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Santa Cruz Armory
08-27-2006, 9:39 PM
Is the Yugo SKS a C&R firearm that needs to be entered into my bound book?? I know it's not CA C&R eligible, I just need to know if I need to enter it.

Thanks!!

Kestryll
08-27-2006, 10:12 PM
As I understand it if you did not buy it under your license then you don't have to enter it.
If you buy it under your 03FFL it goes in the book.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-27-2006, 10:57 PM
Federal law says...

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.


So while you are a licensed collector you should log each receipt and disposition of a C&R firearm. The law makes no distinction of whether or not you "used" your license.

Kestryll
08-28-2006, 12:12 AM
AII could well be right as well, I've heard both versions as 'definitive'.
The part that made the most sense to me was did a copy of your license go to the other person to be loggd in their book? If yes then definitely log it in yours. If no then your in the 'grey zone'. I don't think it can do any harm to log it even if it's not required.
Better to be safe than sorry.

EOD Guy
08-28-2006, 6:08 AM
Is the Yugo SKS a C&R firearm that needs to be entered into my bound book?? I know it's not CA C&R eligible, I just need to know if I need to enter it.

Thanks!!

The Yugo SKS is a C&R firearm in California. California uses the same definition for C&R as the Feds and they reference 27 CFR for the definition.


AII could well be right as well, I've heard both versions as 'definitive'.
The part that made the most sense to me was did a copy of your license go to the other person to be loggd in their book? If yes then definitely log it in yours. If no then your in the 'grey zone'. I don't think it can do any harm to log it even if it's not required.
Better to be safe than sorry.

It is not a "grey zone." BATF has put out at least two letters informing C&R FFL holders that ALL C&R firearms need to be logged while the collector is licensed, regardless of how they were obtained.

Here is one of the letters.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/011801ffl.htm

metalhead357
08-28-2006, 6:10 AM
The Yugo SKS is a C&R firearm in California. California uses the same definition for C&R as the Feds and they reference 27 CFR for the definition.


How'd ya' figure that? It aint 50 years old:confused:

stevie
08-28-2006, 6:27 AM
Remember you are dealing with federal law not state. So, yes, you should put the Yugo SKS in your bound book regardless of how you purchased it.

chiefcrash
08-28-2006, 7:14 AM
hold on guys:

Did this Yugo SKS have it's grenade launcher removed? If so, it's been modified from it's original configuration, and is no longer a C&R firearm...

stevie
08-28-2006, 7:16 AM
There are 2 types of Yugo SKS, Mod. 59 (No Launcher)and 59/66 (Launcher).

ocabj
08-28-2006, 7:27 AM
Log anything that you acquired that would be considered a C&R under Federal law while you possess an C&R FFL license. As a C&R FFL holder, you are required to log any C&R firearms as defined by Federal law that you acquire or dipose of while you hold a C&R FFL.

As far as grey area firearms like the modified 59/66 or bare receivers and barrelled receivers, I would also log them anyway. It's better to log more than necessary rather than not logging what is necessary.

EOD Guy
08-28-2006, 8:51 AM
How'd ya' figure that? It aint 50 years old:confused:

Since it is on the C&R list, it doesn't have to be 50 years old to be a C&R. That is only one of the criteria that makes a C&R firearm.

Like I said, California uses the Federal definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does California. There is nothing in California law that says a firearm has to 50 years old to be a C&R.

metalhead357
08-28-2006, 9:11 AM
Since it is on the C&R list, it doesn't have to be 50 years old to be a C&R. That is only one of the criteria that makes a C&R firearm.

Like I said, California uses the Federal definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does California. There is nothing in California law that says a firearm has to 50 years old to be a C&R.

As per the DOJ website FAQ #14

14.I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?
Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement. Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:
a. Bla Blahb.(PC section 12072(d))

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm

Seems to me you need to MEET BOTH the Fed list AND the 50 year requirment...........

ocabj
08-28-2006, 9:14 AM
Logging a firearm as a C&R in your bound book has nothing to do with what California defines is a C&R firearm. Your bound book is being kept under Federal guidelines for C&R holders.

metalhead357
08-28-2006, 9:31 AM
Thanks OC~

I get that but me-thinks that once you've either your dealing with a modded one coming into state, or a sale here to a PP then I'd think you're nearing "outta defintion" for Fed..... and if the Gun isn't 50 years old (for the cali connection) then it cant even be a FTF transfer without a trip to the other FFL'r grade and the 10 day wait.

Sorry for the interupt in this one folks~ These Yugos just have me asking questions everywhere;)

As to specific post....
Everyone I've known with a C&R has logged in ALL firearms, whether C&R or not. As already mentioned, overzealous bookwork might not be a bad thing.

TonyNorCal
08-28-2006, 10:01 AM
As some have mentioned above, the Yugo 59/66 is a C&R designated firearm. The Feds/ATF determine what is and isn't C&R. States have the ability to place restrictions on which firearms can be sold within their borders and under what circumstances. The 50 year rule is a California incarnation. It says that in order to use your C&R to order from out of state or to do a no-FFL transfer within California the long gun must be geater than 50 years.

So when someone says something isn't C&R eligible in California they don't mean it's not a C&R. They mean it isn't eligible to be purchased with the C&R when one is in California. Make sense? California hasn't made their own definition of C&Rs, they've only placed restrictions on what you can order with your license.

But California law doesn't change the designation of a C&R. If the ATF says it's a C&R then it is. The ATF requires you to log in all C&R firearms you acquire while licensed. It doesn't specify whether or not you used your license to acquire them. So even if you purchase a Yugo 59/66 from a dealer the safe thing to do would be to log it in. Doesn't cost you anything and better to have it than not.

Now, on the question of whether modded C&Rs are still C&Rs and the whole 'original military configuration' thing. This seems like the biggest grey area. By a strict interpretation of this removing the bayonet from a Russian SKS would negate C&R. However, it doesn't seem likely to me that this is what's intended. Look at large distributors and Fulton Armory.

You can order a Garand in .308 from Fulton Armory. One which they build (using a USGI receiver). And they will send it to a C&R. Same with their M1 carbines. My take is that if a visible entity like that feels this is acceptable then it's probably not an issue. If it were I am sure they and others would have heard by now. I'm not saying do it because Fulton does. I'm just saying it seems unlikely to me that if it were illegal they'd be doing it.

But it's an area that doesn't seem especially clear and if you ask on Gunboards you'll get different answers.

EOD Guy
08-28-2006, 10:01 AM
As per the DOJ website FAQ #14


http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm

Seems to me you need to MEET BOTH the Fed list AND the 50 year requirment...........


No, you are comparing apples and oranges. In order to transfer a firearm between unlicensed individuals without dealer involvement, the firearm must be a C&R rifle or shotgun AND be over 50 years old. It has nothing to do with the definition of a C&R firearm. The California law is saying that C&R rifles and shotguns that are less than 50 years old cannot be transferred in that manner.

EOD Guy
08-28-2006, 10:05 AM
So when someone says something isn't C&R eligible in California they don't mean it's not a C&R. They mean it isn't eligible to be purchased with the C&R when one is in California. Make sense? California hasn't made their own definition of C&Rs, they've only placed restrictions on what you can order with your license.


True with one exception. If you have both a C&R FFL and a COE from the state, you can purchase any C&R firearm from a dealer and bypass the 10 day waiting period.

TonyNorCal
08-28-2006, 10:34 AM
True with one exception. If you have both a C&R FFL and a COE from the state, you can purchase any C&R firearm from a dealer and bypass the 10 day waiting period.


Exactly. I have both and have done just that. And just so people are clear, that's from a California dealer and you're still required to DROS. You just get to to cash and carry same day. Ordering from out of state the long gun only, greater than 50 year rule is still in effect.

I have a fun experience cash and carryin two M44s from big 5 lol.

metalhead357
08-28-2006, 10:34 AM
No, you are comparing apples and oranges. In order to transfer a firearm between unlicensed individuals without dealer involvement, the firearm must be a C&R rifle or shotgun AND be over 50 years old. It has nothing to do with the definition of a C&R firearm. The California law is saying that C&R rifles and shotguns that are less than 50 years old cannot be transferred in that manner.

Thank you EOD and Tony.... both those clear up some of my own apparent misconceptions about C&R.

But all this begs the question then.....for a NON C&R's

May a Yugo 59/(or modded 66) be transfered between two non licencees without going through DROS?

I've littearlly missed out on two deals because of not wanting to travel TWO times to go hassle with DROS is some faraway local on what 'should' be a C&R but doesnt seem to be considered as much by more peeps and than I care to count.....while I've also been told on two seperate boards by mods that the 59 CANT be transferred this way; I personally just got done telling someone said same ((AND i REALLY FRIGGIN HATE PASSING BAD/WRONG INFO!!!!))

So PLEASE correct me in this one (and any relevant links you might have)
Thanks,

And back to the original post//////

I'd say call BATF...but I fear you might get an EX Cali DOJ worker:cool:

TonyNorCal
08-28-2006, 10:45 AM
Metal, a Yugo 59 or modded Yugo 59/66 are both less than 50 years of age. So in California they are required to be DROSd. Even two people with C&Rs would be required to go to a deaeler and DROS. The Yugo 59 will be eligible for non-FFL transfer in about 3 years . .

The only SKS you can transfer in California with no DROS is a Russian (most of them). All others are either not C&R or C&R but under 50 years..

metalhead357
08-28-2006, 11:22 AM
Metal, a Yugo 59 or modded Yugo 59/66 are both less than 50 years of age. So in California they are required to be DROSd. ..

LOL! EXACTLY as I've always heard it....now you might understand the confusion when one reads (i.e. ME) in this thread a C&R (any aspect of it)and its use on a Yugo... bound book or otherwise........ it 'dang confusing to read C&R and that the gun is defined as C&R but somehow is not C&R eleigible....

Metalhead

Kestryll
08-28-2006, 12:06 PM
The Yugo SKS is a C&R firearm in California. California uses the same definition for C&R as the Feds and they reference 27 CFR for the definition.

It is not a "grey zone." BATF has put out at least two letters informing C&R FFL holders that ALL C&R firearms need to be logged while the collector is licensed, regardless of how they were obtained.

Here is one of the letters.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/011801ffl.htm


Listen to this man, his C&R-Fu is stronger than mine.
It's been longer than I care to admit since I bought anything, given my gant-like attention span with my hobbies. On the bright side it can't be long before a bright shiney C&R grabs my attention! ;)

chiefcrash
08-28-2006, 12:11 PM
As far as grey area firearms like the modified 59/66 or bare receivers and barrelled receivers, I would also log them anyway. It's better to log more than necessary rather than not logging what is necessary.
always good advice.

icormba
08-28-2006, 2:26 PM
Is the Yugo SKS a C&R firearm that needs to be entered into my bound book?? I know it's not CA C&R eligible, I just need to know if I need to enter it.

Thanks!!

Looks like you asked an "Easy question", but didn't really get an easy answer?

Yes, you must log both the Yugo M59 & the Yugo M59/66 into your Bound Book.

grammaton76
08-28-2006, 2:28 PM
Looks like you asked an "Easy question", but didn't really get an easy answer?

Yes, you must log both the Yugo M59 & the Yugo M59/66 into your Bound Book.

Erm, if you buy one, you have to run it through DROS, yes?

From what I've read, guns which have been purchased through DROS do not go into your bound book. The bound book is only for guns you purchase with your C&R.

Oops, just read upwards, looks like CA disagrees with that. Must've been something for dudes in other states...

chiefcrash
08-28-2006, 2:37 PM
here's the short and easiest answer i can give:

If you have a C&R license, and the firearm you have just taken possession of is on the C&R list on the BATFE website: log it.

It does not matter if it was DROS'd or not. It does not matter what state you bought it from, what state you were in when you took possession of it, or what color it is. If it's on the list, log it.

stevie
08-28-2006, 2:38 PM
My head hurts :o

Pthfndr
08-28-2006, 5:50 PM
here's the short and easiest answer i can give:

If you have a C&R license, and the firearm you have just taken possession of is on the C&R list on the BATFE website: log it.

It does not matter if it was DROS'd or not. It does not matter what state you bought it from, what state you were in when you took possession of it, or what color it is. If it's on the list, log it.

Correct.

Guys, listen to EOD_guy. He is right.

Plus, once more for those who read too fast.

ONE DOES NOT "USE" THEIR LICENSE. A PERSON IS LICENSED TO COLLECT C&R FIREARMS.

jl1252
08-29-2006, 12:29 PM
Just think of it like this,,,if you purchase a firearm that is on the BATFE list of C&R guns,,,regardless if it was DROS'd or not,,,log it!

Why not just go to Nevada and buy yourself a Yugo 59 or 59/66 (with grenade launcher removed or sleeved, of course) and bring it back yourself. You can personally import any C&R firearm (HG's included as long as you tell the CA DOJ w/i 5 days, and no AW's) from any other state. VIOLA! problem solved. Correct?

jl1252

chiefcrash
08-29-2006, 12:43 PM
Just think of it like this,,,if you purchase a firearm that is on the BATFE list of C&R guns,,,regardless if it was DROS'd or not,,,log it!

Why not just go to Nevada and buy yourself a Yugo 59 or 59/66 and bring it back yourself. You can personally import any C&R firearm (HG's included as long as you tell the CA DOJ w/i 5 days) from any other state. VIOLA! problem solved. Correct?

jl1252

except for the fact you can't bring back a SKS with a grenade launcher on it, you are correct

jl1252
08-29-2006, 1:47 PM
Chief,

yeah, sorry, edited my post.

jl1252

762cavalier
08-29-2006, 4:07 PM
except for the fact you can't bring back a SKS with a grenade launcher on it, you are correct

You can however buy it out of state and remove the grenade launcher before you bring it into CA

icormba
08-29-2006, 4:15 PM
Erm, if you buy one, you have to run it through DROS, yes?

From what I've read, guns which have been purchased through DROS do not go into your bound book. The bound book is only for guns you purchase with your C&R.

Oops, just read upwards, looks like CA disagrees with that. Must've been something for dudes in other states...

No, anything you buy that is on the Fed C&R list MUST be logged into your Bound Book... ie if you live in Florida and buy a M1 Garand from the CMP (without your 03FFL) you still must log it into your BB.

Santa Cruz Armory
08-29-2006, 7:55 PM
Found the answer. Thanks guys!

FIREARMS CURIOS OR RELICS LIST
Curios or Relics
Update March 2001 through December 2003

Section II - Firearms classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968.



Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947 to 1992.

.

rick_in_lb
08-29-2006, 9:46 PM
So if I read this correct. Since a M59 does not have a grenade launcher, I can have it shipped to my door, IF I had my C&R. Yes, I am fishing to get a cheaper one here in California!

NeoWeird
08-29-2006, 10:21 PM
So if I read this correct. Since a M59 does not have a grenade launcher, I can have it shipped to my door, IF I had my C&R. Yes, I am fishing to get a cheaper one here in California!

No. It does not meet all requirements of California law to be transfered to you without a DROS since it is less than 50 years old (they begam manufacturing in 1959, hence Model 59. Just like Mosins, the 1903, etc their number is the year and is a good indicator to age).

What most of you are failing to realize is that California does NOT have a definition of C&Rs. California simply says "Hey, we RECOGNIZE that the US government has deemed these weapons as C&Rs, and IF they are 50 years or older, then you can transfer them at will without a DROS."

If you are a collector, you need to log in and out ANY C&R firearm that comes into your hands and goes out of them. The ATF never collects your records, they are their strictly for the ability to track any firearm that may need to be tracked. If a C&R was stolen and sold to you via legal means, and then you get rid of it, you BETTER be able to tell Agent ABC where it went. Likewise, if a firearm is used in a crime and you are the last person registered as owning it with them, you BETTER be able to tell Agent ABC who has it. It is 100% for monitoring and nothing more. Besides, failing to log in firearms may bring into question how many you have failed to log in and whether you are not loggint them in because you plan on selling them in bulk as a business. The paperwork is there to cover your ******; be lazy and you are gambling, only with Federal law not state.

In case you haven't been told, outside of dealer discounts via the web, your C&R license alone is really only useful on rifles 50+ years or older and when you travel out of the state when you are then legally able to purchase C&R firearms. There are other things, like the CoE, which enhance the C&R in California, but alone, unless it is 50+ years or older or you are leaving the state to get it, you can't touch it.

ETA: In case you didn't catch it; it is legal for a C&R license holder to have a Model 59 shipped to them without any background check. It is NOT legal for someone in California to acquire a 49 year old or less longarm without a DROS. Having a Model 59, for example, shipped to you in the state would be Federally legal, but would break California law. There is, however, nothing against the law, Federally or state wise, saying you can't drive 10 minutes into the border of a bordering state, purchase a Model 59, drive back home and log it into your books.

t001
08-30-2006, 12:37 AM
O.k. just to muddy up the water some more. Would a new licensee be required to log in the C&R firearms in his possession he acquired prior to being licensed?

NeoWeird
08-30-2006, 12:52 AM
No, you are not legally forced to log in previously owned C&Rs, only those obtained while you are licensed. Likewise, if your license expires and you do not renew it, you are no longer obligated to log in/out your C&Rs even though you have the book (it might be wise to still put in the log outs of rifles your obtained while licensed, but sold while you were not).

Of course it wouldn't hurt to log them in prior to all other firearms and make a note in your book that they were owned prior to being licensed (this will also give you a place to put them being logged out if you sell them as a license holder).

FYI, Brownells has an AWESOME log book that is only like $3. It also wouldn't hurt to keep a log of ALL firearms and regulated items (not really an issue here in Claifornia, but if you ever own any legal auto-sear, suppressors, etc) in a seperate book and keep it somewhere safe, like a lock box. It's good to have that information safe in case of a damage, loss, theft, etc where knowing their serial numbers might make it possible for PD to return them to you if found or for insurance claims, etc.

rick_in_lb
08-30-2006, 5:16 AM
Thanks NeoWiered. I guess asking the same questions over different ways does help answer the question. Maybe we should have a sticky on what all these acronyms mean:D. I think I finally get it.:cool: I just wish that DANG BLASTED little blue envelope would come it, it's already been 9214 minutes since I sent it. tic tic tic tic !