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SwissFluCase
01-26-2011, 8:15 PM
I think this is interesting to see how the UN is working in other countries besides our own. It is possible that a UN win in Switzerland will embolden them to come after the US.

On February 13th the Swiss will be voting to enact UN recommended gun control regulations.

Link to opposition website: http://www.waffeninitiative-nein.ch/

Link to sponsoring website: http://www.schutz-vor-waffengewalt.ch/

I started to read (badly) translated Google translate text, and I did find some of the same rhetoric, terms, and proposed restrictions that are continually mentioned by IANSA. They are all the same arguments that even the VPC is starting to lose interest in.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Kinsel83
01-26-2011, 8:20 PM
"In Switzerland every third household, there are now at least one firearm". "Every year in Switzerland, about 300 people killed by firearms . That's 300 too much." When is people getting killed too much?? People die everyday by guns, mother nature, etc. People are to blame, not guns. The Swiss need to fight this hard. If this starts with Switzerland, who's next??????

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 8:33 PM
Not good.

Switzerland was one the last countries to join the UN. (2002, by a very,very, very narrow "yes" vote. Yeah, vote fraud I'm sure) 300+ years of peace & neutrality down the drain.

Remember folks, this tiny little country survived in the heart of Europe through two world wars without a shot being fired. Geez, I wonder why?

The best offense is a strong defense.....alas, the NeoCons aren't listening.


Swiss citizen-soldiers:
http://genevalunch.com/files/2009/09/swiss_soldiers_chablais_250909.jpg

I don't believe in standing armies. Too bad the Jefferson's didn't carry the day in 1787 or it would be stipulated into law that we couldn't have a standing army, how cool would that be? Standing armies are a Central Bankers pipe dream come true, for they have to have something to do!


"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state." ~ Thomas Jefferson

misterjake
01-26-2011, 8:37 PM
Not good.

Switzerland was one the last countries to join the UN. (2002, by a very,very, very narrow "yes" vote. Yeah, vote fraud I'm sure) 300+ years of peace & neutrality down the drain.

Remember folks, this tiny little country survived in the heart of Europe through two world wars without a shot being fired. Geez, I wonder why?

The best offense is a strong defense.....alas, the NeoCons aren't listening.


Swiss citizen-soldiers:
http://genevalunch.com/files/2009/09/swiss_soldiers_chablais_250909.jpg

I don't believe in standing armies. Too bad the Jefferson's didn't carry the day in 1787 or it would be stipulated into law that we couldn't have a standing army, how cool would that be? Standing armies are a Central Bankers pipe dream come true, for they have to have something to do!


"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state." ~ Thomas Jefferson

I thought it was because of the Swiss banks. Also somewhere for the Nazi's and New York to store their money safely...

SwissFluCase
01-26-2011, 8:41 PM
I thought it was because of the Swiss banks. Also somewhere for the Nazi's and New York to store their money safely...

It was all of the above. The Swiss were very skilled at using the carrot and the stick. There has been a revisionist movement to minimize the importance of the stick. The European elites have been trying to take Switzerland down since the 13th century.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

jshoebot
01-26-2011, 8:45 PM
Switzerland is the 2nd the last great bastion of marksmanship and firearms culture. Guess who's the last?

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 9:00 PM
I thought it was because of the Swiss banks. Also somewhere for the Nazi's and New York to store their money safely...

"Neutrality has remained Switzerland's fundamental foreign policy principle. The concept of neutrality evolved over the last five centuries and was foreshadowed in the admonition of the hermit Niklaus von Flue (1417 - 1487) to the assembled delegates of the Confederacy : "Do not meddle in foreign disputes!" From 1515 to 1815, neutrality was generally observed in practice as in the Thirty Years' War, mainly in order to preserve the league of independent states that differed in language and culture. On November 20th 1815, Great Britain, France, Austria, Prussia, Russia, participants of the Congress of Vienna, formally acknowledged "the neutrality and inviolability of Switzerland and of its independence from all foreign influences" as being "in the true political interests of the whole of Europe."


Very, very, very little to do with WWII, Nazi's, or banks. We are talking history here. The Thirty Years War was the closest thing you could have to a World War before modern technology.


http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0809/kdy/kdy2.html#III

Window_Seat
01-26-2011, 9:13 PM
You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.
—Isoroku Yamamoto

CCWFacts
01-26-2011, 9:16 PM
Another key deterrent factor, Halbrook suggests, was Switzerland's tradition of a popular army - "the people in arms." At one point an astonishing 20 percent of the Swiss population was under arms, a figure unheard of in a modern country officially at peace - or even most countries at war. Every Swiss home had a rifle. Sharpshooting was and is the national sport; each weekend the hills are alive with the sound of gunfire, with fathers delighting in instructing their kids in proper technique. Swiss youths were trained to shoot at 300 meters, Germans at 100. German generals had to consider the example of the Finns, another small nation of skiers and riflemen who had recently held off a Russian invasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War) far more tenaciously than outsiders expected.

Source (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_n5_v30/ai_21141908/pg_3/?tag=content;col1)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Winter_war.jpg/300px-Winter_war.jpg
Finnish citizens prepare to discuss socialism with guests from the Soviet Union

In Switzerland, the only "gun control" law was that every man must shoot accurately at 300 meters.

dustoff31
01-26-2011, 9:35 PM
I don't believe in standing armies.

In fact, Switzerland does have a standing army. Somewhere around 150,000 people are on active duty at any given time. About 5% are professional soldiers, the rest are conscripts.

After fulfilling their mandatory service, conscripts are assigned to the reserve and become citizen soldiers.


One thing about the Swiss system that I like is that if a person is exempted from service not by physical disability, but for being too stupid, or lazy, or a general PITA, etc, they pay an extra income tax until they are 30 years old.

sw99
01-26-2011, 9:38 PM
Reserves members people keep their Military issued firearms (and ammo) AT HOME.


To make Switzerland gun free, you would need to first make very major changes to how the armed forces work.

dustoff31
01-26-2011, 9:40 PM
Reserves members people keep their Military issued firearms (and ammo) AT HOME.


To make Switzerland gun free, you would need to first make very major changes to how the armed forces work.

The gov't took their ammo away a few years ago. But they do still keep their weapons at home.

Pred@tor
01-26-2011, 9:46 PM
Its sad the US military disarms us unlike after both World Wars we were able to bring home war trophies. Troops after WW1 for the most part were allowed to keep their service weapons. I feel if you risk your life in a war you ought to be able to bring back something!

BigDogatPlay
01-26-2011, 9:59 PM
This story on point from December is an interesting read. (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Gun_debate/Campaign/Emotions_and_tradition_clash_over_anti-gun_move.html?cid=29083616)

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 9:59 PM
In fact, Switzerland does have a standing army. Somewhere around 150,000 people are on active duty at any given time. About 5% are professional soldiers, the rest are conscripts.

After fulfilling their mandatory service, conscripts are assigned to the reserve and become citizen soldiers.


One thing about the Swiss system that I like is that if a person is exempted from service not by physical disability, but for being too stupid, or lazy, or a general PITA, etc, they pay an extra income tax until they are 30 years old.

135,000 active duty.


Military of Switzerland = $3.9 billion

United States Armed Forces = $692 billion


I know, I know, it's like comparing apples and oranges, I just thought I'd throw it out there.

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 10:02 PM
This story on point from December is an interesting read. (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Gun_debate/Campaign/Emotions_and_tradition_clash_over_anti-gun_move.html?cid=29083616)

^ Thanks for posting that!

dustoff31
01-26-2011, 10:12 PM
135,000 active duty.


Military of Switzerland = $3.9 billion

United States Armed Forces = $692 billion


I know, I know, it's like comparing apples and oranges, I just thought I'd throw it out there.

I understand. I'm just saying any nation must have some standing army. Somone has to do the paperwork, train the reserves, and hold off the bad guys until the reserves show up.

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 10:18 PM
I understand. I'm just saying any nation must have some standing army. Somone has to do the paperwork, train the reserves, and hold off the bad guys until the reserves show up.

Well, in the 1700's obviously airplanes didn't exist....so there wasn't an Air Force. Now, I think that Jefferson didn't even want a Navy.

It's all very debatable, but basically if you go looking for trouble, you will get it.

Peace & friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none. That is what George Washington admonished the nation in his Farewell Address. How times have changed.

The wisdom of the Founders never ceases to amaze me.

nick
01-26-2011, 10:24 PM
"In Switzerland every third household, there are now at least one firearm". "Every year in Switzerland, about 300 people killed by firearms . That's 300 too much." When is people getting killed too much?? People die everyday by guns, mother nature, etc. People are to blame, not guns. The Swiss need to fight this hard. If this starts with Switzerland, who's next??????

Given that the total homicide rate in Switzerland is .9 per 100,000 people, or 9 people per million, the Swiss population must be at around 33 million people, if IANSA is to be believed. Last I checked, it was only 7.8 million. We're talking about the total number of homicides, using any sort of object, or no object at all.

Either IANSA is including suicides and justifiable homicides in their stats (which is dishonest and misleading), or it's just making the stats up. Either way, it's being dishonest, but what else is new. The sad part is that most people don't check the information they're being fed, even when checking it is as simple as a 5-min Google search.

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 10:43 PM
Given that the total homicide rate in Switzerland is .9 per 100,000 people, or 9 people per million, the Swiss population must be at around 33 million people, if IANSA is to be believed. Last I checked, it was only 7.8 million. We're talking about the total number of homicides, using any sort of object, or no object at all.

Either IANSA is including suicides and justifiable homicides in their stats (which is dishonest and misleading), or it's just making the stats up. Either way, it's being dishonest, but what else is new. The sad part is that most people don't check the information they're being fed, even when checking it is as simple as a 5-min Google search.

IANSA is the ultimate subversive NGO UN group.


Everything MUST be the same! Standardize the world! All nations must submit, all hail the World State!

Sameness lameness. How about death by government? How about addressing that, if you are concerned about "gun violence"?

Manic Moran
01-26-2011, 10:44 PM
You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.
—Isoroku YamamotoSome random pro-gun chap who thought it was a cool quote

Fixed.

NTM

Dreaded Claymore
01-26-2011, 11:11 PM
Fixed.

NTM

Yeah, it's a badass quote but unfortunately it's fake.

JimSar
01-26-2011, 11:18 PM
How about the Swiss Army Knife? I've always admired an Army that issued corkscrews to its troops. Cheers!

Dreaded Claymore
01-26-2011, 11:23 PM
Until now, I thought the UN Arms Trade Treaty was just a boogeyman for truthers and birthers and others of that ilk. I thought it was overblown and people were reading too much into it. Until now.

This can't possibly pass a public vote, can it?! I mean, our country has pretty much the lowest voter turnout rate in the whole damn world, so that means that Switzerland has a higher one than us. That means that a large proportion of those army reservists will show up and vote no, right? And surely they'll talk to their friends and tell their friends to vote against it, won't they? Switzerland is filled to the brim with guns! How can this possibly work? What's going on that I don't know about?

I'm scared. :(

SickofSoCal
01-26-2011, 11:33 PM
Until now, I thought the UN Arms Trade Treaty was just a boogeyman for truthers and birthers and others of that ilk. I thought it was overblown and people were reading too much into it. Until now.

This can't possibly pass a public vote, can it?! I mean, our country has pretty much the lowest voter turnout rate in the whole damn world, so that means that Switzerland has a higher one than us. That means that a large proportion of those army reservists will show up and vote no, right? And surely they'll talk to their friends and tell their friends to vote against it, won't they? Switzerland is filled to the brim with guns! How can this possibly work? What's going on that I don't know about?

I'm scared. :(

"As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it?"

Dreaded Claymore
01-26-2011, 11:36 PM
"As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it?"

Well, if worst comes to worst, I'll shoot you. :D

SwissFluCase
01-26-2011, 11:38 PM
Until now, I thought the UN Arms Trade Treaty was just a boogeyman for truthers and birthers and others of that ilk. I thought it was overblown and people were reading too much into it. Until now.

This can't possibly pass a public vote, can it?! I mean, our country has pretty much the lowest voter turnout rate in the whole damn world, so that means that Switzerland has a higher one than us. That means that a large proportion of those army reservists will show up and vote no, right? And surely they'll talk to their friends and tell their friends to vote against it, won't they? Switzerland is filled to the brim with guns! How can this possibly work? What's going on that I don't know about?

I'm scared. :(

As far as I have read... The unfortunate reality is that IANSA is using divide and conquer tactics that we don't see as much around here. A case in point is the womens groups who are pushing for this law. A majority of Swiss women polled support this law. Foreigners who have become citizens are also being targeted (sound familiar?). The arguments they use are so lame that no one in the US takes them seriously anymore.

I think the greater problem is that many Swiss trust their government. It is nothing like in the US where everyone is racing to install zombie defense centers in their homes, and possibly with good reason. I think the anti-gun Swiss are mainly naive, and may have a case of buyers remorse if this passes. I also think that they hold the UN in higher regard than we do.

So far the initiative is leading with 52% in the polls. :mad:

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CCWFacts
01-27-2011, 12:31 AM
A case in point is the womens groups who are pushing for this law. A majority of Swiss women polled support this law.

There's some pan-European liberal-leftist world view which encompasses:


Environmentalism (but irrational, anti-scientific environmentalism)
Anti-nuclear-power
Anti-carbon-emissions
Anti-gun ownership
A leftist conception of womens' rights
A long list of social "rights" like right to employment, education, healthcare, etc
Pro-foreigner, including tolerance for Islamic culture and values in Europe, believing that non-Europeans share European values (ie, people from the Middle East to Africa all aspire to the same kind of world), etc.


It might be hard for Americans to even grasp that this set of irrational beliefs, but it's powerful in Europe and it's sort of like a religion. How can so-called environmentalists oppose (with blinding passion) the cleanest, safest power source ever imagined? How can so-called womens rights advocates support disarming women? How can people who support tolerance and multi-culturalism support Islamic immigration to Europe? And yet there it is.

That's what's behind this. IANSA is part of that belief system. Those values didn't stop at the Swiss border.

Switzerland, and all of Europe, may deeply regret its infatuation with these ideas, just like many Jews in the USSR had ample time to regret their infatuation with Socialism.

Conservatives here aren't fully aware of this bizarre belief system that came from Europe, but can see some its craziness in the UN, and it's why conservatives here are generally anti-UN. Pretty interesting essay (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/food/newsletter-signup/Confessions+Greenpeace+founder/4073767/story.html?id=4073767) from one of the founders of Greenpeace about the anti-rational and anti-human way thought has evolved within the European Left.

SickofSoCal
01-27-2011, 1:03 AM
Well, if worst comes to worst, I'll shoot you. :D

LOL!

But you forgot something, I counted the votes to have you disarmed. :D

SickofSoCal
01-27-2011, 1:10 AM
So far the initiative is leading with 52% in the polls. :mad:

Regards,


SwissFluCase

This is bad. It is going to ruin their country and their way of life.

It all started with joining the UN 8 years ago. It is no coincidence that this is happening now. These Internationalists never stop working. It's just like what they did to Ireland with the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. They had a national vote on it, and the people voted "no". So they just held another one a few months later and the vote came out "yes"!

My gut is telling me that this will pass. America will truly be the last legally peaceable civilian armed populace on the planet.

This thing is so draconian for the Swiss, have you looked at it? It's going to change everything! You won't be able to keep an SKS in your own home, for example.

SickofSoCal
01-27-2011, 1:12 AM
There's some pan-European liberal-leftist world view which encompasses:


Environmentalism (but irrational, anti-scientific environmentalism)
Anti-nuclear-power
Anti-carbon-emissions
Anti-gun ownership
A leftist conception of womens' rights
A long list of social "rights" like right to employment, education, healthcare, etc
Pro-foreigner, including tolerance for Islamic culture and values in Europe, believing that non-Europeans share European values (ie, people from the Middle East to Africa all aspire to the same kind of world), etc.


It might be hard for Americans to even grasp that this set of irrational beliefs, but it's powerful in Europe and it's sort of like a religion. How can so-called environmentalists oppose (with blinding passion) the cleanest, safest power source ever imagined? How can so-called womens rights advocates support disarming women? How can people who support tolerance and multi-culturalism support Islamic immigration to Europe? And yet there it is.

That's what's behind this. IANSA is part of that belief system. Those values didn't stop at the Swiss border.

Switzerland, and all of Europe, may deeply regret its infatuation with these ideas, just like many Jews in the USSR had ample time to regret their infatuation with Socialism.

Conservatives here aren't fully aware of this bizarre belief system that came from Europe, but can see some its craziness in the UN, and it's why conservatives here are generally anti-UN. Pretty interesting essay (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/food/newsletter-signup/Confessions+Greenpeace+founder/4073767/story.html?id=4073767) from one of the founders of Greenpeace about the anti-rational and anti-human way thought has evolved within the European Left.

It's beyond Leftest. It's a Globalist/Internationalist/Anti-Human religion.

They want population reduction too.

jshoebot
01-27-2011, 1:14 AM
So far the initiative is leading with 52% in the polls.

Democracy in action. It'll be a sad day if Switzerland allows its gun culture to die. Do you think they'll take it lying down? Or will they be 'up in arms' so to speak?

Code7inOaktown
01-27-2011, 1:16 AM
Yeah, it's a badass quote but unfortunately it's fake.

Very sad. I've read that on so many sig lines that I assumed it was correct. I should have known better. It's the Internets.

CCWFacts
01-27-2011, 8:14 AM
They want population reduction too.

Forgot to include that explicitly on the list. As you say, it's a bizarre anti-human / anti-rational religion. I think it comes out of a connection between rational thought and the horrors of WWII, because WWII was the first war where science played a major role in the destruction. Some of it is due to the Chernobyl disaster, which did expose parts of Europe to some radiation, and which could have been worse. Some of it is also good old fashioned religious mania.

kcbrown
01-27-2011, 8:32 AM
There's some pan-European liberal-leftist world view which encompasses:


Environmentalism (but irrational, anti-scientific environmentalism)
Anti-nuclear-power
Anti-carbon-emissions
Anti-gun ownership
A leftist conception of womens' rights
A long list of social "rights" like right to employment, education, healthcare, etc
Pro-foreigner, including tolerance for Islamic culture and values in Europe, believing that non-Europeans share European values (ie, people from the Middle East to Africa all aspire to the same kind of world), etc.


It might be hard for Americans to even grasp that this set of irrational beliefs, but it's powerful in Europe and it's sort of like a religion. How can so-called environmentalists oppose (with blinding passion) the cleanest, safest power source ever imagined? How can so-called womens rights advocates support disarming women? How can people who support tolerance and multi-culturalism support Islamic immigration to Europe? And yet there it is.


It's because they've taken idealism and run with it as far as it can be taken.

In an ideal world, energy production would be 100% safe and 100% clean. Therefore, they vehemently oppose any power source that, in their view, isn't.

In an ideal world, nobody would need a gun. Therefore, they believe nobody should have a gun.

In an ideal world, everyone would be complete tolerant of all religious ideas. Therefore, they support Islamic immigration to Europe because they believe that if they are tolerant of the beliefs of the Islamic immigrants, the Islamic immigrants will be tolerant of their beliefs (I cannot comment on how tolerant or intolerant of the beliefs of others those who follow Islam generally are. As with so many other things, it probably varies significantly).

In an ideal world, everyone would have a job, everyone would be well educated, everyone would have the health care they need, etc. Therefore, they believe such things must be mandated.


Basically, they believe they can forcibly create the ideal world. What they simply don't get at all is that their ideal world cannot be forced into being, because the very act of doing so introduces a logical contradiction (the use of force to create and maintain a world where the use of force is never necessary, even in self defense), not to mention that the whole idea is predicated on a silly assumption that resources are infinite. Which is to say, their notion of the ideal world is a literal impossibility. While some of them may acknowledge that and attempt to argue that they should at least try to get as close to the ideal as possible through those methods, they fail to understand that the nature of the real world causes the very attempt to create such a world to cost more than it yields.

It's not like it hasn't been tried before. One need only examine the fate of the U.S.S.R. to see but one shining example of how social engineering attempts on such a grand scale tend to work out.

spiderpigs
01-27-2011, 8:45 AM
Very sad. I've read that on so many sig lines that I assumed it was correct. I should have known better. It's the Internets.

The quotes fake but the armed populace was discussed by most of Americas enemies in the past when drawing up war planes against the US mainland.

Wherryj
01-27-2011, 9:10 AM
I thought it was because of the Swiss banks. Also somewhere for the Nazi's and New York to store their money safely...

The reason that Switzerland has never been invaded/pulled into wars is their geography. Switzerland has many narrow mountain passes. This makes it very easy for a small force to stall or destroy a much larger enemy.

Think about the Battle of Thermopylae...

CCWFacts
01-27-2011, 9:13 AM
It's because they've taken idealism and run with it as far as it can be taken.

That's a pretty good analysis of it. I think it may be starting to change. Angela Merkel of all people has announced that "multi-kulti" is a failure and immigration to Europe by people who have non-European values hasn't been a success! Also I note that the far-right parties are gaining in Europe, as Europeans start to look at their cities, full of immigrants who are bringing their home countries' troubles with them, and starting to ask, is this what we want as the future of Europe.

To give an example of European left-wing religiousness, I have some friends in Austria who are fixated on buying "bio" (organic) food for their family. They also smoke, a lot. WTF. Eating a Big Mac every day is less bad than regular smoking. I love organic food and eat it as much as possible but I can also understand it rationally.

cineski
01-27-2011, 9:17 AM
When you take a step back and look all around, there's unfortunately going to be a big huge freaking world war before my life is done for no other reason that people continue to fail to learn the mistakes of the past.

kcbrown
01-27-2011, 9:36 AM
When you take a step back and look all around, there's unfortunately going to be a big huge freaking world war before my life is done for no other reason that people continue to fail to learn the mistakes of the past.

Well, if that's the case then you're going to need a good post-apocalyptic survival simulator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_3) to prepare for the aftermath.

:D

SwissFluCase
01-27-2011, 9:55 AM
Democracy in action. It'll be a sad day if Switzerland allows its gun culture to die. Do you think they'll take it lying down? Or will they be 'up in arms' so to speak?

They will probably comply to the letter. They don't see government as a dangerous entity like we do.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

J.D.Allen
01-27-2011, 10:47 AM
Guys, even in Switzerland they don't have the same rights we enjoy here. Isn't it illegal there to carry a firearm unless its your issued militia weapon and its unloaded while being transported to the range for practice? I don't think they can have personal weapons for self defense. And in Switzerland they don't have a 2A. We do.

Dreaded Claymore
01-27-2011, 11:17 AM
It's because they've taken idealism and run with it as far as it can be taken...et cetera

This is an excellent analysis.

Guys, even in Switzerland they don't have the same rights we enjoy here. Isn't it illegal there to carry a firearm unless its your issued militia weapon and its unloaded while being transported to the range for practice? I don't think they can have personal weapons for self defense. And in Switzerland they don't have a 2A. We do.

Then why do I keep seeing photos of Swiss people walking around with AKs slung over their shoulders? *sigh* Internet, you have lied to me again! :mad:

Jack L
01-27-2011, 1:28 PM
I think this is interesting to see how the UN is working in other countries besides our own. It is possible that a UN win in Switzerland will embolden them to come after the US.

On February 13th the Swiss will be voting to enact UN recommended gun control regulations.

Link to opposition website: http://www.waffeninitiative-nein.ch/

Link to sponsoring website: http://www.schutz-vor-waffengewalt.ch/

I started to read (badly) translated Google translate text, and I did find some of the same rhetoric, terms, and proposed restrictions that are continually mentioned by IANSA. They are all the same arguments that even the VPC is starting to lose interest in.

Regards,


SwissFluCase
The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are conscript citizens 18 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is part of several peacekeeping missions around the world.

The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personal weapons, at home

SickofSoCal
01-27-2011, 4:22 PM
Basically, they believe they can forcibly create the ideal world. What they simply don't get at all is that their ideal world cannot be forced into being, because the very act of doing so introduces a logical contradiction (the use of force to create and maintain a world where the use of force is never necessary, even in self defense), not to mention that the whole idea is predicated on a silly assumption that resources are infinite. Which is to say, their notion of the ideal world is a literal impossibility. While some of them may acknowledge that and attempt to argue that they should at least try to get as close to the ideal as possible through those methods, they fail to understand that the nature of the real world causes the very attempt to create such a world to cost more than it yields.

On that same note, I laugh a little bit inside everytime I read about the UN's "Peace Force"......talk about an oxymoron if ever there was one.

J.D.Allen
01-27-2011, 8:32 PM
Then why do I keep seeing photos of Swiss people walking around with AKs slung over their shoulders? *sigh* Internet, you have lied to me again! :mad:

That's when they're on the way to or from their obligatory marksmanship practice, and the weapons are required to be unloaded.

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:

Carrying guns

To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.
It is, however, quite common to see a person serving military service to be en route with his rifle.
Conditions for getting a Carrying Permit
There are three conditions:
fulfilling the conditions for a buying permit (see section below)
stating plausibly the need to carry firearms to protect oneself, other people, or real property from a specified danger
passing an examination proving both weapon handling skills and knowledge regarding lawful use of the weapon
The carrying permit remains valid for a term of five years (unless otherwise surrendered or revoked), and applies only to the type of firearm for which the permit was issued. Additional constraints may be invoked to modify any specific permit. Neither hunters nor game wardens require a carrying permit.

Transporting guns
Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply:
The ammunition must be separated from the gun, no ammunition in a magazine.
The transport has to be direct, i.e.:
For courses or exercises hosted by marksmanship, hunting or military organisations,
To an army warehouse and back,
To and from a holder of a valid arms trade permit,
To and from a specific event, e.g. gun shows.[8]

The full article is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_gun_laws

SwissFluCase
01-27-2011, 9:57 PM
That's when they're on the way to or from their obligatory marksmanship practice, and the weapons are required to be unloaded.

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:

Carrying guns

To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.
It is, however, quite common to see a person serving military service to be en route with his rifle.
Conditions for getting a Carrying Permit
There are three conditions:
fulfilling the conditions for a buying permit (see section below)
stating plausibly the need to carry firearms to protect oneself, other people, or real property from a specified danger
passing an examination proving both weapon handling skills and knowledge regarding lawful use of the weapon
The carrying permit remains valid for a term of five years (unless otherwise surrendered or revoked), and applies only to the type of firearm for which the permit was issued. Additional constraints may be invoked to modify any specific permit. Neither hunters nor game wardens require a carrying permit.

Transporting guns
Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply:
The ammunition must be separated from the gun, no ammunition in a magazine.
The transport has to be direct, i.e.:
For courses or exercises hosted by marksmanship, hunting or military organisations,
To an army warehouse and back,
To and from a holder of a valid arms trade permit,
To and from a specific event, e.g. gun shows.[8]

The full article is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_gun_laws

They are more than likely carrying SIG 550's. Most Swiss shooting ranges do not allow anything but Swiss service rifles, excluding those produced before the K31. Consequently there are not likely to be many AK47's being carried around.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

M198
01-27-2011, 10:28 PM
"You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Movies aside, the Swiss have a long standing reputation for producing fine military men especially during the middle ages and the renaissance. Sucks to see them neutered. I guess they will just have to start fielding armies of Swiss pikemen again. If it's go enough for the Pope......

paul0660
01-27-2011, 10:40 PM
It does look nice:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/media/cms/images/keystone/2010/12/13665916-29076082.jpg

Swiss
01-27-2011, 10:53 PM
Das isch e verdammte Sauerei! :mad:

CalBear
01-27-2011, 10:59 PM
Here's a translation from the pro-initiative page using my own French abilities along with some Google translation. It looks like their aim is to take back service weapons after service is complete, instead of letting the citizens keep their service weapons. They also want a central firearms registry so they can confiscate down the road, and they want good cause and certification requirements for the purchase of firearms. I'm assuming the removal of "surplus weapons" from circulation means all of the SIGs sitting in Swiss homes from military service will be confiscated and returned to the arsenal. Seeing how almost all weapons in Swiss homes are probably service weapons, and seeing how they'll require good cause to purchase weapons in the future, this will effectively disarm every Swiss person.

Yes on protection against gun violence on February 13

In one in three Swiss households, there is now at least one gun. It's mostly military weapons. Every year, around 300 people are killed in Switzerland by firearms. This is 300 too many.

Just the threat from an arm in the home can make life a living hell for women and children. Not to mention cases in which the arm is actually used. A number of studies show the likelihood of suicides and homicides increases when the availability of firearms is increased. Fewer guns means more safety. We can thus avoid impulsive acts with deadly consequences. For these reasons, the initiative asks for:


Storage of service weapons at the Swiss arsenal
A central registry of firearms
Justification of need and ability for anyone wishing to purchase firearms. Surplus weapons will be removed from circulation


Save lives and vote yes on Feb 13 to protect against gun violence.

It's shocking how absurd this initiative is, and it goes to show how far the spirit of Swiss independence and tradition has fallen. I don't understand how one of the safest countries in the world can look at its prevalence of service weapons in homes as a serious problem.

They are seeking to create the Europe utopia, as another poster alluded to. It's not surprising to see this coming out of Europe, but I figured the Swiss would hold out longer -- they aren't even in the EU. But all in all, Europe is pretty much lost. The unelected EU idealists wield lots of persuasive power, and all European nations will trend toward an Orwellian world, striving for their ever elusive utopia. Utopia is just one regulation away. Or so they think. The sad part is, Europe was doing fine. Now with the EU, they've descended into economic disaster, government invasions of privacy, enormous violent crime rates, and several other problems. Switzerland will soon join them, as it seems they may finally have had the frontal lobotomy required for entry into the EU.

The UN and EU are two of the worst organizations around today, and I don't want our country to have anything to do with them. Nothing they do actually works. Rather, all UN and EU policies merely follow years of indoctrinated idealism. It's funny that the more they do, the worse things get. But they'll never wake up, they'll just blame conservatism, guns, lack of political correctness, nuclear power, and the United States for all world problems.

Hunt
01-27-2011, 11:05 PM
there is hope www.freestateproject.org

I would add that the new special military units made of the undocumented economic refugees from Mexico will have no problem following UN orders to disarm the population. After all they will be getting that so called citizenship in exchange for their service.

CalBear
01-27-2011, 11:16 PM
AFAIK, the Swiss have no right to keep and bear arms in their Constitution. The Constitution merely says every man must perform military service, and this ends up including the gun and keeping it after service based on current laws. The Swiss are pretty willing to vote just about any change through, and they'd probably be pretty willing to alter the Constitution based on current whim.

I'm just glad the US Constitution is more enshrined and says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Fortunately, that's there, and people have had to resort to rewriting history, lying through their teeth, and using Orwellian linguistics in an attempt to redefine the right.

Basically, if something isn't enshrined in a Constitution (and the Constitution must be pretty enshrined in itself), power grabbers can and will take away rights. Even in the US, they've been pretty damn successful. Considering how passionate our founders were about natural rights, it's pretty sad how far they've gotten.

SickofSoCal
01-27-2011, 11:44 PM
Here's a translation from the pro-initiative page using my own French abilities along with some Google translation. It looks like their aim is to take back service weapons after service is complete, instead of letting the citizens keep their service weapons. They also want a central firearms registry so they can confiscate down the road, and they want good cause and certification requirements for the purchase of firearms. I'm assuming the removal of "surplus weapons" from circulation means all of the SIGs sitting in Swiss homes from military service will be confiscated and returned to the arsenal. Seeing how almost all weapons in Swiss homes are probably service weapons, and seeing how they'll require good cause to purchase weapons in the future, this will effectively disarm every Swiss person.



It's shocking how absurd this initiative is, and it goes to show how far the spirit of Swiss independence and tradition has fallen. I don't understand how one of the safest countries in the world can look at its prevalence of service weapons in homes as a serious problem.

They are seeking to create the Europe utopia, as another poster alluded to. It's not surprising to see this coming out of Europe, but I figured the Swiss would hold out longer -- they aren't even in the EU. But all in all, Europe is pretty much lost. The unelected EU idealists wield lots of persuasive power, and all European nations will trend toward an Orwellian world, striving for their ever elusive utopia. Utopia is just one regulation away. Or so they think. The sad part is, Europe was doing fine. Now with the EU, they've descended into economic disaster, government invasions of privacy, enormous violent crime rates, and several other problems. Switzerland will soon join them, as it seems they may finally have had the frontal lobotomy required for entry into the EU.

The UN and EU are two of the worst organizations around today, and I don't want our country to have anything to do with them. Nothing they do actually works. Rather, all UN and EU policies merely follow years of indoctrinated idealism. It's funny that the more they do, the worse things get. But they'll never wake up, they'll just blame conservatism, guns, lack of political correctness, nuclear power, and the United States for all world problems.

Good writeup brother.

I thought that they would have held out longer too. Only 8 years on from joining the UN......



The anti-gun statue in front of the UN's worlds headquarters in New York City:

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/gunstatueatUN.jpg

esnyderr
01-28-2011, 12:00 AM
Ha! That statue is real? How lame.

SickofSoCal
01-28-2011, 12:17 AM
Ha! That statue is real? How lame.

Yep, you bet.


They also have this 4.5 ton melded gun cube sculpture that "tours" around the world at the various UN headquarters. It was at the NYC headquarters in 2001. They are dead serious about disarming in the entire civilian population of the planet.


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/Sculpture.jpg


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/knotted-gun-sculpture-outside-the-united-nations-o1.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/3310945597_2aed2fe325.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/456.jpg

jshoebot
01-28-2011, 12:41 AM
This makes me sad every time I read the thread and articles posted. Switzerland has the biggest gun culture in the world next to the USA. If they vote their guns away it'll be a sad day.

CCWFacts
01-28-2011, 12:57 AM
Ha! That statue is real? How lame.

Sure is!

It would be a great setting for an open carry event at some point in the not-so-distant future!!!

Dr Rockso
01-28-2011, 1:03 AM
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/3310945597_2aed2fe325.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/456.jpg

The elusive 14-inch barreled Colt Python.

jshoebot
01-28-2011, 5:09 AM
Here's a good news story about Switzerland. The antis are the same worldwide, and it seems gun-owners in Switzerland are the same as we are. The video is a few years old, but still relevant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?&gl=CA&client=mv-google&hl=en&v=7avX5TvRc6E&nomobile=1

jshoebot
01-28-2011, 5:11 AM
If the link doesn't work let me know, I'm posting from my phone. If it doesn't work I'll repost it from my computer when I get home.

SickofSoCal
01-28-2011, 8:46 AM
It works.

jonyg
01-28-2011, 8:46 AM
LOL!

But you forgot something, I counted the votes to have you disarmed. :D

Ever heard the phrase "from my cold dead hands"? :44:

But more seriously, the UN is ridiculous. How can they ignore so many real world tragedies (ie Africa etc), have so many screw ups in '94 and even now in Darfur, yet still have the audacity and self-righteousness to condemn Switzerland over 300 firearm deaths (given as a previous poster mentioned, not all of those are even straight up homicides!)?

J.D.Allen
01-28-2011, 9:14 AM
there is hope www.freestateproject.org

I would add that the new special military units made of the undocumented economic refugees from Mexico will have no problem following UN orders to disarm the population. After all they will be getting that so called citizenship in exchange for their service.

I wish them luck with that. I happen to know a few people who will not give up their arms that easily. And many of them include current U.S. military and police members.

SwissFluCase
01-28-2011, 10:03 AM
Yep, you bet.


They also have this 4.5 ton melded gun cube sculpture that "tours" around the world at the various UN headquarters. It was at the NYC headquarters in 2001. They are dead serious about disarming in the entire civilian population of the planet.


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/Sculpture.jpg


Does anyone else here see the symbolic resemblance to the Borg here?

Everyone should be clear the the UN intends to disarm and dominate. There are also plenty of people like me who are dead serious about eliminating the UN.

Here is the page for Switzerland's main RKBA group: http://www.protell.ch/

Regards,


SwissFluCase

maverickoc
01-28-2011, 11:42 AM
I don't think the swiss people will go for this. During the 5 years I lived there, I observed them repeatedly voting "against" anything that they perceived as infringing on their "neutrality" = "being not part of anything other than Switzerland". It did not matter to them, that their own elected government (Bundesrat) and representatives supported those proposals, they simply would not have it, no matter the cost.

Now this proposal is also opposed by their own government ("without counter proposal"), so I don't see it happening.

stix213
01-28-2011, 11:48 AM
Yep, you bet.


They also have this 4.5 ton melded gun cube sculpture that "tours" around the world at the various UN headquarters. It was at the NYC headquarters in 2001. They are dead serious about disarming in the entire civilian population of the planet.


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/Sculpture.jpg




It looks like I can just walk up and grab myself a free 30 round AK mag off that thing :p

Dr Rockso
01-28-2011, 11:48 AM
I don't think the swiss people will go for this. During the 5 years I lived there, I observed them repeatedly voting "against" anything that they perceived as infringing on their "neutrality" = "being not part of anything other than Switzerland". It did not matter to them, that their own elected government (Bundesrat) and representatives supported those proposals, they simply would not have it, no matter the cost.

Now this proposal is also opposed by their own government ("without counter proposal"), so I don't see it happening.

Even if they defeat this one apparently all it takes is one majority vote to end the Swiss gun culture forever. Eventually the planets will align and they'll get their 50%+1 vote unless something is done to enshrine their RKBA.

SwissFluCase
01-28-2011, 12:01 PM
It looks like I can just walk up and grab myself a free 30 round AK mag off that thing :p

Do it! :D

Regards,


SwissFluCase

kcbrown
01-28-2011, 12:09 PM
Even if they defeat this one apparently all it takes is one majority vote to end the Swiss gun culture forever. Eventually the planets will align and they'll get their 50%+1 vote unless something is done to enshrine their RKBA.

Then someone over there is going to have to introduce the opposite proposal: one that would amend their constitution (or whatever they call their foundational document) to enshrine the right to keep and bear arms.

If their government itself is so opposed to the proposal that would strip the citizenry of their RKBA, and the population is similarly opposed, then the opposite proposal should get a lot of support and shouldn't have much trouble passing, right?

Dreaded Claymore
01-28-2011, 3:11 PM
I would add that the new special military units made of the undocumented economic refugees from Mexico will have no problem following UN orders to disarm the population. After all they will be getting that so called citizenship in exchange for their service.

Like many of us, I imagine you're on the lookout for new threats to our rights and dignity. But, based on this post, I think you're looking too hard.

Take a minute to consider what you're saying. Do you truly believe that, under the guise of granting citizenship to illegal immigrants in exchange for educating themselves or serving in the military, that President Obama intends to establish martial law over the whole US, and use a foreign mercenary military force to disarm and tyrannize its citizens? As far as things have gone in this nation, do you truly believe they've gone that far?

If you really do, I think Free Republic or Stormfront.org might be better suited to you. This kind of frothing conspiracy theory is exactly the kind of thing that makes gun owners look bad.

formerTexan
01-28-2011, 3:23 PM
<thread jack>Wow, equating Free Republic with Stormfront? That's quite a stretch...</thread jack>

CalBear
01-28-2011, 3:27 PM
Then someone over there is going to have to introduce the opposite proposal: one that would amend their constitution (or whatever they call their foundational document) to enshrine the right to keep and bear arms.

If their government itself is so opposed to the proposal that would strip the citizenry of their RKBA, and the population is similarly opposed, then the opposite proposal should get a lot of support and shouldn't have much trouble passing, right?
Doesn't work that way in Switzerland. Their Constitution is not nearly as entrenched as ours -- it is changeable by a simple majority vote. In other words, it holds hardly any extra binding power, and is more of a directive and fundamental set of laws to guide the country. They can and will amend it as they please with a majority vote. In the US, it is much, much harder to alter the Constitution, which is supposed to protect the people against abuse, and define the limited powers of government.

Amend in Switzerland = 50% +1 vote
Amend in the US = (66% house 66% senate OR 66% state) AND 75% state ratif.

Dreaded Claymore
01-28-2011, 3:30 PM
Doesn't work that way in Switzerland. Their Constitution is not nearly as entrenched as ours -- it is changeable by a simple majority vote. In other words, it holds hardly any extra binding power, and is more of a directive and fundamental set of laws to guide the country. They can and will amend it as they please with a majority vote. In the US, it is much, much harder to alter the Constitution, which is supposed to protect the people against abuse, and define the limited powers of government.

Evidently you're talking about the US Constitution, and not the California Constitution.

CalBear
01-28-2011, 3:33 PM
Evidently you're talking about the US Constitution, and not the California Constitution.
Correct -- US Constitution. The CA Constitution is a joke.

We can be very, very thankful the US Constitution is as master a document as it is. It is one of the very few things left in the way of freedom grabbers. The only flaw it has, IMO, is its tendency toward implied power limitations and lack of explicit rights guarantees. The reason it is this way is it was primarily crafted by Federalist James Madison. The Federalists were gravely mistaken, again IMO, in their belief that the limitation of government powers in the Constitution would provide sufficient protection to the country (along with the citizen militia resiting oppressive government) without an extensive enumeration of rights. I can see their argument of why enumerating rights might be misconstrued as tacitly forfeiting non-enumerated rights, but I think overall, we're better off with an enumeration of rights. I think we'd be pretty f***ed if the Federalists got their way and blocked a bill of rights entirely. Their view of the Constitution and people in general was idealistic, but wrong. I'm thankful they went as far as they did, but I wish they had gone even farther.

The very fact that the 2A is even up for debate shows what a joke our historians and "legal experts" are these days, as well as entrenched antis who will use any means necessary to distort the truth. Analysis of contemporary modification to states bills of rights, as well as correspondences and the progression of the 2A to its final form clearly shows it protects RKBA against basically any government limitations, and was about personal defense, as much as militia defense of the free state (US).

Dreaded Claymore
01-28-2011, 3:36 PM
<thread jack>Wow, equating Free Republic with Stormfront? That's quite a stretch...</thread jack>

Are you kidding me? They pretty much ban non-Christians.

skyadrenaline
01-28-2011, 8:33 PM
Good writeup brother.

I thought that they would have held out longer too. Only 8 years on from joining the UN......



The anti-gun statue in front of the UN's worlds headquarters in New York City:

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/TheRealDeJureTour/gunstatueatUN.jpg

I think it needs George Washington pictures slapped onto it

Pred@tor
01-28-2011, 8:51 PM
Here's a good news story about Switzerland. The antis are the same worldwide, and it seems gun-owners in Switzerland are the same as we are. The video is a few years old, but still relevant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?&gl=CA&client=mv-google&hl=en&v=7avX5TvRc6E&nomobile=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g A way better version of it here

SickofSoCal
01-28-2011, 9:02 PM
Correct -- US Constitution. The CA Constitution is a joke.

We can be very, very thankful the US Constitution is as master a document as it is. It is one of the very few things left in the way of freedom grabbers. The only flaw it has, IMO, is its tendency toward implied power limitations and lack of explicit rights guarantees. The reason it is this way is it was primarily crafted by Federalist James Madison. The Federalists were gravely mistaken, again IMO, in their belief that the limitation of government powers in the Constitution would provide sufficient protection to the country (along with the citizen militia resiting oppressive government) without an extensive enumeration of rights. I can see their argument of why enumerating rights might be misconstrued as tacitly forfeiting non-enumerated rights, but I think overall, we're better off with an enumeration of rights. I think we'd be pretty f***ed if the Federalists got their way and blocked a bill of rights entirely. Their view of the Constitution and people in general was idealistic, but wrong. I'm thankful they went as far as they did, but I wish they had gone even farther.

The very fact that the 2A is even up for debate shows what a joke our historians and "legal experts" are these days, as well as entrenched antis who will use any means necessary to distort the truth. Analysis of contemporary modification to states bills of rights, as well as correspondences and the progression of the 2A to its final form clearly shows it protects RKBA against basically any government limitations, and was about personal defense, as much as militia defense of the free state (US).

The Jefferson camp was right all along.

SwissFluCase
01-28-2011, 9:30 PM
Doesn't work that way in Switzerland. Their Constitution is not nearly as entrenched as ours -- it is changeable by a simple majority vote. In other words, it holds hardly any extra binding power, and is more of a directive and fundamental set of laws to guide the country. They can and will amend it as they please with a majority vote. In the US, it is much, much harder to alter the Constitution, which is supposed to protect the people against abuse, and define the limited powers of government.

Amend in Switzerland = 50% +1 vote
Amend in the US = (66% house 66% senate OR 66% state) AND 75% state ratif.

Switzerland is one of the only direct democracies in the world.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CalBear
01-28-2011, 11:58 PM
I really hope the Swiss reject this, but as they trend toward a more European society with ties to the EU economic area, and probably eventual membership in the EU, it's hard to see their historic, successful, and harmonious armed society lasting long.

Euro disarmament logic goes something like this:

Attribute falling crime rates in areas with increased firearms access and more permissive carry to "statistical anomalies" or "other factors" or just ignore / reject the statistics altogether as paid for by the "gun lobby"

Attribute lower homicide rates in Europe to the lack of guns.

Attempt to restrict firearms even further.

When violent crime goes up after bans, simply echo the calls for more gun bans. Blame black markets and remaining weapons on the streets -- create even more restrictions to crack down. This cycle repeats.

React to any mass tragedy with enormous new restrictions on gun control.

I seriously wonder WTF they would say in a world free of guns. My guess is crime rates would be ridiculously higher in that world. They'd probably still blame guns, or go after knives or something.

SwissFluCase
01-29-2011, 10:36 AM
I really hope the Swiss reject this, but as they trend toward a more European society with ties to the EU economic area, and probably eventual membership in the EU, it's hard to see their historic, successful, and harmonious armed society lasting long.

Euro disarmament logic goes something like this:

Attribute falling crime rates in areas with increased firearms access and more permissive carry to "statistical anomalies" or "other factors" or just ignore / reject the statistics altogether as paid for by the "gun lobby"

Attribute lower homicide rates in Europe to the lack of guns.

Attempt to restrict firearms even further.

When violent crime goes up after bans, simply echo the calls for more gun bans. Blame black markets and remaining weapons on the streets -- create even more restrictions to crack down. This cycle repeats.

React to any mass tragedy with enormous new restrictions on gun control.

I seriously wonder WTF they would say in a world free of guns. My guess is crime rates would be ridiculously higher in that world. They'd probably still blame guns, or go after knives or something.

That is exactly what has happened in England. Now they are trying to ban things like beer mugs.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CCWFacts
01-29-2011, 11:05 AM
That is exactly what has happened in England. Now they are trying to ban things like beer mugs.

Unfortunately, SwissFluCase isn't joking or exaggerating:

The Home Office has commissioned a new design, in an attempt to stop glasses being used as weapons.

Official figures show 5,500 people are attacked with glasses and bottles every year in England and Wales.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8217775.stm)

kcbrown
01-29-2011, 1:54 PM
Unfortunately, SwissFluCase isn't joking or exaggerating:



Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8217775.stm)

At the rate things are going over there in the U.K., everyone there will be working and living in padded cells within the century. :rolleyes:

In a way, I wish they'd get on with it so they could act as a clear, stern warning to the rest of the world what happens when you let wild-eyed idealists, who wouldn't know the real world if it hit them in the face, get what they want....

JDay
01-29-2011, 2:27 PM
Remember folks, this tiny little country survived in the heart of Europe through two world wars without a shot being fired. Geez, I wonder why?

I'm sure them being safe during WW2 had nothing to do with them protecting all that gold the Nazi's stole.

Dreaded Claymore
01-29-2011, 9:01 PM
That is exactly what has happened in England. Now they are trying to ban things like beer mugs.

Unfortunately, SwissFluCase isn't joking or exaggerating: Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8217775.stm)

At the rate things are going over there in the U.K., everyone there will be working and living in padded cells within the century. :rolleyes:

In a way, I wish they'd get on with it so they could act as a clear, stern warning to the rest of the world what happens when you let wild-eyed idealists, who wouldn't know the real world if it hit them in the face, get what they want....

I'd agree with you but I feel the pain of those poor blokes in Britain, who can't hardly chop up an onion without the bobbies confiscating their knife. I hate being treated like a child by authority figures, which is why I hated public school. :(

When I think about football (as in soccer) hooligans, it starts to look as if their society is just fundamentally violent somehow. If they really want to change that, the government can't do much to help, and neither can getting rid of guns, knives, or pint glasses.

C.W.M.V.
01-29-2011, 9:07 PM
Switzerland was one the last countries to join the UN. (2002, by a very,very, very narrow "yes" vote. Yeah, vote fraud I'm sure) 300+ years of peace & neutrality down the drain.

Lamentable indeed




I don't believe in standing armies. Too bad the Jefferson's didn't carry the day in 1787 or it would be stipulated into law that we couldn't have a standing army, how cool would that be? Standing armies are a Central Bankers pipe dream come true, for they have to have something to do!



C_Kh7nLplWo

orangeusa
01-29-2011, 9:39 PM
I work with Swiss guys, and from what I've been told - it's quite hard to get a handgun. Yes, possible, yes they make handguns in Switzerland... Sphinx comes to mind... Sigs are made in Germany....

And the Sig 55x rifles are issued to all military members and are mandatory to own while in the military. But once out of the military and have to return the gun.

But - the paradox (or thing that confuses me) is that they can't believe we have indoor ranges. And love to shoot handguns...

Very confusing.. :)
.

CCWFacts
01-29-2011, 9:52 PM
But - the paradox (or thing that confuses me) is that they can't believe we have indoor ranges. And love to shoot handguns...

Gun control is heavily culturally-dependent. Our particular culture makes a big huge deal of full-autos and suppressors (silencers), thinking these are things that are the holy domain of the government and criminals. In other cultures, these things are meaningless. Suppressors are available with no paperwork in countries in many countries in Europe. Full-auto is perfectly normal in the Middle East. Latin American countries make a big deal of any so-called "military" caliber (9mm, 556, etc). We make a big deal of switchblades. Some other countries make a big deal of handguns, even if full-autos are no problem.

It's all just cultural views, none of it has any connection to the weapons' dangerousness or to public safety.

SwissFluCase
01-29-2011, 11:18 PM
I hate being treated like a child by authority figures, which is why I hated public school. :(


Funny... That is where my dislike of overbearing government started.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

SwissFluCase
01-29-2011, 11:21 PM
I work with Swiss guys, and from what I've been told - it's quite hard to get a handgun. Yes, possible, yes they make handguns in Switzerland... Sphinx comes to mind... Sigs are made in Germany....

And the Sig 55x rifles are issued to all military members and are mandatory to own while in the military. But once out of the military and have to return the gun.

But - the paradox (or thing that confuses me) is that they can't believe we have indoor ranges. And love to shoot handguns...

Very confusing.. :)
.

I believe the gun laws vary widely between the cantons. The French speaking cantons are more restrictive than the German speaking ones.

The Swiss Army is not buying any more Sig 550s, so they make the soldier return it upon retirement, and they will give the soldier either a K31 or a Stgw 57 instead.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

SickofSoCal
01-29-2011, 11:40 PM
C_Kh7nLplWo

Advisable not to mock that which you have not studied, researched, or conceptualized.

Two of the greatest civilizations the world has ever seen, did not have standing armies. These two civilizations are in a large part what the Founder Fathers based our Republic off of.


"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." ~ Thomas Jefferson

stitchnicklas
01-29-2011, 11:40 PM
all i know is no one is taking away my gun rights,especially some other country..

SickofSoCal
01-29-2011, 11:41 PM
I

But - the paradox (or thing that confuses me) is that they can't believe we have indoor ranges. And love to shoot handguns...

I can't believe we have indoor ranges either. You couldn't PAY me to shoot in one.

orangeusa
01-30-2011, 12:04 AM
I can't believe we have indoor ranges either. You couldn't PAY me to shoot in one.

I know, I know... :rolleyes: But shooting indoors is better than not shooting... :)

PBRStreetgang
01-30-2011, 12:06 AM
That is exactly what has happened in England. Now they are trying to ban things like beer mugs.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Not beer mugs!!!

SwissFluCase
01-30-2011, 12:10 AM
all i know is no one is taking away my gun rights,especially some other country..

The interest here is that our founding fathers singled out the Swiss militia system as part of the basis for our volunteer army, and the 2nd Amendment. We have very close ties to Switzerland in this regard, and while their politics will not dictate ours, it certainly does not help us, and sets a bad example for the gun control crowd. Right now we have almost defeated the antis, and a win for this initiative could embolden our enemies.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CalBear
01-30-2011, 12:23 AM
A good overview on guns in Switzerland:

http://diodon349.com/Attack_on_America/swiss_guns.htm

SickofSoCal
01-30-2011, 12:25 AM
I know, I know... :rolleyes: But shooting indoors is better than not shooting... :)

Hence a downside of being city folk.

C.W.M.V.
01-30-2011, 5:42 AM
Advisable not to mock that which you have not studied, researched, or conceptualized.

Two of the greatest civilizations the world has ever seen, did not have standing armies. These two civilizations are in a large part what the Founder Fathers based our Republic off of.


"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson was a great man, that doesn't mean hes always right. Especially given the passage of time.

You know what happens to countries that have no standing armed forces in the era of ICBM's, Stealth-super cruise fighters, BVR airial combat and armored fighting vehicles? They die. This is no longer the era of "Ok time to go to war, here's your sword get in formation." doesn't work that way anymore. As a student of history that is painfully obvious. Countries that survive without a standing army are the exception rather than the rule.

aileron
01-30-2011, 9:34 AM
Thomas Jefferson was a great man, that doesn't mean hes always right. Especially given the passage of time.

You know what happens to countries that have no standing armed forces in the era of ICBM's, Stealth-super cruise fighters, BVR airial combat and armored fighting vehicles? They die. This is no longer the era of "Ok time to go to war, here's your sword get in formation." doesn't work that way anymore. As a student of history that is painfully obvious. Countries that survive without a standing army are the exception rather than the rule.

Very true, this is why the Swiss system is really good. I large contingent of militia and a small contingent of full time soldiers. (Size dependent on technological needs.)

About the comment of ...exception rather than the rule. We are the exception. If we do our jobs right (defending the constitution and taking our rights back), and our progeny do theirs, we always will be.

C.W.M.V.
01-30-2011, 9:45 AM
Agreed. The US is the exception in nearly all things, guess you can say were exceptional:D
Among other things the swiss have terrain on their side big time. Its not like France where its nice flat Panzer country, hell they've even lined to roads in trees so the Heer can march in the shade. We've kinda got the same thing going as the Swiss, but instead of mountains we have big *** oceans on our east and west.

As we have these natural protections we can get away with the small standing army like you mention, as long as we decide we are going to pursue isolationist foreign policy. Remember WW2, we had such a system and it took us a few years to become a truly formidable military machine.

Personally I'm all for having a larger military force that will allow us to exert our will and influence on a global scale. But I am an unabashed US nationalist, so others opinions will differ. We tried isolationism before, twice in one century, and it failed miserably.

a1c
01-30-2011, 9:52 AM
The reason that Switzerland has never been invaded/pulled into wars is their geography. Switzerland has many narrow mountain passes. This makes it very easy for a small force to stall or destroy a much larger enemy.

Think about the Battle of Thermopylae...

Then there is also the fact that Switzerland has little strategic value when you can conquer or control all the territories around it.

Back to the thread: the UN has NOTHING to do with this. This is a domestic issue.