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View Full Version : Ramon, Close Down Calguns.


tenpercentfirearms
08-26-2006, 10:23 AM
I am doing some reading behind the lines here, but I have a suggestion. It appears that the DOJ has done something to cause Ramon some grief over his hosting of Calguns. As a result, Calguns has had to remove the for sale threads, implement a word filter, and really have to watch its back about everything. Basically, Calguns has lost its effectiveness.

Part of this result is what can be clearly seen as stresss and heartache for Ramon as is evident by this announcement. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=38461) I personally don't want Ramon to feel like he has to carry this load anymore. When he makes statements that he is tired and his mind is elsewhere, I think that is a sign that he needs relief.

I want to propose that we give Ramon that relief. Ramon and his Calguns was a completely dependent factor in the exposing of the OLL story and ensuing saga. There would be no OLLs if it were not for Calguns. I am completely indebted to Ramon in ways because this OLL issue helped make my gun shop. This board and the people that found out about me through this site made Ten Percent Firearms where we are today. Absolutely nothing can remove the fact that Calguns made all of this happen and has been a huge resource for California gun owners and continues to be so today.

Knowing that Ramon will always have the respect and the gratitude of thousands of California gun owners, why hold on? Ramon, you did your part and again, I can't thank you enough. I want to thank you some more by having you move on. Take that break you know you need and focus on your other priorities. What you started will continue. The spirit of Calguns will never die.

When I started the lower business, for about a weekend I was on top of the world, but because I stuck my neck out, the DOJ came after me. When they coerced Clint McKee of Fulton Armory to back out of 200 lawful lower sales, I was sunk. My stress level was at an extreme high. I was in over my head. What happened next made me so proud of all of you. You didn't get mad at me, you didn't get discouraged, you moved on. Motivated gun owners went and found other FFLs. The fever started and it spread to epic proportions.

The same thing could happen to Calguns. Ramon, you can pass the torch. You stuck your neck out and the DOJ came after you. However, we are motivated. The people have come and they will continue the fight. If you pass on Calguns, you will not have lost anything. Your reputation among this community will never waiver.

When I had to step back and pass the torch, I didnít stop there. I just reorganized. I got out of the lower business and got into the parts business. I am still meeting the needs of this community to this day, maybe even stronger than when I first started. There is no reason once things pick up at the other board that you canít reopen Calguns in the future and get it back to the small little community it once was.

Ramon, I just want you to know that I appreciate everything you have done for us. I donít think any of us fully understand the burden you have carried for this cause and I am not sure if we can ever know. I just want you to know that if you need to give up Calguns, you will lose no respect at all. If you want to free yourself of the stress and grief of continuing Calguns, none of us will think less of you. If you retire Calguns, it will not be a victory for the anti-gun forces in this state. The patriots of this state who have come together on this board will not stop. We will keep doing what we have to do to preserve our rights. Whether we do it at Calguns, Gunscal, or even another board, we will not let this thing die. There should be no ego or posturing involved in any such decision. I hope you do what you need to do for your health and wellbeing.

Ramon, with the utmost respect and appreciation towards you, if you want to let go, let go. You have served the State of California and these people with distinction and dignity. No one can ever take that from you.

If you will never let the board go, then so be it. Tell me to shove it. Again, you have already established your position in my mind and I respect whatever decision you make.

Wes

6172crew
08-26-2006, 10:27 AM
Did you hit your head this morning?:confused:

tenpercentfirearms
08-26-2006, 10:32 AM
Yeah, it appears so. I am saying what should have been said a long time ago. If Ramon is only keeping this place alive for "the cause" at the expense of his personal finances or health, we are being selfish to not tell him to pass the torch.

I don't think gunscal is a shill site. If it is, lets find somewhere else to do this. Gunscal should just be an example that the motivation is still there to carry this thing on. If Ramon wants to pass the torch, then he should do it. I don't want to see him destroyed over this.

If I am wrong and he is strong and motivated to continue, then he can tell me I am wrong and I will support his decision.

Nefarious
08-26-2006, 10:38 AM
Yeah, it appears so. I am saying what should have been said a long time ago. If Ramon is only keeping this place alive for "the cause" at the expense of his personal finances or health, we are being selfish to not tell him to pass the torch.

I don't think gunscal is a shill site. If it is, lets find somewhere else to do this. Gunscal should just be an example that the motivation is still there to carry this thing on. If Ramon wants to pass the torch, then he should do it. I don't want to see him destroyed over this.

If I am wrong and he is strong and motivated to continue, then he can tell me I am wrong and I will support his decision.

Did you forget to change your password :D :D :D

My only regret, is that I found this site so late in the game. I do understand what you are saying, and if this board were to close, there are still options for us out there. If money be the problem, there are TONS of free forums that could be used. Either way.. whatever the need may be, there are ways to meet those needs.

Edit: Now where are those extended takedown pins - :)

Kestryll
08-26-2006, 10:38 AM
Not a chance.

Calguns may be having some problems and going through some difficulties but we're here and with some time and effort we'll get through this and come out better.

I'll address this a bit more later but I have appointments today.

CALI-gula
08-26-2006, 12:19 PM
Honestly 10% , if I was in charge of Calguns and I had read your email, it would solidify my resolve, incite me to toe the line, and harden my efforts to stick with it - I would take the "Cool Hand Luke" approach and stick it to the DOJ, even while following their rules beyond their expectations.

If you were shooting for reverse psychology, or lobbing incendiary Machiavellian wit to get a certain outcome, known to be one of my favorite approaches if you read the subtle subtexts in the history of my posts, you nailed it.

.

WokMaster1
08-26-2006, 1:24 PM
10%, are you losing your marbles? Nah, but i'm watching your website closely. Just in case you really are & start giving 40%-50% discounts....;)

dwtt
08-26-2006, 1:59 PM
Please don't close down Calguns. I can't speak for our host, but I don't think he is keeping this site up just for "the cause". There's a lot more to guns and the sports using firearms than the off list receivers. I think a lot of the stress suffered by our moderator comes from some of us not following the rules and posting childish things. If we police ourselves, much of the stress will hopefully go away.
Remember, none of us here are breaking the law and the moderator has nothing to fear from the DOJ. The DOJ can give grief to our host for allowing this forum to exist, but only he can decide if it's worth it.

blkA4alb
08-26-2006, 2:39 PM
I don't think theres a person here who can say that they have spent a couple hours on calguns either reading or debating some laws (or picking apart the most recent memo.) I know I sure have. Calguns is the go-to website for people with questions about the legality of something. It seems everyweek there is a new member here who is confused about the OLL or just a firearm in general, and we're here to help. Where would they go without Calguns? Gunscal, not yet.

We are a community, you guys are my buds :D . We've got the FFLs here like you 10%, Pirate14 from CWS. Xenophobe from the Gun Exchange, SVT something is another :p , and I'm sure theres plenty more. We've got the resident legal minds like bweise and artherd. Not to mention the conspiracy theory experts here to debate what real money is :D (we all know who I'm talking about.) Everyone has there place here, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm done :p .

EBWhite
08-26-2006, 2:43 PM
Nothing done here is illegal, everyone is happy. We share a hobby- this is a great site no matter what, hopefully it can return to its glory soon. Everyone needs to calm down, stop being scared..... unless you are doing something illegal the DOJ or any other law enforcement agency cannot do anything to you. We have nothing to fear if you are following the law.

C.G.
08-26-2006, 2:59 PM
Ten Percent,
From your reasoning in a nutshell, if you were able to reorganize and come out of it OK, why shouldn't Ramon be able to do the same?
Closest anology I can think of: At the time you stopped selling OLLs, no one here suggested that you should get out of the Firearms business.

GTKrockeTT
08-26-2006, 3:19 PM
There is one, and only one thing destroying this web forum.


PARANOIA

I'm thinking of one member in particular. Let's see now...he hates DoJ employees, Christians, most law enforcement, he's always looking for ways get around the law with firearms, he claims the DoJ is spying on members of this forum, drove everyone into a froth over 'off list lowers', and...every full moon or so...he posts the most ridiculous conspiracy theories and paranoid ramblings that they make 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest look tame...

...Now, his paranoid venom has spread to another forum...

...Hmm...who could that be. I think his name rhymes with Shill Mice.

Ban him...and 90% of the problems on this board will get flushed with him.

Will Price? :confused: :D

KimoBBZ
08-26-2006, 3:29 PM
Ummmm... 10%, ya might wanna check/change your password, I think someone posted on your behalf...

;)

6172crew
08-26-2006, 5:05 PM
Will Price? :confused: :D

Phill Lice?

tenpercentfirearms
08-26-2006, 5:43 PM
I am just saying if Ramon wants to take a break, he should take a break. I am not 100% on this, but I am pretty sure the DOJ really tried to screw with Ramon. It is easy for all of us to say, "Tell the DOJ to shove it." However, once it happens to you, you don't know how stressful it is. If this site is causing Ramon stress and it takes up too much of his time, he should feel comofortable letting someone else take over.

Also, it gives the new board the chance to start fresh and have for sale forums and basically to tell the DOJ to take a hike. Once Calguns compromised and had to go on the defensive, it lost some of its effectiveness. It isn't anyone's fault around here and I don't think less of Ramon. It is what it is.

Think of it as a new slate. And it doesn't really matter if we are on Calguns or any other message forum, we make the forum. So whether we are at Calguns or somewhere else, we will be just as effective. And again, there is nothing that will prevent him from brining Calguns back.On behalf of myself and the rest of the Calguns family...SHOVE IT!!!10th Amendment, this isn't about you. This is about Ramon and what he needs. You have no right to tell me to shove it and you most certainly don't speak for the "Calguns Family". I don't think you guys get it. This thread isn't about what we want. It is about what Ramon wants. This is a great place for us to hang out and discuss things. We don't have to spend hours dealing with idiots that post moronic statements, we don't have to have DOJ agents serving us with papers, and we aren't having to spend our money keeping this baby up and running with who knows how much in legal costs. Again, this isn't about what we want, it is about what Ramon might need. If he has a handle on it and he wants to tell me he is fine, I respect that. You guys can't speak for him.

gose
08-26-2006, 6:25 PM
If we're paranoid about the DOJ, I (or someone else) could move the site off US soil. I could pretty easily set up hosting on a site in Sweden and have one of my friends be responsible for it. That way the DOJ would have no say to what gets posted since we would operate under Swedish law (The pirate bay anyone? ;))

brassburns
08-26-2006, 6:49 PM
I understand what 10% is saying. All good things must come to an end. If this is the time, so be it.

On the other hand, this forum is a valuable resource, even without the "For Sale" boards. For that reason, I hope the forum continues.

I just made a small donation as my way of saying thank you to Ramon for his work. If he keeps the forum open, great. If it shut down tonight, that would be OK too.

Randy

C.G.
08-26-2006, 8:04 PM
I am just saying if Ramon wants to take a break, he should take a break. I am not 100% on this, but I am pretty sure the DOJ really tried to screw with Ramon. It is easy for all of us to say, "Tell the DOJ to shove it." However, once it happens to you, you don't know how stressful it is. If this site is causing Ramon stress and it takes up too much of his time, he should feel comofortable letting someone else take over.

Also, it gives the new board the chance to start fresh and have for sale forums and basically to tell the DOJ to take a hike. Once Calguns compromised and had to go on the defensive, it lost some of its effectiveness. It isn't anyone's fault around here and I don't think less of Ramon. It is what it is.

Think of it as a new slate. And it doesn't really matter if we are on Calguns or any other message forum, we make the forum. So whether we are at Calguns or somewhere else, we will be just as effective. And again, there is nothing that will prevent him from brining Calguns back.10th Amendment, this isn't about you. This is about Ramon and what he needs. You have no right to tell me to shove it and you most certainly don't speak for the "Calguns Family". I don't think you guys get it. This thread isn't about what we want. It is about what Ramon wants. This is a great place for us to hang out and discuss things. We don't have to spend hours dealing with idiots that post moronic statements, we don't have to have DOJ agents serving us with papers, and we aren't having to spend our money keeping this baby up and running with who knows how much in legal costs. Again, this isn't about what we want, it is about what Ramon might need. If he has a handle on it and he wants to tell me he is fine, I respect that. You guys can't speak for him.

Well you can't speak for him either. How do you know what Ramon wants or needs?
He has been running this board for a very long time and runs it well. Whatever decisions he made in the past were fine by me and the ones he will make in the future will probably be fine by me as well.
He certainly shouldn't be coaxed by others, however; I am sure that if he feels he needs to take a break, he is capable of doing it on his own.

Schlamoo
08-26-2006, 8:59 PM
Holly gee whiz, Some of you are like circling buzzards waiting for a carcass to drop. I've said it before and I'll say it again, back off. Jesus, first this is Ramons site, period! He created it, fed it, kept it running and supported alot of you as you were cashing in on the OLL train. My belief, and only my belief, the for sale forums are gone is because some folks pushed the limits of what they were selling. GET OVER IT, THEY ARE GONE! Hopefully only for the short haul, but stop trying to eat your parents. Christ almighty, stop the *****ing. Some of us enjoy reading the forums and reflecting on other peoples opinion. But there are quite a few of you who just relish in stirring up the crap. Is it because your life is so bad you want to see someone else fail? If so, go away, make someone else miserable. Leave the rest of us to enjoy what this site has to offer. I just decided my forum saying, "Mean people suck, STUPID people are annoying!"........... Ahhhh, I fell better.

tenpercentfirearms
08-26-2006, 9:20 PM
Well you can't speak for him either. How do you know what Ramon wants or needs?
He has been running this board for a very long time and runs it well. Whatever decisions he made in the past were fine by me and the ones he will make in the future will probably be fine by me as well.
He certainly shouldn't be coaxed by others, however; I am sure that if he feels he needs to take a break, he is capable of doing it on his own.
I never spoke for him. I am letting him know my opinion. If he needs to move on, I support him and we will move on as well. I don't want him feeling like he owes us anything and that is the only reason he is keeping the board up.

Schlamoo. I don't think you understand the whole situation. The for sale section just didn't disapear because some one tried to sell something illegally. The moderators already did a great job of cracking down on those cases. The only reason to shut down a perfectly legal section of a website is if you are getting pressure from an outside force. You act like they just got tired of moderating the for sale section. I seriously doubt it. We all moderate this board and have no problems expressing our opinions on legalities.

This is no ***** session and I have no clue where you got that idea. This is a thead about supporting Ramon.

AntiBubba 2.1
08-26-2006, 9:32 PM
Well, no word from Ramon so far...

I agree with the sentiment, 10 per cent (it rhymes!), even though I'd hate to see it happen. I don't know why it has to be all-or-nothing. Maybe Ramon just needs a Spa Weekend-a few massages, a yoga class, maybe a facial and a pedicure (hey man-it's California, y'know? :D ), some organic Hmong food...

Everyone takes a break once in a while.

Schlamoo
08-26-2006, 10:10 PM
10%, Yes I in fact feel I do understand the whole scope of why the for sale forums were taken away. No, Ramon or any of the moderators have not met me for lunch and explained the intimate details, but I do have some commn sense. My comment was not specifically directed at you.

Again my comments about "*****in'" were not directed solely at you. In the last couple of days forum titles such as "Calguns sucks" have appeared. My point was that if someone thinks this internet "place" sucks then go elsewhere. You started this thread, if you look at a couple of the posts there are some, in my opinion, that feel they have the right to tell Ramon or better yet DEMAND, Ramon resign. My feeling is and I have stated before, this is his site, if someone doesn't like it either, start their own, go away or shut up.

Now, since you addressed me directly please let me address you, I think I understand what you were trying to say when you posted this open letter to Ramon. I personally didn't agree with the way you said most of it, beginning with your title, but that is what makes us all unique. I feel a more friendly or personal way to share your thoughts would have been by a private message opposed to a public forum where others think they can grab a pitchfork or torch and march up to the castle with you.

It appears that this site is something that Ramon would like to see continue as Kestryll (sp?) has been appointed the admin. for the time being. Let it ride and see overtime how things work out. That is my point.

tenpercentfirearms
08-26-2006, 10:28 PM
My feeling is and I have stated before, this is his site, if someone doesn't like it either, start their own, go away or shut up.

Or post a suggestion in the suggestion forum. I think your attitude of all or nothing is why some people might be upset. I don't take your attitude as that of the entire board, but others might. There is nothing wrong with discussion our opinions and trying to give our feedback to Ramon. You seem to be of the opinion that if you don't like the way things are run, there is no way to address your greivences. I would hate to be at a board where we weren't allowed to discuss our options. You know the whole go away or shut up thing. :rolleyes:

In hindsight, the thread title was probably too much. Oh well, now it is a good way to attract attention. :p

chris
08-26-2006, 11:09 PM
i would really hate for this site to go away it is a great resource for news and upcoming legisltation to discuss about. i think the powers that be do not like us to be all that informed about what new laws they are trying to pass IMO.

this site has a tremendous amount of knowledge and this is a place to find it. i'm sure there are some people here to mod or take over the board if Ramon decides to take a break. again since he has not chimed in on this issue i will leave it at that.

but i have to say since i have come to this site i know a heck of alot more of the complex gun laws of this crazy state. mike haas has done a great job of posting relevent info of legislation and that is a good enough reason to keep this place alive. it seems to have calmed down now. and we are more focused on pending legislation in sacramento.

Boomer1961
08-26-2006, 11:22 PM
There is one, and only one thing destroying this web forum.


PARANOIA

I'm thinking of one member in particular. Let's see now...he hates DoJ employees, Christians, most law enforcement, he's always looking for ways get around the law with firearms, he claims the DoJ is spying on members of this forum, drove everyone into a froth over 'off list lowers', and...every full moon or so...he posts the most ridiculous conspiracy theories and paranoid ramblings that they make 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest look tame...

...Now, his paranoid venom has spread to another forum...

...Hmm...who could that be. I think his name rhymes with Shill Mice.

Ban him...and 90% of the problems on this board will get flushed with him.


Man I hope you are not talking about me....


....I don't hate DOJ employees,.......but do wish the brightest and smartest would get another job and would hope the guvinator would not look at this department as a way to hire the mentally challenged as he would not do any worse for the effort....


....how could anyone hate christians unless they are Jerry Falwells's and Pat Robertson's Fund raising thieves......do we even call these two selfish idiots christian.... if not I would then consider myself christian...


......as for LE, I only hate the one who gave me a speeding ticket 20 years ago when I was not speeding and ......for going to court to fight it, I ended up spending 3 times as much as well as having to picki up garbage because He lied in court to get the extra overtime....as I found out he was an overtime hound for tickets he wrote for court appearance......else LE is cool and an important tool in society to help us to all get along....


oh well....

It is obvious that the changes here are prompted by government harrassment, and political prosecution as Ramon has sold no OLL's only had a forum for discussion. But our tax paying dollars were spent to harass this person to affect a a behavioral change.....is that not so like facist/commie government????

....and you idiot DOJ folks do this harassment when someone has other issues to deal with that are far more important....

It is a proud day to be DOJ today me thinkem......

......I wish I was stupider and could not get a private sector job because I could be hired by the great state of California and affect political behavior and also never be able to get fired, only promoted when I pissed my boss off and he wanted to get rid of me!


....we in America are idiots as we think we are free to do what is allegedly legal by codified law.....and people far stupider than us are in charge and can run the lunatic assylum because they dropped out of high school....

Kestryll
08-26-2006, 11:27 PM
I don't think you understand the whole situation. The for sale section just didn't disapear because some one tried to sell something illegally. The moderators already did a great job of cracking down on those cases. The only reason to shut down a perfectly legal section of a website is if you are getting pressure from an outside force.


Actually there are several reasons for shutting down a perfectly legal section of a forum. Ranging from 'I just flat don't want it here' to serious legal and liability issues and many reasons in between. The exact motives for removing the for sale forums have not been told to me in detail however I have some small knowledge and some extrpolations based on what I do know. However this is not my knowledge to share. I may speak on my guesses but no matter what the title under my name says they are only guesses with no solid info behind them.
I really know very little about it. I won't press Ramon for information, he'll tell me and/or the rest of the board when he wants to or can. Until then I will do as I said I would do, help oversee the day to day runnings of Calguns so Ramon can have the time and energy to see to his families best interest. The board has not been set adrift to slowly go over the falls and Ramon has put things in place to see to it's continuation.
I do find it suprising how many threads there are decrying the recent changes and the 'big brother-esque' stance. And yet these threads stay open or undeleted while they rail at the facist kowtowing. Just an observation.

To address a few other points since I am here.
The largest gripes about Calguns that I have seen so far are the loss of the For Sale forums and the word filters limiting the use of certain State Employee's names.
I am going to address these in reverse order and frankly you won't like it.
The only people to blame for the word filter situation is those members who thought it would be cool, witty or in some other way prove their 'net-manlyhood' to post information regarding the off the job lives of these people including personal contact info and info on their children. This was probably the most immature and destructive thing that could have been done in relation to this board. This kind of information can easily be seen as a thinly veiled threat whether it was meant as such or not. Frankly I wouldn't blame DOJ if they took issue with it, if you put something up that I thought could endanger my child I gaurantee you my every effort would be towards your destruction. You don't mess with someone's kids.

I have no idea what if any official action if any took place because of this grand display of stupidity but I sure have my suspicions.
I can't imagine that some level of contact didn't take place if only to advise the removal of said information. My guess is that there may have been some discussion about how even if you win against the State the cost is destructive to the victor.
Many people have urged all out contestation and a 'fight to the end' mentality. Some have alledged cowardice for not 'standing up to the Man'. It never ceases to amaze me just how brave and willing people are to beard the dragon in it's lair when it's someone else's hand that is being put into the jaws. Tenpercent I know you have been near those jaws and I am not trivializing your efforts. However many others seem to feel Ramon owes it to them to fall on his sword for them and their ideals. There's dragons aplenty people, draw your own sword and engage them if you wish but don't try to push others up the hill in front of you.

To further extrapolate about the For Sale forums I have two theories as to what could have happened.
The first theory is that since the DOJ has it's fingers in all parts of the law that covers firearms transactions this would be a good place to start looking for things to scrutinize in detail. Why offer them the easy points?
My second theory is that these forums involve a lot of reliance on the members to conduct themselves with respect for others and on trust that they will not act to cause harm to the forum or it's owners. A few months ago, not too long after the DOJ 'outing' for lack of a better word, we had a lengthy spate of arguing, namecalling, accusations and just generally unfriendly mean spirited behavour. It seemed that several of our members could not act with respect towards their fellow members. If some of these people can not be expected to act civilly and respectfully to others how can they be expected to not cause wave at a time when there may those looking for a cause to champion? Would you leave them the venue to possibly harm you or your family?
Neither of these theories may be correct but hopefully they will give some people pause to stop and consider some possibilities beyond just 'the forums are gone'.

As I said, I don't know for certain if any of these events happened or were the cause of the recent changes. I offered to help admin the site solely in order to give Ramon more time to deal with the really important issue in life. I don't need to know all the details to know I enjoy Calguns and respect Ramon enough be willing to work to see to it's preservation and to see it prosper.
things have changed, thing will change again, this is the nature of life.

One thing is certain, Calguns was started not to be a sales floor or to become the grassroots of 'revolutionary change' but to give California gun owners a place to talk, ask, share and learn without the usual 'give up and get out', 'it's your own fault for living there' or 'just move away!' BS we run into elsewhere. No one else knows or understands what it is to live with and try to make sense of the unique things we do as California gun owners. But we do and we can help each other, that is why Calguns was started and why I will vehemently oppose those who want us to 'just give up'.

Well this has certainly been wordy, anyone still reading this by now? i'd be suprised! ;)

bwiese
08-26-2006, 11:29 PM
I'm thinking of one member in particular. Let's see now...he hates DoJ employees, Christians, most law enforcement, he's always looking for ways get around the law with firearms, he claims the DoJ is spying on members of this forum, drove everyone into a froth over 'off list lowers', and...every full moon or so...he posts the most ridiculous conspiracy theories and paranoid ramblings that they make 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest look tame...


OK, I'll fess up. I don't like DOJ FD employees, in particular (why do their jobs even exist??) and really don't have a whole lotta like for people that take salaries from Big G. I don't have any special dislike for Christians more than for other religions, though I'd rather hang around with Christians than Muslims, unless they have 72 cute virgins around - it's just that I equate religion with lack of analysis, and dependency instead of self-reliance. If you need a mental crutch, go use one.

What I do take offense with is your statement that I am "looking for ways to get around the law with firearms". I actually think what your mixed sytax is intended to mean is that I look for ways to get around firearms law - because I certainly don't use a gun to get around the law! (You saying I'm a bank robber???)

In either case - that of your poor writing's meaning, or what you intended to say - you are wrong. I've been the A#1 areshole here ensuring exact compliance with the law with fairly narrow confines. I dunno how many posts here I've cautioned folks to be "cleaner than Caesar's wife" instead of taking shortcuts. I and others have not exploited loopholes - we just walked into the circumstance of a happy court decision, and an odd interface between statutory and regulatory law.

I have thick skin and don't care what you think of me. I just keep trudgin' along.

Now, his paranoid venom has spread to another forum...
...Hmm...who could that be. I think his name rhymes with Shill Mice.

I did not think the other forum was a great idea for reasons expressed before. Fine, no biggie, I said my piece and moved on and wished others luck. Dilution of forum size is not good, it's all about communication.

But when my attention was called to some funky stuff - not just the strage incoming traffic, that's probably hitting Calguns too! - and I saw how a half-dozen guys went to mod for someone they knew next to nothing about about, that the board was sprung up during 'interesting times', it behooved at a minimum, a security precaution to at least try to protect passwords since I'm sure some Calguns users shared them with Gunscal, as most usernames are the same. My suspicious, in fact, were not original - I was informed of them by some folks and Some Really Smart People and the whole password thing scared me.

I perhaps should've titled my posts on Gunscal better - I had limited time to get them typed, and my posts were being deleted as fast as I typed! My Calguns posts titles were more sedate - but the content of my posts indicated I didn't know, but I certainly had reason for suspicion, and prudence demanded a call for password changes at least.

Prevention is better than remedy, and if 'gunscal' owner turns out to be a standup dude, great. I have little evidence to believe one way or another but to me something smells bad, esp given his background. There's too many coincidences.

What and who does a password change hurt? Nothing and no one.

Back on topic: I read a bit into 10%'s ideas and understand his sentiments and what he's trying to do is ease the burden on Ramon. I think Ramon wants to continue despite his personal load, and Kestryll may be able to help. We do need a Calguns, and Gunscal was not the answer.

Calguns will be fine in a few months. Remember the time of year, OK???

50 Freak
08-26-2006, 11:39 PM
10%,

I for one understand what you were trying to do. If Ramon is getting pressure from the DOJ or whomever, I'm sure he's a smart enough guy to do everything necessary to protect himself.

Calguns is a great resource for those of us caught behind the iron curtain. Had the whole OLL floodgates not been thrown open on Calguns, it would have on the zillions of other boards out there. Either way, I applaud Ramon for the foresight in starting Calguns and should one day it is ever shut down, it will re-emerge in one form or another.

C.G.
08-27-2006, 12:59 AM
In hindsight, the thread title was probably too much.

Well, there is one thing we agree on.

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 7:06 AM
So in a sense, the re-organization of Calguns might have been Ramon's way of getting back to its original form. Get rid of the sales forums and just get back to information. That makes sense.

And I agree with Kestryll 100%, brining the DOJs family into this was probably the reason Ramon might have taken a hit. Before those threads were closed, many of us immediately opposed this and stated it was a bad idea. That is what is nice about this place, we try to police ourselves.

So basically what is going to happen is that if you like for sale threads, you will have to go elsewhere. It does not look lke Calguns is going anywhere! :D

And you didn't hear me complaining about censorship. I know who this board belongs to. And if some morons were mentioning ************'s or ********'s names and it was getting me in trouble, I would put up a word filter too so I could say, "I didn't see their names on my board." :D Again, I don't think some people around here realize what we might have put Ramon through. We might never know.

CALI-gula
08-27-2006, 9:26 AM
...The for sale section just didn't disappear because some one tried to sell something illegally. The moderators already did a great job of cracking down on those cases. The only reason to shut down a perfectly legal section of a website is if you are getting pressure from an outside force. You act like they just got tired of moderating the for sale section. I seriously doubt it. We all moderate this board and have no problems expressing our opinions on legalities.

I still wonder and lean toward suspicion that the removal of the For Sale forums had little if anything to do with CA DOJ. I just don't see for sale forums or classifieds within their radar, as such devices are no more a sale or deal than an NRA Members Council meeting. It's a peaceful assembly and free speech; 1st Amendment and nothing illegal encouraged. A webpage does not act as a custodian of an actual firearm sale even by posting a forum for people to meet with like interests. One person posts, another responds, there is nothing encouraging an illegal sale in the process. All is expected as anyone would expect, that the parties will meet at an FFL. It is no different than if a bank advertises, and you go to the local branch, it is assumed you are going there to open up an account, not rob the place with a FN FAL. Is the bank an accessory to their own robbery because they advertise? Is Walgreens an accessory to the production of certain illegal drugs because they sell Sudafed? (DOJ has made them keep it behind the counter).

Possible, maybe DOJ did raise a voice over the OLL issue as it relates to Calguns, and might have voiced that if they found someone building an illegal configuration AW out of an OLL, and that detained twit said he got the contact to buy the OLL originally from Calguns, then they would make Ramon and his website contributory to the matter. Still find it hard to believe the DOJ would give a poop.

But no... because of this crazy litigious world we live in, my true instinct suspects a certain individual perturbed over the flack he got for his "flexible price" post for a Garand may have caused a lot of flack for Calguns.net. Ebay has experienced lawsuits like this over their feedback and forums. A member does something stupid and other members leave negative feedback or chastise him a good one. Then that person resorts to terms like "Defamation of character", "Slander", "Libel", "Bad faith", "Obstruction of business", etc.

Then it gets heavy, and you have to close the forum to prevent other idiots from doing the same, or to prevent future anecdotal posts on the one idiot, or inadvertently any posts about said idiot in existence - how do you be sure none of the latter happens? Remove the whole For Sale forum.


.

CALI-gula
08-27-2006, 10:09 AM
....You are a kook. You are one of the primary reasons this forum has gone into the crapper. If (and that's a big if) there are 'DoJ agents' scouring this forum it is because of you. Any knowledge or benefit you introduce is trumped by your space cadet paranoia and conspiracy theories.

I reiterate my original suggestion. Ramon/Kestryll, dump him. His 'church of Bill' will follow him out. 90% of the problems will leave. The forum will return to normal...


Ironic. As I noted above, maybe such unprovoked personal attacks on other members are the reason the forum has "gone into the crapper"? What's the purpose? As I cited, I think the personal attacks may have been the reason the For Sale forum is no longer.

I like discussion and philosophy that pushes the envelope and I rarely found Bill to lob insidious personal attacks on others - pointing out an error or falsehood in the line of debate is NOT a personal attack. And I have seen MUCH worse in the realm of conspiracy theory than within any of Bill's posts on this forum. Open discussion is bound to lead to the brink of script that states "Here there be monsters". If not, everyone would still believe the world is flat. Do with it as you will, don't take the advice or accept discovery, and travel nowhere, since you know the world is flat and are content that Off List Lowers are illegal.

Some don't like the OLL situation for various contrived reasons, so it would be natural to make Bill the target, however, a target for pointing out a DOJ flaw should not make him a target for personal attacks. Everyone makes mistakes, Bill might have made a few, and of those mistakes which some may not like about Bill, I don't think any of those mistakes were so foreboding that they are the sole angst of Calguns.net.


.

6172crew
08-27-2006, 10:11 AM
MRex21, Id delete what you said in order to keep the thread going. Its in black and white (the rules that is).

chickenfried
08-27-2006, 10:21 AM
Real classy, use a member's mistake, as a launch pad for a personal attack :rolleyes: . Seems like you're part of the problem. As far as a cult of Bill, I was one of the first to question Bwiese's gunscal posts. Does that mean his views on law enforcement are "wrong" and your overzealous law enforcement can do no wrong mindset is "right"? I don't think so :rolleyes: No it means he's human and sometime's he makes bad decisions. Despite what some people think :p :)

chickenfried
08-27-2006, 10:24 AM
Fine I'll change it to sometimes he makes the wrong decisions, like the rest of us. Like that better?

SemiAutoSam
08-27-2006, 10:51 AM
Is there a comet close by that we might follow ? Coordinates to the mother ship below.

Shoot and Q right before launch.

22°17'1.33"N 114°10'22.21"E

dhl
08-27-2006, 12:39 PM
Boys, boys please. Let's stop the tit for tat, now. Let's behave like the mature adults I know us all to be. Ramon might like you being nice, better than the ridiculous veiled name calling going on right now in this thread that's got nothing to do with the purpose of this board. You want to argue and fight, do it in privately agreed to email and you see how long you want to keep it up. The rest of us get tired of you butting heads on this site and trying to go each other one up.

Grakken
08-27-2006, 1:04 PM
Can we close this thread or lock it? Since the OP thread has officially been hijacked into a lets bash each other thread?

to comment on the OP thread. Ramon can do as he pleases. If he wants to shut down the sit that is his perogative. All I can say is that I hope he doesnt go that route. If it werent for this site, I would still be in the dark and so would 2 of my firends. Calguns is an excellent resource for us Kalifornians. This site rules! Keep up the good work.

Kestryll
08-27-2006, 1:46 PM
Can we close this thread or lock it? Since the OP thread has officially been hijacked into a lets bash each other thread?

to comment on the OP thread. Ramon can do as he pleases. If he wants to shut down the sit that is his perogative. All I can say is that I hope he doesnt go that route. If it werent for this site, I would still be in the dark and so would 2 of my firends. Calguns is an excellent resource for us Kalifornians. This site rules! Keep up the good work.

It's not going to be locked but i have edited out much of the personal attacks.

If the bashing and attacks continue the thread will stay but the poster will not.
It's pretty straightfoward and simple.

SemiAutoSam
08-27-2006, 1:56 PM
Kest

Mi last post wasn't a personal attack just a slight attempt at humor.

Who does not love coolaid and doughnuts well at least most cops love doughnuts.

did anyone happen to check out those coordinates ? 22°17'1.33"N 114°10'22.21"E

If you would have gone and saw what was there you would have seen the humor in it.

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 4:08 PM
This is about you and your "Dudley Do-Right" attempt to get this board shut down.I can't shut down the board. Only Ramon can. And as so many of you have put it, that is Ramon's decision. Sorry, it isn't about me. I think the only thing this thread is going to do is energize Ramon and Calguns will continue. If he chooses the other way, then it was solely his decision. Again, this thread has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Ramon.

C.G.
08-27-2006, 5:01 PM
So, can we now conclude that Ramon probably knows best about what is good for him and this forum and be done with this thread?

ivanimal
08-27-2006, 5:34 PM
What on this earth gives you the need to try and tell Ramon what to do by giving him your permission?

Wes we usually agree. Not this time. I have been here from the start and the forum looks to be healthier since the closing of all the OLL threads. I miss the sale threads but now I can visit gun stores like yours instead of doing it online.


There is a definite line between those who remember a forum like it was and a forum like it became.

Ramon is a man and will do as he pleases not as we wish.

rkt88edmo
08-27-2006, 6:39 PM
After reading the first post my reaction was, "Hey Wes-trogen, quit riding your scooter indoors" :p

I'll miss the side perk of great PPT deals through the FS forums, but it isn't the firearms that makes CG, its the shooters :D

The saddest part is how half this thread has nothing to do with CG/Ramon.

capitol
08-27-2006, 6:46 PM
Wes,

You finally went overboard and I'm happy to see you get knocked down several pegs :)

You may want to remember why YOU originally became a member of this forum.....it was to make money. We were here long before you to chat about our hobby.

11Z50
08-27-2006, 7:11 PM
Yes, Capitol. There was a Calguns prior to the OLL madness. I remember those days.....we could all chat about guns we were interested in, talk amongst friends.... Yes.

The whole OLL movement is out of control and can take a hike. If anybody is that seriously in lust with an AW, I know a few recruiters that can help out. Otherwise, right wrong or indifferent, don't break the law. It only serves to harm the rest of us.

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 7:49 PM
How many times am I going to have to say this, this thread is not about me. Most of your comments critical of me and my sanity is the exact reason why I created this thread. So many of you expect Ramon to keep this baby running because of what it did for the cause. I just wanted to let Ramon know if he wants to let go of this thing, he should let go. We will still gather somewhere and we will still keep doing our part here in California. Then you guys come along and take it personal.

And I am not out of line by telling Ramon I would understand if he shut it down. As I posted in the original post, Ramon was at a point where he was just about ready to give in and you can read it for yourself here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=38461). All Ramon has to do is come on and tell us he is going no where and he will never give in, then this discussion is over. Until then, I will keep being the brunt of all of your negative energy and I have no problems with that. Sometimes unpopular things have to be talked about around here.

Just in case some of you think I am ungrateful, I don't understand why. I have give just as much to Calguns as it has given to me. 1240+ posts couldn't have been all for sale threads and you all know they weren't. Again, Ramon gave us a place to gather, but we made Calguns what it is, together, with Ramon and his guidance. And we also made some problems for Ramon as well. I think it would be selfish of us to say he has to continue on at great personal loss because we like to hang out here.

As soon as Ramon gives us an answer, I will support him fully. And he can take as long as he wants. This thead always has and always will be about what Ramon wants. Unfortunately my thread title should have been worded differently and there, it has been changed.

6172crew
08-27-2006, 7:54 PM
Yes, Capitol. There was a Calguns prior to the OLL madness. I remember those days.....we could all chat about guns we were interested in, talk amongst friends.... Yes.

The whole OLL movement is out of control and can take a hike. If anybody is that seriously in lust with an AW, I know a few recruiters that can help out. Otherwise, right wrong or indifferent, don't break the law. It only serves to harm the rest of us.

I remember just a few names when I signed up at this board, I found it from a link off of Jim Marshes board.

As one of the first guys to sign up here (I think there were 12 guys signed up then) I think the OLL deal was a great time and about the only thing wrong with it was the lack of leadership from some of us(the OG members) .

I for one was happy to get a break in the "hows the ol' keltec or fab10 going" type post and feel like we won a battle by making sure every Kalifonian who was legal to own a rifle got a OLL, FAL, PTR, SW5, or what ever the hell else didnt show up here in the last 5 years. :cool:


We now have a fantastic FFL list and the guys from out of state are helping out because we made calls, wrote letters, sent emails, etc. This didnt happen with the old board it happened with the help of new guys. I think we should keep pointing folks to CWS, 10%, DDsRanch, Atlantic Firearms, etc just in case the law makers try to pull another fast one on us.

We now have a NRA rep who shows up here to help those with kids or night shift and gives us the inside scoop, we didnt have anything like that before the OLL thing and I can remember the closest thing to a meeting was the shoot n q's and the nations meeting which were great but I was looking for something more and I think we have it now....IMHO

During the OOL thing I watched as the senior members just started to go away instead up stepping up and taking the board back and making sure things went the way you wanted.

It should have been a good time for everyone of us and if you didnt make it that way then it was your own fault.

Sorry if I offended anyone but this is my take.:)

chickenfried
08-27-2006, 8:05 PM
But the biggest question of this thread is why does Ramon, to borrow the vernacular of the streets, "a grown ****** man", need a thread saying he can close calguns if he wants? He's a "grown ****** man" I think he knows he can close calguns if he so chooses. So no, it does not appear IMO that this thread is about Ramon, but rather .........actually I have no idea what the point of this thread be.

BigMac
08-27-2006, 8:07 PM
I just skipped 5 pages because I could care less about the 10% is crazy stuff..

There was life before calguns and calguns was definetly a different site before the OLR (off list reciever) stuff.

Ramon,
You have the respect of most of us reguardless of what you choose to do with this site.
I want to personally thank you for many fine hours I've shared with the other CA gun nuts.
If the site closes becuase you have had enough of the BS that end up going with it I would welcome you on any other board I frequent as a friend to the entire gun culture..

I will support any decision you choose to make.

capitol
08-27-2006, 8:32 PM
How many times am I going to have to say this, this thread is not about me. Most of your comments critical of me and my sanity is the exact reason why I created this thread. I have give just as much to Calguns as it has given to me. 1240+ posts couldn't have been all for sale thread

ALL 1240 + posts are you posting stuff for sale Your current signature reads

The new and improved www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We have lots of AR parts in stock ready to ship. .

They are ALL For Sale threads Wess. If you think I'm wrong then stop selling your products here. Then we will see how much you value our forum by your participation in the future.

6172crew
08-27-2006, 8:39 PM
:cool: :cool: I'm sorry, but this paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. Looking at the grammar and capitalization, it seems that two or three sentences were put in a blender, and this is the milkshake that came out. I could try to guess what you mean, but it would probably be nicer if you could edit or rewrite a longer and more intelligible version of this paragraph, because it probably contains a very important part of your post.


No, not at all, completely on the contrary.

Holly Mojito run on battman. :D Sorry folks Im getting my boys ready for the first day of school and should have waited to post after looking at what I wrote.

Semper Gumby!

11Z50
08-27-2006, 8:41 PM
Yes, indeed, 10% is off my list! (10%OML?)

This whole thing got crazy when Wes and Bill did the San Jose Gun Show thing. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 8:42 PM
They are ALL For Sale threads Wess. If you think I'm wrong then stop selling your products here. Then we will see how much you value our forum by your participation in the future.Show me a recent thread where I tried to sell something. Even if you can, I will show you several more where I didn't. You are making baseless accusations and I am calling you on it. Either provide proof or retract your comments. Oh wait, you weren't talking to me, my name is Wes. You probably were talking to Wiese and misspelled his name. :D

But seriously, show me a recent for sale thread. Any thead where I say, "I have this for sale". If you are going to make public accusations, you will be required to follow through.

capitol
08-27-2006, 8:46 PM
Show me a recent thread where I tried to sell something. Even if you can

Are you serious? This is posted in everyone of your posts Wes.


The new and improved www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We have lots of AR parts in stock ready to ship.

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 8:50 PM
Sig lines are for sale threads? Interesting theory. So because I have my business in my sig line, every single one of my threads having nothing to do with my business and explaining everything from firearms performance, to FFL rules, to my OLL drama opinions is a for sale thread? Rubber bands aren't the only thing stretching around here. You are claiming I am only here for sales. I have shown proof that is simply a false statement. The burden of proof is still on you. Sig lines are not posts. They are sig lines. However, lets forget semantics.

What is the real deal Capitol? Why is this about me and not about Ramon? :confused:

capitol
08-27-2006, 9:01 PM
As you wish. When I see you remove from your sig The new and improved www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We have lots of AR parts in stock ready to ship. and you continue participating in this forum I will believe in you. Until then you are a very active dealer selling your items on Calguns asking Ramon to make a decision per your request.

kantstudien
08-27-2006, 9:06 PM
Until then you are a very active dealer selling your items on Calguns asking Ramon to make a decision per your request.

Why would a "very active dealer" request that the forum where he is "pimping" his items be shut down? :confused:

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 9:07 PM
You are entitled to your opinion. It doesn't appear to be supported by logic or reasoning. A sig line is not active selling. Maybe passive, but not active. I also have changed my thread title for this thread. Only in the title did it appear I was making a request. Everything else I have said has only been a suggestion. If Ramon wants to shut it down, he should do so without having to worry about the people on here who think he owes us something or somehow without him the cause would die. You keep attributing actions to me that are simply not true.

C.G.
08-27-2006, 9:11 PM
But the biggest question of this thread is why does Ramon, to borrow the vernacular of the streets, "a grown ****** man", need a thread saying he can close calguns if he wants? He's a "grown ****** man" I think he knows he can close calguns if he so chooses. So no, it does not appear IMO that this thread is about Ramon, but rather .........actually I have no idea what the point of this thread be.


Big +1. Something I've been trying to point out in couple of my posts in this thread. I guess nobody reads them.;)

At this point this thread is useless! If you don't cut it out I will have to bring out the Seabiscuit.:eek:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif

Now look what you made me do!:D

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 9:19 PM
This whole thing got crazy when Wes and Bill did the San Jose Gun Show thing. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.LOL. I missed that one earlier. Screw you Artherd, you had nothing to do with this, it was all Bill and I. Screw you everyone who ever bought a lower, this is our show. Screw you Cold War Shooters, Metroshot, San Jose Gun Exchange, Ade's, Rogers Relics, Brightspot, JD Security, Dave Crow and I am not sure how many others, Bill and I were the only ones selling these things. That is right, all of you who bought OLLs, you are wrong! You were wrong then and you are wrong now! :rolleyes: Damn, I think this thread might really be done.

Kestryll
08-27-2006, 9:31 PM
What is the real deal Capitol? Why is this about me and not about Ramon? :confused:

Because you started a thread telling Ramon to close the place down since it no longer fit your idea of what it should be.
You seem to come on later attempting to revise the intent with 'no I'm being supportive if he WANTS to close it down'.
Now the second comment may well have been your intent all along and I truely hope it was but your presentation left a very different feel to it. What ever your original intent the message that was most interpretable was turn off the lights the party is over.
I will say this, I don't know your true intent though I have my suspicions. As of now I am more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the original post was just poorly constructed and did not convey your message accurately.

I will add that I do find things like this a bit confusing:As soon as Ramon gives us an answer, I will support him fully. And he can take as long as he wants. This thead always has and always will be about what Ramon wants.
The first thing is what is the expectation that Ramon needs to respond to this to settle it? This thread was about your advice or offer of support but never about what Ramon wants or he would have made it.
Second, I don't know if you saw it but back in post #29 I said a few small words as to whether or not Calguns was shutting down.
Now Ramon could decide tomorrow to just axe the whole thing but that has been his perogative from the beginning. As far as any plan however, as Ramon said calguns is going back to it's roots for a while at least as a discussion board. As I said I have been tasked with helping to see to it's achieving that end.
No, Ramon has not responded to this however I have and I know Ramon has seen my response and not changed it nor contacted me to tell me to change it in any way. The title under my name is not just for show, I am commited to seeing Ramon's desires for Calguns through and I have my own desires for it as well. Fortuitously my desires match Ramon's and so I can work at it wholeheartedly.
If you really must have an answer then here it is.
Unless Ramon has the kind of sudden change of heart that has always been a possibility from the beginning Calguns is here to stay. Perhaps not in the format that some would prefer but as has been said, it can't be everything for everybody.

Now, for the last time, can we discuss and debate with courtesy and civility as befits grown mature people? Show the respect you'd like to get, you may be suprised at what you can get for it.

Kest

6172crew
08-27-2006, 9:34 PM
Yes, indeed, 10% is off my list! (10%OML?)

This whole thing got crazy when Wes and Bill did the San Jose Gun Show thing. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

As wacky as Wes's thread has gotton I didnt think Id see this one.:eek:

The guy drove from Taft to the SJ gun show and took a stand against the man.

Brass ones boys, brass ones.:cool: I still think he hit his head this morning.:D

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 9:41 PM
Guilty as charged Kestryll. The thread title was worded poorly and came off wrong. It really is about Ramon. I have dealt with extreme pressure related to the gun business and it isn't fun. I was at least making money, I don't think Ramon is making any money, probably just losing it.

I definitely saw your comments and responded to them. It appears that Calguns is trying to get back to its roots and as Ramon said, this place can't be everything for everybody. Fair enough.

6172crew, Ramon shutting this place down because of the flack it has caused him doesn't have to be a bad thing. I think the people who are so upset with me for even suggesting it think it would be a defeat for us. I don't see it that way. Just like when Fulton Armory decided not to send lowers in to me, it was not a defeat for us. All of you went around that and still took care of business. The spirt of Calguns will never die. We will carry it on whether it is at Calguns or anywhere else. The DOJ cannot stop what this thing is really about. Liberty and free men standing up for themselves. I didn't think I had brass balls back in the day, I think I was just stupid to listen to Bill Wiese! Just like I must have been stupid to try and suggest Ramon shut down his site if it causes him constant grief. I guess I am just not that smart.

Ok, this thing has run its course. Kestryll cannot speak for Ramon, but I think he is close enough for me. Calguns will continue. It is heading back to its roots and no one is going anywhere. This issue is settled, at least for me.

thmpr
08-27-2006, 9:44 PM
I'm confused....????:confused: What happened from the first post till now.....sounds like a pointing game here....:eek:

blkA4alb
08-27-2006, 9:45 PM
I'm confused....????:confused: What happened from the first post till now.....sounds like a pointing game here....:eek:
:rolleyes: You don't want to know.... :rolleyes: Its over, I hope.

Kestryll
08-27-2006, 9:45 PM
This issue is settled, at least for me.

Powdered Moose Cake and ice cream on the veranda!!

metalhead357
08-27-2006, 9:55 PM
DANG!!!!!!!!!!

Anybody got some popcorn?????? and a diagram?????

This thread is getting interesting and confusing:p

So, now while NOT TAKING Tenpercents's side- the question was raised about why people are yelling at Tenpercent when he publically voiced an opinion to Ramom.

I'd have to agree with the sentiment (at least). To be fair~ all comments should theoretically be addressed to Ramon as well. Focus on the messege peeeps- NOT the messenger............. emperor, no clothes, baby and bath water:confused: I know it was at least one of these:D

So can I can my sig line to

I have Nothing to sell, You WILL buy it and like it!!!!!!!!!!!!

CALI-gula
08-28-2006, 2:48 AM
...If anybody is that seriously in lust with an AW, I know a few recruiters that can help out. Otherwise, right wrong or indifferent, don't break the law. It only serves to harm the rest of us.

Ah yes, the words of Gray Davis... you know, he used to say stuff exactly like that during his campaigns... "If you want to shoot an Assault Weapon, then join the Army"... etc. Come to think of it, the same could be said about any guns, Beretta 92, Remington 700, Benelli and Remington shotguns, Colt 1911's, M1 Garand, and most anything else that shoots a bullet as the principles are all the same in the eyes of the Anti-2nd Amendment crowd.

What makes that post more egregious is that it is infiltrated with the erroneous statement that buying Off List Lowers and building them into legal configurations within the limitations of Roberti-Roos and SB23 is breaking the law. Well, newsflash! it's not. Your opinion does not make it so, and the DOJ's actions continuously show the Off List Lowers and legal configurations are not illegal. I welcome opinions in oppostion to the OLL issues, but declaring it illegal without backing it up with details of why, is a pointless venture.

You continue later by calling certain others partaking in legal purchases as "wrong then, and it's wrong now." It might not fit into your spectrum of what is acceptable, or what you plain like or dislike in your choice of firearms, and you can call it wrong all you wish, because it is wrong for you, but whether you like it or not, it's not against the law. Again, your opinion is welcome, but your opinion does not make it the law.

Some people tootle around in a Toyota Prius or Honda Hybrid, and scowl heavily at those driving a Dodge Viper or Ford Mustang, which owning or driving the latter is "wrong" to those golf-cart types, but it is not illegal. If both cars are driving at 63MPH on the highway in a 65MPH zone, then neither driver is breaking the law no matter who says it is "right, wrong, or indifferent".

You might not like the vehicle, but legal is legal, and Remington .223 out of an OLL is just as efficient and goes the about the same speed as when shot out of my old pre-64 Winchester Model 70. The Off List Lowers in .223 are no more nefarious than your SU-16B and your Savage .223 varmint rifle. Yet all of the latter are "wrong" in the views of those that wish to ban all firearm ownership.

Don't distort the legitimacy and legality of the OLL aspects merely because they are not a favored choice in your selection of firearms.

I see this recurring problem here where too many individuals want a board that fits their EXACT opinion. Why would you ever want that? What would be revealed or what would you ever learn? Your concepts might be wrong and never challenged; you may as well sit around the house and talk to yourself so nobody ever argues with you or brings up a counterpoint. What's the point of coming to this board at all for discussion if everyone agrees with you? Can you imagine that? One person would post a topic or statement and then the rest of the thread would be comprised of nothing but single-line follow-ups saying "Yes" and "Definitely" and "I agree" and "Right On" or "I concur".

Talk about boring - literally, it would be talk, about boring.


.

Kestryll
08-28-2006, 11:52 AM
Sorry, that's not at all the way I read tenpercent's first post. Rather on the contrary. Now, it might be that I have a reading comprehension problem, but I find that unlikely. Matter-of-fact, if one re-reads his original post, there is a clear exposition in the first few paragraphs of the reasoning behind his suggestion. I read his original post as: "Running calguns must have been very hard on Ramon. If he wants to take a break now, that would be understandable."
If you look back I am addressing 10%'s question of "why is this about me?" and explaining that one very potential reason is that this is the perception that can be taken away from it. I stated very clearly that while there could be some confusion I am very willing to give the benefit of the doubt in my own mind that it was simply the lack of depth that written communication has.
I am also hoping that other might read that and give a second thought to the concept before launching into an attack on 10% or his detractors. This may not be the 8 page worthy fight that it has become.



Accusing tenpercent of showing lack of courtesy, civility, and respect is laughably wrong. In particular if one compares his demeanor and contributiosn to many of the flaming jerks who regularly post here. This is an insult. Please withdraw that comment.
I will not withdraw the comment.
If you have been following this thread you will have seen the near dozen posts attacking or defending 10% and others. Even some who felt compelled to defend Ramon went overboard. I have had to delete far more posts than is reasonable in a courteous and respectful discussion.
You will notice I said can WE, not can you. At no point was that comment directed at 10% and neither from his reply did he see it as such. Since those who would vilify or deride their fellow board members will always exsist my statement is still valid. Yet again given the lack of depth of written communication perhaps this was not as clear as it would have been in person.


I also have a problem with you, Kestryll, participating in the discussion in this hands-on (gloves off?) fashion. You can either be an impartial moderator and administrator, or you can be a participant. It is extremely difficult to be both. I would counsel you to keep a more hands-off approach to the forum as long as you are an official here.

Before I was a moderator and long before I became an administrator I was a member and participant in this forum. While I may signifigantly subdue much of my own beliefs, thoughts and views on subjects here in defference to these positions they do not remove my opinions. If you look back you will see that I have presented 10% with a concpt of how this could have been taken out of context, admonished some other posters not to make things personal and given my thoughts on what is going on, whay and how it might resolve in the end. None of which I feel was terribly extreme as far as action/reaction goes.
Were I to have addressed this post in a 'gloves off' fashion the options could have ranged from simply deleting the post at the outset and PMing 10% to banning, either temp or permanent, several people who tried to take thing to a more personal level of aggression. And there are many more equally unpleasent options in between those two.
But these serve no one and only further the problem.
I have tried to answer the questions as best as I can, I have offered my thoughts on how the thread evolved and why and I have done my job in regards to those who would stretch or break the rules using the least tools available. If you feel I have gone too far all I can say is that we apparently have a different view on this. That is niether good nor bad it just is, the different views we have make discussion interesting.

Kest

Kestryll
08-28-2006, 12:31 PM
Thank you for clarifying and explaining your position. I can accept that, even if in my dream world the ideal moderator/admin would be someone who does not have strong viewpoints. In reality, it matters less in a technical forum, where most questions can be answered without recourse to ideology. For example, whether a 9mm round fits into a Ruger Mark II, or whether it is legal to buy a 30-round mag in Nevada and use it in California, are not questions where a moderator has to be careful to be impartial and not let his bias show; instead the answers to such questions are cut-and-dried.

Ralph

I do try to moderate, for lack of a better word, my views and opinion usually but it does get difficult at times. The curse of being human.

As for the 9mm in the Ruger MKII, make a paste of clarified butter and powdered moose, layer it on to the 9mm round and the Mark II magazine and apply a 4 pound crosspeen hammer liberally.
The buter provides lubrictaion, the powdered moose provides teture and the crosspeen hammer homogenizes the element in to one form.



Don't try this at home, go next door and do it in their garage.

STAGE 2
08-28-2006, 5:43 PM
This is a private forum so the owners rule's apply. However, when the ship is sinking, private or not, no amount of positive comments or steadfast resolve will change the circumstances.

Of all of the gun boards that I am a member of, which are quite a few, there is only one other that does not allow sales of firearms. To my knowledge this was at the owners direction from the inception.

As californians we need all the help we can get, and stripping calguns to a bare bones offering just aint gonna get us there.

C.G.
08-28-2006, 6:37 PM
This is a private forum so the owners rule's apply. However, when the ship is sinking, private or not, no amount of positive comments or steadfast resolve will change the circumstances.

Of all of the gun boards that I am a member of, which are quite a few, there is only one other that does not allow sales of firearms. To my knowledge this was at the owners direction from the inception.

As californians we need all the help we can get, and stripping calguns to a bare bones offering just aint gonna get us there.

How do you know that not having a sales of firearms was at the owner's direction from the inception. :confused: Calguns allowed sales of firearms for a long, long time, if it hadn't been for Calguns, there would most likely be a lot less OLLs in CA; not having sales of firearms is only a recent development.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with it; at this point it is not a bad thing for Calguns to go barebones.

STAGE 2
08-28-2006, 7:12 PM
How do you know that not having a sales of firearms was at the owner's direction from the inception. :confused:


From the threads/posts of other members and mods. But this really doesnt have enything to do with anything. The point is that 99% of gun boards have a for sale section. Theres no reason why Calguns shouldn't, or at the very least have some explanation as to why they were dropped.

C.G.
08-28-2006, 7:33 PM
From the threads/posts of other members and mods. But this really doesnt have enything to do with anything. The point is that 99% of gun boards have a for sale section. Theres no reason why Calguns shouldn't, or at the very least have some explanation as to why they were dropped.

There is an explanation. Several members had trouble following rules in the For Sale Forum, in spite of explicit directions what may be sold etc. and warnings.

6172crew
08-28-2006, 8:05 PM
There is an explanation. Several members had trouble following rules in the For Sale Forum, in spite of explicit directions what may be sold etc. and warnings.
I think we all miss the for sale board but it came at a price. There wasnt one week that went by that something didnt get out of hand and reported back to Ramon.

"....Its like Im playin cards with my brothers kids or somethin".:D

ivanimal
08-28-2006, 8:09 PM
This is a private forum so the owners rule's apply. However, when the ship is sinking, private or not, no amount of positive comments or steadfast resolve will change the circumstances.

Of all of the gun boards that I am a member of, which are quite a few, there is only one other that does not allow sales of firearms. To my knowledge this was at the owners direction from the inception.

As californians we need all the help we can get, and stripping calguns to a bare bones offering just aint gonna get us there.


How many of those boards reside in CA?

Yes we have it differnt here.

I already stated I miss the for sale forum, however I am and am sure you are resourceful enough to get what we need elsewhere. Move on please.

As for the moderation of these forums, I have had to delete, edit or communicate the rules 100 times more often since the OLL thing. Many here tried every sly way to get away with things, they new were pushing the limit. I for one am glad we are returning to what was normal.

This is a forum to help people understand the law and avoid breaking it. I will follow the law, as always, and try to help others to that end. That is my reason for taking the time to moderate. Not to be impatial or behind the scenes.

hoffmang
08-28-2006, 9:01 PM
First, this is Ramon's party and he can do with it what he wants, but he faces the jury of history on his choices.

He can claim all he wants that he didn't want to get here or that he had different intentions, but the horse left the barn and where we all are where we are. Ramon's Calguns has a unique opportunity and a unique risk of either maintaining significant momentum or causing a real splinter in the significant progress made.

Let me start with the fact that people posting information about the children of individuals on the other side of a politically oriented dispute is a practice in the worst taste possible.

Now that I've said that, everything else is a bit of an issue. That Ramon or others do not understand that they are Federally shielded from prosecution for posts made by people who aren't Ramon is not a good thing. If I want to tar and feather a public servant who has public information about her marathon running available or his accidental discharge, I have that right. I don't have a right to not be edited here because its not my property. I do have the right to question the editorial decision that goes into editing out statement of facts by third parties. As a side note here, actively editing could cause more culpabiltiy than not editing as much. Defending speech or a forum simply takes insurance. Please all - get some. It's not going to cost as much as a single nice rifle.

Coming soon - a primer on what is or is not legal to say about supposed in process law enforcement activities in an online forum...

Ramon - I'll state it publicly - I'll buy Calguns from you for cash and leave you with a right to buy it back in a fixed amount of time for a fixed price. The beauty of the rule of law is that it is just that and that would allow all a bit more comfort and security for us all. In lieu of that, lets make sure that Calguns has the legal team ready and primed to keep Calguns free as a public platform to speak.

Sadly, we've all been exposed to the types of misbehavior that we all hoped had ended in government with Tammany Hall...

-Gene

Kestryll
08-28-2006, 11:55 PM
It's up to Ramon to answer directly if he chooses but I have a question.

Why is it some people are so intent that Calguns be something other than what Ramon has said he wanted it to be?
I mean this as a serious question. We have people saying close it, reopen everything, sell it, give it to someone and so on. There are also quite a few who like what it is.
What is wrong with Ramon saying 'This is how I want it to be.' and just letting it go at that?
I am not trying to be snide, I am seriously curious, things like this intrigue me.

C.G.
08-29-2006, 12:27 AM
It's up to Ramon to answer directly if he chooses but I have a question.

Why is it some people are so intent that Calguns be something other than what Ramon has said he wanted it to be?
I mean this as a serious question. We have people saying close it, reopen everything, sell it, give it to someone and so on. There are also quite a few who like what it is.
What is wrong with Ramon saying 'This is how I want it to be.' and just letting it go at that?
I am not trying to be snide, I am seriously curious, things like this intrigue me.


Makes two of us. I guess we are a minority.

tankerman
08-29-2006, 4:11 AM
It's up to Ramon to answer directly if he chooses but I have a question.

Why is it some people are so intent that Calguns be something other than what Ramon has said he wanted it to be?
I mean this as a serious question. We have people saying close it, reopen everything, sell it, give it to someone and so on. There are also quite a few who like what it is.
What is wrong with Ramon saying 'This is how I want it to be.' and just letting it go at that?
I am not trying to be snide, I am seriously curious, things like this intrigue me.

I think that the reason so many folks are getting worked up about the changes it that there is a feeling that it may all be caused by outside influences i.e. DOJ, LE or fear of litigation.
It's to difficult to tell if "This is how I want it to be" is just that, or if a arm is being twisted out of sight.

Also, I have never felt very good about having VENDORS involved in forums.(Fox guarding the chicken coop) We are consantly bombarded by advertising everywhere, an open forum that is labeled for discussion is not the place to be "PIMPING your goods"


10% not every thought needs to be shared.

blkA4alb
08-29-2006, 10:21 AM
Makes two of us. I guess we are a minority.
I'll be a minority as well then.

hoffmang
08-29-2006, 10:40 AM
Kestryll,

I had hoped I had hit on my point about caring what happens to Calguns in my post above, but I'll attempt to further elucidate.

The history of the rights of gun owners in California has generally been down hill since the Hand Gun Ban was defeated in the 1980s. Those of us with the resources, time, and desire to do something about it have felt that there was little hope and it was better to focus on the Federal level and wait for an opportunity to re-import sanity and our rights at a later date.

The OLL phenomenon pointed out that opposition to lawful gun ownership was weak, fragmented, and could to a large extent be hoisted on their own bureaucratic petard. Calguns became the epicenter of that movement. For the first time in a long time there is real momentum to push back the victim disarmament movement using an Army of Davids (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595550542/103-9574796-3084661?v=glance&n=283155) approach. Not only has this forum evolved beyond what Ramon wanted - it is now keeping the gun rights organization honest and connected with the community. Any gun owner in California who wants to do something can use this site as a central organization point to plan, marshal, and implement political and legal strategies as well as obtain practical tactical advice.

Ramon created a venue that created a movement. If Ramon would like to ignore that he can, but he risks endangering that movement's momentum by endangering its forum. If Ramon wants to just have this be a place to talk about caliber, then those of us who want to roll back restrictions may be forced to create another forum and incur all the switching costs. Why add more costs to a volunteer fight, especially when there are ways that can foster both what Ramon apparently originally wanted and support the efforts of all sorts of Californians to keep the momentum on rolling back bad gun laws.

Does that make more sense Kestryll?

-Gene

mailman
08-29-2006, 12:39 PM
It has come to the point lately where the only reason to show up here is to correct what people post.

MAYBE EVERYONE COULD THERE PART IN CONTROLLING THEMSELVES SO THAT THIS IS NOT RAMON'S ONLY REASON TO SHOW UP!

STAGE 2
08-29-2006, 2:12 PM
There is an explanation. Several members had trouble following rules in the For Sale Forum, in spite of explicit directions what may be sold etc. and warnings.


As there are on every forum on the internet. Does that mean the proper solution is to close the forum?:rolleyes:

Do we ban everyone from using firearms because some misuse them?

STAGE 2
08-29-2006, 2:14 PM
How many of those boards reside in CA?

Yes we have it differnt here.


No we really dont. Get a good lawyer to draft a proper user agreement and most if not all of the legal issues that one would face would be neutralized.

There will always be people that will try and bend things, but the issue is liability and not prevention.

Kestryll
08-29-2006, 3:50 PM
Thanks for your response, it does give one aspect of why there is such concern over the changes.
Kestryll,

I had hoped I had hit on my point about caring what happens to Calguns in my post above, but I'll attempt to further elucidate.

The history of the rights of gun owners in California has generally been down hill since the Hand Gun Ban was defeated in the 1980s. Those of us with the resources, time, and desire to do something about it have felt that there was little hope and it was better to focus on the Federal level and wait for an opportunity to re-import sanity and our rights at a later date.

The OLL phenomenon pointed out that opposition to lawful gun ownership was weak, fragmented, and could to a large extent be hoisted on their own bureaucratic petard. Calguns became the epicenter of that movement. For the first time in a long time there is real momentum to push back the victim disarmament movement using an Army of Davids (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595550542/103-9574796-3084661?v=glance&n=283155) approach. Not only has this forum evolved beyond what Ramon wanted - it is now keeping the gun rights organization honest and connected with the community. Any gun owner in California who wants to do something can use this site as a central organization point to plan, marshal, and implement political and legal strategies as well as obtain practical tactical advice.
All of the things you list, "a central organization point to plan, marshal, and implement political and legal strategies as well as obtain practical tactical advice." can still be done here as long as the rules of civility, courtesy and respect are followed not only towards your fellow members but towards others as well.

Ramon created a venue that created a movement. If Ramon would like to ignore that he can, but he risks endangering that movement's momentum by endangering its forum.
As much as I understand the thought behind this I am left to wonder at the expectation that Ramon set aside his personal desires for the site he created for the betterment of a 'movement'. That's a pretty high level of expectation. And honestly I don't see how the loss of the For Sale forums affects that aspect at all.
The only strictures that should have an effect on the 'movement' (in quotes as I'm not sure I'd class it as such but since you did I will refer to it as such) are the name filters and the rules against posting any personal info about state employees and their families, no rude or insulting post about the same people and nothing that can be construed as illegal or threatening. If these strictures are that binding and oppressive then likely it is a movement whose momentum SHOULD die off. I sure don't want affiliation with any group who considers those things to be valid ploys.

If Ramon wants to just have this be a place to talk about caliber, then those of us who want to roll back restrictions may be forced to create another forum and incur all the switching costs. Why add more costs to a volunteer fight, especially when there are ways that can foster both what Ramon apparently originally wanted and support the efforts of all sorts of Californians to keep the momentum on rolling back bad gun laws.
Others have already made another forum but I hate to tell you, the impetus was not the grerater good of the Califonia gun owners movement, it was the loss of the For Sale forums. The word filters and rules had been in place for a fair bit before the Sale forums went away and things went on as normal. Capitalism not activism has been the driving force recently as sad as that is to say. I don't mean to denegate those on other boards but it does seem that things were tolerable until the For Sale boards went.


Does that make more sense Kestryll?
As I said earlier, it does give an insight into an aspect of the recent angst and I thank you. I am not just personally interested, I am trying to collect information on what people like and dislike and see if there is a middle ground that can be found between where we want Calguns to be, what the members want and what is personally comfortable for Ramon. I can't say anything will change but I'd like to look at the options at least.

-Gene

hoffmang
08-29-2006, 4:30 PM
I'm going to have to pull some quotes out here.

"...can still be done here as long as the rules of civility, courtesy and respect are followed not only towards your fellow members but towards others as well."

Let me come back to that.

As much as I understand the thought behind this I am left to wonder at the expectation that Ramon set aside his personal desires for the site he created for the betterment of a 'movement'. That's a pretty high level of expectation. And honestly I don't see how the loss of the For Sale forums affects that aspect at all.
The only strictures that should have an effect on the 'movement' (in quotes as I'm not sure I'd class it as such but since you did I will refer to it as such) are the name filters and the rules against posting any personal info about state employees and their families, no rude or insulting post about the same people and nothing that can be construed as illegal or threatening. If these strictures are that binding and oppressive then likely it is a movement whose momentum SHOULD die off. I sure don't want affiliation with any group who considers those things to be valid ploys.

1. Families - I concur.

2. State Employees I do not concur about. If in a thread about the happenings at a public hearing I mention a conversation about embarassing facts about said state employees - that should absolutely be the type of thing that can be said. That the threats of those folks has turned the moderation here to a point where verbally picking on folks who are not our political friends isn't acceptable - well, don't you see a problem there? Doesn't accidental discharge by a "Firearms Expert" comment on his expert standing?

As to the For Sale component, I wouldn't disagree with your analysis. I certainly didn't complain and understand the broader complications. What bothers me is that Ramon (and I guess you as well) have decided that roasting public employees by the public on this board isn't acceptable. I don't think as much of the unhappiness about Calguns is attributable to the loss of the forsale forums as you do. I certainly don't think 10% started this thread because of the loss of the forsale forum.

Tell me again why I can't say the name of a guy who goes on California television to talk about guns on a California gun board.

-Gene

C.G.
08-29-2006, 7:23 PM
As there are on every forum on the internet. Does that mean the proper solution is to close the forum?:rolleyes:

Do we ban everyone from using firearms because some misuse them?

Whatever.:rolleyes:

ivanimal
08-29-2006, 8:43 PM
No we really dont. Get a good lawyer to draft a proper user agreement and most if not all of the legal issues that one would face would be neutralized.

There will always be people that will try and bend things, but the issue is liability and not prevention.


I was talking about the gun laws in general. There are things you cannot sell or suggest here that you can in 49 other states. Again, we have it different here.

STAGE 2
08-30-2006, 5:35 AM
Whatever.:rolleyes:


Logic... its whats for breakfast.

STAGE 2
08-30-2006, 5:41 AM
I was talking about the gun laws in general. There are things you cannot sell or suggest here that you can in 49 other states. Again, we have it different here.

True, but again the issue here is the liability of the person(s) running the show. A proper user agreement and adequate moderation will take care of all of the nasty legalities that we would have to deal with in regards to our special situation.

On every forum there are people trying to do illegal things with regards to firearm sales and transfers. We have more rules than others, but the principles remain the same.

ivanimal
08-30-2006, 6:10 AM
True, but again the issue here is the liability of the person(s) running the show. A proper user agreement and adequate moderation will take care of all of the nasty legalities that we would have to deal with in regards to our special situation.

On every forum there are people trying to do illegal things with regards to firearm sales and transfers. We have more rules than others, but the principles remain the same.


Conceptually this sounds OK but when one door closes another always seems to open. Does having an agreement, hold harmless all aspects of the law? The internet is still a big gray area where that is concerned. I for one do not want to test it.

megavolt121
08-30-2006, 6:32 AM
True, but again the issue here is the liability of the person(s) running the show. A proper user agreement and adequate moderation will take care of all of the nasty legalities that we would have to deal with in regards to our special situation.

I believe that Ramon cannot be held liable for anything that happens on Calguns. Recently, a lawsuit was filed against Tucker Max by one Anthony Dimeo. Long story short, Dimeo was suing Max claiming something along the lines of Defamation of Character. Lawsuit was thrown out, thus setting precedence.

Background: Tucker Max runs a message board from his website, www.tuckermax.com. In one of his threads, the users of the board start bashing Dimeo. Dimeo whines and complains and probably asks Tucker to remove thread(s). Tucker refuses and Dimeo tries to sue him. Judge rules that Tucker isn't responsible for what is said by users of his board, or something along those lines.

Judge's Dissent (http://www.tuckermax.com/archives/SFX5C3.pdf)

C.G.
08-30-2006, 9:18 AM
True, but again the issue here is the liability of the person(s) running the show. A proper user agreement and adequate moderation will take care of all of the nasty legalities that we would have to deal with in regards to our special situation.

On every forum there are people trying to do illegal things with regards to firearm sales and transfers. We have more rules than others, but the principles remain the same.

And that person has decided to run the show the way he wants to, so why is everybody trying to tell him what to do. Stage 2 why don't you start your own gun board and then you can have it exactly the way you want it.

originally posted bySTAGE 2

Logic... its whats for breakfast.


You should have some.

hoffmang
08-30-2006, 10:24 AM
I've posted a primer on what the various liabilities are for posters and admins here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=38593

-Gene

hoffmang
08-30-2006, 2:14 PM
If one did not get a threat in writing, there is a relatively tractable way to handle it form both a price and ease of effort basis.

First, write a letter back to the person in question stating that you object to having your speech threatened and chilled by their phone call of date X. If you are a moderator, point out your federal safe harbors as described in my links. Make it as detailed as possible and send it with proof of delivery. If they don't respond, go about your merry life.

Alternatively - obtain an attorney who is fluent in the first amendment and the laws I outlined in that post. The first hour of consultation is generally free. Have them send a letter instead. You may be surprised by how cheaply they are willing to send the first nastygram ($300-$600.) If they get anything but a polite response, your liability insurance will be triggered if it was not already.

There are lots of folks who care deeply that online speech not be chilled by random threats from government actors. Both the ACLU and the EFF are surprisingly willing to help.

-Gene

grammaton76
08-30-2006, 2:19 PM
I think you guys are all totally forgetting the main thing: Ramon doesn't want the hassle and harrassment.

Maybe you guys actually want to spend a significant portion of your time and efforts standing up to the government.

He doesn't. He did, he has done so, he took his turn. He did well during his time at bat, and now he'd prefer not to deal with the stress anymore.

If you want to go do this, then by all means go ahead and do it. With your board - don't expect him to jump into it for your sake.

hoffmang
08-30-2006, 2:42 PM
That would be why I made my offer to buy this with an option in Ramon's favor to buy it back from me at a later date when the smoke has cleared.

-Gene

C.G.
08-30-2006, 4:26 PM
A. I did not say that Ramon has to do these things. Absolutely on the contrary; I agree with TenPercent's original post: If Ramon doesn't want to do these things, he should feel free to stop doing them.

Like he probably doesn't know that.

B. However, anyone who runs a forum that fills the function that Calguns has been filling for the last year, will have to do these things.


Statements A and B have very little to do with each other. Exactly therein lies Ramon's choice. What I've been pointing out several times: Having something that fills the function that Calguns has had in the last year is a good thing. It makes the world a better place. We need to be eternally grateful that we've had this. If Ramon's choice is to not continue doing this, then we (a) owe him big-time, and (b) need to find another place to do the thing that Calguns has done. Namely for "gun enthusiasts" (term quoted from DoJ reason for regulatory change) can discuss the fine points of California gun law and regulation in public.

Then again, he could leave it as it is right now, because there is a bunch of people that don"t mind it as it is.

STAGE 2
08-30-2006, 5:18 PM
And that person has decided to run the show the way he wants to, so why is everybody trying to tell him what to do. Stage 2 why don't you start your own gun board and then you can have it exactly the way you want it.

Because I have a career, and far too many obligations to start a project like this. Yes the owner can run things like he wants to. However as a member I reserve the right to give my input.

Furthermore, an owner has some degree of responsibility to the members of his forum. You don't yank something, leave people in the dark, and then offer no explanation for why or why not. At least not if you want to keep the traffic on your site up.

As far as my logic goes, I've got plenty, which is more than I can say for you. You still haven't given me a valid reason why the sale forums should be yanked, other than owners prerogative.

Like I said, if things stay on course the ship will continue to sink.

C.G.
08-30-2006, 5:25 PM
As far as my logic goes, I've got plenty, which is more than I can say for you.

My, my aren't you a bundle of joy.:rolleyes:

STAGE 2
08-30-2006, 6:36 PM
Don't look at me, you're the one that started in.

C.G.
08-30-2006, 7:48 PM
Don't look at me, you're the one that started in.

Really?:confused:

6172crew
08-30-2006, 7:59 PM
You guys need to get together and go bowling.:p

C.G.
08-30-2006, 8:05 PM
You guys need to get together and go bowling.:p

Actually, have breakfast.:D

artherd
08-30-2006, 9:27 PM
It's real easy to advocate staring into the eyes of the devil and laughing, untill you come face to face with those beady red little ********ers, and are late for work to boot.

I support Ramon in whatever actions he feels like taking on his board. If I don't personally agree with 'em, I reserve the right to start my own board. With blackjack. And hookers. On second thought, forget the blackjack!

hoffmang
08-30-2006, 10:41 PM
Ben,

I hear you, but as I've been saying - I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is with little risk to Ramon economically. I only want to see Ramon pecuniarily successful and this board advocationally successful.

And Ben, I know you speak from staring down those beady red eyes with your checkbook.

-Gene

grammaton76
08-30-2006, 11:23 PM
If I don't personally agree with 'em, I reserve the right to start my own board. With blackjack. And hookers. On second thought, forget the blackjack!

I'll start a gun board specializing in politics and religion. Our primary objective will be to hash out religious reasons why everyone should own guns. And do so for every religion and denomination on Earth.

Forget the hookers, they're outside our mission parameters!

hoffmang
08-30-2006, 11:27 PM
<non serious>Forget the hookers? How dare you replace the worlds first major enterprise with the worlds second... Lets stick with 1 and 3!</non serious>

And Keystrll - I'm still awaiting an answer why certain public figures' names are off limits...

-Gene

metalhead357
08-31-2006, 12:25 AM
And Keystrll - I'm still awaiting an answer why certain public figures' names are off limits...

-Gene

'Cause we had a bunch of yahoo nucking futty screwballs that actually started posting personal and private info about public figures...and thier families....and thier kids' school's name all under the guise of 'what? its public knowlege..."..........:cool:

Its always the friggin tards that ruin it for the rest; THAT is why the filters are in place............

I hope my comments didn't offend you, or any of the readers...but the truth about the filters was asked for..............

If the mods feel my comments are as such out of line- feel free to delete or edit them...just hoping the sentiment about ludicrious behavior ruining by a select few "ruined it" for the rest of us stays coming through...........

C.G.
08-31-2006, 12:29 AM
It's real easy to advocate staring into the eyes of the devil and laughing, untill you come face to face with those beady red little ********ers, and are late for work to boot.

I support Ramon in whatever actions he feels like taking on his board. If I don't personally agree with 'em, I reserve the right to start my own board. With blackjack. And hookers. On second thought, forget the blackjack!


And so do I, in spite of alll the backseat drivers. Do you have any training wheels to spare?:D

Kestryll
08-31-2006, 12:40 AM
And Keystrll - I'm still awaiting an answer why certain public figures' names are off limits...
-Gene

You were answered back in post 29 of this thread, to save paging back..
The only people to blame for the word filter situation is those members who thought it would be cool, witty or in some other way prove their 'net-manlyhood' to post information regarding the off the job lives of these people including personal contact info and info on their children. This was probably the most immature and destructive thing that could have been done in relation to this board. This kind of information can easily be seen as a thinly veiled threat whether it was meant as such or not.

Is there really any need for a reason beyond that the owner found this unacceptable and said no more?


Also to address these points..
State Employees I do not concur about. If in a thread about the happenings at a public hearing I mention a conversation about embarassing facts about said state employees - that should absolutely be the type of thing that can be said.
So other than a chuckle at someone else's expense what exactly did you lose by not being able to make fun of someone's embarassment?
That the threats of those folks has turned the moderation here to a point where verbally picking on folks who are not our political friends isn't acceptable - well, don't you see a problem there?
No, I don't see a problem. Perhaps it is because I don't see verbally picking on anyone as a valid form of discussion or debate. What purpose does this serve?
Doesn't accidental discharge by a "Firearms Expert" comment on his expert standing?

As to the For Sale component, I wouldn't disagree with your analysis. I certainly didn't complain and understand the broader complications. What bothers me is that Ramon (and I guess you as well) have decided that roasting public employees by the public on this board isn't acceptable.
Once again I have to ask, other than making the person doing it feel important or fulfilling some sense of self worth what exactly is accomplished by 'roasting public employees'? Do you weaken their argument by belittling them? Does it prove or disprove the legality of what they are saying by sharing embarassing anecdotes? Does using childish nicknames or insulting pseudonyms make your argument one tiny bit more accurate or valid? Does it do anything of value besides making our side look like the redneck, unintelligent, prone to snap yokels they are trying to portray us as?
I hate the current laws we have to deal with and I think there are serious issues with how they are enforced, we have much work to do to set things right. But carping on one or two individuals who are going to likely be either retired or in a completely different position before the California gun rights issue is resolved is not only pointless it's detrimerntal! More importantly it is a waste of the time, effort and resources we have.
I don't think as much of the unhappiness about Calguns is attributable to the loss of the forsale forums as you do. I certainly don't think 10% started this thread because of the loss of the forsale forum.

Tell me again why I can't say the name of a guy who goes on California television to talk about guns on a California gun board.
In the simpleset terms because the Owner of the board has said that is the way he wants it. Beyond that what more do we really need? Does it matter what his motivation is? Has he requested assistance with anything?
It really doesn't matter to me why Ramon want's calguns to return to it's roots, it is what he wants and since I respect him and what he has made here I will go along with his plan. It's really that simple.

hoffmang
08-31-2006, 3:13 PM
Kestryll,

Goading someone to keep them reacting emotionally instead of intellectually or strategically is quite often a very useful strategy.

The straw man argument that proposes that I'm asking to say things that are crass or cross the line and then attacking that is missing the essence of the issue.

Maybe I'm off base on my reading between the lines, but I think public figures have effectively chilled speech.

-Gene

metalhead357
08-31-2006, 9:06 PM
I thought it was only one.:confused:

You might be right~ the ol memory fades with time and I do believe the post(s) got yanked....fast; some say not fast enough...but they were yanked! and with good reason! But me-thinks there was another one or two in the mix too that had posted about a secondary figure from the Firearms division. Either way...not exactly the thing I'd want posted about me & mine all over the internet. The plurality of the posts/poster(s) I can honestly say I've forgotton...the content I'd pray no one remembers, took to keepsake, or re-posts...................

ivanimal
08-31-2006, 11:10 PM
Because I have a career, and far too many obligations to start a project like this. Yes the owner can run things like he wants to. However as a member I reserve the right to give my input.

Furthermore, an owner has some degree of responsibility to the members of his forum. You don't yank something, leave people in the dark, and then offer no explanation for why or why not. At least not if you want to keep the traffic on your site up.

As far as my logic goes, I've got plenty, which is more than I can say for you. You still haven't given me a valid reason why the sale forums should be yanked, other than owners prerogative.

Like I said, if things stay on course the ship will continue to sink.

I dont remember anyone owing you an explanation for anything.

You may be too important to bother yourself with our silly little forum anyhow. Perhap you could look into finding what you need, as far as items for sale, like the rest of us; elsewhere. If the for sale forum is a deal breaker move on.

As far as keeping traffic on the site, removing the for sale and oll threads has made it really nice around here. Good riddance to bad traffic. Now maybe some more loyal people will replace the ones that left.

Quit with the derogitory posts or they will be deleted.

This whole thread is ludicrous anyway.:mad:

C.G.
09-01-2006, 2:33 AM
I dont remember anyone owing you an explanation for anything.

You may be too important to bother yourself with our silly little forum anyhow. Perhap you could look into finding what you need, as far as items for sale, like the rest of us; elsewhere. If the for sale forum is a deal breaker move on.

As far as keeping traffic on the site, removing the for sale and oll threads has made it really nice around here. Good riddance to bad traffic. Now maybe some more loyal people will replace the ones that left.

Quit with the derogitory posts or they will be deleted.

This whole thread is ludicrous anyway.:mad:

I really meant to say just what you did (and I think I already did), but somehow this thread keeps going. I am sorry that this forum is not up to some people's expectations (not:D).

STAGE 2
09-01-2006, 10:26 AM
I dont remember anyone owing you an explanation for anything.

If you read my post carefully you'll notice that I stated he can run the forum how he chooses. However running a forum "your way" and running a forum successfully can be and often are two different things. He owes nothing to the members. Yet at the same time, the members are what really make this place run and as a result asking for a little courtesy isn't out of line.

You may be too important to bother yourself with our silly little forum anyhow. Perhap you could look into finding what you need, as far as items for sale, like the rest of us; elsewhere. If the for sale forum is a deal breaker move on.

You're starting to argue from emotion rather than facts and that doesn't get anyone anywhere. Making the choice between calguns as is and another forum with for sale forums is a false dichotomy. There are other options.

As far as keeping traffic on the site, removing the for sale and oll threads has made it really nice around here. Good riddance to bad traffic. Now maybe some more loyal people will replace the ones that left.

That may be true, however at its peak this forum was nowhere near a glocktalk, thefiringline, or thehighroad. The more members, the greater the knowedge base and the more useful a resource it is.

Quit with the derogitory posts or they will be deleted.

I haven't said a single derogatory thing, unless of course you consider a differing opinion derogatory.

This whole thread is ludicrous anyway.:mad:

Given the number of posts I'm inclined to think you are wrong.

rkt88edmo
09-01-2006, 10:32 AM
That may be true, however at its peak this forum was nowhere near a glocktalk, thefiringline, or thehighroad. The more members, the greater the knowedge base and the more useful a resource it is.

I disagree, we used to have a much better signal to noise ratio, and calguns will never be a datamine of the likes of TFL/THR/GT/ARFCOM, and it doesn't need to be.


Treelogger - If it hasn't been clear to you, it probably never will be. :rolleyes:

ivanimal
09-01-2006, 10:46 AM
These are derogitory.

Logic... its whats for breakfast.

[/As far as my logic goes, I've got plenty, which is more than I can say for you. You still haven't given me a valid reason why the sale forums should be yanked, other than owners prerogative.
QUOTE]

as for

[QUOTE]That may be true, however at its peak this forum was nowhere near a glocktalk, thefiringline, or thehighroad. The more members, the greater the knowedge base and the more useful a resource it is.



Those are really national forums the name here is Calguns. I would like to think we make a difference here. I am a member of a few of those forums and unless you like to read "why dont you move" every other post they are not for me. I do go there for information from time to time.

as for

If you read my post carefully you'll notice that I stated he can run the forum how he chooses. However running a forum "your way" and running a forum successfully can be and often are two different things. He owes nothing to the members. Yet at the same time, the members are what really make this place run and as a result asking for a little courtesy isn't out of line.



again he owes us nothing

You're starting to argue from emotion rather than facts and that doesn't get anyone anywhere. Making the choice between calguns as is and another forum with for sale forums is a false dichotomy. There are other options.


I appologize, and I mean it. I get snippy and I shouldnt.

I dont like to hear about how people feel entitled yet cannot contribute.

Kestryll
09-01-2006, 11:34 AM
This thread is revealing why Calguns has been changing over the last few months, what the change really means, and what direction it is changing in.
Yes, it does. It reveals that Calguns is changing because this is the direction Ramon, the Owner, wants it to go. The change means that when Calguns started the order of the day and the rules that were enforced were the courtesy, civility and respect were not only expected of the members but required. No foul language, no name calling, no snide insults and no childish behaviour. The direction Calguns is changing in is back to it's roots. So you're right, this thread is very revealing.


Unfortunately, this information is being disclosed in tiny little doses here and there. For example, if you look at kestryll's post from yesterday (the one from 08-31-2006, 01:40 AM ), you find a set of oblique hints as to why the forum is changing (example: because mentioning AM's and IC's name "doesn't serve a purpose"),
Mentioning names in a childish, insulting, belittling or denigrating fashion serves no purpose no matter who it is. It is even less beneficial when makes the cause you are championing look worse or is detrimental to your own credibility. If you can not make your point without resorting to cheap shots, exploiting gaffs and vulgarity maybe you need to get a better footing before engaging.
In regards to the board the simple point is it is rude, discourteous and uncalled for.
and what direction it is changing in (example: "to return to its roots"). Because this information is so vague (what does "roots" mean?) and so little of it is released, it is really hard to discern what Calguns intends to become in the future.
It has been said, repeatedly, that what Calguns intends to be in the future is a discussion board much as it was at the start. What you see here is much the same as what Calguns was. The 'roots' we are returning to are a simpler board with the original rules of civilty and respect enforced.
That leaves my trying to read the tea leaves.
Let me help.
For example, I wonder whether the merging of the OLL-forum with the regular forum,
The OLL frum was started to centralize info during the blizzard of facts, memos and theories the ensued. When there was a FAQ and most of the discussion had turned to either technical 'how do I..' or legal 'when will they?' these topics were better addressed and more easily found in the forums specializing in those topics. In short it beame redundant.
the ban on certain names,
Since some had shown an inability restrain themselves even when asked to do so it became necessary to put limiters in place. I don't know if there are legal aspects or not and frankly I don't care. The rudeness and crass atitudes displayed toward these people is more than enough reason for me.
And just go a bit further since everyone decrys the word filter, other than these two names and a couple common varients used there are under a half dozen words in the word filter, all of them profanity. It suprised me to see this given the rampant cencorship accusations.
the closing of the sale-forums is in reality an attempt at cooling or stopping OLL-related discussions, thinly veiled as a legal safety and labor-saving measure.
If closing the For Sale section was to cool OLL discussion we would have banned it in the Legal and Rifle sections as well.
I can't prove or disprove this suspicion.
This should help with the suspicion.

I have been trying to prod this discussion to get some clarity of what is actually going to happen to Calguns. As I have said before, Calguns has served a certain purpose (outlined in detail in one of my posts above), and that purpose deserves to be served. For myself, I need to decide whether Calguns will continue to serve that purpose or not. If it does not, then I can stop using Calguns, and need to start working with like-minded people (you know who you are) in creating another place for the discussions that I consider important.
Hopefully the info above will help. Calguns will still serve it's purpose as a place to discuss the Californian aspects of firearms, the sport of shooting, hunting and the legal issues regarding those topics. But we will do so in a respectful and courteous manner not only towards our felow members but towards all that we address here. If that is not good enough then all I can say is that your input will be missed.

Given the pace and direction of this thread, and my forecast of where the owner and admins want to predict the forum, I predict that my involvement with Calguns will drop to zero quite rapidly. It is no longer interesting or useful, from my vantage point. For many of its functions, the are excellent alternate venues (sigforum, THR, arfcom, rimfirecentral, and so on). For the most important aspect of Calguns (namely the California-specific legal and legislative landscape, and gun sales within California), alternate venues are beginning to spring up and trying to fill the void. However, the alternate venues are still highly fractured (which makes them near-useless), little-known (which is particularly problematic for a for-sale forum), and the legislative/legal discussion ones seem to be driven by extremist viewpoints or contaminated in other fashions.
We each have to decide where we want to be, where we want to go and if a place fits those desires for ourselves. Good luck in your decision, whatever it may be.

P.S. Edit: First, I can't spell. Hope I fixed all the errors. Second, I would love to replace the "mad" smiley at the end of the quote above with a "sad" smiley. I find what is happening with Calguns right now to be extremely sad and depressing;
Change is never easy and it will always make some feel either angry or sad but it is a part of life.
I fear that Calguns is being destroyed by its users (in many cases through malice) and by its owner/admins (with the best of intentions), but I don't know how to improve the situation, other than to discuss it openly.
I think some peoples views on what Calguns should be are being destroyed and I do agree that there is a small fation that feels that 'if Calguns is not as I want it then it's time to bring it down'. Fortunately this is a small group.
The best way to improve the situation is to work within the new/old structure to ensure that the issues that require our focus stay in the forefront but do so in the requested polite manner.
Discussion is not what I want to see quashed, it's the manner that the discussion takes place in that I am concerned with. Calguns started and for a couple of years had the feel of talking with friends on the porch even when discussing serious issues. We could differ and debate without the angst, rudeness and personal sniping. That is the tone of the debate that I would like to see back again. Recently we are less a group of friends then a cachophany of voices all shouting to be heard over our neighbor. And that is not discussion.


I'm sure this doesn't address every question but it should address some of them.


*edited repeatedly 'cause I can't type worth a darn!

6172crew
09-01-2006, 11:34 AM
I appologize, and I mean it. I get snippy and I shouldnt.

I dont like to hear about how people feel entitled yet cannot contribute.

I seem to have the same problem.:cool:



we used to have a much better signal to noise ratio


This much is true;)

bwiese
09-01-2006, 10:58 PM
My comments about removal of the OLL sub-forum (or Calif-legal Self-Loading Rifle sub-forum or what-have-you)...

After a period of time, the OLL concepts and broad underlying legal/regulatory matters became reasonably well-known, at least in the broad strokes. Most but not all of the tech questions focused on ARs with a relatively small subset dealing w/AKs.

By mid-May, the OLL forum traffic was a hodgepodge. Clarity was needed, and a separate categorization for OLL matters was unnecessary. If it was an AR build question, that logically shoulda gone into the Rifleman's forum; if it was a question about legal/regulatory matters surrounding OLLs, it could readily be posted in the Legal/Political forum. The initial need for organization and cooperation in acquiring/importing OLLs and dealing with broken vendor promises, etc. disappeared since by that time 35,000+ people managed to find OLLs.

If an OLL subforum - a de facto AR forum - were to be maintained, that level of specificity would logically require forums for lotsa firearm subspecies - resulting in dilution of traffic.

Creating too many forms has a risk of thread (and activity) dilution because one wants to see a concentration of information in one reasonbly broad category. If we had subforums down to the firing pin level, there'd be 1-2 threads in each one of these "micro-forums" every other month and browsing the forums would be a horrid exercise in tree navigation. One goal of reading a forum is to pick up related side information, and a forum too over-focused prevents that.

The OLL thread had developed into an AR parts discussion, along with generic AW law discussion. Both those can fit more than adequately in the existing Rifle forum and Legal forum. The OLL subform was rationally a temporary thing to group a specific chunk of traffic related to acquisition and newly-discussed legal matters. When issues related to those settled somewhat it's entirely rational that the OLL subforum decay and future threads be categorized appropriately.

Rascal
09-02-2006, 11:18 AM
*edited repeatedly 'cause I can't type worth a darn!

Hmmmm trying to circumvent the word filters?
Just kidding! :D

I don't see why so many people are getting all riled up about the changes that have happened. Yes, I will miss the for sale forum, but hey, THIS AIN'T MY BOARD.
Ramon can do whatever he wants. I still like coming here and hanging out.
Thank you all, and have a nice day. :)

Can'thavenuthingood
09-02-2006, 4:58 PM
When I first came to Calguns I was putting together a business plan for an indoor range. I remembered it from surfing the net. I didn't register as I was researching and absorbing knowledge from everyone available. I lurked here, The Firing Line and The High Road. Seemed as though one or the other were alternately going through growing pains.
Its only been since this site was redone, redesigned or started over that I registered and began to ask questions and participating.

What wasn't of interest I scrolled through or skipped that thread. Like the Off List Lowers discovery, I wasn't interested so I paid no attention to it. Not until it became political did I get involved with the issues at hand. Not until it was over thursday night (assembly session) did I understand the specific differences in OLL receivers (Thank you Hoffmang). Point being that I existed here on Calguns in other areas of interest, yet when help was needed by fellow gunners, I was available to lend a hand in the attack or defense.

Regardless of our party affiliation we all have a basic belief in our own self reliance and capabilities. We have varied interests and some of us may have personalitiy differences precluding our sitting down together at a chicken dinner. We do have an affection for our guns and an immense dislike for anyone attempting to remove them from our grasp. Whether its with the velvet gloves of incrementalism or the thuggery of criminals we will band together and assist one another in the retention of our tools, toys, collections, hobbies and object d'art's.

Calguns.net gives us a place within this state of California to gather and be amongst folks like ourselves. And I haven't seen a display of thought revealing a selfish focus on things. Like if they come after the OLL's, it doesn't affect me because I like slow bolt's anyway, let the gov take them.

Calguns.net should stay and be well lit with discussion and differences. It ought to remain as a mustering point for defeating or supporting legislation. We proved that on 31 August 06 when the politicians got tired of us calling them. I think several changed their votes both during the bill voting and after the session closed. I heard quite a few change their votes as I listened to the audio feed.

The NRA took notice of us as an entity. The CRPA is trying to recover from its FAUX PAS it pulled in Sacramento on the OLL hearing. We as individuals would not have known about the indiscretions of CRPA were it not for Calguns.net and happily continue contributing to their vacation fund. Now they are scrambling trying to stop the tide of dwindling membership, their credibility is lost.

Were it not for Mike Haas signing on here and jumping in to do battle with the likes of me and a few other NRA disillusioned and disappointed types, we most likely would be complaining about microstamping beginning on 1 Jan 07.

How many folks here have an OLL due to this forums available information and ability to discuss and ask questions?

How many folks here have made decisions based on info, data or answers found at Calguns.net?

How many have made new friends, discovered new or different places and activities because of Calguns.net?

How many questions have been answered?

Calguns.net is an asset to each of us.

Vick

C.G.
09-02-2006, 5:34 PM
Can'thavenuthingood ,
well said.:)

6172crew
09-02-2006, 8:02 PM
Can'thavenuthingood ,
well said.:)

+1, well said Vick, I would say the OLL thing is just as important to me a Bolt action and muzzle loading, I dont care about ethier one but will fight to make sure you can keep yours.

[hijackmodeon] Me- I think military type rifles are more than just a pistol grip, they have history. The M16 has come along way and it is the most universal firearm in the world. Anyone can put one together and it can be used for just about any job a service member is tasked to carry out.[highjackmodeoff]

Kestryll
09-02-2006, 8:14 PM
[hijackmodeon] Me- I think military type rifles are more than just a pistol grip, they have history. The M16 has come along way and it is the most universal firearm in the world. Anyone can put one together and it can be used for just about any job a service member is tasked to carry out.[highjackmodeoff]

I think there are some AK afficianadoes who might like to differ on those points 6172. I do believe the ak-47 is the most prolific rifle in history. I may be wrong but I don't think so.. ;) :p

SemiAutoSam
09-02-2006, 8:26 PM
WOW I have to differ with the both of you I have the Feeling that the most prolific rifle is the one they call the right arm of the free world.

THE FN FAL.

Keeping in mind Ive owned a few M16's whilst I was a SOT I still have a absolute fondness for the FN FAL the G Series are a rifle to drool over just so ya dont get them wet.

GTKrockeTT
10-26-2006, 3:57 PM
not that any redemption was needed, but for those that were bashing Wes, i have a few slices of crow pie.

6172crew
10-26-2006, 4:41 PM
not that any redemption was needed, but for those that were bashing Wes, i have a few slices of crow pie.

Where is that Fat lady?

j/k, looks as though things just might work out. I owe Kestryll and Ramon a beer for giving a ********.

GTKrockeTT
10-26-2006, 6:32 PM
Where is that Fat lady?

j/k, looks as though things just might work out. I owe Kestryll and Ramon a beer for giving a ********.

yeah, i'm just poking fun. hopefully the transition goes smooth, then we can sit back, surf CGN with one hand, beer in the other, and watch the raiders lose again on sunday. much thanks to kes, ramon, and all the mods for putting up with our *****.