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View Full Version : Model1sales and AR uppers under 16 inches


Solidsnake87
08-27-2006, 4:45 PM
Has anybody ever dealth with model 1 sales? They seem to have excellent prices on complete AR-15 kits (minus the stripped lower). They just don't list the brand names of any of their products. I was wondering if they offer a good product or if it was crap? I'm trying to help a buddy build a carbine as cheaply as possible of quality parts. So far he has purchased a vulcan carbon fiber lower for $165 (total after transfer) and I've found a great place to get complete DPMS carbine kits for $500. If the model 1 sales stuff is crap i'm going to have him do DPMS.

On a second note. I'd really like to have a tiny tiny upper receiver for an AR-15 project. I know the law is that the rifle must be at least 30" but I've seen people build krikov kits and so forth and just placed fake silencers on these short barrels to bring them to legal length. Is this legal to do? I remember reading somewhere that the govt considers anything that adds length to the barrel is considered part of the barrel. I think it would look sick to have a solid stock lower with a flat-top 7" upper (otherwise known as a pistol upper) and a 9-12" fake suppressor. I would just like to know if its legal or not. I've heard that you can buy parts just fine but if you have lowers they'll arrest you. UPS or USPS or the seller or something turns u in. I'm not really sure but thats why i'm asking.

blkA4alb
08-27-2006, 4:51 PM
I have a M1S 20" bull barrel upper and it was well worth it. Some here will refer to them as a "bottom feeder" company (bwiese) however. The customer service is great and they are nice folks to deal with. It may be that the less produced bull barrel uppers did not fall to poor quality like the more mass produced carbine uppers.

Regarding your question about the barrel length. If you actually wanted to do a 9.5" flash hider it has to be permanantly attached. It cannot just be threaded onto the barrel. I really don't see a point to that though.

TheMan
08-27-2006, 5:07 PM
I've heard that you can buy parts just fine but if you have lowers they'll arrest you. UPS or USPS or the seller or something turns u in. I'm not really sure but thats why i'm asking.

Whoever told you that needs to be laughed at, repeatedly.

You can purchase those parts, as they could be used to make AR pistols(although legally in CA, it is hard to make them). They are not regulated parts. No one will turn you in.

Model 1 sales are not top tier components, but neither are DPMS. My brother has a M1S 7.5" pistol kit(he doesn't live in CA), and it functions just fine. A friend here in CA put together a 20" rifle kit from them, and it went together pretty well also. I wouldn't have a problem using them.

The idea of a 9" flash hider on a pistol upper seems a bit silly though. And would probably require you to get a custom fake suppressor made. Model 1 also makes 11.5" uppers with 5.5" flash hiders. That would be close to the look you want, without requiring as much $$.

Solidsnake87
08-27-2006, 5:18 PM
I just heard that buying short barreled uppers was totoally illegal if you have AR lowers. They explained it like owning lowers that are not pre-pan will throw you in jail if you buy these parts. I don't want any trouble with the law. I just want to make a unique plinker SMG looking ar-15 with a pistol type upper and build a 9-12" fake suppressor in my shop.

I've heard that DPMS is one of the better brands but it just seems wierd that a company would sell so many parts and not list brand names. My friend wants a carbine kit with a stailess barrel and flat-top upper. M1S has then for $475. I just want to know that the parts will perform on par with say a bushmaster carbine.

grammaton76
08-27-2006, 5:27 PM
I just heard that buying short barreled uppers was totoally illegal if you have AR lowers. They explained it like owning lowers that are not pre-pan will throw you in jail if you buy these parts.

This is actually a BATF issue, not a DOJ issue.

In California, we do not have constructive possession.

Federally, we do have constructive possession. Federal laws rarely come up in discussions of CA law because ours are the more restrictive, but in federally regulated things such as SBR's (which you'd have without a 16" barrel), they can push constructive possession. Although the individual parts are not an issue, you do have the lower, upper, barrel, etc.

Legally, the safest totally straight-line approach is to get the factory to perm affix a really long fake can to it before shipping it to you.

Or, if you have a friend with no AR's and a shop, get HIM to order it and assemble it into a 16" configuration, then give it to you. That's another straight-line approach. The barrel on its own is not a regulated component, even in CA, but for you it could federally be such.

Yeah, complicated, I know.

PIRATE14
08-27-2006, 6:43 PM
Well, I wouldn't put M1S in same league as Bushmaster........

Solidsnake87
08-27-2006, 6:51 PM
I have a bushmaster carbine that my buddy just loves. Thats why he wants one. Does anybody have an M1S carbine rifle? How does it perform? Are there any nice carbine kits besides DPMS under or at $500. I'm trying not to let my friend spend more than that.

bwiese
08-27-2006, 7:16 PM
Even though blka4alb's Model1 Sales build worked out OK, there are wide variances in parts quality from them (as well as other) low-cost AR vendors.

It's not worth saving the few $$. Stick with Bushmaster, Armalite, BravoCoUSA, CMMG, etc.

And don't build an AR pistol. Also, don't have or acquire a short barrel unless a barrel extension has been permanently attached.

Read & understand the FAQ, etc for proper construction of a legal off-list rifle.

shonc99
08-27-2006, 8:13 PM
Way back in 2004 I bought a 16" carbine and 24" Bull barrel from M1S. I have had ZERO problems with quality, fit, finish etc. While I don't know whom they get their parts from, AFAIK there aren't that many core suppliers like Lewis Machine Tool (aka LMT) to get them from in the first place. Mil-Spec is Mil-Spec, though some companies go above and beyond. While I wouldn't suppose M1S uses the best parts, I will buy from them again without hesitation.

As far as the AR pistol issue goes, if the barrel is less than 16" overall and it has a stock it is considered a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) by way of NFA standards. Since CA has to approve a pistol by way of their testing and list, I do not know if an AR-15 pistol is legal in the first place (no stock, barrel less than 16"). My guess would be no. :mad:

xenophobe
08-27-2006, 8:58 PM
Teir1: Colt, FN, LMT
Teir2: (most companies fit here) Bushmaster, Armalite, CMMG, BCM, etc..
Teir3: Model 1, DPMS, Nesard, and other misc companies which use a combination of spec and commercial parts, as well as other possible slight out of spec rejects and factory seconds...

bwiese
08-27-2006, 9:05 PM
Teir1: Colt, FN, LMT
Teir2: (most companies fit here) Bushmaster, Armalite, CMMG, BCM, etc..
Teir3: Model 1, DPMS, Nesard, and other misc companies

I'd rate BravoCo and CMMG above Bushmaster. I rate Armalite higher in QC than Bushy but am disappointed they seem to use 4140 not 4150 steels in bbls (this may vary on some guns, not sure - this was the case last time I checked).

CMMG and BravoCoUSA are near-boutique-level mfgrs (though CMMG's growing) and I hear nothing but good about mfgr processes and customer support.

Wonder when Bushy will park under the FSB and use F-marked FSBs on flattops.
Wonder when they will proof-test/MPI test each bbl & bolt.

That said, I have a lotta Bushmaster stuff that shoots great. But then all my ARs work 100% :)

oaklander
08-27-2006, 9:50 PM
I have a M1S kit on a Stag-15 lower. The kit is an 11.5 inch barrel with a welded 5.5 inch flash hider.

I built this as a fun gun, so I'm not concerned about velocity loss or anything like that.

It will still shoot 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards.

I've put about 2000 rounds through it, with ZERO misfeeds, FTEs or FTFs. This includes cheapo gun-show reloads, Wolf (PRVI-Partizan), Wolf (Russian), and AE223.

It went together in about 2 hours, with not much more tools than a hammer and punch. Some of the roll-pins were a little big, and one of the pins that holds the gas block on started to work loose at about 1000 rounds (JB Weld fixed it).

I keep my guns clean but I don't baby them.

For $500, including CAR grips and M4 stock, this was a good parts kit purchase.

They also got it to me in less than 5 working days.

Solidsnake87
08-27-2006, 10:45 PM
What kind of spread is considered mil-spec for a 16" carbine at 100 yards?

Solidsnake87
08-28-2006, 5:05 PM
Can anybody answer the above question? and would a 16" stainless, fluted, fat top, complete carbine kit (upper comes assembled) be a steal at $570?