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senglory
01-29-2011, 8:16 AM
Hi!

I'm on H1 visa in California and would like to know if it's legal for me to go to a shooting range and get trained with firearms.

Thanks.

Heiko
01-29-2011, 8:30 AM
They will not even ask you your immigration status at the range. If you have a California driver's license you should be fine. If you decide to buy a firearm, there is a question on the form about citizenship status and if not a citizen you must provide an "A" numbers which is an alien registration number, as in "green card" number.

senglory
01-29-2011, 8:37 AM
I simply had a concern if I would violate any federal and state law regarding non-resident alien and gun posession. All this suggestions are the result of reading this link:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/02/usf-grads-fate-gun-case-now-hands-jury/

So if it's legal in CA for nonresident-alien to go to shooting range for shooting, it'll be a great relief for me! :)

BKinzey
01-29-2011, 9:13 AM
That is a shocking story.

I know citizens from other countries come here and shoot firearms either as tourists or in training programs. I'm sure some come to hunt. They aren't here as immigrants, I don't know how their status differs from the guy in the story you posted.

crackerman
01-29-2011, 9:24 AM
That is a shocking story.

I know citizens from other countries come here and shoot firearms either as tourists or in training programs. I'm sure some come to hunt. They aren't here as immigrants, I don't know how their status differs from the guy in the story you posted.

I think because he here on a student visa. Those don't allow you to stay here forever, you are not an immagrant. I often wondered how the Japanese tourists that seem to be poplar at the gun store in vegas

crackerman
01-29-2011, 9:26 AM
I simply had a concern if I would violate any federal and state law regarding non-resident alien and gun posession. All this suggestions are the result of reading this link:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/02/usf-grads-fate-gun-case-now-hands-jury/

So if it's legal in CA for nonresident-alien to go to shooting range for shooting, it'll be a great relief for me! :)

Senglory what type of visa do you have? Also go get a hunting license, that should help cover you.

Heiko
01-29-2011, 9:35 AM
That is the first I have ever heard of a prohibition against non-immigrants possessing guns. By non-immigrant I am including people legally here on visas like you. I know of people who were here on visas who were able to purchase firearms, including handguns, without any problems during DROS.

Me thinks the part about his buddies being suspected terrorists had something to do with his plight.

bbiggun
01-29-2011, 10:22 AM
The California State law does not prohibit a non-immigrant alien from handling nor possessing a firearm. However, the federal law requires a person with a non-immigrant alien status to acquire a hunting license before handling or purchasing a firearm.

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 10:53 AM
I simply had a concern if I would violate any federal and state law regarding non-resident alien and gun posession. All this suggestions are the result of reading this link:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/02/usf-grads-fate-gun-case-now-hands-jury/

So if it's legal in CA for nonresident-alien to go to shooting range for shooting, it'll be a great relief for me! :)
As a non-resident alien, to legally possess a gun you must have a valid hunting license.

Quick stop by Big-5 and you're legal.

nick
01-29-2011, 11:19 AM
As a non-resident alien, to legally possess a gun you must have a valid hunting license.

Quick stop by Big-5 and you're legal.

Gotta take the hunter's safety class first.

odysseus
01-29-2011, 11:44 AM
This is an non issue as far as I know. For as long as I can remember tourists and other visitors have come to the US and done "shoots" under supervision, essentially renting at a range, without any problem so long as they are not prohibited (as per the law) people.

SupportGeek
01-29-2011, 11:55 AM
This is an non issue as far as I know. For as long as I can remember tourists and other visitors have come to the US and done "shoots" under supervision, essentially renting at a range, without any problem so long as they are not prohibited (as per the law) people.

Yes, but tourists come here on a "Non-immigrant" class of visa, even if its something like a Canadian crossing for a visit, its still considered a non-immigrant visa, even though Canadians do not need a tourist class visa, or even a stamp when crossing.
Supposedly the law say that a prohibited person is anyone here on a non-immigrant class visa. But is renting a firearm at a range and using it only during that visit considered possession? If so, then the mere act of touching a firearm is enough for a felony charge, which is bullsh*t imo. Possession is usually ownership.
As far as I can tell, its one of those laws that they dont actively enforce on ranges, hell, every range I know of that rents will let you rent and shoot with any government issued ID, not just a US ID. So really, maybe the ranges dont consider it possession?

JDay
01-29-2011, 12:03 PM
I think because he here on a student visa. Those don't allow you to stay here forever, you are not an immagrant. I often wondered how the Japanese tourists that seem to be poplar at the gun store in vegas

An H-1B visa is not a student visa, it is a temporary work visa.

JDay
01-29-2011, 12:04 PM
As a non-resident alien, to legally possess a gun you must have a valid hunting license.

Quick stop by Big-5 and you're legal.

Gotta take the hunter's safety class first.

I think a fishing license works too.

jtmkinsd
01-29-2011, 12:11 PM
As a non-resident alien, to legally possess a gun you must have a valid hunting license.

Quick stop by Big-5 and you're legal.

+1

And don't hang around people that drive around with pipe bombs in their trunk and post videos on how to make bombs. :thumbsup:

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2011, 12:50 PM
...For as long as I can remember tourists and other visitors have come to the US and done "shoots" under supervision, essentially renting at a range, without any problem so long as they are not prohibited (as per the law) people.

Foreign tourists without hunting licenses are prohibited persons as per the law. They are in the same category as convicted felons when it comes to possessing firearms or ammunition.

I think the cheapest/easiest hunting license for a tourist to get is Texas's special 5 day non-resident license. But if you need to use firearms for more than 5 days you would need to get a different one.

Foreign tourists didn't become prohibited persons until after 09/11/01. ATF hasn't really been pushing the change, which is probably why most rental ranges don't know about it.

bbiggun
01-29-2011, 1:09 PM
Fishing license does not work. Been there done that. I went through the hunter's ed and got my hunting lincense before I was able to finish my DROS.

JDay
01-29-2011, 1:17 PM
No hunting license required, this is straight from the ATF.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#aliens-purchase

Q: May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?
An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]

However, you must be here on an immigrant visa.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#possession-restrictions

Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?
Yes, a person who —

Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
Is a fugitive from justice;
Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.

fd15k
01-29-2011, 1:36 PM
Foreign tourists without hunting licenses are prohibited persons as per the law. They are in the same category as convicted felons when it comes to possessing firearms or ammunition.

I think the cheapest/easiest hunting license for a tourist to get is Texas's special 5 day non-resident license. But if you need to use firearms for more than 5 days you would need to get a different one.

Foreign tourists didn't become prohibited persons until after 09/11/01. ATF hasn't really been pushing the change, which is probably why most rental ranges don't know about it.

I was under impression that non-immigrant aliens are prohibited from possessing and buying without exemptions kicking in (waiver, hunting license, etc). Felons, on the other hand are also prohibited from handling.

Now the question is whether possession applies to indoor shooting ranges where firearms are rented. I don't believe it does, because while one can handle firearms there, he can't walk away with them. Similar case with gun stores.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2011, 2:17 PM
I was under impression that non-immigrant aliens are prohibited from possessing and buying without exemptions kicking in (waiver, hunting license, etc). Felons, on the other hand are also prohibited from handling.

Now the question is whether possession applies to indoor shooting ranges where firearms are rented. I don't believe it does, because while one can handle firearms there, he can't walk away with them. Similar case with gun stores.

Under Federal law, non-immigrant aliens without hunting licenses and felons are treated exactly the same. It is against the law for them...

...to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess
in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive
any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.

California and other States have additional restrictions on a felon having firearms in "his or her possession or under his or her custody or control" that don't apply to aliens.

I believe that the Feds consider renting a firearm to be "possessing in or affecting commerce", but I don't know that for sure.

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 2:19 PM
Yes, but tourists come here on a "Non-immigrant" class of visa, even if its something like a Canadian crossing for a visit, its still considered a non-immigrant visa, even though Canadians do not need a tourist class visa, or even a stamp when crossing.
Supposedly the law say that a prohibited person is anyone here on a non-immigrant class visa. But is renting a firearm at a range and using it only during that visit considered possession? If so, then the mere act of touching a firearm is enough for a felony charge, which is bullsh*t imo. Possession is usually ownership.
As far as I can tell, its one of those laws that they dont actively enforce on ranges, hell, every range I know of that rents will let you rent and shoot with any government issued ID, not just a US ID. So really, maybe the ranges dont consider it possession?
No, it is not actively enforced, but it could be.

"Ownership" is not required for a "felon in possession" charge, and the same would apply to any other prohibited person, such as a non-immigrant alien without a hunting license.

Case law now allows a non-prohibited person to own guns while cohabitating with a prohibited person provided that the prohibited person has no access to the guns. The guns must be secured and the prohibited person must not have the key or the combination to the safe. When not in the safe, the guns must be under the direct control of the non-prohibited person or otherwise located where the prohibited person does not have access (IE, you can loan your gun to a non-prohibited friend so long as he understands that your felon roommate can not be allowed to touch them).

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 2:25 PM
I think a fishing license works too.
Nope.

USC 922(y)(2)(A)
admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

No exception for fishing license.
I also don't see anything about the Hunter Safety Course, but that may be a requirement under DFG regulations for the issue of the hunting license.

JDay
01-29-2011, 2:39 PM
I believe that the Feds consider renting a firearm to be "possessing in or affecting commerce", but I don't know that for sure.

They consider taking a crap and flushing to effect commerce. That water crosses state lines.

SupportGeek
01-29-2011, 3:03 PM
No, it is not actively enforced, but it could be.

"Ownership" is not required for a "felon in possession" charge, and the same would apply to any other prohibited person, such as a non-immigrant alien without a hunting license.


Sort of sad, legally admitted, follow all legal channels to live here, required to follow all laws, and pay taxes, yet denied the right even to self defense.
Nice standards the government has.

bbiggun
01-29-2011, 3:05 PM
My thought exactly! I couldn't agree more.

hk91666
01-29-2011, 3:28 PM
So me taking my nephew from England shooting who was visiting may have been illegal? Wow even supervised with my own firearms! Or am I missing something here guys.

SupportGeek
01-29-2011, 4:03 PM
So me taking my nephew from England shooting who was visiting may have been illegal? Wow even supervised with my own firearms! Or am I missing something here guys.

Yes, because the federal government chooses to view LEGAL visitors and visaholders as if they were convicted felons.
These are people that the fed authorized as ok to live and be here, but hey, you arent any better than a felon.
All men are created equal my *****
Unless he paid his "I may touch a gun tax" of $150 for a hunting license, and whatever it cost for a hunter safety course

hk91666
01-29-2011, 4:10 PM
Yes, because the federal government chooses to view LEGAL visitors and visaholders as if they were convicted felons.
Unless he paid his "I may touch a gun tax" of $150 for a hunting license, and whatever it cost for a hunter safety course

I have read many gun magazine articles about other training foreign visitors in order to educate them. Didn't realize it wasn't legal. This really SUX. Thanks for insight/clarification.

sw99
01-29-2011, 4:21 PM
Hi!

I'm on H1 visa in California and would like to know if it's legal for me to go to a shooting range and get trained with firearms.

Thanks.

depends on who does the training. If a friend does, and is supervising you the whole time ... no-one will be any the wiser.

If I recall correctly, the handgun class I took, they did not even ask for ID before the class. ( The one basic requirement they had was you had to behave in a mature manner ). Afterwards, I took the Handgun Cert thing, that's when my ID was checked. But that was a whole seperate - and optional - thing.

Other places/instructors may be more cautious.

To buy an handgun ... yep, your ID, visa status, and length of residency in CA, will all be checked.

BTW attending one class doesn't make you "trained" in firearms. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing!

senglory
01-29-2011, 4:30 PM
Ok, but what can you say regarding this link? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145870&page=2

Looks very suspicious for me...

NorCal_M&P15-22
01-29-2011, 4:31 PM
I own multiple firearms (all legally purchased), an NRA member, I have no hunting license, and been living in beautiful California for 25 years.

and I'm still a Canadian citizen

SupportGeek
01-29-2011, 4:59 PM
I own multiple firearms (all legally purchased), an NRA member, I have no hunting license, and been living in beautiful California for 25 years.

and I'm still a Canadian citizen

I assume you have a green card

NorCal_M&P15-22
01-29-2011, 5:20 PM
I assume you have a green card

in addition to my very own 2 and a half year old anchor baby :)

ipser
01-29-2011, 5:32 PM
Hmmm....I realize that much of the discussion is in regard to the right of aliens to self defense, for which obtaining a hunting license is probably the best legal solution, but...

After reading this thread, the article, and the other thread referenced, let me ask this question directly: Is it illegal for someone on an H1 (work) or F1 (student) visa to handle or shoot a firearm under the continuous supervision of the legal owner of said firearm? Is that considered "posession"? (Never mind for the moment whether the law is enforced without pipebombs involved.) The conviction seemed to hinge not on whether the alien was under supervision but only whether there was intent to handle the firearm. The pipebombs explain the pursuit of the conviction but not the conviction itself.

SupportGeek
01-29-2011, 6:45 PM
in addition to my very own 2 and a half year old anchor baby :)

Green Card = Immigrant alien, as a Canadian you can be both a US and Canadian Citizen should you so choose.

a1c
01-29-2011, 6:50 PM
I went to ranges when I still was an H1b visa worker and I didn't have a hunting license.

Little did I know at the time that I was, effectively, breaking federal law.

Ranges don't ask you for your immigration papers. But if you don't want to get in trouble, get your hunting license. As a non-resident alien, you need it, even if you're just purchasing ammunition or C&R firearms.

nick
01-29-2011, 6:58 PM
Well, this is messed up.

bbiggun
01-29-2011, 7:07 PM
For anyone who's interested in learning more on this issue, you can refer to the FAQ on the ATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html

BKinzey
01-29-2011, 7:23 PM
From the above link:

Q: I’m a nonimmigrant alien who is coming to the United States for two weeks to go hunting. Can I rent a firearm in the United States to use on this trip? What if I want to go to a shooting range one day — can I rent a firearm there as well?

As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful. The hunting license does not have to be from the State where you will be possessing the guns and ammunition.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5) and (9), 922(g)(5)(B) and 922(y)]

nobody_special
01-29-2011, 9:14 PM
After reading this thread, the article, and the other thread referenced, let me ask this question directly: Is it illegal for someone on an H1 (work) or F1 (student) visa to handle or shoot a firearm under the continuous supervision of the legal owner of said firearm? Is that considered "posession"?

These are non-immigrant visas, so the answers to your questions are normally "yes" and "yes." A non-immigrant alien who picks up a gun or even one round of .22LR has committed a felony.

If the alien in question has a hunting license, then it is fine. A small game license is sufficient. Before we were married, my wife actually bought guns (in New Mexico), passing the NICS check several times while on an F1 visa. NICS usually gave a "delay" response at first, then "proceed." We were very careful to ensure that her small game hunting license was renewed before it expired. Now that she is a lawful permanent resident, the hunting license is no longer needed.

Also, I have read that it may be legal for a non-immigrant alien to rent a gun from a shooting range which has an FFL for the purpose of shooting at that range. There may be some exceptions to prohibited possession rules while on the premises of an FFL. It makes sense when you consider people handle guns in a gun shop before the NICS check is done. I have not investigated this though, and I would not count on this without a checking it thoroughly.

Cokebottle
01-29-2011, 11:02 PM
After reading this thread, the article, and the other thread referenced, let me ask this question directly: Is it illegal for someone on an H1 (work) or F1 (student) visa to handle or shoot a firearm under the continuous supervision of the legal owner of said firearm? Is that considered "posession"?
Yes.
A prohibited person is a prohibited person whether they are a felon, convicted of DV, 5150, or a non-resident alien.
They cannot legally have any kind of access to firearms.

JDay
01-30-2011, 4:44 AM
Yes.
A prohibited person is a prohibited person whether they are a felon, convicted of DV, 5150, or a non-resident alien.
They cannot legally have any kind of access to firearms.

A 5150 does not make someone prohibited, it's only a temporary hold for evaluation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Involuntary_psychiatric_hold)#5150_criteria

5150 criteria

The criteria for writing requires probable cause. This includes danger to self, danger to others together with some indication, prior to the administering of the hold, of symptoms of a mental disorder, and/or grave disability—as noted below. The conditions must exist under the context of a mental illness.

Danger to self: The person must be an immediate threat to themselves, usually by being suicidal. Someone who is severely depressed and wishes to die would fall under this category (though they generally have to have expressed a plan to commit suicide and not just a wish to die).
Danger to others: The person must be an immediate threat to someone else's safety.
Gravely disabled:
Adult (patients over 18 years of age): The person's mental condition prevents him/her from being able to provide for food, clothing, and/or shelter, and there is no indication that anyone is willing or able to assist him/her in procuring these needs. This does not necessarily mean homeless, as a homeless person who is able to seek housing (even in a temporary shelter) when weather demands it would not fall under this category. Also, the mere lack of resources to provide food, clothing, or shelter is not dispositive; the inability must be caused by the psychiatric condition.
Minor (patients under 18 years of age): The person is unable to provide for his/her food, clothing, and/or shelter or to make appropriate use of them even if these are supplied directly—for example, a psychotic adolescent who refuses to eat because he/she believes his/her parents are poisoning them.

sw99
01-30-2011, 9:14 AM
I don't think anyone has posted this link yet...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html#nonimmigrant-possession

ipser
01-30-2011, 9:30 AM
I don't think anyone has posted this link yet...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html#nonimmigrant-possession

Interestingly, "possession" on this FAQ is always within the context of purchase (i.e. purchase and take possession).

I don't doubt, as several have pointed out, that by the letter of the law, and by inference from the case cited in the OP, that non-immigrants are equivalent to felons with respect to firearms.

But if so this has got to be one of the most commonly violated gun laws on the books.

Of particular interest to international tourists interested in public access shooting ranges in the United States while on holiday, especially gun-friendly states include Kentucky, Tennessee, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, New Hampshire, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah, among others. All of these typically have public access shooting ranges with rental guns available at a modest fee. Ammunition costs for rental guns varies, of course, but 9 mm Luger (usually the cheapest service caliber round) is often available for around $19 per 100 at Walmart, or slightly higher ($22–25) at most public access shooting ranges. Costs of .22 LR cartridges often run less than $0.02 per round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_ranges_in_the_United_States

Heiko
01-30-2011, 10:40 AM
This is such a strange law. I have personal knowledge of someone who was here on a non-immigrant work visa who purchased guns, including handguns, from a California FFL, went through DROS and 10-day wait, and got the guns without issues. All forms were filled out completely and truthfully.

Is this federal law relatively new or is it not something caught in DROS?

ipser
01-30-2011, 10:50 AM
This is such a strange law. I have personal knowledge of someone who was here on a non-immigrant work visa who purchased guns, including handguns, from a California FFL, went through DROS and 10-day wait, and got the guns without issues. All forms were filled out completely and truthfully. Is this federal law relatively new or is it not something caught in DROS?
Most likely he obtained a hunting safety certificate/license.

Heiko
01-30-2011, 12:02 PM
Most likely he obtained a hunting safety certificate/license.

Nope. No hunting license but a BFSC back in the day. I'm not sure when those fell out of use and things went to the HSC.

This is just such a weird issue and I would like to know whether CA DOJ is connected with the Feds on this type of stuff.

bbiggun
01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
It's most likely an oversight. I have a co-worker who got his first pistol without any problem but was denialed on a second pistol purchase. He then had to obtain a hunting license to finish the second DROS. Like the law states, it's a felony if it's caught.

Heiko
01-30-2011, 1:01 PM
It's most likely an oversight. I have a co-worker who got his first pistol without any problem but was denialed on a second pistol purchase. He then had to obtain a hunting license to finish the second DROS. Like the law states, it's a felony if it's caught.

Wow. I know this guy got 5 or 6 handguns while here on a work visa. Must be major oversights or the DROS system doesn't account for visa type at all. :confused:

a1c
01-30-2011, 1:51 PM
The CA DOJ does not understand immigration laws very well - and who can blame them, they're a mess.

For instance, when I recently DROSed a handgun bought from another Calgunner here, even though I provided them with statements documenting my stay in California for well over a year, they used the date of issuance of my green card as the "entry date" (you must have been in the US for 90 days at least since you last trip outside the country in order to pick up your firearm).

I called the DOJ when this happened (it delayed my wait by several weeks), and they were somewhat apologetic, but told me that's what they do, even though they understand it doesn't make much sense. They needed an arbitrary date, and they picked that one.

Even some federal administrations don't understand those laws. For instance, when I applied for my FFL03, ATF sent me back my application asking me to fill in the part for non-immigrant aliens. Even though I am NOT a non-immigrant alien (a copy of my green card was included). I filled it out anyway, included my hunting license number, added a letter explaining why I didn't fill this out in the first place, and a few weeks later got my C&R license.

Immigration paperwork and laws don't make sense half the time. Federal law for instance requires aliens to keep papers on them at all times documenting their immigration status, but if you're a visa worker, all you get are letter-sized papers that are completely arcane for most LEOs to read. And ironically, USCIS themselves recommend you store those papers in a safe place, and only carry them when you have to leave the country to re-enter it later.

A note on the range thing: remember that the federal law forbids not just possession of firearms to non-immigrant aliens who don't have a hunting license, but also ammunition. Even if you were to argue that renting or using a gun at a gun range is not technically possession (which is probably debatable), buying ammunition remains illegal as well.

fd15k
02-04-2011, 10:09 AM
http://nefafoundation.org/file/FeaturedDocs/U.S._v_Moussaoui_Complaint.pdf
http://nefafoundation.org/file/FeaturedDocs/U.S._v_KMoussaoui_Verdict.pdf

MindBuilder
02-04-2011, 11:38 AM
I've heard there are gun ranges in Nevada where you can rent a machine gun for use on site without having to get a license. But then maybe there is no prohibition on possession or loaning of machine guns without a license in Nevada. Perhaps there is just a requirement that the owner get a federal tax stamp, and after that maybe there is little restriction.

BoxesOfLiberty
02-04-2011, 12:34 PM
...Possession is usually ownership...

I have to disagree with this. Possession relates to control, not ownership.


If you are renting an apartment, you have lawful possession of it.
If your cousin loans you his car and you are driving it, you don't own it, but you do have possession of it.
If you are driving a stolen car, you don't own it, but you are in possession of it (and possibly the dead hooker in the trunk), even if you did get it from your "cousin".


Likewise, if your friend loans you a firearm and you take it to the range without him, you are in possession of it.

On the other hand if you and your friend go to the range together and he stands next to you while you shoot his gun, he *may* still be in possession of it.

I have always assumed that it was okay for me to let friend's shoot my RAWs as long as I am present, but I know I cannot lend them, and just to be safe, I take that to mean I can't walk away and do other things (e.g. shoot on another lane) while a friend is shooting one.

Mimi_T
02-04-2011, 1:09 PM
Sort of sad, legally admitted, follow all legal channels to live here, required to follow all laws, and pay taxes, yet denied the right even to self defense.
Nice standards the government has.

Actually, what you describe is an immigrant alien. Immigrant aliens are fine to legally own guns in the US. :)

All you have to do if you're an immigrant alien is to bring some extra paperwork (3 utility bills instead of 1, plus your green card instead of just your state ID or US driving license), and you're treated exactly as a US citizen. (Which is nice, since the person is legally living here, paying tax etc., so it's fair that they can also have a right to self defense.)

The complication is if you're a non-immigrating alien, such as a student, a tourist etc., without an immigrant visa.

The DROS paperwork has a whole section where you're supposed to answer if you're an immigrating alien or a non-immigrating alien. Someone that's not here to live in the US can still buy a gun and go hunting, provided they follow the whole thing to do it legally. So I'd think OP's case would be even simpler since he just wants to go to a range/rent.

Although as some have pointed out, the ranges just renting guns and letting you shot them in the presence of the staff don't enforce any rule against tourists, usually. Hence how all the tourists go to Vegas and shoot machine guns. OP should stay in the safe and follow the rules with the hunting license etc. though.

edsel6502
02-04-2011, 2:28 PM
To re-iterate some of the previously posted information and to add my own personal experience....

1. Take a Hunting Safety Course and then get a hunting license. This should cover you legally if you wish to train and/or purchase a firearm. This is pretty much what I did when I was a H1Ber.

2. If you are purchasing a firearm, CA DOJ requires that you have your i94 show that you have been in the country for at least 90 days or your freshly minted 'green card' was issued at least 90 days ago.

On a work visa, everytime you leave the country your 90 days resets to zero. CA DOJ uses the i-94 to establish residency even though you can produce 6 months of PG&E at the same address. I used to get sent on business trips every 80 days or so. Couldn't buy a darn gun for a year.

Once you get your green card, you will then have the longest 90 day wait ever. After that, you can come and go out of the country and go directly from the airport upon arrival to the land of the free to your LGS and have at it.

Cheers,
/ed

fd15k
02-04-2011, 2:31 PM
1. Take a Hunting Safety Course and then get a hunting license. This should cover you legally if you wish to train and/or purchase a firearm. This is pretty much what I did when I was a H1Ber.




Alaska small game license can be purchased online for $20 I believe, no safety course is required. Based on the text of the law, hunting license from ANY state satisfies the requirement.

ipser
02-07-2011, 9:06 AM
I asked ATF:

I read your faq (http://www.atf.gov/contact/faq/). It seems to suggest that it is illegal for a foreign tourist to rent a firearm at a gun range. Is this a correct reading?

According to wiki, this is a common practice:

"Of particular interest to international tourists interested in public
access shooting ranges in the United States while on holiday, especially
gun-friendly states include Kentucky, Tennessee, Florida, Alabama,
Georgia, New Hampshire, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah, among others. All of these typically have public access shooting ranges with rental guns available
at a modest fee."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_ranges_in_the_United_States

See also:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=487409

I would appreciate a clarification on this issue, and perhaps you might
add it to your FAQ as there is obviously a lot of confusion on this
question.

I received this reply:

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email in
which you inquired about loan and/or rent of firearms, including to
nonimmigrant aliens.

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for
temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have
reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms under Federal law. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5),
922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] Additional information concerning
unlicensed persons is available at:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html.

Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or
receiving firearms and ammunition in the United States. There are
exceptions to this general prohibition.

The exceptions are as follows:
1. nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting
license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;
2. nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in
a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports
or hunting
trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade
organization devoted to the collection, competitive use or other
sporting use of
firearms;
3. certain diplomats, if the firearms are for official duties;
4. officials of foreign governments, if the firearms are for
official duties, or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the
U.S. State
Department;
5. foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments
entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and
6. persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the
U.S. Attorney General.

In addition, ATF does not have any jurisdiction over State laws. You
should forward all inquiries as to State law to your State Attorney
General's Office. They will be able to answer any questions regarding
firearms laws in your state. A list is available online at
http://www.naag.org. Also, we suggest that you seek private legal
counsel.

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF
office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at:
http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

My guess is that the practice is technically illegal but generally unenforced. The ATF seems almost to be inviting willful ignorance on the part of shooting ranges.

If anyone knows of a prosecution that doesn't involve pipe bombs, post here.

SupportGeek
02-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Actually, what you describe is an immigrant alien. Immigrant aliens are fine to legally own guns in the US. :)


There are other Non-immigrant classes of visa that cover the above, working visas, fiancee visa's etc. If you are the fiancee/husband of a USC, the law sets you upfor yourself or your family to be victims.

fd15k
02-07-2011, 12:23 PM
There are other Non-immigrant classes of visa that cover the above, working visas, fiancee visa's etc. If you are the fiancee/husband of a USC, the law sets you upfor yourself or your family to be victims.

fiancee visa would fall into immigrant visa category.

SupportGeek
02-07-2011, 1:18 PM
fiancee visa would fall into immigrant visa category.

No sir

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=fcf75b836ea73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=3d7fa6c515083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD
The K-visa categories for fiancé(e)s of U.S. citizens and their accompanying minor children (K-1 and K-2 visas) were created to speed up the immigration process for such individuals so they could travel more quickly to the United States.

By allowing a fiancé(e) and his/her accompanying minor children to be admitted to the United States as nonimmigrants, fiancé(e)s can be spared a long separation from their intended spouse, while continuing their processing for an immigrant visa after the marriage takes place.'

Even after marriage takes place, and the AOS (Adjustment of Status) is begun, it can take from 3-6 months average to get a green card, barring anything unusual like an RFE or anything. CA being notoriously slow because there are a lot of immigrants, its on the higher side of that estimate.

fd15k
02-07-2011, 1:21 PM
No sir

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=fcf75b836ea73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=3d7fa6c515083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD

I stand corrected. Thanks!

GOEX FFF
02-07-2011, 2:09 PM
Foreign tourists didn't become prohibited persons until after 09/11/01. ATF hasn't really been pushing the change, which is probably why most rental ranges don't know about it.

This reminds me back in the early 90's (Pre/911, when Foreign tourist were legally allowed to shoot without a HL) My Father and I use to go to the old SOF conventions in Las Vegas. At one of the MG rentals, after the SOF MG shoot, there was a HUGE group of Japanese tourists that showed up (most had freshly bought OD and desert boonies on) :chris: and shot almost all day long. They must have dropped a thousand each on rentals and ammo.
The highlight was after every time they'd fire, there would be an outbreak of "oooooooo's & ahhhhhh's" followed by laughter, especially after a burst from the M2 .50 BMG. It was so much fun to watch them shoot. :D

Cokebottle
02-07-2011, 5:58 PM
My guess is that the practice is technically illegal but generally unenforced. The ATF seems almost to be inviting willful ignorance on the part of shooting ranges.
No "technically" about it. It is illegal... and a felony (which will result in the revocation of a visa and deportation after time is served)

Generally unenforced, perhaps, but the same applies to felons renting guns at the range. People have overheard comments at various ranges to the effect of "I shoot here because they don't do background checks to rent".
Yet there is another thread started a few days ago regarding a felon getting 10 years for a trip to the range.
If anyone knows of a prosecution that doesn't involve pipe bombs, post here.
Lack of prosecution/enforcement is not a license to violate the law.
Keep it clean and just get a hunting license. Check into the Alaska non-resident license mentioned above... it seems cheap and doesn't require a class. BATFE simply requires a hunting license issued by a state.