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View Full Version : BATF shotgun study is out.


the_natterjack
01-27-2011, 1:33 PM
http://bit.ly/e9NnNC

We need to get active on this. If we don't provide input on this study the other side will do it for us.

Calguns? Do we have a plan for this?

Brian

eaglemike
01-27-2011, 1:48 PM
The really bad part is they seem to think all arms need to have a sporting purpose to be imported.... Alan Gura to the courtesy phone, please!

Dr Rockso
01-27-2011, 1:49 PM
Sounds like the ATF is clarifying what makes a shotgun importable vs. not importable. As long as the "sporting purposes" language from GCA '68 exists there's not much we can do about it. In the wake of Heller and the self-defense 'core' of the 2A that's probably going to need to be litigated.

wash
01-27-2011, 1:56 PM
As I feared, it looks like they might be trying to ban Saigas. It looks like they might try to ban tactical style imports also.

I will start to write a response but I'm going to wait for "the right people" to offer their opinion on how to expand sporting purposes.

Dr Rockso
01-27-2011, 1:59 PM
One interesting nugget from this paper:
In particular, the working group examined participation in and popularity of practical shooting events as governed by formal rules, such as those of the United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC), to determine whether it was appropriate to consider these events a “sporting purpose” under 925(d)(3). While the number of members reported for USPSA is similar to the membership for other shotgun shooting organizations,6 the working group ultimately determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study to determine whether practical shooting is “sporting” under 925(d)(3).

That's an interesting angle that sometimes gets mentioned in these discussions: if it's suitable for a competition (i.e. a "sport"), does that not constitute a "sporting purpose"? Up until now that answer has been "no", due to the scope of "sporting purpose" from the papers in 1989 and 1998.

Things have changed a lot since then, however, and if all of the sudden we had more 3-gun shooters than trap shooters they admit that would be a consideration. Ideally the "sporting purposes" language would be removed altogether, however I think that increasing participation in formal practical shooting sports could have the same effect.

bruss01
01-27-2011, 2:02 PM
So, sue them to change their interpretation of "sporting use" to include hunting, skeet, target practice, and 3-gun or the hobby of gun collecting. Right now, they don't even consider hunting to be an adequate "sporting purpose". Change the implementation without having to change the law. I like it.

jrr
01-27-2011, 2:09 PM
Interesting read. A couple of thoughts...
1. We need to join USPSA and IDPA! Apparently the ATF judges sporting purposes and whether something is a recognized sport by membership numbers. If practical shooting sports had more members, then firearms meeting the needs of practical shooting sports participants become importable under the GCA, as they now have a sporting purpose!
2. Any change to the rules that would ban Saigas or similar shotguns is likely to have little effect. Magazine capacity can be gotten around by putting "dimples" or something similar in the magwell to prevent thighcaps from fitting, a'la the HK SL8. A couple seconds with a dremel takes care of that and is perfectly legal.
3. As said above, if they ask for comments, give them comments! This is a once a decade chance to make your voices heard, I hope that CGF is on top of this, as well as the other CA gun rights groups.

santacruzstefan
01-27-2011, 3:12 PM
About halfway done with the report. Sounds like we need to find a way to make plinking a recognized sport. And it seems they haven't made a determination on 3-gun yet, though they considered it.

The working group also considered “practical shooting” competitions. Practical shooting events
generally measure a shooter’s accuracy and speed in identifying and hitting targets while
negotiating obstacle-laden shooting courses. In these competitions, the targets are generally
stationary and the shooter is mobile, as opposed to clay target shooting where the targets are
moving at high speeds mimicking birds in flight. Practical shooting consist of rifle, shotgun and
handgun competitions, as well as “3-Gun” competitions utilizing all three types of firearm on
one course. The events are often organized by local or national shooting organizations and
attempt to categorize shooters by skill level in order to ensure competitiveness within the
respective divisions. The working group examined participation in and popularity of practical
shooting events as governed under formal rules such as those of the United States Practical
Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) to see
if it is appropriate to consider these events a legitimate “sporting purpose” under section
925(d)(3).

The USPSA currently reports approximately 19,000 members that participate in shooting events
throughout the United States.32 While USPSA’s reported membership is within the range of
members for some other shotgun shooting organizations,33 organizations involved in shotgun
hunting of particular game such as ducks, pheasants and quail indicate significantly more
members than any of the target shooting organizations.34 Because a determination on the
sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of
those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study
to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are “sporting” for
purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns
because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on
practical shooting or “police/combat-type” competitions may have an impact on the sporting
suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain
practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is “generally
recognized” as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,
practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.
Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect
of the practical shooting competitions.

Jack L
01-27-2011, 3:24 PM
The really bad part is they seem to think all arms need to have a sporting purpose to be imported.... Alan Gura to the courtesy phone, please!

Shotguns have historically also been a home defense weapon. The ATF is getting too big for it's limited authority and overreaching where is should not. The ATF apparently has no understanding of personal self defense and the hundreds of thousands of shotguns sold for such.

N6ATF
01-27-2011, 3:28 PM
They like to pretend they don't...

the_natterjack
01-27-2011, 4:46 PM
So how do we go about responding to this?

refute the list?

(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.

Brian

Dr Rockso
01-27-2011, 5:06 PM
About halfway done with the report. Sounds like we need to find a way to make plinking a recognized sport. And it seems they haven't made a determination on 3-gun yet, though they considered it.

I think trying to claim that plinking is a sport is a loser of an argument. On the other hand, we have a good chance to make the argument that the BATFE's determination of what constitutes "sporting" is outdated (which they admit is a possibility).

First of all, the definition of sporting as it applies to rifles is outdated based on their own determinations of what is "sporting" (e.g. target shooting, hunting). Look at CMP Service Rifle or NRA High Power competitions. What rifles are used for those extremely popular sports? AR-15s, AR-10s, M1As, and M1 Garands, only one of which would be eligible for importation under the current features-based justifications of what constitutes "sporting" rifles. If you applied weighting based on the popularity of a particular platform, probably only a small fraction (fewer than 25%) of competitors use Garands as opposed to the far more popular AR-15s and M1As.

Another argument would be that practical-style (3-gun, etc...) organized shooting sports have enough general recognition and competitors to be considered sporting in and of themselves. More importantly, practical-style shooting sports represent an opprotunity to practice skills inherently useful to the utilization of arms for self-defense. Because Heller states that the core of the 2nd Amendment right is that of self-defense, these particular types of sports are more closely related to the core right than the sporting purposes previously held as valid, namely "hunting and organized competitive target shooting". It stands to reason that such sports should be given, if anything, greater consideration when determining a firearm's suitability to a sporting purpose.

Actually now might be an excellent time to try and push the ATF to liberalize their definition of what constitutes a sporting purpose. It's pretty much impossible to imagine that we would end up with a more narrow definition of what constitutes "sporting" than what we already have (basically stationary rifle/pistol shooting, hunting, and trap/skeet/sporting clays), in which case we're right back where we are now. Alternatively it could be found that a much broader range of firearms do, in fact, have legitimate sporting purposes, opening the door to loosening the current restrictions on importation.

foxtrotuniformlima
01-27-2011, 5:25 PM
It sounded like they are hesitant to use 3 gun as a determination of "sporting" because doing so would open up a can of worms for determining the sporting purpose for handguns & rifles.

If they call USPSA 3 gun sporting, then any and all weapons used for that type of competition would be considered OK to import and they probably don't want to do that.

aklover_91
01-27-2011, 5:36 PM
It sounded like they are hesitant to use 3 gun as a determination of "sporting" because doing so would open up a can of worms for determining the sporting purpose for handguns & rifles.

If they call USPSA 3 gun sporting, then any and all weapons used for that type of competition would be considered OK to import and they probably don't want to do that.

Well it'd be the honest, logical thing to do.

But then they'd have to let in all those baby killing assault weapons with no sporting purposes that people use in several different sports with large followings!

I know it's preaching to the choir, but the ATF really does need more oversight. A regulatory commission shouldn't get to decide law based on whatever the ****all it feels like without an notice.

Apocalypsenerd
01-27-2011, 6:42 PM
So if they ban importation of these devices, can we start a factory and build USA made detachable mag, combat shotguns?

bohoki
01-27-2011, 6:46 PM
seems to me reading that, the saigas will be ok they are not excessivly bulky and only come with 5 round mags

any modifications that make it unsporting require bringing the part count majority to usa made parts as to make it no longer an imported firearm

i see no changes

aklover_91
01-27-2011, 6:47 PM
So if they ban importation of these devices, can we start a factory and build USA made detachable mag, combat shotguns?We could always do that.

The issue is, unfortunately, things made wholly in the USA tend to be priced astronomically higher than a comparable foreign product, regardless of whether or not it's any better or higher quality.

Apocalypsenerd
01-27-2011, 8:37 PM
Well, this is kind of off topic, but I would like to see some industry return to the USA. High quality, USA made, firearms is an industry I want to see boom.

Mstrty
01-27-2011, 8:53 PM
The panel generally agreed that firearms
designed and intended for hunting and organized competitive target shooting would fall into the
sporting purpose criteria. It was also the consensus that the activity of “plinking” was primarily a pastime and therefore would not qualify.

Not liking this! Pastime my ***

Dr Rockso
01-27-2011, 9:12 PM
So if they ban importation of these devices, can we start a factory and build USA made detachable mag, combat shotguns?

The other snag is that the ATF has very broad discretion over any firearm with a bore diameter greater than half an inch. They can apply a similar "sporting purposes" test to determine whether or not those firearms constitute destructive devices (which are regulated by the NFA). They've only done so in a small handful of cases, but it's always a possibility.

motorhead
01-27-2011, 9:24 PM
disturbing. they've been playing fast and loose with importation for years. a bill last year to reform atf and curb power abuses died in comittee WITH OVER 200 COSPONSERS.

Goldseeker
01-28-2011, 12:59 AM
Get a Congressional subcommittee to hold hearings on "sporting use" of guns. If they say such-and-so is "sporting" then BATF is stuck.

In quick succession, hold hearings on criminal abuses by BATF and closing it down immediately...

BATF is thick with Iggy-clones and drones
_

yellowfin
01-28-2011, 4:36 AM
http://www.fiatusa.com/en/images/homepage_flash.jpg
We need to take this away from the ATF.

N6ATF
01-28-2011, 11:10 PM
I think that will fly over most people's heads until they see the image URL in their thread notifications. LOL

cdtx2001
01-29-2011, 12:04 AM
A lot of the interpretations by the ATF are subjective, opinionated, over-broad, and vague. THEY may think plinking is only a pastime, but not me. I guess, to them, if it's a hobby or pastime then it has no sporting purpose.

Lrchops
01-29-2011, 2:22 AM
Screw the whole 'sporting' theme! Sure, sporting has its place, just like in countries where guns are virtually all banned, but shotguns here are used for self protection. A shotgun for self protection is best outfitted with pistol grips, high cap magazines, flash hiders, and anything necessary to the tactical performance of the gun and safest performance for the operator.