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cdtx2001
01-30-2011, 8:41 AM
Since the new DeLeon bill seeks to ban the possession of "any bullet capable of penetrating body armor", it got me thinking of true AP ammo.

Where does the law currently stand on real AP ammo? I know that AP ammo primarily designed for a handgun is a no-no. What about rifle rounds? I don't have a handgun that can shoot a rifle round (other than a 5.7).

Would it be legal to own these rifle calibers, especially if I don't have a handgun in that caliber:

SS109 .223
7.62x39 AP
7.62x54R AP
.308 AP
30-06 AP

These are primarily designed for a rifle, not handgun. What say you legal types?

Jack L
01-30-2011, 9:12 AM
I am not a legal type but..............I say Mr. de Leon's bill is going down in flames.

CSACANNONEER
01-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Rifle AP ammo is legal in CA. I have a few thousand .50 cal AP bullets stashed to use as plinking ammo or, to sort and use in a match if I run out of commercial projectiles.

ipser
01-30-2011, 10:47 AM
Since the new DeLeon bill seeks to ban the possession of "any bullet capable of penetrating body armor", it got me thinking of true AP ammo.
Never mind AP ammo, most high powered rifles can penetrate non-military grade body armor (ceramic inserts) with ordinary hunting rounds. (Not sure what politically correct copper ammo will do but I'll bet it does better than lead judging from what I've seen hunting with it.) What is the body armor standard that will be used for testing? The body armor that most police use is designed for handguns, not high-powered rifles.

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html

G60
01-30-2011, 10:54 AM
"high powered rifles" - another term with no meaning.

753X0
01-30-2011, 11:10 AM
it simply means centerfire.

ipser
01-30-2011, 11:19 AM
"high powered rifles" - another term with no meaning.

it simply means centerfire.

At the risk of moving the valid definitional question around, I would define a "high powered rifle" as one capable of bringing down big game and therefore in common use among hunters. I would hesitate to call 5.56 NATO a high-powered rifle. Perhaps 308 and up.

This is not a minor point, BTW. The gun banners tried to ban all so-called "cop-killer bullets" some time ago and failed because it would ban common hunting rounds. They got around that in CA by banning handgun AP rounds. Now that distinction is endangered by the recent ruling on handgun ammo sales. But falling back on the older approach simply resurrects the older problems.

I doubt the NRA will challenge the handgun AP ammo law but you can be sure that attorneys for defendants charged with violating the law will make the argument.

G60
01-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Or a way for the media to make a .223 sound like a thermonuclear device.

wildhawker
01-30-2011, 11:31 AM
ipser, why do you assume NRA would not challenge such a law?

ipser
01-30-2011, 11:48 AM
ipser, why do you assume NRA would not challenge such a law?

By "such a law" I assume you mean the existing prohibition on handgun AP ammo and not a more general law that would sweep in ordinary hunting ammo. I infer this because they haven't and because there are higher priorities.

Perhaps you could explain why you think overturning the existing ban on handgun AP rounds should take limited resources from overturning various other crazy CA anti-gun laws more commonly discussed in these forums?

Is GCN going to send out fund-raising letters asking for donations to overturn the ban on handgun AP ammo?

briankk
01-30-2011, 12:52 PM
It's allowed in CA unless it's .308. Recall that Geo. H.W. Bush found that .308 is pistol ammo, to prohibit importation of cheap .308 from Europe back in the day. Recall also that possession of AP pistol ammo is a felony, ergo, AP .308 is outlawed..

Yes, it is a stupid technicality, just the kind that the ATF loves to pull...

bk

CSACANNONEER
01-30-2011, 12:57 PM
It's allowed in CA unless it's .308. Recall that Geo. H.W. Bush found that .308 is pistol ammo, to prohibit importation of cheap .308 from Europe back in the day. Recall also that possession of AP pistol ammo is a felony, ergo, AP .308 is outlawed..

Yes, it is a stupid technicality, just the kind that the ATF loves to pull...

bk

AP pistol ammo is not illegal to posses on a Federal level. So why do you think that ATF would give a rat's azz?

wildhawker
01-30-2011, 1:13 PM
Ipser, I think you're projecting on my question.

You said: "I doubt the NRA will challenge the handgun AP ammo law". I asked why you believed that NRA wouldn't do so. Neither of us mentioned the proposition as time or resource-dependent, and I assumed your statement was to be taken accordingly.

There are more pressing ammo issues than the current law. If it changes, however, priorities may very well have to change with it.

ipser
01-30-2011, 1:31 PM
Ipser, I think you're projecting on my question.

You said: "I doubt the NRA will challenge the handgun AP ammo law". I asked why you believed that NRA wouldn't do so. Neither of us mentioned the proposition as time or resource-dependent, and I assumed your statement was to be taken accordingly.

There are more pressing ammo issues than the current law. If it changes, however, priorities may very well have to change with it.

I generally form my opinions about what people and organizations will do based, in part, on the pervasive human condition of limited time and resources.

In addition, as I previously noted, it is inevitable that defendant attorneys will challenge this law anyway (assuming anyone is actually prosecuted for violating it, I have no idea). And given the political cost of opposing a ban on "cop killer" bullets (as compared to opposing a ban on "hunting" bullets), it doesn't seem like a very sensible avenue to pursue.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-30-2011, 1:31 PM
It's allowed in CA unless it's .308. Recall that Geo. H.W. Bush found that .308 is pistol ammo, to prohibit importation of cheap .308 from Europe back in the day. Recall also that possession of AP pistol ammo is a felony, ergo, AP .308 is outlawed..

Yes, it is a stupid technicality, just the kind that the ATF loves to pull...

bk

Briankk, you are mixing up Federal and California law. The Feds do consider .308 to be handgun ammo for the purpose of Federal AP ammo restrictions, but the Federal restrictions don't ban transfer by non-FFLs, possession or use of AP ammo.

California exempts ammo primarily designed for use in rifles from its AP handgun ammo restrictions. California law doesn't allow CalDOJ to designate AP rifle ammo to be AP pistol ammo the way that Federal law allow ATF to do.

wildhawker
01-30-2011, 1:37 PM
Ipser, I'm flattered than you believed us capable of devining your philosophy from such limited data.

cdtx2001
01-30-2011, 4:48 PM
Briankk, you are mixing up Federal and California law. The Feds do consider .308 to be handgun ammo for the purpose of Federal AP ammo restrictions, but the Federal restrictions don't ban transfer by non-FFLs, possession or use of AP ammo.

California exempts ammo primarily designed for use in rifles from its AP handgun ammo restrictions. California law doesn't allow CalDOJ to designate AP rifle ammo to be AP pistol ammo the way that Federal law allow ATF to do.

So what you're saying is that it is legal to own AP rifle ammo in CA, yes?

timdps
01-30-2011, 6:25 PM
California exempts ammo primarily designed for use in rifles from its AP handgun ammo restrictions. California law doesn't allow CalDOJ to designate AP rifle ammo to be AP pistol ammo the way that Federal law allow ATF to do.

Looks like California's AP exemption for ammo used primarily in rifles goes away if DeLeon's SB 124 passes:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=389689

Tim

JohanD
01-30-2011, 7:19 PM
What are the stats on LEO body armor being penetrated by AP ammo? I would think there would be very few cases of that happening.

CSACANNONEER
01-30-2011, 8:27 PM
So what you're saying is that it is legal to own AP rifle ammo in CA, yes?

Yes, it is legal to own and shoot AP rifle ammo in CA.