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johnny_22
09-01-2006, 4:26 PM
This was mentioned in the CRPA September 2006 "magazine":

http://angeles.sierraclub.org/environmental/Newsletter.asp#GettheLeadOut


What is interesting is the groups involved in suing the State of California:

The Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/condor/index.html

Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) http://72.32.110.154/media/

and...Physicians for Social Responsibility (PSR) a very anti-gun group!

I guess our tax dollars will help fight this lawsuit. Not sure if writing these groups to point out the lack of lead-free rimfire for varmit hunting will help at all.

artherd
09-01-2006, 4:49 PM
You know what, in principle I agree with this (in time, when all-copper becomes the market standard) In practice, it will be far too restrictive.

Really there is no reason to use lead anymore in ammunition, it is rather serious polution.

CA is also not the place to do it, make it happen nationally (and make it effective say 5 years from date of passage.)

Edited to add: all branches of the military would need to go to lead-free ammo too.

M. Sage
09-01-2006, 5:29 PM
All shooters of military surplus would looove to see that... 'Cause there's so much lead-free milsurp out there.

I can't wait till the only ammo I can get for my $80 rifle costs $20+/box.

tankerman
09-01-2006, 7:12 PM
You know what, in principle I agree with this (in time, when all-copper becomes the market standard) In practice, it will be far too restrictive.

Really there is no reason to use lead anymore in ammunition, it is rather serious polution.

CA is also not the place to do it, make it happen nationally (and make it effective say 5 years from date of passage.)

Lead is a pollutant? Should we mine it all and launch it into space? Synthetic stocks create pollution, so does gun blue and anodizing, bore cleaner, tritium, rubber recoil pads etc.... How do you think copper is purified? Other than keeping lead out of species other than what is being hunted, I don't see the reason. Water run-off studies at gun ranges have shown in EVERY instance that 'range lead' is not polluting ground water or surrounding areas. The Anti's tried to use the lead is a pollutant arguement to close ranges all over the country. It did not work because the arguement proved false.

grammaton76
09-01-2006, 7:15 PM
The Anti's tried to use the lead is a pollutant arguement to close ranges all over the country. It did not work because the arguement proved false.

Today's shooting ranges = "Whoa, dude, check out the rich lead deposits here!" 200 years later

tankerman
09-01-2006, 7:27 PM
Today's shooting ranges = "Whoa, dude, check out the rich lead deposits here!" 200 years later

Have you see the prices on lead shot? Heck the Chinese will probably have the mining rights to our ranges in the next couple of years.;)

Creeping Incrementalism
09-01-2006, 10:30 PM
Really there is no reason to use lead anymore in ammunition, it is rather serious polution.

I agree with what tankerman said: there is no pollution from lead bullets. A bigger "problem" is the Uranium that naturally occurs in dirt, which actually isn't a problem at all. Not to mention that fact that since steel-core won't expand like lead will, you'll have lots of problems with over-penetration and wound ballistics. And then there's the fact that you can't have steel-core handgun bullets. Have you really thought this through?

singleshotman
09-02-2006, 9:12 AM
Some of you guys talk like our favorite "gun-grabbers", just think that 95% of all hunting is done with .22 rimfires, what about all the people who hunt with muzzleloaders-are they going to shoot steel balls now? Also none of this ammo expands on impact-it just drills holes thru game which is just woulded and can excape. If this suit wins, which i doubt, THERE WILL NO MORE HUNTING IN CA, are you guys too dumb to think this thru? This crap was tried in a bill and falled to pass-it only shows the weakness of their position to file a lawsuit againest the State. The state assy and Senate are far more likely to pass this crap than a lawsuit.

chris
09-02-2006, 9:25 AM
pipe dream i say on their part.

M. Sage
09-02-2006, 10:00 AM
Some of you guys talk like our favorite "gun-grabbers", just think that 95% of all hunting is done with .22 rimfires, what about all the people who hunt with muzzleloaders-are they going to shoot steel balls now? Also none of this ammo expands on impact-it just drills holes thru game which is just woulded and can excape. If this suit wins, which i doubt, THERE WILL NO MORE HUNTING IN CA, are you guys too dumb to think this thru? This crap was tried in a bill and falled to pass-it only shows the weakness of their position to file a lawsuit againest the State. The state assy and Senate are far more likely to pass this crap than a lawsuit.

Not only will it impact hunting, but a lot of the ranges we shoot at were in areas that they wanted to disallow the use of lead in (in the bill that died). It would practically be the death of shooting in the PRK.

FWIW, I think people were talking about all-copper bullets... It would expand, but probably not as much.

jmlivingston
09-02-2006, 10:13 AM
I agree with you Ben, and I was similarly roasted on this subject here back when DFG had their public comment meeting in San Diego (a year or two ago now?). Certainly there needs to be cost-effective alternatives and some sort of phase-in approach to make this happen.

There is at least enough of a concern in regard to this that our military has developed methods for cleanup of small-arms ranges. You can read about it here. (http://aec.army.mil/usaec/technology/rangexxi03c.html) And then the EPA ordered the NG to cleanup one of their ranges due to pollution. (http://www.epa.gov/ne/pr/1997/pr041497a.html)

Go do a Google or Yahoo search and you'll find lots of hits on lead-contamination especially at shooting ranges. Go ahead and ignore all the results that include organizations such as the VPC and the miltoxproj and there is still plenty of concern about lead contaminant.

I'm not advocating that lead has to be removed, but that as responsible sportsmen we need to be aware what the issues are. Many of the hunting/fishing associations out there recognizes that conservation is an important aspect of their sport. As shooters, we need to recognize that as well and respond appropriately. But like I started off with, cost-effective and reasonable alternatives have to be found first.

John

tankerman
09-02-2006, 7:42 PM
I agree with you Ben, and I was similarly roasted on this subject here back when DFG had their public comment meeting in San Diego (a year or two ago now?). Certainly there needs to be cost-effective alternatives and some sort of phase-in approach to make this happen.

There is at least enough of a concern in regard to this that our military has developed methods for cleanup of small-arms ranges. You can read about it here. (http://aec.army.mil/usaec/technology/rangexxi03c.html) And then the EPA ordered the NG to cleanup one of their ranges due to pollution. (http://www.epa.gov/ne/pr/1997/pr041497a.html)

Go do a Google or Yahoo search and you'll find lots of hits on lead-contamination especially at shooting ranges. Go ahead and ignore all the results that include organizations such as the VPC and the miltoxproj and there is still plenty of concern about lead contaminant.

I'm not advocating that lead has to be removed, but that as responsible sportsmen we need to be aware what the issues are. Many of the hunting/fishing associations out there recognizes that conservation is an important aspect of their sport. As shooters, we need to recognize that as well and respond appropriately. But like I started off with, cost-effective and reasonable alternatives have to be found first.

John


Move next to a race track and act surprised when you hear noise and smell exhaust. Find one industry that doesn't create some kind of contamination that is related to shooting sports. Copper mines and arsenic to create bullets is not a legit trade off.

artherd
09-03-2006, 2:31 PM
Like I said, this bill is way premature, but the end-goal of lead-free ammo is laudable and an eventual certinty. The time is not now, but very soon.


Guys, we finally have lead-free solder (see pluming industry) that works just fine.

This is 2006 people. Not 1966.

There are alternatives, and they can be phased in chceaply and slowly, so as not to damage shooting sports.

"no expansion" my ******, Barnes alone makes traditional lead bullets, of ALL KINDS, deader than a dynosaur. http://www.barnesbullets.com/prodmrx_new2006.php I have been handloading with various Barnes copper solids, in .22 to .338 calibers, for years. They literally beat everything else out there when it comes to game. Catastrophic killing power & expansion, and great weight retention, plus match accuracy.

Muzzleloaders: http://www.barnesbullets.com/prodmuzzleloader.php

Any other facicous arguments?

Some of you guys talk like our favorite "gun-grabbers", just think that 95% of all hunting is done with .22 rimfires, what about all the people who hunt with muzzleloaders-are they going to shoot steel balls now? Also none of this ammo expands on impact-it just drills holes thru game which is just woulded and can excape. If this suit wins, which i doubt, THERE WILL NO MORE HUNTING IN CA, are you guys too dumb to think this thru? This crap was tried in a bill and falled to pass-it only shows the weakness of their position to file a lawsuit againest the State. The state assy and Senate are far more likely to pass this crap than a lawsuit.

M. Sage
09-03-2006, 2:40 PM
Has anybody done impact studies on copper? It's probably better than lead, but it can't be good.

Fjold
09-03-2006, 2:51 PM
I use Barnes TSX monometal bullets in my 375 H&H and 7mm Mag and should use them in alot of my other guns because they perform so well. The problem is the cheapest TSX's are about $25.00 a box of 50. Plinking and serious varmint hunting are out of the question with these bullets but for medium and big game they are a great choice.

singleshotman
09-03-2006, 5:13 PM
i'm sorry but you figure there going to ban lead bullets to save a few condors?
They will try it, but it won't work.
Like i said all ammo except shotgun ammo has lead in it-unless your shooting 8mm lebel ammo from WW1.Also don't forget almost all of this shooting is on BLM land-and the BLM BANS STEEL CORED AMMO, because it's a fire hazard.This is another bankhanded idea to steal our guns, why do you think that congress put provisions that banned the Consumer products safety commission from having anything to do with firearms or ammo. It was becaus the NRA throught thy'd try to ban ammo by the backdoor.I'm sure it was throught of at the time.What about all the millions of guns that cannot shoot anything but lead?

Creeping Incrementalism
09-03-2006, 6:55 PM
There are alternatives, and they can be phased in chceaply and slowly, so as not to damage shooting sports.

Name one alternative metal that is as cheap as lead and expands properly. There is none.

Copper bullets are ridiculously expensive. They are premium bullets designed only for hunting, which is not a high volume type of shooting.

Regarding effectiveness, they are not more effective than lead. Copper's advantage is that it doesn't fragment when expanding, giving you better penetration (because the bullet doesn't lose weight) with expansion. However, fragmenting lead turns the temporary wound cavity into a permanent cavity, which is lost with copper bullets. Take a look at Fackler's wound ballistics diagrams and you will see the advantage of fragmenting lead.

Steel is fairly cheap, but doesn't expand.

Regarding the EPA forcing the NG to stop using lead ammo due to environmental converns, this decision is based entirely on speculation and there is ZERO evidence that anyone or anything has suffered from lead contamination. The lawsuit in question is the same--there is no proof that condors eating lead bullets in dead animals. It speculation.

Then there's the fact that copper creates its own pollution. I'm astounded that anyone pro-RKBA could be for banning lead ammo.

To sum it up:
1. No problem has been proved.
2. No viable solution exists.
3. This would destroy shooting in California.

Pulsar
09-03-2006, 7:01 PM
Lead is a pollutant? Should we mine it all and launch it into space? Synthetic stocks create pollution, so does gun blue and anodizing, bore cleaner, tritium, rubber recoil pads etc.... How do you think copper is purified? Other than keeping lead out of species other than what is being hunted, I don't see the reason. Water run-off studies at gun ranges have shown in EVERY instance that 'range lead' is not polluting ground water or surrounding areas. The Anti's tried to use the lead is a pollutant arguement to close ranges all over the country. It did not work because the arguement proved false.

Just gotta point out, caustic bluing salts make a great fertilizer when they are used up for bluing.


And what are all the old black powder guy's supposed to do? I know plenty of people who cast there own bullets cause they can't get anything else.

singleshotman
09-03-2006, 11:54 PM
if you think about this there are some funny aspects to this-the NRA supporting the State of California as the Defendant in the Lawsuit-you know what they say about policic's makeing strange bedfellows. Kind of like Goerge Patton's 6th army fighting next to the Waffen SS againest the Soviets.

johnny_22
09-04-2006, 4:19 PM
One found with a .22 in its stomach, from eating a shot animal:

http://www.crpa.org/showpages.asp?pid=1144


Once CCI/FEDERAL and the others start making Pb-free rimfire, then, we can think about limiting the lead.

Boomer1961
09-04-2006, 4:37 PM
Man I heard these anit-hunting groups do want to be reasonable and will compromise half way to at least get something they see that is important like saving a really stupid and ugly bird.

They are proposing the following.

-Non-metallic bullets

-Gunpowder free ammunition

-microstamping on all Non-Metallic bullets that will leave your micro-signature you made on your hunting license on the beast you shot after it bounces off!

-A special tax on the approved non-metallic ammunition of $500 a round that should not increase the cost of hunting significantly as you are probably spending several thousands of dollars on your hunting trip and really only need on round of special ammunition to make your trip successful.

-Painting all hunting guns pink to prove they do not have metallic ammunition as having such is a felony of metallic ammuntion in a pink gun. This is to help LE with the intent of your actions. It also will reduce fear of those afraid of the evil black firearms.

-Microstamping your ar$e so that LE can prove it is you and that it matches your non-metallic one round of approved hunting ammunition and your authorized hunting license.

tankerman
09-04-2006, 5:06 PM
Man I heard these anit-hunting groups do want to be reasonable and will compromise half way to at least get something they see that is important like saving a really stupid and ugly bird.

They are proposing the following.

-Non-metallic bullets

-Gunpowder free ammunition

-microstamping on all Non-Metallic bullets that will leave your micro-signature you made on your hunting license on the beast you shot after it bounces off!

-A special tax on the approved non-metallic ammunition of $500 a round that should not increase the cost of hunting significantly as you are probably spending several thousands of dollars on your hunting trip and really only need on round of special ammunition to make your trip successful.

-Painting all hunting guns pink to prove they do not have metallic ammunition as having such is a felony of metallic ammuntion in a pink gun. This is to help LE with the intent of your actions. It also will reduce fear of those afraid of the evil black firearms.

-Microstamping your ar$e so that LE can prove it is you and that it matches your non-metallic one round of approved hunting ammunition and your authorized hunting license.

You forgot one;
They would like to tag the children of anyone that has ever hunted or killed an animal so the can ridicule them in public, specially in schools.

M. Sage
09-04-2006, 7:25 PM
The copper bullets use tungsten to add weight? Isn't a tungsten core illegal for handgun ammo?

And that condor with the rimfire bullet in it's stomach... the bullet wouldn't have moved through normally? Seems like it would have.