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jak77
01-29-2011, 11:15 AM
A coworker of mine was asking me what the law is regarding long arms in vehicles. I told him that as long as its unloaded its fine, doesn't have to be locked up like handguns do. More specifically, he was thinking of getting of one of those shotgun mounts that police use in their cars, or something similar, for his car. I wasn't completely sure what the law is regarding this, I told him I guess it would be ok if as long as the shotgun was unloaded, but I said I would get back to him with a more difinitive answer.

Aside from reasons for doing this in the first place, and the intelligence behind such reasoning. What are the legal ramifications of doing this? PC would be nice if someone could provide it.

aermotor
01-29-2011, 11:19 AM
I believe school zones apply to all firearms, so if that's the case he would definitely have to abide by that... Don't think you can drive far and find yourself within 1,000 feet of one.

dantodd
01-29-2011, 11:23 AM
Long arms are not covered in CA GFSZ's but they are covered in the federal law. the police style shotgun holders generally lock and should be good to go.

Jack L
01-29-2011, 11:24 AM
I'd have a trigger lock on it for sure. In rural areas, long gun racks are common. When I moved to Humboldt County in 1969, almost every rancher had a rifle in the rear window of their truck. Long guns can be concealed too. But you know LE, they are always looking to get their pants in a twist as soon as they see any firearm so be careful and 100% legal all the way around.

jak77
01-29-2011, 11:25 AM
So if its a locking rack then it wont matter GFSZ or not?

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 11:27 AM
I'd have a trigger lock on it for sure. In rural areas, long gun racks are common. When I moved to Humboldt County in 1969, almost every rancher had a rifle in the rear window of their truck. Long guns can be concealed too. But you know LE, they are always looking to get their pants in a twist as soon as they see any firearm so be careful and 100% legal all the way around.
Trigger lock serves no legal purpose once you walk out of the gun store with the gun. It does not satisfy the requirements of the California or Federal GFSZ laws, and does not satisfy California's "secure locked container" requirement for transportation of a concealed handgun.

BKinzey
01-29-2011, 11:33 AM
So if its a locking rack then it wont matter GFSZ or not?

Locking rack and unloaded. Be prepared to be hassled for it though. Once the officer sees the firearm they have right to check to see if it is unloaded. He should be prepared to go through the hassles UOC people get.

Quiet
01-29-2011, 11:36 AM
A rifle or shotgun that is unloaded and in a locked rack will comply with both CA state laws [PC 626.9(c)(2)] and Federal laws [18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(iii)].


Penal Code 626.9
(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.

18 USC 922
(q)(2)(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

jtmkinsd
01-29-2011, 11:45 AM
So if its a locking rack then it wont matter GFSZ or not?

Correct, when carrying a long gun it must be "locked to the rack" to avoid the Federal GFSZ legality issues.

alex00
01-29-2011, 2:38 PM
Aside from all the other issues, make sure if your buddy goes through with this, that the shotgun is mounted in an area that doesn't interfere with airbag deployment. The airbags can either fail to deploy properly, or launch the shotgun into a person if the mounting system is installed in their path. Tell him to stay away from the overhead racks, too. I've seen the locks fail during severe bumps and minor collisions several times. Getting butt stroked smarts a bit.

dantodd
01-29-2011, 2:40 PM
Getting butt stroked smarts a bit.

So I've heard.

wildhawker
01-29-2011, 2:52 PM
Jack,

Long guns are not "firearms capable of being concealed on a person". As others pointed out, trigger locks on long guns are both useless and unnecessary.

Jack L
01-29-2011, 3:29 PM
Trigger lock serves no legal purpose once you walk out of the gun store with the gun. It does not satisfy the requirements of the California or Federal GFSZ laws, and does not satisfy California's "secure locked container" requirement for transportation of a concealed handgun.


A shotgun does not need a locked container in your vehicle, does not need to be locked in a rack, can be located anywhere and can be concealed too. I'd have a trigger lock incase a child or who knows who gets a hold of it in your vehicle. You are responsible and serves a legal purpose. Just saying best to be safer than loose when transporting.

wildhawker
01-29-2011, 3:40 PM
Jack, it depends upon your goal. If I have a hunting gun with me, keeping it locked up doesn't matter much. However, if I have a Rem 870 or Saiga 12 with me for defense, I damn well want it as accessible as possible.

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 3:46 PM
A shotgun does not need a locked container in your vehicle, does not need to be locked in a rack, can be located anywhere and can be concealed too. I'd have a trigger lock incase a child or who knows who gets a hold of it in your vehicle. You are responsible. Just saying best to be safer than loose when transporting.
I agree that the trigger lock is not a bad idea if there is the potential for children to access the gun, but beyond protecting yourself from potential charges in the event that a child injures or kills theirself or another or damages property, but that is a separate charge from AB106 related laws, which apply only to dealers and the sale/transfer of guns.
The law merely requires that we be provided with a lock at the time of purchase. There is no law that requires that a trigger lock be installed or used... only laws that provide penalties if the unthinkable happens and the gun was not fitted with a lock.

And yes, under the Federal gun free school zone act, a shotgun is required to be secured when within 1000ft of a school (and the trigger lock does not meet this requirement).

The shotgun being mounted in a locking carrier satisfies both the requirement of being secured within a GFSZ, and negates charges against the owner if a minor accesses the gun and causes harm.

Jack L
01-29-2011, 3:55 PM
Jack, it depends upon your goal. If I have a hunting gun with me, keeping it locked up doesn't matter much. However, if I have a Rem 870 or Saiga 12 with me for defense, I damn well want it as accessible as possible.

I agree with that for sure. Good point. Guys my age are in a time warp anyway. As a kid I walked down the street with a loaded 22 rifle to use down at the end of the street. And up north back before the loaded gun laws the ranchers never gave any thought about a rifle being loaded or not, or locked up, and LE never even looked twice at them hanging in your window. Now-a-days one needs to have a lawyer riding shotgun with you in CA so you can ask what you can and cannot do legally.

Jack L
01-29-2011, 3:58 PM
I agree that the trigger lock is not a bad idea if there is the potential for children to access the gun, but beyond protecting yourself from potential charges in the event that a child injures or kills theirself or another or damages property, but that is a separate charge from AB106 related laws, which apply only to dealers and the sale/transfer of guns.
The law merely requires that we be provided with a lock at the time of purchase. There is no law that requires that a trigger lock be installed or used... only laws that provide penalties if the unthinkable happens and the gun was not fitted with a lock.

And yes, under the Federal gun free school zone act, a shotgun is required to be secured when within 1000ft of a school (and the trigger lock does not meet this requirement).

The shotgun being mounted in a locking carrier satisfies both the requirement of being secured within a GFSZ, and negates charges against the owner if a minor accesses the gun and causes harm.

It's those school zones that are hard to remember. They are just about everywhere when you drive country or city. Almost like traps. Furthest thing from my mind since I do not even think of entering the grounds and have no children school age.

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 4:26 PM
It's those school zones that are hard to remember. They are just about everywhere when you drive country or city. Almost like traps. Furthest thing from my mind since I do not even think of entering the grounds and have no children school age.
Agreed.
Same here, which is why UOC is the furthest thing from my mind unless I'm out in the desert on my dirtbike. Then it's LOC in BLM areas.

Laser Sailor
01-29-2011, 4:37 PM
So let me see if I get this correctly, according to CA law

It is LEGAL to have an UNLOADED long arm in your car provided it is LOCKED into some kind of device (perhaps a mounted rack such as those found in police cruisers) and be inside a GFSZ?

Couple this with no laws regarding concealing a longarm and ammo stored in shellcarriers mounted to the stock is not considered loaded, sounds like it might be a good way to have a shotgun or carbine handy on the go.

Legasat
01-29-2011, 4:44 PM
Just seems like it would a beacon for thieves to break into the car....

dantodd
01-29-2011, 5:16 PM
Ca law has nothing to do with having to lock the long arm within a GFSZ. That is federal law.

rugershooter
01-29-2011, 9:44 PM
Just seems like it would a beacon for thieves to break into the car....

Not if it's concealed in the vehicle.

Baconator
01-29-2011, 10:17 PM
This is pretty sweet, keeps it out of view if you have a truck that sits high:

http://www.chiefsupply.com/Vehicle_Equipment/Gun_Racks%2CLocks/VEH004

Purple K
01-29-2011, 11:14 PM
Technically, if it is unloaded and you never travelled through a GFSZ it doesn't need to be locked.

jtmkinsd
01-30-2011, 12:32 AM
Technically, if it is unloaded and you never travelled through a GFSZ it doesn't need to be locked.

While true, have you seen the attempts at mapping K-12 schools with 1000 foot circles in any urban or suburban area? It's ridiculous.

Purple K
01-30-2011, 2:38 AM
While true, have you seen the attempts at mapping K-12 schools with 1000 foot circles in any urban or suburban area? It's ridiculous.

I never said it was practical

Merc1138
01-30-2011, 3:31 AM
Technically, if it is unloaded and you never travelled through a GFSZ it doesn't need to be locked.

Yeah, but good luck trying to drive further than a mile anywhere but out in the sticks without crossing a GFSZ. In an urban area like SF it's completely impossible(unless you count the presidio, and lengthwise across the middle of golden gate park staying away from the borders(since there are GFSZs that overlap both of these).

Purple K
01-30-2011, 4:05 AM
Yeah, but good luck trying to drive further than a mile anywhere but out in the sticks without crossing a GFSZ. In an urban area like SF it's completely impossible(unless you count the presidio, and lengthwise across the middle of golden gate park staying away from the borders(since there are GFSZs that overlap both of these).

EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. They're like roaches: they're everywhere and well hidden.

Jack L
01-30-2011, 7:17 AM
I live in a very rural area. And the main roads, if you can call them that, are all next to schools. Even way, way, way out 50 miles from the nearest town, schools are built on the road. Can't get away from them.

killmime1234
01-30-2011, 2:26 PM
Getting butt stroked smarts a bit.
SIG WORTHY

Also, I did not realize a locking rack exempts long guns from GFSZ laws. Good to know.

P.S. - QUIET, are you a lawyer? or do you just read CA PC like the rest of us read hustler? :D

Cokebottle
01-30-2011, 3:15 PM
I never said it was practical
Not legally necessary.

626.9 prohibits possession within 1000ft of a K12 school that the offender "knows or reasonably should know about".

Now, yes... Ask Theseus how that worked for him, but the deck was stacked against him.
He had an activist judge
He had an activist deputy DA
He lived locally.

Within a couple of miles of your home/work, I can understand the assertion that one "reasonably should know about" those schools.
But if one is UOC while driving down the freeway and happens to pass through a GFSZ while 25 miles from home or work, that exception should certainly apply.

In Theseus's case, he honestly didn't know about the school. It was blocked from view, and only apparent from one approach to the intersection that he never used.

If one carries such a map and follows it, it could easily be asserted as a defense that one made reasonable efforts to determine the location of the schools in the area.
But private schools are very hard to pin down, because church-schools are often not indicated on maps.

CSACANNONEER
01-30-2011, 3:28 PM
A coworker of mine was asking me what the law is regarding long arms in vehicles. I told him that as long as its unloaded its fine, doesn't have to be locked up like handguns do. More specifically, he was thinking of getting of one of those shotgun mounts that police use in their cars, or something similar, for his car. I wasn't completely sure what the law is regarding this, I told him I guess it would be ok if as long as the shotgun was unloaded, but I said I would get back to him with a more difinitive answer.

Aside from reasons for doing this in the first place, and the intelligence behind such reasoning. What are the legal ramifications of doing this? PC would be nice if someone could provide it.

Handguns DO NOT need to be LOCKED up when transporting them in a vehicle unless you are going through a GFSZ. However, they would have to be unloaded and in plain sight. Then, you'll have to also be able to prove to any LEO who stops you that you are in the right. Unfortunately, most people, including LEOs really don't know or understand the laws which apply here. Anyway, in California, it can be perfectly legal for you to transport an unlocked and unloaded handgun on the seat next to you. Anyone who disagrees with my statement is free to provide the PC that would prove me wrong. I'm sure enough about this to offer a gun related prize (+/-$20 retail) to anyone who can prove me wrong here.

[QUOTE=Cokebottle;5720421
In Theseus's case, he honestly didn't know about the school. It was blocked from view, and only apparent from one approach to the intersection that he never used.
[/QUOTE]

In Theseus's case, the fact that the school was there should have been completely irrelevent. He was on private property and the judge decide to make up his own definition of "private property" just to screw with Theseus.

Cokebottle
01-30-2011, 3:43 PM
In Theseus's case, the fact that the school was there should have been completely irrelevent. He was on private property and the judge decide to make up his own definition of "private property" just to screw with Theseus.
I agree completely. Like I said, the deck was stacked against him by the judge and the DA (thank's Cooley).
He had at least 1, and arguably 3 of the 4 exceptions apply, yet he was denied the opportunity to present any of them to the jury.
He was on private property, he was at a place of business, and he did not know about the school.

Okay... "at a place of business" could be argued because he was outside on the bench. He was even told that if he had been 2ft away inside the door, it would have been a non-issue.
"Known or reasonably should have known about"
Again, he lived in the area. He didn't know about the school, but I can see a jury agreeing with the prosecutor that he reasonably should have known about it.

But he was unarguably on private property. Where WE ALL were f**ked by this is that there is now case law supporting that for purposes of 626.9, "private property" is defined along the lines of "intoxicated in public" laws where private property is defined as anything that is not publicly accessible property. Private parking lots, our own front yards, etc....

I hope he is successful in his appeal, and I hope that the ruling in his appeal is based on this, because 626.9 is VERY clear in it's text that all private property is exempt. It does not state "private property not freely accessible to the public."

When is private property not private property? When the judge says so. That's a problem for everyone. It is only one more step to say that our homes do not qualify under the private property exemption when we have an unlocked door or window.


Need some help building an 8ft cinderblock wall around your property?
We'll set up an "airlock" style front gate system. Two steel plate gates, far enough apart for a couple of Class-A pushers. Pass through the first gate, close it, then open the 2nd gate.

We'll even build a dome over it so nobody can skydive in or land a helicopter inside :D

N6ATF
01-30-2011, 4:05 PM
Hahaha. Fix :TFH:s!

Legasat
01-30-2011, 4:13 PM
Not if it's concealed in the vehicle.

Good Point. He mentioned "like the ones in Police Cars", these are not concealed.