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View Full Version : "excessive fees & fines shall not be imposed"


gunsmith
01-31-2011, 3:05 PM
I'm pretty certain the COTUS says "excessive fees & fines shall not be imposed" somewhere in the B.O.R, yet the penalty for ( say ) a citizen of NV carrying a concealed handgun is pretty stiff. "African" Americans are also penalized more then "whites" ( in quotations because I don't believe in 19th century pseudo science separating "races" ).

Also - 4473's You have to put "race" in, & doesn't allow you to opt out-seems pretty racist to me!

So anyway, can we attack their stupid gun control by going after their COTUS violations due to "excessive fees & fines" for us exercising our rights?

dantodd
01-31-2011, 3:10 PM
excessive is a malleable term. I believe that once we have CA loosened up wrt some form of carry for all non-prohibited citizens there will be a movement to drive down the cost of licensing. The same can be said for DROS costs, right now they are supposedly set to be self funding and no more. WE have/will see a reduction in fees to offset previous over charging.

Kharn
01-31-2011, 3:18 PM
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.It is in the context of criminal penalties, not voluntary actions.

CalBear
01-31-2011, 3:56 PM
It is in the context of criminal penalties, not voluntary actions.
Correct. I don't know if he's talking about the fines for wearing a concealed handgun without a license or the license fees themselves. It still makes one wonder about those $250,000 per piece copyright fines and some of the other utterly enormous fines imposed these days. 5x average income is definitely a reasonable fine! :rolleyes:

N6ATF
01-31-2011, 4:34 PM
$50,000 is a pretty excessive bail to be released from the victim disarmament jail that is some counties in CA. :rolleyes:

Kharn
01-31-2011, 4:43 PM
Correct. I don't know if he's talking about the fines for wearing a concealed handgun without a license or the license fees themselves. It still makes one wonder about those $250,000 per piece copyright fines and some of the other utterly enormous fines imposed these days. 5x average income is definitely a reasonable fine! :rolleyes:Those are usually civil damages, not criminal fines.

Fish
01-31-2011, 5:51 PM
Those are usually civil damages, not criminal fines.

Which is bull**** in itself. Over the past few decades lawmakers have taken to creating causes for civil action instead of crimes because, well, that whole "beyond a reasonable doubt" thing is just so ... limiting.

If you want to take a break from the Second Amendment and get equally upset about a whole other part of the Constitution that's being systematically subverted, Google "civil asset forfeiture".

Short summary: Some government agency decides you've done something wrong. They seize your stuff, based on about the same standard of proof as they need for a search warrant. You have to sue to get it back. You have to establish a preponderance of evidence that you *didn't* do what they said you did. And good luck hiring a lawyer to help you if one of the things they seized was your bank account. Oh yeah, and the agency typically keeps the profit from selling your stuff. (No incentive for abuse there...)

I'd better stop before this rant really gets going. Seriously, Google it. You absolutely will not believe that you're reading about stuff that happens in this country.

gunsmith
02-01-2011, 9:49 PM
Fish you're a hundred percent correct.

@ you other guys- I was talking about the fines you face if busted for illegal ccw, for instance I have a NV ccw but wouldn't I face excessive fines if busted for ccw in CA or NYC?

or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Wherryj
02-02-2011, 1:13 PM
Which is bull**** in itself. Over the past few decades lawmakers have taken to creating causes for civil action instead of crimes because, well, that whole "beyond a reasonable doubt" thing is just so ... limiting.

If you want to take a break from the Second Amendment and get equally upset about a whole other part of the Constitution that's being systematically subverted, Google "civil asset forfeiture".

Short summary: Some government agency decides you've done something wrong. They seize your stuff, based on about the same standard of proof as they need for a search warrant. You have to sue to get it back. You have to establish a preponderance of evidence that you *didn't* do what they said you did. And good luck hiring a lawyer to help you if one of the things they seized was your bank account. Oh yeah, and the agency typically keeps the profit from selling your stuff. (No incentive for abuse there...)

I'd better stop before this rant really gets going. Seriously, Google it. You absolutely will not believe that you're reading about stuff that happens in this country.

This sounds amazingly like what physicians face with Medicare Fraud allegations. Billing an office visit is often highly subjective, so it is possible to "defraud" the system unintentionally.

However, the government has made the system like this: The agency that determines whether you have committed fraud is the agency that gets a percentage of the "take" if you are found guilty.

They can come to your office, pull a group of charts (ie. 10). Arbitrarily determine how many of those charts were "over charged" then extrapolate that to your entire practice of Medicare patients. They can even extrapolate that same percentage to every one of your PARTNER'S Medicare patients without even reviewing that person's charges.

Again, the company that makes the determination is the one that makes the money. The rules are arbitrary and you must essentially prove beyond a reason of a doubt that you did not defraud the system. Would it surprise you to hear that Medicare often brags that its fraud unit "collects $26 for every dollar spent" (or a similar number based upon the particular year's "take"? There are some people blatantly defrauding Medicare, but setting up the rules like this means that those who are innocent are treated like the worst offenders-the same way that gun owners are viewed today in CA.

I became aware of this when an ex-partner was counseled repeatedly by the group for questionable billing. The group ended up having all (dozen plus) doctors purchase insurance against Medicare Fraud investigation based upon this ONE physician. We ALL could have been held liable for ONE guy's being greedy with the system.

The second amendment and civil asset forfeiture" are only a few of the abuses that have been allowed to occur, abuses which absolutely strip away any "due process". Welcome to Amerika.