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View Full Version : CALL TO COLLEGE STUDENTS: Please let me know if you see censorship at your school


oaklander
02-02-2011, 5:11 PM
As you might know, we had a nice victory today:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=391104

After some prodding, a CSU college decided to do the right thing, and open up debate on the "gun issue."

What I am now realizing is that there are probably many more other colleges out there that are censoring speech on gun issue. If it's a CSU college, they now have a new WRITTEN policy with respect to internet comments on their online news articles.

Basically, they will now post everything unless it is vulgar.

That is our win today.

If it's a private or UC school, then I do not know what their policies are.

This might seem like a minor issue, but the reality is that online newspapers are what most college kids read these days, and if the online college newspaper stifles debate on a given issue (like the "gun issue"), then the students don't get to understand the issue as well as they should.

SO:

If your college is stifling "gun debate," let me know. I will coordinate with the Right People and figure out next steps. I may or may not post a thread about it, since that is not always needed (it was here, for reasons I won't disclose).

ALSO - would someone who actually goes to CSUEB please let me know when my editorial is printed in the print edition??? I want to send a copy to my mom!!!!

:D

There was some apparent trolling in my other thread on this topic, and it caused the thread to be shut down. Please do not engage anyone who appears to be trolling. I will try and remember to do the same.

cqbdude
02-02-2011, 5:15 PM
Great to hear Oak...Thank You for your hard work..

yakmon
02-02-2011, 5:16 PM
oaklander fishing for more trouble, i love it. where do i buy this cat a drink? this link (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=108030) doesn't put glenlevit into oaklander!

oaklander
02-02-2011, 5:22 PM
LOL, there's only trouble if the other side refuses to do the right thing.

I am passionate about rights, not just gun rights - but the right of free speech too.

BTW, there's a bunch of bars up in this area around Sonora - I'm actually planning an unofficial "retreat" in this area - say tuned. I want to get a bunch of us together so we can work with CGF and CRPA, etc. and plan out some fun stuff!!!

Gray Peterson
02-02-2011, 5:23 PM
Folks,

The Leonard Law applies 1st amendment principles to private colleges and universities. This applies ONLY to students, not to faculty or third parties off site:

Education Code 94367. (a) No private postsecondary educational institution shall
make or enforce a rule subjecting a student to disciplinary sanctions
solely on the basis of conduct that is speech or other communication
that, when engaged in outside the campus or facility of a private
postsecondary institution, is protected from governmental restriction
by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or Section
2 of Article I of the California Constitution.
(b) A student enrolled in a private postsecondary institution at
the time that the institution has made or enforced any rule in
violation of subdivision (a) may commence a civil action to obtain
appropriate injunctive and declaratory relief as determined by the
court. Upon motion, a court may award attorney's fees to a prevailing
plaintiff in a civil action pursuant to this section.
(c) This section does not apply to a private postsecondary
educational institution that is controlled by a religious
organization, to the extent that the application of this section
would not be consistent with the religious tenets of the
organization.
(d) This section does not authorize the prior restraint of student
speech.
(e) This section does not prohibit the imposition of discipline
for harassment, threats, or intimidation, unless constitutionally
protected.
(f) This section does not prohibit an institution from adopting
rules and regulations that are designed to prevent hate violence, as
defined in subdivision (a) of Section 4 of Chapter 1363 of the
Statutes of 1992, from being directed at students in a manner that
denies them their full participation in the educational process, so
long as the rules and regulations conform to standards established by
the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and Section 2
of Article I of the California Constitution for citizens generally.

yakmon
02-02-2011, 5:27 PM
LOL, there's only trouble if the other side refuses to do the right thing.
!

was it stalin or hitler that said the same thing :43:


trouble makers like you, oaklander, are exactly what we in california, and the country need. party on, and godspeed!

oaklander
02-02-2011, 5:27 PM
Thanks Gray,

This could be EPIC. My prediction is that most colleges (public or private) will fold - since litigation on speech issues makes them look bad, at least in CA.

This is especially true in the 9th, for some reason.

I think the fact that the whole FSM was started up in the Bay Area has something to do with it.

There's also a LOT of competition among colleges to attract new students - so they try really hard to NOT get bad PR of any kind. Being sued because you are censoring debate is the kind of thing that they hate, since it impacts them by driving away prospective students.

EDIT: in the converse, even though the "gun issue" is something that liberals don't like - most true liberals are even more angry when they see censorship. What this means is that unlike other litigation, any litigation that is done on "speech issues" has a halo of "political correctness," since it's hard for anyone, even a liberal, to argue against free speech.

In sum:

Even a win is a loss for them.
Even a loss is a win for us.

I've thought this through a lot from a PR perspective.

ALSO: the mere fact that this thread exists is significant, since I can assure you that college admins and counsel are now reading our forum. I never gave them the link, but it's all over the comments on the article that was the genesis of this whole thing. One single person isn't much - but when that person is part of a group of smart and dedicated "civil rights" folks (like us) - then there's some leverage.

There's some subtleties here, and I won't post them online, for obvious reasons.

Folks,

The Leonard Law applies 1st amendment principles to private colleges and universities. This applies ONLY to students, not to faculty or third parties off site:

Education Code 94367. (a) No private postsecondary educational institution shall
make or enforce a rule subjecting a student to disciplinary sanctions
solely on the basis of conduct that is speech or other communication
that, when engaged in outside the campus or facility of a private
postsecondary institution, is protected from governmental restriction
by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or Section
2 of Article I of the California Constitution.
(b) A student enrolled in a private postsecondary institution at
the time that the institution has made or enforced any rule in
violation of subdivision (a) may commence a civil action to obtain
appropriate injunctive and declaratory relief as determined by the
court. Upon motion, a court may award attorney's fees to a prevailing
plaintiff in a civil action pursuant to this section.
(c) This section does not apply to a private postsecondary
educational institution that is controlled by a religious
organization, to the extent that the application of this section
would not be consistent with the religious tenets of the
organization.
(d) This section does not authorize the prior restraint of student
speech.
(e) This section does not prohibit the imposition of discipline
for harassment, threats, or intimidation, unless constitutionally
protected.
(f) This section does not prohibit an institution from adopting
rules and regulations that are designed to prevent hate violence, as
defined in subdivision (a) of Section 4 of Chapter 1363 of the
Statutes of 1992, from being directed at students in a manner that
denies them their full participation in the educational process, so
long as the rules and regulations conform to standards established by
the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and Section 2
of Article I of the California Constitution for citizens generally.

oaklander
02-02-2011, 5:28 PM
I'm hoping it was MacArthur!!!!

was it stalin or hitler that said the same thing :43:

Flopper
02-02-2011, 5:31 PM
If there's any college students who are very active on Calguns, get ready to be inundated with PM's and emails ;)

PsychGuy274
02-02-2011, 5:36 PM
I never really read my school paper, but I'll keep an eye out! :43:

yakmon
02-02-2011, 5:38 PM
I'm hoping it was MacArthur!!!!

i'm pretty sure MacArthur said the same thing when he returned to the PI. kinda like most of the iraqi foot soldiers did when we invaded.

Werewolf1021
02-02-2011, 5:42 PM
I will keep a lookout here at Cal Poly, but I doubt it will happen especially after what happened with Steven Hinkle.

http://thefire.org/index.php/article/152.html

Gray Peterson
02-02-2011, 5:43 PM
FSM?

PsychGuy274
02-02-2011, 5:48 PM
I'm searching through The Guardian's website right now (UCSD's paper) and ran across THIS (http://www.ucsdguardian.org/focus/site-seen/iron-sights-shooting-range/)!!! Kind of surprising coming from UCSD.

Before coming to the range I had envisioned being barely able to restrain myself from running around in circles, recklessly shooting into the air and screaming “Yippiekayay, mother****ers!” at the top of my lungs, but now that I actually had the cold steel in my hands, all I wanted to do was make it out of the building with both my thumbs intact. Yet, after unloading the first round of bullets on my 9mm — and having a fair amount actually impale Wifebeater Chuck — I relaxed a little and started enjoying myself.

oaklander
02-02-2011, 5:49 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement

I know this goes without saying, but the tactics used to achieve civil rights work no matter what the right is.

EDIT: BUT - with gun rights stuff in "hostile" states - you have to "enclose" it in other more "politically-correct" rights (like free speech). I promised myself I would not get too esoteric. So I'll stop there. Trust me, I've done a lot of thinking on this.

:D

It's quiet up here in Sonora - lots of time to think, and plot.

FSM?

BigFatGuy
02-02-2011, 5:59 PM
Sad thing is, I haven't seen any real signs of censorship on gun issues at CSULB, because most of the student body is so anti-gun they hardly feel the need to debate the issue.

Our paper's website is pretty much open, though. I've seen some real nasty stuff get posted there, obviously not moderated.

I'll keep an eye out, though.

Tom Slick
02-02-2011, 6:05 PM
I will keep a lookout here at Cal Poly, but I doubt it will happen especially after what happened with Steven Hinkle.

http://thefire.org/index.php/article/152.html

We discussed milling 80% AR lowers in class and had a couple unofficial department "range nights" when I was at CP a couple of years ago.

I didn't see any censorship while I was there 2007-2009. I did see overreactions and political correctness (not gun related) though.

Falconis
02-02-2011, 6:05 PM
Kind of a tangent here, but I wonder what would happen if a student started handing out Pro 2A flyers on campus ....

oaklander
02-02-2011, 6:06 PM
This is awesome guys!

I'm glad it sounds like most colleges are doing the right thing!!!!

:)

oaklander
02-02-2011, 6:13 PM
This isn't legal advice, but:

I think the law is that you can do it in traditionally open areas. Probably not in class. But the "quad" or whatever is fine.

What I saw from reviewing the cases is that there's a kind of common sense approach. Handing out flyers is fine, unless they are vulgar, or you disrupt class or a meeting or something.

That being said, before you do anything public like that, it's always best to coordinate with any campus guns clubs, or conservative groups.

You might want to really think about what the flyer says too. Since schools are so paranoid about guns that even a slight misstatement could prove problematic.

Usually, a low-key approach is the best way to get folks on our side. Online discussion forums work well. But, for some reason, doing certain stuff in "real life" seems a little too in-your-face to some people. It sometimes turns people off.

Remember, we are trying to appear reasonable and peaceful. Those are our "talking points."

That's the problem I have with open carry. I totally agree with the concept, but we aren't winning a lot of supporters by doing it.

Kind of a tangent here, but I wonder what would happen if a student started handing out Pro 2A flyers on campus ....

choprzrul
02-02-2011, 6:21 PM
Seem to me that almost all of these institutions offer online continuing ed courses that would be very easy to sign up for. Once you do that, you would be an official student at that institution I would think.

Just a thought.

.

Librarian
02-02-2011, 6:21 PM
FSM?

Free Speech Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement). ETA Oops, Oaklander already got it.

oaklander
02-02-2011, 6:24 PM
This should be helpful to Free Speech advocates:

http://thefire.org/public/pdfs/free-speech.pdf?direct

Paladin
02-02-2011, 6:26 PM
PM sent

GOEX FFF
02-02-2011, 6:32 PM
Thanks Oaklander for your work on this, per your other thread.

It's just further proof at the smack down ppl deserve when not only want to strip the 2A rights of Firearms owners, but also would love to censor their 1st as well.
It's well past due for these people to realize what country they're actually living in.

charliedontsurf334
02-02-2011, 6:41 PM
I'm glad I go to Embry-Riddle Aero University in Presott, AZ where our school newspaper has a gun review.

AJAX22
02-02-2011, 7:10 PM
So Oak... you want a copy of the police report ;)

http://mobile.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67652&page=11

wash
02-02-2011, 8:36 PM
FSM?
FSM threw me as well, I thought the Flying Spaghetti Monster was created up north (upon checking it was Oregon).

It is kind of relevant as a freedom of religion in schools issue to challenge people who wanted to teach creationism as history in public schools.

In our case we are challenging people who want to teach gun control as a good idea when there is very convincing evidence to the contrary.

HK4113
02-02-2011, 9:14 PM
This was the only article from my school, but it wasn't at all about gun control.

http://www.dailybruin.com/index.php/article/2011/01/psychology_not_politics_should_be_main_focus_in_co verage_of_az_shootings

gun toting monkeyboy
02-02-2011, 10:24 PM
Sad thing is, I haven't seen any real signs of censorship on gun issues at CSULB, because most of the student body is so anti-gun they hardly feel the need to debate the issue.

Our paper's website is pretty much open, though. I've seen some real nasty stuff get posted there, obviously not moderated.

I'll keep an eye out, though.

lol. You missed it in the 90s. The BSU was inviting the equivelent of the black Klan on campus to give paid speeches. The school ended up having to pay the money back to anybody asked for it. They have gotten thumped pretty well in the past, so hopefully they know better now. And when I was there, were two student papers. One run by the school, and one run by students. The student one tended to be much more open-minded. And significantly less sober most of the time. Something about having their office downstairs from the Nugget might have had something to do with that.

Lead-Thrower
02-02-2011, 11:11 PM
Never read the CSUS paper, maybe I should...

BigFatGuy
02-02-2011, 11:25 PM
And when I was there, were two student papers. One run by the school, and one run by students. The student one tended to be much more open-minded. And significantly less sober most of the time.

Still are two... the official one is a horrible, shallow shadow of real jouralism, and the student one is a horrible, shallow shadow of a real "edgy" magazine.

I don't know anyone who reads either on a regular basis. ;-)

17+1
02-03-2011, 1:16 AM
SJSU sucks...I hate it there.

Our professor was talking about how rifles used to be handmade and fitted this week in class. I told him they still are and if you're competing it's important. Some idiot on the back of the class starts saying something about a 50BMG Barrett...what a toolbox. Too many youtube videos.

I never see anything about guns in the school paper, but then again I seldom read their crappy journalism. Sorry, wish I could help more. I would love to see them go down in flames.

HisDivineShadow
02-03-2011, 8:27 AM
Never had any trouble talking about guns at ULV, or their law school for that matter.

I was fortunate enough to be taking Constitutional Law when the Heller decision came out. I had a big debate in class with my ultra-liberal professor about that. :43:

Wherryj
02-03-2011, 12:57 PM
I will keep a lookout here at Cal Poly, but I doubt it will happen especially after what happened with Steven Hinkle.

http://thefire.org/index.php/article/152.html

It's too bad that they didn't have a copy of the flier that "some" considered "offensive". I wonder if there was anything OTHER than the fact that it was for a Republican group at a liberal bastion of higher indoctrination.

porky
02-03-2011, 1:26 PM
As a professor at a local community college, I make it a point to engage students about guns and gun ownership. Some are interested-some are not. However, it is important to bring up this issue as it is represented both positively and negatively in various forms of art, including literature. I think I might incorporate this into my courses next semester. Sign and Symbol: Guns and Weapons in Literature-Diggin it!;)

oaklander
02-03-2011, 1:35 PM
WIN!

As a professor at a local community college, I make it a point to engage students about guns and gun ownership. Some are interested-some are not. However, it is important to bring up this issue as it is represented both positively and negatively in various forms of art, including literature. I think I might incorporate this into my courses next semester. Sign and Symbol: Guns and Weapons in Literature-Diggin it!;)

Dr Rockso
02-03-2011, 1:59 PM
SJSU sucks...I hate it there.

Our professor was talking about how rifles used to be handmade and fitted this week in class. I told him they still are and if you're competing it's important. Some idiot on the back of the class starts saying something about a 50BMG Barrett...what a toolbox. Too many youtube videos.

I never see anything about guns in the school paper, but then again I seldom read their crappy journalism. Sorry, wish I could help more. I would love to see them go down in flames.

I finished my BS there a little over a year ago and, surprisingly, never had any anti-gun experiences. In the GE courses I did have to take, none of my profs were explicitly anti-gun. At least one of them was pro-gun (an African-American studies prof) and talked a couple times about his own collection. I wrote gun-related papers in that class, a philosophy class, and a political science class; all of them received A's. I never read the school paper, though.

jonyg
02-03-2011, 2:20 PM
Will keep an eye out for sure.

Laser Sailor
02-03-2011, 3:35 PM
I have a professor at my school that occasionally sees me with a gun magazine (the kind with photos and articles ;) ) or talking with a buddy about shooting outside classes. As one of my major professors I've taken quite a few classes with him and devleoped a rapport. I'm not sure where he stands on guns exactly, but whenever guns come up as something discussed in class he always asks my opinion, as I'm his "resident gun expert". It's nice to see that differing views are welcome at my school, or at least in his classes.

I've participated in empty holster days, nobody seemed to mind too much. I did get to educate a few fellow students. They were receptive to what I had to say.

Cali-Shooter
02-03-2011, 9:46 PM
Bump for CSU and other university students. We must continue to fight for free speech, even if it is just fighting for the right to post comments on anti-gun campus editorial websites hosted on servers funded by the CA gov't, which actually is a big deal.

mkkeele
02-03-2011, 10:59 PM
Thanks for correcting that problem. I go to CSUEB, and I will definitely keep an eye out for your editorial.

oaklander
02-03-2011, 11:18 PM
Thanks! It is here already:
http://thepioneeronline.com/editorials/2011/02/guns-gun-control-and-google/

I am hoping that it will appear in the print edition as well - here:
http://pioneer.csuhayward.edu/

Thanks for correcting that problem. I go to CSUEB, and I will definitely keep an eye out for your editorial.

HK4113
02-03-2011, 11:24 PM
Thanks! It is here already:
http://thepioneeronline.com/editorials/2011/02/guns-gun-control-and-google/

I am hoping that it will appear in the print edition as well - here:
http://pioneer.csuhayward.edu/


nice response!

mkkeele
02-03-2011, 11:26 PM
I just read it online. Nice job! Ill keep an eye out for the print edition.

Connor P Price
02-03-2011, 11:44 PM
Wow, and I've been hesitant to browse calguns on my laptop while accessing the internet using my login at my CSU. I've always browsed on my laptop thinking they'd have a policy against such things and not wanting to bother. Looks like I've got more time to browse calguns between classes now.

oaklander
02-04-2011, 2:22 PM
OK, I've made contact with the ACLU's NorCal office. I have spoken with one of their attorneys and they have invited us to bring them into this "battle."

What this means is that we now have an ally here (in addition to our traditional allies).

If you see ANYTHING that looks like anti-gun censorship, please let me know. We will take care of it.

PsychGuy274
02-04-2011, 3:00 PM
OK, I've made contact with the ACLU's NorCal office. I have spoken with one of their attorneys and they have invited us to bring them into this "battle."

What this means is that we now have an ally here (in addition to our traditional allies).

If you see ANYTHING that looks like anti-gun censorship, please let me know. We will take care of it.

A couple questions:

Is this only for NorCal?

Does this only pertain to college/university campuses or can we do this if we see a similar situation in a local newspaper?

madmike
02-04-2011, 4:01 PM
Thanks! It is here already:
http://thepioneeronline.com/editorials/2011/02/guns-gun-control-and-google/

I am hoping that it will appear in the print edition as well - here:
http://pioneer.csuhayward.edu/

My comment has been awaiting moderation for about 24 hours now...

oaklander
02-04-2011, 6:05 PM
Let's give them a couple of days so that we look reasonable.

If it's still not posted. I will bring this to the attention of their General Counsel (again).

My comment has been awaiting moderation for about 24 hours now...

oaklander
02-04-2011, 6:11 PM
ACLU works by having local offices - but they will take action on a statewide basis, if required.

I honestly do not know the law on private newspapers. It starts from the same place (1A), but then there's a whole different line of cases. The problem here is that they have a 1A right to publish what they want, and it has to be balanced against our 1A right to say what we want.

In public colleges, this balances more towards us in many cases.

In private colleges in CA, it also balances more towards us (due to a specific law).

I have no idea how public newspapers "balance" this.

If you see something - let me know.

A couple questions:

Is this only for NorCal?

Does this only pertain to college/university campuses or can we do this if we see a similar situation in a local newspaper?

PsychGuy274
02-04-2011, 7:22 PM
If you see something - let me know.

Will do, Sir. I will do what I can.

Nessal
02-04-2011, 8:05 PM
I'm a CSUH alumni(I hated the name change) and I remember the times that I went there, it was more conservative that most academia. Surprised how fast things have changed.