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View Full Version : GUNSCAL users: Change Your Passwords - Security Issue!


bwiese
08-25-2006, 2:17 PM
A few little birds have called me w/info that there's been suspicious behavior on Gunscal.com website...

We're not clear yet, but for now it appears the founder, 'Gunscal', is an attorney for a firm that has relationship with DOJ - apparently he did 60+ min of testimony about what is/isn't inebriation, etc.

It ain't 100% certain that this a shill site, but with the other strange IP addresses showing up there - and Gunscal owner's quick shutdown of viewing of IP logging to forum mods - something is more than likely Rotten In Denmark.

They tell me frequent visitors include DOJ, NCTC (Nat'l Counterrorism somthing-or-other). Orange County DA has also visited.

You should assume PM info on Gunscal has been compromised.

What This Means: DOJ's looking to entrap. Keep your conduct here (and everywhere!) legal, don't answer probing questions about edges of the law, or agree to anything that smells bad, etc.


YOU SHOULD ALSO ASSUME THAT YOUR CALGUNS PASSWORD HAS BEEN COMPROMISED, AS PROBABLY MANY FOLKS USED THEIR SAME USERNAME/PASSWORD FOR GUNSCAL.

IF YOU ARE USING THE SAME PASSWORD FOR YOUR EMAIL ACCOUNTS ELSEHWERE, ALSO ASSSUME THEY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED.

IT IS MY BELIEF YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR CALGUNS PASSWORD IMMEDIATELY.

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 2:19 PM
:eek: Jesus. Password changed. I had a sinking suspicion...

VeryCoolCat
08-25-2006, 2:23 PM
who wants to take one for the team for an entrapment charge and then suing the DOJ for all they are worth?

bg
08-25-2006, 2:24 PM
I've been with Calguns a long time. Never even thought
of going to that place over there that didn't have enough
sense to come up with a better name for the site than
a reversed rip off of this site..I figure if it ain't broke,
don't fix it. I'll stick here as long as Calguns will have me.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 2:27 PM
Gunscal.com likely DOJ-affiliated shill site... Calguns passwords at risk



YOU SHOULD ALSO ASSUME THAT YOUR CALGUNS PASSWORD HAS BEEN COMPROMISED, AS PROBABLY MANY FOLKS USED THEIR SAME USER ID and PASSWORD FOR GUNSCAL.

IF YOU USE THIS USER ID/PASSWORD (OR SOMETHNG SIMILAR) FOR OTHER BOARDS AS WELL, CHANGE IT THERE TOO.

IF YOU ARE USING THE SAME PASSWORD FOR YOUR EMAIL ACCOUNTS ELSEHWERE, ALSO ASSSUME THEY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED.

IT IS MY BELIEF YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR CALGUNS PASSWORD IMMEDIATELY.



Background: a few little birds have called me w/info that there's been suspicious behavior on Gunscal.com website...

We're not clear yet, but for now it appears the founder, 'Gunscal', is an attorney for a firm that has relationship with DOJ - apparently he did 60+ min of testimony about what is/isn't inebriation, etc.

It ain't 100% certain that this a shill site, but with the other strange IP addresses showing up there - and Gunscal owner's quick shutdown of viewing of IP logging to forum mods - something is more than likely Rotten In Denmark.

They tell me frequent visitors include DOJ, NCTC (Nat'l Counterrorism somthing-or-other). Orange County DA has also visited.

You should assume PM info on Gunscal has been compromised.

What This Means: DOJ's looking to entrap. Keep your conduct here (and everywhere, as you should always be doing) legal, don't answer probing questions about edges of the law, or agree to anything that smells bad, etc.
Take the High Road and all will be well.

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 2:32 PM
You SHOULD change your passwords immediately, yes.

However, I doubt that the DOJ would be able to use a stolen password from there, to get in over here, without a warrant.

One big question though: can Ramon make the last IPs our accounts logged in from accessible to us?

It'd be pretty easy for folks to audit their own accounts if you can see, say, the last 10 days of your own login history.

On a side note, I thought the site was a little odd when right away, I saw a Point Blank interceptor vest for sale - and it disappeared IMMEDIATELY once I posted a link to the confiscations of point blank armor. The Calguns reaction would've been to lock the thread.

If Bill's theory is right, then that was an entrapment snare that was pulled for being too obvious.

Gringo Bandito
08-25-2006, 2:36 PM
Thank Bill!

maschronic
08-25-2006, 2:39 PM
thanks bweise for the update. my info has been changed. damn freakin DOJ!!!!!

phish
08-25-2006, 2:48 PM
http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html

^ use a 5 dice passphrase :)

bwiese
08-25-2006, 2:49 PM
I think it's lights-out at Gunscal now.

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 2:52 PM
I think it's lights-out at Gunscal now.

Funny thing is, the lights never got that bright over there to begin with. The sale board moved a little, but as a whole the forum there never really took off. I barely touched the place, and was still in the top for post count.

I will say though, that I recommend gaim with the encryption plugin rather than PM's anyway, for private communication. PM's are just plain unweildly...

Santa Cruz Armory
08-25-2006, 2:53 PM
I think it's lights-out at Gunscal now.


Why? it's still up....

leverage
08-25-2006, 2:56 PM
The whois information is proxied through a company marketing "private domain registration". Someone has taken a little extra effort at hiding who they are.

MonsterMan
08-25-2006, 2:56 PM
I just looked over there, there is a thread from admin about users not posting any info about doj/leo officials. It says that posting info about doj/leo's is obstructing ongoing investigations and the posts will be deleted. Specifically it mentions the doj going to gunshows. I guess they don't want people to give heads up to the investigations that are in action. Kinda wierd to have this post over there, ya think? It kinda confirms what bill is saying.

MM

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 2:58 PM
The whois information is proxied through a company marketing "private domain registration". Someone has taken a little extra effort at hiding who they are.

Eh, if I were starting up a Calguns like site, and was aware of the level of harrassment Ramon's been subjected to, I think I'd spend the extra effort to keep hidden. May not stop DOJ, but it would probably stop harrassment by anti gun groups if they ever decided to jump into the mix.

Side note, I should also say that the DOJ and NCTC have been viewing articles on Gunwiki about building AK's, as well. As far as I'm concerned, they're welcome to do some reading, nothing illegal on that site.

Diabolus
08-25-2006, 2:58 PM
How to you guys figure this stuff out?

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 3:00 PM
How to you guys figure this stuff out?

It's pretty simple to look up IP addresses, when your moderators have the power to see IP addresses on posts/views/whatnot. I understand that's how this thing got started.

anotherone
08-25-2006, 3:01 PM
Well you gotta consider what it is we've been doing here... there's a thread even on this board that says "Let's see your California Legal .223" and it shows hundreds of photos of pinned rifles. There are also occaisionally people talking about tactical shoots and training here as well. I don't know about the rest of you but I could see how an outside government agency could become suspicious that there is militia type activity going on. Of course that would make them just as paranoid as some of us wouldn't it :D?

Kestryll
08-25-2006, 3:02 PM
How to you guys figure this stuff out?

Our Web-Fu is strong young Cricket. ;) :p

icormba
08-25-2006, 3:03 PM
so? what could they possibly do with your password besides posting in your name?

What's in your profile? Who cares? They can get all this info without your password anyway.

Like everyone said in the past... just don't post stupid stuff. Don't do anything illegal.

If someone posts with your user name and password, they still need to prove you posted it. My forums log IP's of users... the IP's I use are restricted and only I can post from them.

oh, and a few of the websites I run are visited by the Feds all the time... I can see them ;) But I don't have anything to hide... I get suspicious emails all the time asking me if I sell M1 Garands, yeah right! like I'd sell my precious precious M1's!

p.s. Bill, that is a good warning you posted... but we should be wary of ALL sites and forums we join.

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 3:08 PM
Well, I certainly hope this isn't true. I am a moderator over there and just logged in and I can see IP addresses. However, I wasn't looking for them yesterday.

Of course, as Icombra said...I always conduct all my affairs...posts and PMs in accordance with the law...thus I don't fear the DOJ.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 3:08 PM
I have posted 2 similar warnings on Gunscal - in the Announcements and the Legal forums - and both were deleted within 12 seconds of posting.

BTW, the website was hosted somewhere in Europe.

Sez it all for me...

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 3:08 PM
so? what could they possibly do with your password besides posting in your name?

They can read your PM's. Personally, I noticed that I got logged out right after Bill posted that. Since I did use the same pass on both (I don't talk about anything illegal), it's entirely possible they logged in and downloaded all my PM's from here when the news was broken.

Just reinforces that no one should trust the security of PM's. If you want encryption, use gaim's encryption plugin and use AIM/whatnot. Otherwise, consider all conversations public.

Kestryll
08-25-2006, 3:15 PM
Right now this is suspicious and being looked into from what I understand.
However it is just a suspicion so let's not make any claims of fact until we know and have proof.
It don't look good though....

vega
08-25-2006, 3:15 PM
And I repeat my question which I posted over there (not answered though), who is gunscal here at Calguns?

Santa Cruz Armory
08-25-2006, 3:15 PM
As a Mod on GunsCal, I sent the Admin an email asking for the return of the IP addresses and the ability to see the IPs. I sent this email earier this morning and I have gotten no response...:confused:

I hope that what Bill describes is not the case, but it is a possibility. I signed on as a Mod to keep things legally and morally on the level. I hope the admin did not misrepresent him/themselves.

I'll post what I find out either way.

Gringo Bandito
08-25-2006, 3:16 PM
Tenpercent just posted a message on gunscal to have the admin post the message that Bill posted and a minute later his message was deleted.

I am grabbing my tinfoil hat and lead underwear.

maschronic
08-25-2006, 3:18 PM
bweise,

i noticed that you posted the same info on gunscal. now, your posting is gone. i can't find it. did you delete it??

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 3:18 PM
I notice under forum leaders that only gunscal is listed. Did all you mods lose your power? :confused:

I love this stuff :rolleyes: .

Gringo Bandito
08-25-2006, 3:19 PM
And I repeat my question which I posted over there (not answered though), who is gunscal here at Calguns?

Do you mean who has signed up for both?

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 3:19 PM
bweise,

i noticed that you posted the same info on gunscal. now, your posting is gone. i can't find it. did you delete it??
I saw it too, it was deleted within 12 seconds by gunscal.

Kestryll
08-25-2006, 3:20 PM
Gunscal has never turned on Forum Leaders to show Mods.
It's a setting in the Admin panel, we have it on here.

Doesn't necessarily mean bad things just a switch not thrown.

maschronic
08-25-2006, 3:20 PM
I saw it too, it was deleted within 12 seconds by gunscal.


yup. hrmm....i just curious if bweise deleted or it got deleted from gunacal?

Gringo Bandito
08-25-2006, 3:21 PM
the post by tenpercent is back up.

anotherone
08-25-2006, 3:22 PM
I'm no longer able to log into gunscal at all. I'm gonna have to dig up my tin foil hat from my closet now! Talk about some strange stuff... hopefully I don't get any surprise visitors this weekend :p !

MaxQ
08-25-2006, 3:23 PM
I have posted 2 similar warnings on Gunscal - in the Announcements and the Legal forums - and both were deleted within 12 seconds of posting.

I assume no PMs as to why you would post such a thing, eh? I'd be outraged if anyone posted something like that about my board, and I'd certainly make it abundantly clear that the rumors were untrue. If, of course, they were untrue...

Yet another example of why you should use different passwords everywhere.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 3:24 PM
yup. hrmm....i just curious if bweise deleted or it got deleted from gunacal?

Both similar posts (Announcements and Political forums) were deleted by gunscal (or staff) within 12 sec of my posting.

I also hear that a certain Deputy AG may have worked in the OCDA's office, and someone told me there was OCDA IP addresses ;)

Stick a fork in it, it's done. Y'all got "co-opted" with a "false flag" recruitment.

Santa Cruz Armory
08-25-2006, 3:24 PM
Well, I certainly hope this isn't true. I am a moderator over there and just logged in and I can see IP addresses. However, I wasn't looking for them yesterday.
Of course, as Icombra said...I always conduct all my affairs...posts and PMs in accordance with the law...thus I don't fear the DOJ.


You CAN see addresses? As a Mod I can not.

xenophobe
08-25-2006, 3:25 PM
No need to change my password there. It's not the same one that I use here.

I'm always cautious like that, and yes, I was skeptical of the place when I signed up.

chickenfried
08-25-2006, 3:25 PM
I changed my passwords. But.........

Bwiese suggested gunscal should be a sales only forum. What kind of proof is there regarding it being a schill site? We've been told that DOJ trolls the calguns site, wouldn't you find DOJ ip addresses on calguns also? I'm not surprised that a forum owner would delete posts suggesting he was a DOJ schill.

Bwiese could be entirely right. Just trying to have a healthy level of skepticism and get more info before I hop on the burn gunscal down bandwagon. Hardly even post there.

anotherone
08-25-2006, 3:27 PM
Both similar posts (Announcements and Political forums) were deleted by gunscal (or staff) within 12 sec of my posting.

I also hear that a certain Deputy AG may have worked in the OCDA's office, and someone told me there was OCDA IP addresses ;)

Stick a fork in it, it's done. Y'all got "co-opted" with a "false flag" recruitment.

Bill, what do you think the reason they started the board was? Was it to attempt to entrap people, investigate us, or what else could they be planning? Well now that the game's up I guess we'll never know.

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 3:27 PM
Bill, what do you think the reason they started the board was? Was it to attempt to entrap people, investigate us, or what else could they be planning? Well now that the game's up I guess we'll never know.
All of the above.

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 3:29 PM
Bill, what do you think the reason they started the board was? Was it to attempt to entrap people, investigate us, or what else could they be planning? Well now that the game's up I guess we'll never know.

I imagine if the worst case scenario is true, entrapment. Like I said, one of the early posts over there was "surplus" Point Blank Interceptor armor. I think it may have even been the one that was offered for sale here. The post promptly vanished once I posted the link - Calguns would've locked the thread, but the admin over there flat-out deleted it, no trace.

leverage
08-25-2006, 3:36 PM
All of the above.

The admin does say flat out he will tattle-tale. Also the "safe" language strikes me as odd.

"However, this is not a forum where it is safe to advocate the breaking the laws regulating the transfer or ownership of firearms and accessories nor is it safe for the harassment of anyone, including government officials. In addition, it is not a safe place to libel or threaten anyone, including government officials. Anyone found engaging in any prohibited behavior or conduct will be banned form the board with no warning and all available information will be immediately forwarded to law enforcement and I will cooperate in any subsequent investigation."

http://www.gunscal.com/archive/index.php?t-31.html

bwiese
08-25-2006, 3:39 PM
We may never get the 100% lowdown.

But remember: "Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt."

But there was a lot of very 'friendly' IP traffic noted (well, it depends who your friends are :))

bwiese
08-25-2006, 3:41 PM
The admin does say flat out he will tattle-tale. Also the "safe" language strikes me as odd.

"However, this is not a forum where it is safe to advocate the breaking the laws regulating the transfer or ownership of firearms and accessories nor is it safe for the harassment of anyone, including government officials. In addition, it is not a safe place to libel or threaten anyone, including government officials. Anyone found engaging in any prohibited behavior or conduct will be banned form the board with no warning and all available information will be immediately forwarded to law enforcement and I will cooperate in any subsequent investigation."

That was boilerplate put in maybe by regular folks given the Calguns situation to keep a lid on things. (Remember when things got a bit hot around here 3+ months ago?)

Talkin2u2
08-25-2006, 3:43 PM
I imagine if the worst case scenario is true, entrapment. Like I said, one of the early posts over there was "surplus" Point Blank Interceptor armor. I think it may have even been the one that was offered for sale here. The post promptly vanished once I posted the link - Calguns would've locked the thread, but the admin over there flat-out deleted it, no trace.

It isn't entrapment if someone gets arrogant and volunteers information that can be used against themseves. I think the threshold for something to be "entrapment" is pretty high.

Isn't it interesting that now, CALGUNS.NET is shown to be having a better record of FREE SPEECH than the other site? Kinda makes a person think. ;) So much for the complainers.

I am now wondering why that other site was really set up anyway. Who owns and runs it? How long has it been around? Some of the regulars here are moderators over there. Don't you guys know who you are working for?

Sorry if these questions seem harsh, but (with few exceptions) nobody really knows anyone else in a venue such as this. Do they?

RS
Sac, CA

Anthonysmanifesto
08-25-2006, 3:45 PM
maybe Im nieve, but what could a professional LEO possible want to learn about our little discussion group.

beyond the curiousity and gossip value, I mean, I don't get it.

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 3:47 PM
maybe Im nieve, but what could a professional LEO possible want to learn about our little discussion group.

beyond the curiousity and gossip value, I mean, I don't get it.
Well considering we've been the ones to pick apart all their memos. We are the go-to site for the OLL movement. Theres a countless number of things they could be looking for.

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 3:47 PM
OK, I logged into GunsCal again and just talked to another mod on the phone. I wasn't aware of the display that allowed one to see all the logged IPs concurrently. However, I just had a look and they have in fact been disabled. I can see still see IPs by clicking on individual posts (but only for that poster).

I wasn't aware of all the drama unfolding behind the scenes until this thread, but now I've been filled in to a bit of the 'back story'.

My question would be is the frequency of undesireable IPs logging into GunsCal any different or somehow cause for more concern that those which I would guess log into CalGuns?

I do find the disabling of features on GunsCal (without any explanation) to be somewhat disconcerting.

At this point I'm not exactly sure what to think. I'll let the evidence play out and see.

I would like to hear from the Admin at GunsCal.

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 3:49 PM
I would like to hear from the Admin at GunsCal.
You won't. :rolleyes:

Gringo Bandito
08-25-2006, 3:49 PM
( wearing tin foil hat and lead underwear ) Is there any way to trace this back to who made mention of this gunscal site in the first place? I do not want to start anything but it may be nice to track the origin.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 3:52 PM
maybe Im nieve, but what could a professional LEO possible want to learn about our little discussion group.

beyond the curiousity and gossip value, I mean, I don't get it.

A non-gunnie's view might be that we're borderline-illegal and possibly easy pickins'. They're on here every day.

Perhaps they think there are big secrets going on in the PMs.

You also said "professional LEO", about which I will refrain from further comment ;)

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 3:52 PM
maybe Im nieve, but what could a professional LEO possible want to learn about our little discussion group.

beyond the curiousity and gossip value, I mean, I don't get it.

How about a big career-making bust of a "ring of gun runners organized online, for purposes of assembling prohibited assault weapons in California"? That's how they could spin it if they were able to pull something out of this... only takes two people who met on Calguns or Gunscal, to claim the whole site was some kind of arms ring.

Since there's this illusion of privacy in PM's, the "sales available" mentality over there would have easily drawn in folks who're inclined to try and move something illicitly - be it rifles, or standard cap mags, etc.

kenc9
08-25-2006, 4:04 PM
I am a Mod. there and called his cell and PMed him and he has not logged on or returned my messages.

There may be a very good answer we don't know yet. All of us are trying to find out if there is any truth to the rumor and we will pass it on if there is.

I did personally see DOJ log on as a guest in there all day long yesterday.
Mostly they went straight to B.W.s police and DA memo like they had a link to it.

The truth will surface...I hope it isn't true.

-ken


As a Mod on GunsCal, I sent the Admin an email asking for the return of the IP addresses and the ability to see the IPs. I sent this email earier this morning and I have gotten no response...:confused:

I hope that what Bill describes is not the case, but it is a possibility. I signed on as a Mod to keep things legally and morally on the level. I hope the admin did not misrepresent him/themselves.

I'll post what I find out either way.

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 4:06 PM
Bill I don't think Ken authorised you to tell the entire board what he said to you in confidence

I'M sure calguns also have visits from the doj and other LEO's logging on from computers with LE IP addresses but their not visible to you are they.

I did a little research and located the owner of the board. and have spoken to him via phone. you are blowing this way out of proportion and are way out of line in spreading a warning that you have NO PROOF OF

I DELETED THOSE THREADS. your big mouth is going to get you in a lot of hot water one day.

Nefarious
08-25-2006, 4:07 PM
Well at most, people will just need to change their passwords. So long as you were not doing something you should NOT have been... then theres really nothing to get excited about. I can understand all the comotion, but my tinfoil hat and lead underwear is still in the closet :D

Kestryll
08-25-2006, 4:07 PM
Isn't it interesting that now, CALGUNS.NET is shown to be having a better record of FREE SPEECH than the other site? Kinda makes a person think. ;) So much for the complainers.
Let's not go down that road, there is no reason to make this an 'us and them' thing. Most of them is us and many of us is them. Somehow I can see ohsmily spinning in his chair over that sentence! ;)
Divided we are weak, remember that.

I am now wondering why that other site was really set up anyway. Who owns and runs it? How long has it been around? Some of the regulars here are moderators over there. Don't you guys know who you are working for? Sorry if these questions seem harsh, but (with few exceptions) nobody really knows anyone else in a venue such as this. Do they?
It's true we don't know but over time we can tell a bit about character by the postings of people. We read and learn.
RS
Sac, CA

Let's keep this friendly and informational.

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 4:15 PM
Bill has ulterior motives to see gunscal fail

He feels that having 2 gun boards will split the so called movement and splinter our direction.

Or at least thats what he said to me after I was so kind to invite him to the new board.

I really feel bill has flown off the handle this time.

How many of the members here have seen the IP addresses that are not visable to you all HERE ? the only reason anyone knew about this is because KEN and I told a few people.

chickenfried
08-25-2006, 4:18 PM
Actually he had a post on gunscal where he made those feelings known. And people say guys don't like soap operas.


Bill has ulterior motives to see gunscal fail

He feels that having 2 gun cboards will split the so called movement and splinter our direction.

Or at least thats what he said to me after I was so kind to invite him to the new board.

I really feel bill has flown off the handle this time.

gose
08-25-2006, 4:19 PM
what if calguns.net is run by DOJ and B.Wiese really IS ******** after all?

bwiese
08-25-2006, 4:20 PM
Bill I don't think Ken authorised you to tell the entire board what he said to you in confidence

I asked him if it smelld as bad to him as it did to me. He said yes. I asked if he had any issues about posting a general warning, and he agreed w/me.

Other people warned me yesterday the likelihood it was a shill site. No one knows anything about 'Gunscal' and a bunch of mods just jumped over without checking into it.


I'M sure calguns also have visits from the doj and other LEO's logging on from computers with LE IP addresses but their not visible to you are they.


I don't have to be told that, I know that. But we at least have some control here: they don't own the site.


I did a little research and located the owner of the board. and have spoken to him via phone. you are blowing this way out of proportion and are way out of line in spreading a warning that you have NO PROOF OF

I never said I had proof. I said it smells real bad - esp when a lawyer who has had biz with DOJ, of whom we dunno much about, appears out of thin air
to create a site with more 'freedom' and then deletes posts about things relevant to these occurrences.

I DELETED THOSE THREADS. your big mouth is going to get you in a lot of hot water one day.

Don't threaten me - "big mouth" is apparently anyone reasonably literate to you, Sam.

Go worry about the money supply or the counterfeit dollars the Treasury is printing, and take a good dose of colloidal silver.

6172crew
08-25-2006, 4:20 PM
Bill I don't think Ken authorised you to tell the entire board what he said to you in confidence

I'M sure calguns also have visits from the doj and other LEO's logging on from computers with LE IP addresses but their not visible to you are they.

I did a little research and located the owner of the board. and have spoken to him via phone. you are blowing this way out of proportion and are way out of line in spreading a warning that you have NO PROOF OF

I DELETED THOSE THREADS. your big mouth is going to get you in a lot of hot water one day.

Sam, if I thought or heard that the DOJ was trying to gain access to a members info or messages Id pass it along as fast as I could, then ask for forgivness later. Sorry but Bills fat mouth might just save our rearends one day. Id liek to know how he came across said info and Id like to verify before getting pissed at anyone.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 4:23 PM
No, Sam, I didn't wanna see Gunscal fail. Now that I have a reasonable suspicion of what it is, that's different. At the time, I just thought it's not the wisest thing. I did nothing to disturb it, I just said I wasn't gonna be hanging out there, it wasn't for me.

And Sam, you walked right into it - someone gave you a bit of praise and mod rights and you felt good about it, without even checking things out.

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 4:24 PM
As the plot thickens... :eek: .

Brilliant: :D
Go worry about the money supply or the counterfeit dollars the Treasury is printing, and take a good dose of colloidal silver.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 4:24 PM
what if calguns.net is run by DOJ and B.Wiese really IS ******** after all?

You saw my badge at the Chabot shoot - "I'M NOT I****" ;)

Kestryll
08-25-2006, 4:42 PM
This was posted by Bill as an informational warning.
It's turning into a personal attack session.
That is going to stop.
If you have additional information or questions feel free to post them but stay on topic and DO NOT attack your fellow board members.

The only reason I'm not locking this is because there is more info needed to prove or disprove the concern and I'd rather have only one thread to watch.

This is the one warning, be polite.

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 4:44 PM
what if calguns.net is run by DOJ and B.Wiese really IS ******** after all?

Heh, I just stated the same premise over on Gunscal... as long as that thought doesn't leave you scrambling for the delete button, then you clearly don't need to worry about anything anyway.

6172crew
08-25-2006, 4:52 PM
OK, some info is coming out and Id still change your passwords but it looks as though we are good to go until all the facts are out.

I dont have any hard info as of yet but somethings are making since.

Still resizing my hat and cleaning out my drawers though.

bwiese
08-25-2006, 4:53 PM
OK, I'm done and gonna shut up...

... I have no 100% proof. But there are enough things that make me feel it's hinky.

Other people were reporting this to me, I really had little care what went on over there. I checked in on occasion to see if things had gone hog-wild.

When my relatively innocous thread about unity, reasons for Calguns activities, etc. was pulled - when DOJ had been reading it for 20 min and then the NCTC (Nat'l Terrorism Counterintelligence Center) was reading it, and then it was pulled, that smelled bad. I was notified of this. Other traffic, and the nature of the website itself, its hidden admin, etc. all made me further wary.

Even if it somehow happily turns out to be A-Number-1 legit, and Gunscal is a standup dude, etc. etc. we haven't been hurt by changing our passwords.

I understand why some people wanted GunsCal.net, didn't think those reasons were that great to break up unity (esp since there's a Yahoo CA guns for sale list) and cohesiveness. I spoke my mind a few days ago, turned down a couple of polite invites - not just because of this reason, but I just don't wanna check yet another PM or CA Legal forum, etc.

I will say this appears to be the perfect way to harvest passwords and IMs: a public non-secret Trojan horse, esp as Calgunners used same IDs and likely passwords.

Fini.

kantstudien
08-25-2006, 5:02 PM
Wow, this is pretty exciting. It is almost like living in communist China, but without having to die from a burst of PDW fire in the end (at least not yet).

Joke or not you knew that one wasn't going to last right?

Python2
08-25-2006, 5:04 PM
Lordy, lordy and we are supposed to be armed and dangerous (to BG). I wonder if this would have been happening face to face among members.:D
But, very interesting thread.:eek: Thought it just got out of hand a bit.:rolleyes:

maxicon
08-25-2006, 5:13 PM
So, back to the subject at hand:

What would the DOJ gain by starting a board like gunscal?

If I had the same password here and there, what would they be able to do with it that they can't do now, except for post bogus messages claiming to be from me (which would be pretty obvious)?

I guess I don't see what it would get them, when calguns is much higher volume, and lots of people come here and talk about stuff they're doing that could get them in trouble. I haven't seen gunscal instigating illegal behavior.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?

max

grammaton76
08-25-2006, 5:15 PM
If I had the same password here and there, what would they be able to do with it that they can't do now, except for post bogus messages claiming to be from me (which would be pretty obvious)?

It's been mentioned several times now: if they can log in as you, they can read your PM's. If people are doing anything underhanded in their PM's, that can help them figure out who to start investigating.

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 5:17 PM
So I'm still curious about the question I raised earlier...

How are the quantity and quality of DOJ and Law Enforcement IPs on GunsCal different from CalGuns? Surely the DOJ and others visit here. So what specifically about the IP visits to GunsCal was cause for alarm?

Semi-Auto Sam deleted this post's clone over on GunsCal, not the admin. Yet people are still citing the deletion of this post's clone as evidence of a DOJ conspiracy.

I am just keeping an open mind, not pretending to be an expert on web security and the intricacies of internet subterfuge.

This thread did take on the characteristics of a witch hunt for a spell there.

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 5:20 PM
It's been mentioned several times now: if they can log in as you, they can read your PM's. If people are doing anything underhanded in their PM's, that can help them figure out who to start investigating.

If people follow the law (like we all are hopefully doing) then this shouldn't be an issue. Of course, even for us law abiding people, we'd like to assume that private messages, are y'know private. But of course, one shouldn't assume anything one uses the net to convey is private.

chickenfried
08-25-2006, 5:25 PM
Bwiese has already explained why it was worded this way. But for sake of discussion here's the title of the deleted(now undeleted)thread. Is it really that surprising that it was deleted?
WARNING: This Is A DOJ Shill Website: Passwords May be Compromised

Semi-Auto Sam deleted this post's clone over on GunsCal, not the admin. Yet people are still citing the deletion of this post's clone as evidence of a DOJ conspiracy.

icormba
08-25-2006, 5:31 PM
Man, some of these replies actually make me think Bill may have something here!

Some of you guys are mods over there, right? Do any of you even know the admin? If not... that would make me suspicious right there, wouldn't it you?

...and that the admin won't answer direct questions relating to the forum just adds to the mystery!

I like the idea there is a sales forum over there, so I'll still hang there a while... then again, I don't have anything illegal to sell or do I want anything illegal.

sac7000
08-25-2006, 5:34 PM
Bill, what do you think the reason they started the board was? Was it to attempt to entrap people, investigate us, or what else could they be planning? Well now that the game's up I guess we'll never know.

With your IP address they can contact your internet provider and determine your real name and physical address. Consider yourself (and me) now part of a "list" of questionable gun owners...

Fjold
08-25-2006, 5:45 PM
SemiAutoSam; as the biggest proponent of conspiracy theorist on this site why would you object to Bill posting about a possible conspiracy on Gunscal?

Hmmmm, could it be that you are in on this conspiracy and are ................?

50 Freak
08-25-2006, 5:51 PM
GENTLEMEN

TAKE IT FROM ME.....THE DOJ DOESN'T LOG INTO THESE FORUMS AS WITH A DOJ I.P. ADDRESS.

THE DOJ USES A COUPLE OF "CLEAN" COMPUTERS.

I used to work for the DOJ and have seen computers set up seperately from the other DOJ computers. My supervisor at the time explained these computers were "clean" and had no traces linked to the DOJ. Even if someone tried to trace these computers, they piggybacked to other states or out of the country.

The DOJ isn't stupid. They moniter these websites so make sure you aren't advocating whacking public officials or building illegal firearms and you shouldn't be in any trouble.

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 5:59 PM
SemiAutoSam as the biggest proponent of conspiracy theories on this site why would you object to Bill posting about a possible conspiracy on Gunscal?

Hmmmm, could it be that you are in on this conspiracy and are ................?


Well I would almost say thank you but its still defamation of character


Beyond that I suppose I objected to what bill said as I am one of the one's in control of that board and I saw the same IP addresses that Ken saw and didn't see them pointing to anything but the DOJ's computers. and saw a IP address posted in the mods forum that was the Orange County's DA's office.

I never saw any proof that the owner of gunscal.com has any association with the DOJ.

I will post the IP addresses if the admin and or mods of this board have no opposition to my doing this to show you all what we saw.

I have never been at the "Helm" of this board so I always had my suspicions that the DOJ made their visits but never had proof like I do now from helping run things at gunscal.com

If anyone has any other questions I will answer to the best of my ability.

icormba
08-25-2006, 5:59 PM
With your IP addresses they can contact your internet provider and determine your real name and physical address. Consider yourself (and me) now part of a "list" of questionable gun owners...

Heck, even you or I could track some IP addresses to their actual user! Which are those, Static or Dynamic? I forget? I think it's Static? I used to have one (or the other) and could trace myself to my billing address! Kinda funny.

My personal info is super easy to track right from my post here, but we aren't supposed to discuss such things here :)


p.s. GOOGLE is amazing.

sac7000
08-25-2006, 6:03 PM
Hmm...let's think a minute here.

Maybe there's nothing to be really concerned about.

Maybe it's all phony to begin with. Done to create suspicion and distrust. To effectively disrupt communications without doing hardly anything at all. No memos, no letters, no phone calls. Just create a another forum then start making it look like it's being compromised.

Am I totally off base here? This is beginning to look and smell like a movie plot if you ask me.

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 6:07 PM
Hmm...let's think a minute here.

Maybe there's nothing to be really concerned about.

Maybe it's all phony to begin with. Done to create suspicion and distrust. To effectively disrupt communications without doing hardly anything at all. No memos, no letters, no phone calls. Just create a another forum then start making it look like it's being compromised.

Am I totally off base here? This is beginning to look and smell like a movie plot if you ask me.


This is starting to sound a lot like a twilight zone episode I've seen on more than one occasion.

sac7000
08-25-2006, 6:07 PM
Heck, even you or I could track some IP addresses to their actual user! Which are those, Static or Dynamic? I forget? I think it's Static? I used to have one (or the other) and could trace myself to my billing address! Kinda funny.

My personal info is super easy to track right from my post here, but we aren't supposed to discuss such things here :)


p.s. GOOGLE is amazing.

Static IP's are permanent, Dynamic change, most of us have dynamic unless you a are serious gamer type.

By the way my current IP address is: 68.127.50.58

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 6:40 PM
Here are some IP addresses we logged.



138.163.0.38

167.10.243.253

167.10.240.1

167.10.240.60

I saw the bottom 3 the top was not seen by me but posted by other mods.

6172crew
08-25-2006, 6:50 PM
Here are some IP addresses we logged.



138.163.0.38

167.10.243.253

167.10.240.1

167.10.240.60

I saw the bottom 3 the top was not seen by me but posted by other mods.
How can you guy tell where an IP addy comes from? I googled it and it says Im an idiot and to go back and ask someone on Calguns:D

Edited to add I found out now.
http://www.arin.net/whois/

xenophobe
08-25-2006, 6:50 PM
I don't know about any of this BS but someone logged into my account and read personal PMs. One that I had never read because I was ignoring the issue was marked read when I got home. My password here and that other site are different... so a MOD must have checked my account here.

I'm not very fond of that. :|

6172crew
08-25-2006, 6:52 PM
I don't know about any of this bull***** but someone logged into my account and read personal PMs. One that I had never read because I was ignoring the issue was marked read when I got home. My password here and that other site are different... so a MOD must have checked my account here.

I'm not very fond of that. :|

WTF:mad: I know I cant see any passwords and Im a mod. Are you completely sure?

Thats it!, the tinfoil is coming out.

xenophobe
08-25-2006, 6:57 PM
WTF:mad: I know I cant see any passwords and Im a mod. Are you completely sure?

Thats it!, the tinfoil is coming out.

Absolutely sure that I had an unread message I was specifically avoiding to read. It was marked as read when I logged here at home. Nobody has access to this computer. My work computer uses IE, but I use Firefox, and do not save my passwords. It's possible I left Calguns open and a coworker looked at it, but I doubt it. So, dunno what to say. A moderator wouldn't have access, but an administrator would.

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 6:58 PM
Wouldn't it be possible for government to access IPs logged into a website without actually running the site? Seems to me the government would have the ability to find out who logs into this site. I wouldn't be surprised if they have the means to find out. Anyway, I would just assume that if I am posting on any gun website the government could access my info.

And the DOJ already has info on many people who bought lowers. For example, the Milpitas FFL had his bound book zeroxed.

But none of this worries me as I follow the law. Ideally it would be nice if the government didn't have access to your info, but that's not the world we live in. In practical terms every gun you buy is already 'registered' in the sense that a 4473 exists. Just takes them a little extra effort to get the info.

So all we can really do is follow the law and enjoy our collecting/shooting.

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 6:59 PM
Here is one IP lookup tool

http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/iplocation.asp?ipaddress=207.214.9.134&submit=submit


Here is another IP look up tool

http://www.arin.net/index.shtml

WokMaster1
08-25-2006, 7:00 PM
I don't know about any of this bull***** but someone logged into my account and read personal PMs. One that I had never read because I was ignoring the issue was marked read when I got home. My password here and that other site are different... so a MOD must have checked my account here.

I'm not very fond of that. :|


OOOh! that's bad! How the ***k did they get your password? This is getting really trippy!!!:mad:

50 Freak
08-25-2006, 7:03 PM
Here are some IP addresses we logged.



138.163.0.38

167.10.243.253

167.10.240.1

167.10.240.60

I saw the bottom 3 the top was not seen by me but posted by other mods.


Search results for: 138.163.0.38

OrgName: NCTC (NATIONAL COUNTER TERRORISM CENTER)
OrgID: NCTC-4
Address: 130 WEST AVENUE SUITE D
City: PENSACOLA
StateProv: FL
PostalCode: 32508-5111
Country: US

NetRange: 138.163.0.0 - 138.163.255.255
CIDR: 138.163.0.0/16
NetName: CISCO-BLOCK9
NetHandle: NET-138-163-0-0-1
Parent: NET-138-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NCC.NCTS.NAVY.MIL
NameServer: GATE.NCTS.NAVY.MIL
NameServer: NS1.NOSC.MIL
Comment:
RegDate: 1990-05-07
Updated: 2004-09-20

RTechHandle: LS529-ARIN
RTechName: Slade, Lawana
RTechPhone: +1-850-452-7562
RTechEmail: LSLADE@nnic.navy.mil

OrgTechHandle: MCA110-ARIN
OrgTechName: Catlin, Mark
OrgTechPhone: +1-619-817-3778
OrgTechEmail: mark.catlin@navy.mil





Search results for: 167.10.243.253


OrgName: California Department of Justice
OrgID: CDJ-1
Address: 4949 Broadway
City: Sacramento
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95820
Country: US

NetRange: 167.10.0.0 - 167.10.255.255
CIDR: 167.10.0.0/16
NetName: HDCDOJNET
NetHandle: NET-167-10-0-0-1
Parent: NET-167-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS1.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
NameServer: NS2.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
Comment:
RegDate: 1993-04-12
Updated: 2001-07-06

RTechHandle: TB148-ARIN
RTechName: Buckley, Terry
RTechPhone: +1-916-227-3122
RTechEmail: terry.buckley@doj.ca.gov




Search results for: 167.10.240.1


OrgName: California Department of Justice
OrgID: CDJ-1
Address: 4949 Broadway
City: Sacramento
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95820
Country: US

NetRange: 167.10.0.0 - 167.10.255.255
CIDR: 167.10.0.0/16
NetName: HDCDOJNET
NetHandle: NET-167-10-0-0-1
Parent: NET-167-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS1.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
NameServer: NS2.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
Comment:
RegDate: 1993-04-12
Updated: 2001-07-06

RTechHandle: TB148-ARIN
RTechName: Buckley, Terry
RTechPhone: +1-916-227-3122
RTechEmail: terry.buckley@doj.ca.gov



Search results for: 167.10.240.60


OrgName: California Department of Justice
OrgID: CDJ-1
Address: 4949 Broadway
City: Sacramento
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95820
Country: US

NetRange: 167.10.0.0 - 167.10.255.255
CIDR: 167.10.0.0/16
NetName: HDCDOJNET
NetHandle: NET-167-10-0-0-1
Parent: NET-167-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS1.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
NameServer: NS2.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
Comment:
RegDate: 1993-04-12
Updated: 2001-07-06

RTechHandle: TB148-ARIN
RTechName: Buckley, Terry
RTechPhone: +1-916-227-3122
RTechEmail: terry.buckley@doj.ca.gov

WokMaster1
08-25-2006, 7:03 PM
Here is one IP lookup tool

http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/iplocation.asp?ipaddress=207.214.9.134&submit=submit


Here is another IP look up tool

http://www.arin.net/index.shtml


Sam, what did you find out about the IP addresses you were showing us????

Edit. Never mind! Thanks Freak!

WokMaster1
08-25-2006, 7:09 PM
Search results for: 167.10.243.253


OrgName: California Department of Justice
OrgID: CDJ-1
Address: 4949 Broadway
City: Sacramento
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95820
Country: US

NetRange: 167.10.0.0 - 167.10.255.255
CIDR: 167.10.0.0/16
NetName: HDCDOJNET
NetHandle: NET-167-10-0-0-1
Parent: NET-167-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS1.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
NameServer: NS2.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
Comment:
RegDate: 1993-04-12
Updated: 2001-07-06

RTechHandle: TB148-ARIN
RTechName: Buckley, Terry
RTechPhone: +1-916-227-3122
RTechEmail: terry.buckley@doj.ca.gov




Search results for: 167.10.240.1


OrgName: California Department of Justice
OrgID: CDJ-1
Address: 4949 Broadway
City: Sacramento
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95820
Country: US

NetRange: 167.10.0.0 - 167.10.255.255
CIDR: 167.10.0.0/16
NetName: HDCDOJNET
NetHandle: NET-167-10-0-0-1
Parent: NET-167-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS1.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
NameServer: NS2.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
Comment:
RegDate: 1993-04-12
Updated: 2001-07-06

RTechHandle: TB148-ARIN
RTechName: Buckley, Terry
RTechPhone: +1-916-227-3122
RTechEmail: terry.buckley@doj.ca.gov



Search results for: 167.10.240.60


OrgName: California Department of Justice
OrgID: CDJ-1
Address: 4949 Broadway
City: Sacramento
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95820
Country: US

NetRange: 167.10.0.0 - 167.10.255.255
CIDR: 167.10.0.0/16
NetName: HDCDOJNET
NetHandle: NET-167-10-0-0-1
Parent: NET-167-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS1.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
NameServer: NS2.HDCDOJNET.STATE.CA.US
Comment:
RegDate: 1993-04-12
Updated: 2001-07-06

RTechHandle: TB148-ARIN
RTechName: Buckley, Terry
RTechPhone: +1-916-227-3122
RTechEmail: terry.buckley@doj.ca.gov


What are the chances that it's just DOJ employees who share the same interests as us? It would be far fetch to say that ALL DOJ staff are against us, right?

50 Freak
08-25-2006, 7:11 PM
It could be? who knows....

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 7:16 PM
And I think it's a safe assumption that those same IPs (or of the same ilk) visit this site, so I'm not seeing how that makes GunsCal different.

But I'm going to use one of those IP sniffers to check myself out:p

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 7:26 PM
Actually one DOJ employee (in a phone conversation many months back) told me they check CalGuns to see if anyone mentions them...and if they see their name they jokingly mention it to each other...and she was saying this with a bit of humor.

And no names, but she's a Field Rep who's always shot straight when I had a question, not give me bogus info, says she doesn't know when she doesn't, and mailed me the first infamous Feb memo which I posted here before it was posted on the DOJ website.

And her letter almost got us Armalite AR-1o receivers heh:)

sac7000
08-25-2006, 7:32 PM
What are the chances that it's just DOJ employees who share the same interests as us? It would be far fetch to say that ALL DOJ staff are against us, right?

That's very true. I know several state workers who are able to surf the net from their cubicles. I'm sure the same goes for fed workers too. Some of the state workers have told me that some of them are not able to receive jpeg or gif images but no problem with text messages. I guess that is done to help slow virus attacks.

rkt88edmo
08-25-2006, 7:39 PM
So, um, er, I guess I haven't been keeping up :p What is gunscal? how did you all hear about it? and why would you be running around there instead of here :p


PS NEVER USE THE SAME PASSWORD ANYWHERE - EVER

Icormba asked what the damage could be, well, people who use a universal password may be giving up access to their personal email linked to their personal banking/savings/checking, credit cards, ebay, paypal, amazon/you name it accounts. Even if it isn't a sham board, if the software gets compromised by an outsider, they may run amok with your personal info.

Kiddies, always keep your dustcovers closed and wear your rubbers on the internet. ;)

MisterDudeManGuy
08-25-2006, 7:53 PM
Don't know about DOJ, but PD use anonymous IP servers offshore to alias their real IP and get protection, through international law, for the real IP. These IP proxies are available to everyone and are no mystery.

If DOJ-traceable IP's were used, it was because they wanted them to be used, or thought it to be no big deal. Or maybe they wanted to see us fight like a bunch of retards. :D

SemiAutoSam
08-25-2006, 8:04 PM
Here is some info I found on where gunscal.com originates from

Whois database information for gunscal.com

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

Domain Name: GUNSCAL.COM
Registrar: SCHLUND+PARTNER AG
Whois Server: whois.schlund.info
Referral URL: http://registrar.schlund.info
Name Server: NS47.1AND1.COM
Name Server: NS48.1AND1.COM
Status: ACTIVE
Updated Date: 16-aug-2006
Creation Date: 16-aug-2006
Expiration Date: 16-aug-2007


>>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:41:50 EDT <<<

NOTICE: The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the
registrar's sponsorship of the domain name registration in the registry is
currently set to expire. This date does not necessarily reflect the expiration
date of the domain name registrant's agreement with the sponsoring
registrar. Users may consult the sponsoring registrar's Whois database to
view the registrar's reported date of expiration for this registration.

TERMS OF USE: You are not authorized to access or query our Whois
database through the use of electronic processes that are high-volume and
automated except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or
modify existing registrations; the Data in VeriSign Global Registry
Services' ("VeriSign") Whois database is provided by VeriSign for
information purposes only, and to assist persons in obtaining information
about or related to a domain name registration record. VeriSign does not
guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a Whois query, you agree to abide
by the following terms of use: You agree that you may use this Data only
for lawful purposes and that under no circumstances will you use this Data
to: (1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail, telephone,
or facsimile; or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to VeriSign (or its computer systems). The compilation,
repackaging, dissemination or other use of this Data is expressly
prohibited without the prior written consent of VeriSign. You agree not to
use electronic processes that are automated and high-volume to access or
query the Whois database except as reasonably necessary to register
domain names or modify existing registrations. VeriSign reserves the right
to restrict your access to the Whois database in its sole discretion to ensure
operational stability. VeriSign may restrict or terminate your access to the
Whois database for failure to abide by these terms of use. VeriSign
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .EDU domains and
Registrars.

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 8:12 PM
If DOJ-traceable IP's were used, it was because they wanted them to be used, or thought it to be no big deal. Or maybe they wanted to see us fight like a bunch of retards. :D


Amen.
And for the record. First thread (Bweise's) soft deleted by one of the mods as a temp measure. It has been restored but closed.

TENPERCENTS THREAD was re-opend by me in the intrest of full disclore; I dont wanna be no censorerererer:mad:

IP issues, as noted will be addressed when Admin returns. And once again for the record--- IP ADDRESSES ARE AVAILABLE TO THE MODS with the exception of Guests WHICH WILL BE RESOLVED WHEN ADMIN CHECKS IN.

Its a new board Guys:o He's been playing with controls, formats...EVERYTHING; The mods had to ask for some controls back to moderate threads WHICH HE DID. I'm sure the Guest IP issue will be resolved.

I asked there...and ask here.

1. Do you really think a Gun board would NOT be visited by the FBI, the local police, and Homeland Security? And why wouldnt our own DOJ do the same? Gimmie a break...its the day and age we live in!

2. WHY are you worried? THIS PLACE,,,,, right here at CALguns has been visited too? I betcha it has. SO WHAT? I said it on the other site and I'll say it here..... If you're legal then c'mon over. If you're not- keep away. We want a legit board. As per one of the announcements of our Admin...anyone breaking the law will be banned and turned over to the authorities..........

Metalhead

icormba
08-25-2006, 8:13 PM
Actually one DOJ employee (in a phone conversation many months back) told me they check CalGuns to see if anyone mentions them...and if they see their name they jokingly mention it to each other...and she was saying this with a bit of humor.

Yeah! I totally believe this! hey, they are people too... and yeah we can be pretty paranoid at times where it's really kinda funny. :)

Back in the late 80's a old cop friend of mine said they used to listen to NWA in the PD locker room! haha!



Icormba asked what the damage could be, well, people who use a universal password may be giving up access to their personal email linked to their personal banking/savings/checking, credit cards, ebay, paypal, amazon/you name it accounts. Even if it isn't a sham board, if the software gets compromised by an outsider, they may run amok with your personal info.

Kiddies, always keep your dustcovers closed and wear your rubbers on the internet. ;)

You are totally right! I should have clarified... I was only really referring to forums. Using the same passwords for banking, consumer sites, and anything personal (you don't want known) or financial is just moronic :confused: :rolleyes:

It wouldn't bother me much if someone used my forum password(s). I don't have anything in profile that can't be found in my public sig. The only thing that would suck, if it happened, is if someone used my PW and got me banned from a forum.

WokMaster1
08-25-2006, 8:13 PM
SCHLUND+PARTNER AG

I googled that name & came up with this

http://www1.schlund.de/index.php?

Kirsten Haynberg won't say anything. But I wasn't listening anyway. My eyes were very distracted.:D

Centurion_D
08-25-2006, 8:17 PM
OK..if I haven't been to or registered at Gunscal should I still be worried?

MisterDudeManGuy
08-25-2006, 8:18 PM
In the interest of fair reporting, I have had posts deleted on this site. I didn't mention it before because I thought "no big deal", but there it is. It happens everywhere a person has a hand on the delete button.

RedBluff
08-25-2006, 8:30 PM
Thanks Bill

6172crew
08-25-2006, 8:32 PM
The DOJ visiting the sites arent what spooked me. Mostly because I didnt understand what was going on but this is how I saw it before talking tyo anyone.

1. The DOJ was snooping
2. The FEDs showed up minutes later
3. Nobody could get ahold of Admin
4. Nobody knows Admin
5. Admins a lawyer
6. Possible DOJ site
7. Crapped pants because I couldnt find the "change password" button fast enough
8. Everone was back biting
9. I still havent cleaned my pants
10. Changed all passwords
:cool:

M. Sage
08-25-2006, 8:37 PM
WTF:mad: I know I cant see any passwords and Im a mod. Are you completely sure?

Thats it!, the tinfoil is coming out.

Anyone with access to the right control panel on the web server (someone like the website's owner) can check login info. I forget which it is, but a former admin who modded my forums for me on my gaming site screwed me over that way, tore my forums apart, etc. Regular mods can't see that stuff.

My question is this: Why exactly is gunscal pretty much a carbon copy of calguns' forum? Some of the subforums are even exactly the same. It's almost like they want people to THINK they're here.....?

kenc9
08-25-2006, 8:39 PM
Is back and making an announcement shortly.

-ken

chickenfried
08-25-2006, 8:41 PM
4.If no one knows the admin, how do we know he's a lawyer? Do any of us really know Ramon and his backround?

6.Why is it a possible DOJ site? Bwiese started this whole thing and even says he has no proof to show us. After stating openly that gunscal should not be a discussion board possibly drawing members away from calguns, but rather a sales-only forum.

The DOJ visiting the sites arent what spooked me. Mostly because I didnt understand what was going on but this is how I saw it before talking tyo anyone.

1. The DOJ was snooping
2. The FEDs showed up minutes later
3. Nobody could get ahold of Admin
4. Nobody knows Admin
5. Admins a lawyer
6. Possible DOJ site
7. Crapped pants because I couldnt find the "change password" button fast enough
8. Everone was back biting
9. I still havent cleaned my pants
10. Changed all passwords
:cool:

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 8:44 PM
6.Bwiese started this whole thing and even he says he has no proof to show us.

A freakin'men!

As noted Our admin is back, reviewing the threads and will be making an announcemnet. Several of the threads have been re-opened.

Satex
08-25-2006, 8:46 PM
"ParanoYa, self destroYa" !
If you aren't doing anything illegal - you have nothing to be worried about - right?
And as we heard from someone that attended the open comment meeting, DOJ officials acknowledge that they loiter around this site - so nothing new there.

stevie
08-25-2006, 8:46 PM
Well all the moderators on the other board do not seem to be the moderators anymore. Admin seems to blame them for the problems.

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 8:47 PM
MIGHT I add there is NO FREAKIN' IP ADDRESSES available here on Calguns?

Why not open it up and see who's coming 'round?

Hmmmmmmmm?

:rolleyes:

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 8:56 PM
Well all the moderators on the other board do not seem to be the moderators anymore. Admin seems to blame them for the problems.

Well..... seems you're right; there's an announcement saying as much; wants to blame SOMEBODY..............

All I know is I was SOUND ASLEEP while 98% of this went on and woke to about post #100 here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I guess I'm getting blamed too:cool:

kenc9
08-25-2006, 8:58 PM
and he says.....

Dear Membership:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears the mods I selected have royally destroyed this board.
I actually have a very busy professional life, and cannot spend every waking minute monitoring the board.

What can happen when I'm not paying attention? Apparently a board can crumble under the weight of some colossally erroneous decisions.

I have yet to survey the extent of damage but I am sure I can find that the investment in software, servers, and time has been flushed down the toilet. Oh goody...

6172crew
08-25-2006, 8:59 PM
Well all the moderators on the other board do not seem to be the moderators anymore. Admin seems to blame them for the problems.

He didnt stick around long after firing the lot of em'.:confused:

Id like to know why a German site for the forum and if he ever does any work for the DOJ as a contract attorney.

Sorry but Id know eevn if it isnt my beeswax.

Thats it for me, I will wait to see what comes of it.

stevie
08-25-2006, 9:02 PM
Next will probably hear that he/she is shutting down the forum. No other explaination other than its the mods fault. Never finding out who is really running the forum.

pacificcoast
08-25-2006, 9:03 PM
why must an otherwise very simple answer be asked repeatedly?

WHO owns/operates/runs gunscal.com?? and what is his username here in calguns.net?

:confused:

stevie
08-25-2006, 9:05 PM
Hey this sounds like a new "SHTF" poll for Tonynorcal..... :D

TonyNorCal
08-25-2006, 9:06 PM
Hey this sounds like a new "SHTF" poll for Tonynorcal..... :D
LOL:p :p :p

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 9:13 PM
Hey this sounds like a new "SHTF" poll for Tonynorcal..... :D

LOL! Or a chapter for my book...HOW to Fudged over in a week.....

I hope he looks things over and reconsiders his reaction(s).

I can once again say for the record that I tried to shut everything down, was asked by a mod to re-open Ten's thread......... all my closed down threads with an admonition were re-opend and the admonition removed.:confused:

Can a Mod change a Mods post? I shoulda tried before all this:o

Joe
08-25-2006, 9:23 PM
let us know how it goes... if you arent arrested or something

6172crew
08-25-2006, 9:24 PM
Some good news, he doesnt think Admin can look at passwords.

caduckgunner
08-25-2006, 9:34 PM
Yeah... my girlfriend has been following this and wants me to flake on him.

I ain't never been to jail before.. well I guess it's because i'm not a criminal.

If the sale is legal, what do you have to worry about:confused: Meet him in the morning and sell it.

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 9:36 PM
Some good news, he doesnt think Admin can look at passwords.

I wonder if Ramon here can cough up an answer for us??????????

joe_sun
08-25-2006, 9:38 PM
If the sale is legal, what do you have to worry about:confused: Meet him in the morning and sell it.

I don't but I've recevied numerous emails from members of this board as well as my girlfriend nagging me so I've decided to not sell the rifle anymore.

wuhungsix
08-25-2006, 9:38 PM
Yeah... my girlfriend has been following this and wants me to flake on him.

I ain't never been to jail before.. well I guess it's because i'm not a criminal.

Haha, if you flake on him I will buy it from you.

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 9:45 PM
Haha, if you flake on him I will buy it from you.


LOL! I ALREADY beat ya' to that!

6172crew
08-25-2006, 9:51 PM
I wonder if Ramon here can cough up an answer for us??????????

Im sure Ramon has better things to do but maybe Kestryll can answer that, Im not sure why Admins would even want to know a guys password in the first place.

BRB my tinfoil is coming loose again, any recomendations for the chaffing my chinstrap is causing?:confused:

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 9:58 PM
You're right, Ramon does have better things to do- but somebody with a copy of the V-bullitin software has got to be able to tell us all and put everyone's mind to rest;)

Gringo Bandito
08-25-2006, 10:08 PM
I have been doing some research on the http://www.vbulletin.com/ website and as far as I can tell, they cannot view passwords but they can view the user IP.

check it out.

chickenfried
08-25-2006, 10:18 PM
Just in case you guys missed it, so far the only user that's reported hinky things going on with his calguns account, is Xenophobe. But he didn't have the same password on both forums :rolleyes:

I don't know guys, unless some more facts come out. Looks like this thread was a big circle jerk. It's about time for the bunny with a pancake on his head pic, or for someone to call someone else a nazi.

markymark
08-25-2006, 10:19 PM
I am pissed regardless of whether these allegations are indeed true or not. I did not (or have I ever) participate in any illegal activity in my posts or in my PMs on calguns or gunscal. I do not particularly enjoy being monitored in a "free" country for the possible crimes that I might commit.

treelogger
08-25-2006, 10:20 PM
Wouldn't it be possible for government to access IPs logged into a website without actually running the site?

The government is very very big, highly disorganized, and consists of zillions of little fractions, most of which dislike each other. There used to be an old joke around: for the CIA, the real enemy is the FBI; the KGB are actually their trusted colleagues.

There are most likely some federal government organisations that can determine who accessed which website from which IP address at what time, with very very little effort. These agencies tend to have names like "Nxy", where "x" is typically a consonant and "y" is a vowel; they tend to be located in small towns in Maryland or Virginia. If one were to attempt to conduct any form of communications (including web browsing) in serious privacy, with a high degree of certainty of not being observed by this type of organisation, I would stay miles away from the public internet, including VoIP, unless I knew that my traffic was well repudiatably anonymized or encrypted.

On the other hand, these types of organisations are not about to share their information with small-time unimportant law enforcement entities, like some random agent in the CA DoJ or local law enforcement. Without a judge's wiretap warrant, it is extremely unlikely that those types of agencies can obtain any information about the traffic between normal households and sites such as Calguns.

M. Sage
08-25-2006, 10:20 PM
Some good news, he doesnt think Admin can look at passwords.

If he looks at the (I can't remember what it's called) database, he can see loads of info, like passwords. However, you have to have access greater than an admin gets. It's in one of the web site admin tools, not in the forum admin stuff (which I have no clue how to use...).

Trust me, I got screwed over by a guy who had access to it.

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 10:22 PM
I have been doing some research on the http://www.vbulletin.com/ website and as far as I can tell, they cannot view passwords but they can view the user IP.

check it out.

I can tell ya' about the IP thing. Yes, we could see ips of both logged-in members and NON logged in guests; it was available up until late yesturday or so thereabouts. A couple of the guests had IPs that APPEARED ((as in no confirmation that I know of except what the other Mods had said)) to be goobermental:) I personally found one that g'mmie a wierd goobermint STORY..........

ABSOLUTELY got me on how Bill got wind of this...and I still dont think it is/was a big deal (see post several back). And I have NOOOOOOOOO freakin idea how he got from point A all the way to shrill site.

I have info on Admin ((AND NO I WILL NOT GO PUBLIC unless some absolutely vital/necessary situation arises~ like me getting sued or going to jail!!!!)) but best I can say with my limited net-fu and search-fu is he is NOT a gooberment anything..... So what if he testified for one side or the other? Anybody thats ever sat in a courtroom has for one side or the other:cool:

I can give Bweise this much....he knows how to stir the proverbial pot:rolleyes:

6172crew
08-25-2006, 10:22 PM
I bit hook line and sinker too.:D

On that same note I changed passwords that needing changing and Im glad that a member spoke up even if he might be wrong. I dont put it past any anti-gunners to try something wacky like posting our names on the web as bad guys because we like firearms.

treelogger
08-25-2006, 10:28 PM
I have been doing some research on the http://www.vbulletin.com/ website and as far as I can tell, they cannot view passwords but they can view the user IP.

check it out.

Typically, password-changing and password-entry routines don't store a cleartext version of the password, instead they perform a 1-way function (such as a secure hash), and store the hash. This makes it impossible to reconstruct the cleartext password from the hash. Now, this only works well if the hash is suitable salted with local information; I presume the people who wrote vbulletin were careful to engineer this correctly.

However, for an administrator who is competent at programming, it would be easy to replace the page where you enter your password (the login page, or the password change page) with another version that saves a cleartext copy of the password in a separate database. This would create a site that looks and works exactly like vbulleting, but happens to have a trapdoor that collects any passwords that come by in cleartext. The danger of this has been known for a long time in the security community. For a particularly amusing (amazing? assumed?) version of this hack, google for Ken Thompson's version of the Unix login program sometime.

So it would be possible for a skilled admin to create a forum that happens to also operate a cleartext password vacuum cleaning (collection) machine. Whether anyone has ever done so in practice, and whether this is the case here with gunscal, is a totally different question, on which I have no opinion, neither pro nor con.

6172crew
08-25-2006, 10:32 PM
What the hell kind of treelogger are you?:confused:

xenophobe
08-25-2006, 10:40 PM
In vbulletin, even the board owner cannot see the passwords. I must have hit the post accidentally, or not remembered hitting it. I've since changed my password, so consider my brief amazement unfounded. Thank you.

Kestryll
08-25-2006, 10:44 PM
Okay, time to straighten out a few things.
From the Admin Panel the closest I can get to seeing your passwords is to click on a button to send a reminder password to the email address you registered under. It never gives me access to the password itself that I could find.

Xenophobe the only two admins on this board are Ramon and myself. While I can't say with 100% certainty that Ramon didn't get into your account that is only because I am not him and do not know what he does . Because of that fact alone I can only be 99.999% certain and add that I can not fathom for the life of me how or why he would do that.
I can say that I give you my word, honor bound to combat, that I did not access your account neither do I know how to access your password.
I don't know how it happened I will be more than willing to work with you to find out who and how it was done.

As for the ownership and possible 'ulterior motives' of the gunscal forum I will say only this.
We have some information that has lead to questions but we have no hard facts or evidence.
We have speculation and accusatory guessing but no solid information.
Visits by the DOJ, State or Fed, are pretty much par for the course for most gunboard.
The bottom line is there are suspicions and questions with little to back them up and no answers to be had yet. All speculating, guessing and accussing is going to do is make bigger rifts between members and boards. no one benefits from that.
If there is that great a concern lets chill out, take a moment and work together to figure out first if there is indeed any cause for concern!

I'm sure I missed some questions, it's not intentional, typing with a sprained thumb sucks and I need a break.

blkA4alb
08-25-2006, 10:48 PM
PM sent Kestryll.

maxicon
08-25-2006, 10:58 PM
It's been mentioned several times now: if they can log in as you, they can read your PM's. If people are doing anything underhanded in their PM's, that can help them figure out who to start investigating.

Others have said this, but here goes.

I never post anything on the 'net that I wouldn't want made public. You can always assume that any site can be compromised, either by insiders or outsiders, and that the government can get anything they want. That's without even bringing up Echelon and its ilk.

I have to say that it seems extremely unlikely that the CADOJ would put up a bogus gun board, complete with the only Cal-specific for-sale forums available right now, solely to harvest passwords so they could read calguns PMs.

It just doesn't make any sense - the upside for them is very small, and the downside is huge. Anything's possible, of course, but this is definitely heading into tinfoil hat territory, IMO.

Note that I'm not defending gunscal per se, but until there's something more than circumstantial evidence, I'll reserve judgement, and keep posting in both places. I don't see any more risk in one or the other.

max

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 11:25 PM
[[Edited]]

PMs ansewed...I think we're onto some resolution here folks; stay tuned, I'll let you know who/what/where and what nots of everything I can (that isn't private!)


I still think that with a little TOOO little info, a member who cant say for sure if he did/didn't accidently hit a pm as read, an admin who was AWOL for 24 hours, no one else noticing said same about PM's, a change in board format,and realtime communications.........

we get what we got right here:cool:

One Pissed off Metalhead...........

and one very confused set of two different boards.

So now for some real news---

THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.....................yet:cool:

chickenfried
08-25-2006, 11:35 PM
Xenophobe's pm/account problem was brought up as a calguns issue, unrelated to gunscal. Shouldn't you be getting ready for a match :p ?

metalhead357
08-25-2006, 11:42 PM
Shouldn't you be getting ready for a match :p ?

Me? Naw..... I only SAY I collect guns and shoot..I have no recollection of...I am not a member of the ......I saw nothin'.:p

No match for me...just a UNfab 4 letter word...... WORK

chris
08-25-2006, 11:51 PM
my suggestion for your new password should consist with at least one special character like this @ and atleast to numerical characters and of course a mix of upper and lower case.

if this has not been posted allready this is one of the best ways of protecting your account. this is the type of password the federal government requires.

also this type of conduct by our DOJ does not surprise me. they must be mad that we got organized and caught them in a lie and now they want to bust people. disgusting i think.

Satex
08-26-2006, 12:04 AM
I haven't seen a SINGLE modern security system in which an admin can see your password. An admin can always reset or change your password but you would know that immediately as your old one would no longer works. This has been standard practice since late 80's!


Some good news, he doesnt think Admin can look at passwords.

xenophobe
08-26-2006, 12:19 AM
I still think that with a little TOOO little info, a member who cant say for sure if he did/didn't accidently hit a pm as read,

Xenophobe's pm/account problem was brought up as a calguns issue, unrelated to gunscal. Shouldn't you be getting ready for a match :p ?

As chickenfried said... I said this was unrelated to your BS. WTH are you bringing me into your little tantrum for? :rolleyes:

metalhead357
08-26-2006, 12:22 AM
As chickenfried said... I said this was unrelated to your BS. WTH are you bringing me into your little tantrum for? :rolleyes:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry! Seemed in the 6 pages of read~ that it was ((at some point)) an issue:p

Tantrum? Nah! I'm just.....wordy:D

xenophobe
08-26-2006, 12:22 AM
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. :)


MIGHT I add there is NO FREAKIN' IP ADDRESSES available here on Calguns?

To mods there would be. And why would you open them up. That is a violation of privacy, IMO.

I have committed no crimes, nor do I even privately condone illegal acts. However, I do not want my IP publicly displayed.

GTKrockeTT
08-26-2006, 12:25 AM
I haven't seen a SINGLE modern security system in which an admin can see your password. An admin can always reset or change your password but you would know that immediately as your old one would no longer works. This has been standard practice since late 80's!

then you haven't seen enough.;) as a single example just use L0phtcrack, now @stake, on a MS Windows system and crack just about all the passwords for users accounts stored on that machine. if run on a domain controller or active directory controller, you'll be able to see all the passwords domain wide.

i'd be very surprised if there hasn't been a crack or hack to brute force it's way for vbulletin accounts (assuming the user has access to the database, i.e., an admin).

Kestryll
08-26-2006, 12:39 AM
then you haven't seen enough.;) as a single example just use L0phtcrack, now @stake, on a MS Windows system and crack just about all the passwords for users accounts stored on that machine. if run on a domain controller or active directory controller, you'll be able to see all the passwords domain wide.

i'd be very surprised if there hasn't been a crack or hack to brute force it's way for vbulletin accounts (assuming the user has access to the database, i.e., an admin).

Now we're getting into theoreticals. One of the basic parts of life is that if we can build it we can break it. Or in my case no matter who built it I can break it, all I have to do is try to fix it!
I'm sure someone somewhere has found a way around every forum software out there, that person isn't me. Every time I open the Admin panel you all run the risk of ending up discussing flower arranging and the best recipes for powdered moose!

I won't say no one can do it but I will say no one here who has the access can.

maschronic
08-26-2006, 12:52 AM
did the admin at gunscal ever say who he/she is at calguns?? i read thru the whole thing and nobody talked about it. i'm just curious.

metalhead357
08-26-2006, 1:56 AM
1.Okay, thanks for clearing that up. :)

2.To mods there would be. And why would you open them up. That is a violation of privacy, IMO.

3.I have committed no crimes, nor do I even privately condone illegal acts. However, I do not want my IP publicly displayed.

1. Good, Glad we cleared that up~ I'd say group hug but my wife would get mad and everyone here would think I was a tree logger...or was that a tree hugger:D

2. EXACTLY. Exactly my point (That the sarcasim didn't come through in my post~ I see I was neglectful). Ip addresses are not exactly "private" per se but I DO know what you mean and I dont think that its beneficial for "everybody" to see them....

3. Dont want mine public either~ I already get enough viri, spam, fodder, malware from surfin! And I dont even "do porn" sites! (Well, Ok, not THAT often:rolleyes: )


did the admin at gunscal ever say who he/she is at calguns?? i read thru the whole thing and nobody talked about it. i'm just curious.


Yes and no. AFAIK, he aint said he wants to "go public" but at least one person outside the mods has spoken to him. Several have his name and it all apears legit to me. Beyond that~ I'll respect his privacy and not post what I know about him unless/until I hear otherwise straight from him......

ALL this I'm sure will be fully resolved soon. He did post that he will not be available tomorrow/Saturday as he's doing some personal things (that he did share with the mods...but again private) and will try to get to the bottom of all the "what went wrongs". I wont say more than that unless/until I hear otherwise from him.

I tell ya'...what a whirlwind of an evening....
The phrases "mole hills" and the related all have taken on new meanings.

More when I have it folks.

Can'thavenuthingood
08-26-2006, 8:22 AM
Powdered Moose?

You have a recipe for powdered Moose?

Vick

sac7000
08-26-2006, 1:36 PM
Powdered Moose?

You have a recipe for powdered Moose?

Vick

Here's my family's receipe for " Powdered Moose "

2 cups of finely sifted moose powder (gray is fine, white is better)

1/2 stick of butter
2 tsps of vanilla
1 cup sugar
1/2 cup Rum (100 proof or better)
1 or 2 pine nuts crushed

Bake in oven at 325 for one hour. Cool on pie rack.

Garnish with deer antlers if you like

Enjoy

Shane916
08-26-2006, 1:42 PM
How did this go from passwords being compromised to the recipe for Powdered Moose :eek:

WokMaster1
08-26-2006, 2:15 PM
Here's my family's receipe for " Powdered Moose "

2 cups of finely sifted moose powder (gray is fine, white is better)

1/2 stick of butter
2 tsps of vanilla
1 cup sugar
1/2 cup Rum (100 proof or better)
1 or 2 pine nuts crushed

Bake in oven at 325 for one hour. Cool on pie rack.

Garnish with deer antlers if you like

Enjoy


Hmmmm! It's going on my specials for tonite's menu...... Got to come up with some old Chinese housewife's tale ...Good for your dong!!!:D

sac7000
08-26-2006, 2:36 PM
How did this go from passwords being compromised to the recipe for Powdered Moose :eek:

I dunno, could be a DOJ ploy to get us feeling warm and fuzzy again. I smell conspiracy cooking...

markymark
08-26-2006, 4:49 PM
How did this go from passwords being compromised to the recipe for Powdered Moose :eek:
That's the beauty of a discussion board. :)

Can'thavenuthingood
08-26-2006, 4:56 PM
The Administrator started it with suggestions of Powdered Moose and floral arrangements. He set the atmosphere (can't spell ambience) for fine dining.

I think it was his subliminal way of changing course.

Vick

mow
08-26-2006, 5:45 PM
Wow just wow.

18 pages:confused: FTW

*edit* weird this post was the first of page 18, what conspiracy has allowed this post to slip a page to 17?:confused: The humanity:p

Mirage
08-26-2006, 9:17 PM
This has actually been very educational. Looking up info from IP addresses. Password cracking. False pages for logins. I didn't know there was a Yahoo guns specific to CA..

Kestryll
08-27-2006, 1:11 AM
The Administrator started it with suggestions of Powdered Moose and floral arrangements. He set the atmosphere (can't spell ambience) for fine dining.

I think it was his subliminal way of changing course.

Vick

Honestly it was just a weak attempt at humor, I wish I was that slick! ...Maybe not, then I'd have to be a democrat..

C.G.
08-27-2006, 2:26 AM
Honestly it was just a weak attempt at humor, I wish I was that slick! ...Maybe not, then I'd have to be a democrat..

Yup, they are hilarious.:eek:

artherd
08-27-2006, 2:26 AM
Great, what a mess. I can imagine DOJ is not too happy with the existance of calguns, and I'd guess that the powers that be would rather see us all fragmented, alone, cutoff and afraid.

chris
08-27-2006, 2:47 AM
Great, what a mess. I can imagine DOJ is not too happy with the existance of calguns, and I'd guess that the powers that be would rather see us all fragmented, alone, cutoff and afraid.


yes i agree we are a united front and that strikes fear in their heart. we can beat these guys by what we are doing getting organized and standing up for what is right and not the status quo.

metalhead357
08-27-2006, 3:52 AM
Wow just wow.

18 pages FTW

*edit* weird this post was the first of page 18, what conspiracy has allowed this post to slip a page to 17? The humanity:p

Hmmm, gotta set them options to view more posts per page.......
I'm only on page 6!!!!!!!!!!!:p

FWIW- it sounds like mosta ya' have figured out were up, we're back (some of us anyways:D ) and finanally....NO ONE wants us to "fragment". If all ya' wanna do is use the "other" board for gun sales and saying things with looser filters~ then come on down! Just remember keep it legal and you're welcome anytime!!!!!!!!!!!

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 8:14 AM
I don't see how having two boards is going to fragment us anymore than us having our normal disagreements on everything and anything. The more I look at this, the more I think Bill Wiese just tried to sink the other board because he didn't want us fragmented. In hindsight it should have been clear the reason Gunscal was getting hit by those agencies was the same exact reason Calguns is, it is a source of information for them. It is also very plausible that there are shooters at those locations who might want to keep up on things as well. As far as it being registered in PA and being served in Germany, what a great idea. How is the DOJ going to try and serve anyone papers when the board is not subject to their jurisdiction?

Either way, it doesn't matter. Bill's post served a great security lesson and it also reminded everyone we really have nothing to fear as long as you don't break the law. As far as Gunscal being shady, I don't think so. I just think we are incredibly paranoid and for good reason.

sac7000
08-27-2006, 8:21 AM
Great, what a mess. I can imagine DOJ is not too happy with the existance of calguns, and I'd guess that the powers that be would rather see us all fragmented, alone and afraid.

Cut off the head of the calguns dragon and the body dies. Introduce mis-trust and doubt. A complex strategy to defeat your adversary without firing a single shot.

tenpercentfirearms
08-27-2006, 8:33 AM
Come on. Calguns is not going to die. Even if Calguns split, all of us who are deep into this are going to go somewhere. No matter what happens, this board doesn't make us right wing radical gun nuts. We make ourselves that way! We will always find a way to stay up to date on gun issues and to communicate about what is going on with the DOJ.

Ramon provided us with the place to do this. We did the rest. We have not gone anywhere and even if Calguns died, we would move on and keep fighting. That is what we do.

However, Calguns isn't going anywhere. We have nothing to worry about.

sac7000
08-27-2006, 9:43 AM
Come on. Calguns is not going to die. Even if Calguns split, all of us who are deep into this are going to go somewhere. No matter what happens, this board doesn't make us right wing radical gun nuts. We make ourselves that way! We will always find a way to stay up to date on gun issues and to communicate about what is going on with the DOJ.

Ramon provided us with the place to do this. We did the rest. We have not gone anywhere and even if Calguns died, we would move on and keep fighting. That is what we do.

However, Calguns isn't going anywhere. We have nothing to worry about.

I agree. Calguns is not going anywhere. This says it all.

Calguns.net Statistics as of August 27, 2006 9:42AM
Threads: 13,233, Posts: 178,785, Members: 5,508, Active Members: 1,850

And the membership continues to grow at an astounding rate. It's friggin amazing. Take a look at the view counter on popular threads. If I was trying to get my point across to a select group, this is the place to start a firestorm of interest. No wonder the DOJ would like to see Calguns go away.

grammaton76
08-27-2006, 3:23 PM
Come on. Calguns is not going to die. Even if Calguns split, all of us who are deep into this are going to go somewhere. No matter what happens, this board doesn't make us right wing radical gun nuts. We make ourselves that way! We will always find a way to stay up to date on gun issues and to communicate about what is going on with the DOJ.

Personally, I think it would be very much in the DOJ's best interests for us NOT to go running off to other boards and spreading what we've learned.

I know I hang out here more than over on sksboards nowadays. And when I do pop over there, I tend to get questions about OLL's from people who haven't heard yet.

Imagine, if you will, what would happen if we ALL returned to other boards, how many boards would 'catch fire' with the OLL stuff. This should be about the last thing the DOJ would want. :)

grammaton76
08-27-2006, 3:27 PM
The more I look at this, the more I think Bill Wiese just tried to sink the other board because he didn't want us fragmented.

This is something I really doubt. As the person who furnished an email from DOJ to a Gunscal mod, for purposes of finding their IP netblock, I can state that there was a VERY active concern on the behalf of the Gunscal mods. It didn't start with Bill - Bill just broke the news.

Now, he may have failed to sanity-check things thoroughly enough, perhaps. But the post he made was in character with the "oh CRAP!" nature of the behind the scenes communications.

SemiAutoSam
08-27-2006, 3:35 PM
this board doesn't make us right wing radical gun nuts.


Damn that's why I came here in the first place.

xrMike
08-27-2006, 5:11 PM
I can't believe I actually read all this crap!

6172crew
08-27-2006, 5:16 PM
I can't believe I actually read all this crap!
You should have been here from the get go. It was probably a laugh fest at our DOJ.:(

grammaton76
08-27-2006, 8:37 PM
The greatest stunt the devil ever pulled, was convincing humanity that he doesn't exist.

Jury's out, for me, and will remain so indefinitely. Heck, for that matter no one can even be sure about Ramon. People who've met him could just be DOJ employees!

Won't change anything for me though. Frankly, I wouldn't mind if I were posting on a server hosted by the DOJ itself - I'm not posting anything illegal, so I don't care who runs the boards.

Kestryll
08-27-2006, 10:37 PM
Did you all miss the part where I deleted all those threads because I am sick of the bickering and sniping?
I hope it is clear now.
Take it to email if you have that much of a desire to take shots at each other.
For now this thread is done, it's purpose well served and it's warning of caution with passwords given.