then resell the gun as that is deemed "manufacturing" by ATF. Once you have bought the gun and taken possession of it, you could then turn around and have the 01 FFL convert it back to it's original state, because they are not selling you the firearm, they are merely offering gunsmithing services on a firearm you own.

sorry - I was not aware of the 007 designation.

bwiese
02-04-2011, 2:03 PM
That is part of my argument. Just because a customer pays for their firearm, it does not mean it has to be immediately DROSed. It seem to me that a dealer could do the following.

Step one collect money for the firearm.
Step two, the dealer performs customer demanded modifications. Please note that this is different than making the modifications PRIOR to the sale.
Step three, the customer fills out the DROS paperwork, and because the firearm is now in a Ca legal configuration, it will now be legal to process the paperwork.
Step four, the customer waits till the tenth day plus one minute to pick up his new single shot pistol. What the customer decides to do with the firearm after that is his/her responsibility.

For that argument to be useful and eligible to drive future sane conduct, the ATF would have to be allowing 01FFLs selling, say, 1911 or AR uppers and lowers to do this after cash tweaking, but before handover. I don't have direct info but it appears ATF has hassled FFLs for "manufacturing" unless/until the lower has truly entered possession of the buyer and left the store. (The buyer then comes back into the store for 'gunsmithing'.)

I don't see it profitable for us to muck with the ATF on this since generally the ATF is not our problem and CA laws/regulations are.
There are enough resources fighting Fed matters that I think it's best we concentrate with those regarded as invariant and we work
on CA matters. "Fix one thing at a time" and "take on one agency at a time" seems rational to me.

franklinarmory
02-04-2011, 2:29 PM
That may be so, but does that mean that it is illegal for a dealer to put a scope on a fella's Remington 700 while he's waiting his 10 days? If not, I don't see how federal law would look at this any different.

bwiese
02-04-2011, 2:42 PM
That may be so, but does that mean that it is illegal for a dealer to put a scope on a fella's Remington 700 while he's waiting his 10 days? If not, I don't see how federal law would look at this any different.

I think scopes, sights, slings and ergonomic trivia don't count.

Barrels, slides, caliber changes, action styles all are substantive to the gun and the FFL should not make such changes to an untransferred/undelivered gun unless he has an 07.

Table Rock Arms
02-04-2011, 8:14 PM
The actual question is if the fixed zero shot magazine is a "drop in" part. ATF released a ruling in 2009 that if you are installing "drop in" parts then it is considered gunsmithing.

The ATF definition of drop in parts is as follows.

A "drop in" part is one that can be installed in or on an existing, fully assembled firearm without drilling, cutting, or machining. A replacement part, whether factory original or otherwise, has the same design, function, substantially the same dimensions, and does not otherwise affect the manner in which the weapon expels a projectile by the action of an explosive.

The barrel I would say is the good to go. However an argument could be made for the magazine either way. One way to look at it is that the magazine does not have the same function so it would not be a drop in part. The other way to look at it would be that swapping the original magazine for a zero shot magazine would be no different that swapping out a 15rd mag for a 10rd mag. After all, the action of the gun has not changed.

Ryan

jtmkinsd
02-05-2011, 1:32 AM
Would you say the barrels you use for the modification have "substantailly the same dimension"?

Really this all comes down to a pretty technical point of policy by ATF...so we do it their way. The sale isn't complete and it's not taken out of the books until the customer and I sign the 4473 after the 10 day wait. Then it gets brought back in as the customer's gun. Is it stupid? Yeah.

Table Rock Arms
02-05-2011, 5:59 AM
Would you say the barrels you use for the modification have "substantailly the same dimension"?

Really this all comes down to a pretty technical point of policy by ATF...so we do it their way. The sale isn't complete and it's not taken out of the books until the customer and I sign the 4473 after the 10 day wait. Then it gets brought back in as the customer's gun. Is it stupid? Yeah.

I would say the barrels are of substantially the same dimension. Every dimension is basically the same except for length and function is the same. that is my take and that's it however.

As for when someone has posession of the gun, I agree that the person is not in posession of the gun until the background check is approved and the 4473 is signed. I have had people try to tell me they are the rightful owner as soon as they order a gun off gunbroker. Not sure how you could be the rightful owner of something when it has yet to be determined if you can legally have it.

Ryan