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harbinger007
01-25-2011, 6:40 PM
In the wiki at http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ is the following statement:
Can I own the Taurus Judge or similar firearms in California?

No, the Taurus Judge and other handguns that can fire shotgun shells are defined as ‘short barreled shotguns' by California law.

Please note the phrase "that can fire shotgun shells".

I just ran across this statement and a conversation with one of our CGN vendors came to mind (who I'd rather not name since I haven't talked to him for several months). Back last year I was looking into seeing if I could carry a handgun capable of shooting .410 as I had a squirrel problem on my farm getting out of hand. I was told that I could legally get a BFR (see http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp) in .45/.70 (please note I'm not saying the .45/.410 model) and that I could legally use it with .410 ammo since it was not identified as a shotgun. Even though it doesn't show the .410 on the barrel, it will shoot it fine, I was told. In other words, it's a handgun "that can fire shotgun shells." I never went ahead with this purchase because I didn't want to pack something that big and didn't want to spend that kind of money to shoot squirrels. As it worked out, it appears raptors may have controlled the population for me.

Is the wording in the wiki correct?

ke6guj
01-25-2011, 7:01 PM
the exact term is "designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell". Because I doubt that MR designed the .45-70 BFR to shoot fixed shotgun shells (and IIRC, their website warns not to) so owning a .45-70 BFR should be legal. but once you chamber a .410 shell into it, it could be argued that you "redesigned" it to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

harbinger007
01-25-2011, 7:05 PM
Thanks, Jack.

GettoPhilosopher
01-25-2011, 7:26 PM
As it worked out, it appears raptors may have controlled the population for me.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/simonroberts/images/43245373-velociraptors.jpg

0_o

(don't hate me, I couldn't help it!)

Texas Boy
01-25-2011, 8:24 PM
I'm pretty certain any gun chambered in .45/70 GOV will chamber and fire a .410 shotgun shell. That doesn't mean the manufacture says it is OK to do so or that it won't harm the gun, but it will load and fire. And frankly I'd be surprised if firing .410 shotgun shells from a .45/70 had any detrimental effects.

But I think Jack hit the nail on the head. The DA would likely argue you
"redesigned" the gun when you placed the .410 shell in the chamber. No idea if that argument would hold up in court, but I wouldn't want to be the test case.

Purple K
01-25-2011, 8:53 PM
the exact term is "designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell". Because I doubt that MR designed the .45-70 BFR to shoot fixed shotgun shells (and IIRC, their website warns not to) so owning a .45-70 BFR should be legal. but once you chamber a .410 shell into it, it could be argued that you "redesigned" it to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

What about those "snake loads" that you can buy in 9mm, .38, .45, etc. Those are shotgun shells, just not in the traditional sizes. Wouldn't putting those snake loads into a revolver "redisgn" it into a shotgun with a revolving cylinder?

harbinger007
01-25-2011, 9:07 PM
<snip>
For this reason, loading .410 shells into a BFR in California is pretty silly and asking for trouble.

I had already decided not to buy a BFR to use for .410 due to size/cost considerations, but thanks for providing some other ideas. My stated question in the OP was if the wording in the wiki is correct. It seems to be incorrect, technically (otherwise just buying the .45/.410 in CA would be illegal).

bruss01
01-25-2011, 9:21 PM
What about those "snake loads" that you can buy in 9mm, .38, .45, etc. Those are shotgun shells, just not in the traditional sizes. Wouldn't putting those snake loads into a revolver "redisgn" it into a shotgun with a revolving cylinder?

LEGITIMATE QUESTION ALERT!!!

Is there, in law, a definition of "shotgun shell"???

Or is this left to the realm of "everybody knows" or "it's common knowledge that..." or "industry standard". There are pistol-caliber shot-shells that have been in use "out there" for decades. How are they not disqualifiers? How does their very existence not make every pistol those rounds will fit "short barreled shotguns" or AOW's?

Munk
01-25-2011, 9:24 PM
...All this assumes that one uses ultra-short .410 shells (which are no longer commercially available...

This is available at walmarts in SoCal (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=847)

Federal's .410 handgun ammo 2-1/2 " shells.. It keeps sticking in my head as something that serves no purpose being sold in CA.

InGrAM
01-25-2011, 9:38 PM
LEGITIMATE QUESTION ALERT!!!

Is there, in law, a definition of "shotgun shell"???

Or is this left to the realm of "everybody knows" or "it's common knowledge that..." or "industry standard". There are pistol-caliber shot-shells that have been in use "out there" for decades. How are they not disqualifiers? How does their very existence not make every pistol those rounds will fit "short barreled shotguns" or AOW's?

wow..... this really has me thinking..... this kinda scares me for some reason..

Pyrodyne
01-25-2011, 9:42 PM
What about those "snake loads" that you can buy in 9mm, .38, .45, etc. Those are shotgun shells, just not in the traditional sizes. Wouldn't putting those snake loads into a revolver "redisgn" it into a shotgun with a revolving cylinder?

On a technicality, a shotgun is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder. A revolver carbine that chambers shotgun shells would fit the description of a assault shotgun due to the revolving cylinder.

A revolver has the challenge of a short barreled shotgun, such as the Taurus Judge. It is designed to fire .410 shotgun ammunition by widening the rim rebate on a .45LC chamber. It is specifically designed to chamber and fire shotgun ammunition. Although the Taurus Judge has a revolving cylinder, it does not meet the definition of shotgun (designed to be fired from the shoulder).

Loading shot into pistol brass by california law does not make it shotgun ammunition, and same for rifle brass. This is why "snake shot" is widely available in many calibers.

See PC 12776.1(7,8) and PC 12020 (c)(1)(A).

ke6guj
01-25-2011, 9:43 PM
What about those "snake loads" that you can buy in 9mm, .38, .45, etc. Those are shotgun shells, just not in the traditional sizes. Wouldn't putting those snake loads into a revolver "redisgn" it into a shotgun with a revolving cylinder?I think there is a differernce between fixed shotgun shells and shotshells.

LEGITIMATE QUESTION ALERT!!!

Is there, in law, a definition of "shotgun shell"???

Or is this left to the realm of "everybody knows" or "it's common knowledge that..." or "industry standard". There are pistol-caliber shot-shells that have been in use "out there" for decades. How are they not disqualifiers? How does their very existence not make every pistol those rounds will fit "short barreled shotguns" or AOW's?it is because of their existance and te fact that CADOJ has never moved against .22lr, .38/.357, .44, .45 firearms that could chamber a shotshell is a defacto acknowledgement that CADOJ views shotshells differently than shotgun shells. And could you see the defense arguement in court if CADOJ tried to argue that a Ruger GP100 was an illegal SBS, when CADOJ itself lists the Ruger GP100 as one of the "not unsafe" handguns that you can purchase from a dealer (who can be considered to be an agent of the state). If CADOJ approves a DROS transfering a GP100 to you, and then later arrests you for owning a GP100, I dunno, does the term entrapment fit?

12voltguy
01-25-2011, 9:44 PM
This is available at walmarts in SoCal (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=847)

Federal's .410 handgun ammo 2-1/2 " shells.. It keeps sticking in my head as something that serves no purpose being sold in CA.

Yup, they are here in NorCal Walmart too.....:confused:

ke6guj
01-25-2011, 9:59 PM
This is available at walmarts in SoCal (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=847)

Federal's .410 handgun ammo 2-1/2 " shells.. It keeps sticking in my head as something that serves no purpose being sold in CA.I wonder if that was just something that Walmart corporate got in stock and had it shipped to all stores that sold ammo. not realizing/caring that the "true" market in CA is very limiited. I wonder how many boxes got sold during the ammo craze to people who wanted to use it in their .410 shotgun or just bought it because they could. And now, with those sales numbers in the system, the inventory system automatically restocks it whenever it gets sold.

Pyrodyne
01-25-2011, 10:00 PM
LEGITIMATE QUESTION ALERT!!!

Is there, in law, a definition of "shotgun shell"???

Or is this left to the realm of "everybody knows" or "it's common knowledge that..." or "industry standard". There are pistol-caliber shot-shells that have been in use "out there" for decades. How are they not disqualifiers? How does their very existence not make every pistol those rounds will fit "short barreled shotguns" or AOW's?

In short, there is no legal definition for a "fixed shotgun shell".

Pistol and rifle "shotshells" are loaded into standard pistol and rifle brass. "Fixed shotgun shell" generally fits the bill of a combination of brass and cardboard/plastic, and specifically "shotgun calibers" of .410, 20, 12 gauge, etc.

AOW's require a smooth bore, hence the Taurus Judge is not an AOW but a handgun in most states, a SBS in California. If you put a smooth bore on a Taurus Judge and tried to make it an AOW you would run afoul of assault shotgun laws again with it's revolving cylinder.

ke6guj
01-25-2011, 10:02 PM
AOW's require a smooth bore, hence the Taurus Judge is not an AOW but a handgun in most states, a SBS in California. If you put a smooth bore on a Taurus Judge and tried to make it an AOW you would run afoul of assault shotgun laws again with it's revolving cylinder.no you wouldn't. even with a smooth bore, a Judge is not a shotgun (not designed tobe fired from the shoulder) and therefore should not trigger any Shotgun AW prohibtions.

bruss01
01-25-2011, 10:29 PM
In short, there is no legal definition for a "fixed shotgun shell".

Pistol and rifle "shotshells" are loaded into standard pistol and rifle brass. "Fixed shotgun shell" generally fits the bill of a combination of brass and cardboard/plastic, and specifically "shotgun calibers" of .410, 20, 12 gauge, etc.

AOW's require a smooth bore, hence the Taurus Judge is not an AOW but a handgun in most states, a SBS in California. If you put a smooth bore on a Taurus Judge and tried to make it an AOW you would run afoul of assault shotgun laws again with it's revolving cylinder.

I know that, and you know that... but I do not know of anywhere this is defined in CA law.

And someone previously said that revolvers are not shotguns (post above) but I beg to differ... federal and CA have conflicting definitions on that score and that is why revolvers like the Taurus Judge are legal federally and illegal in CA.

So, just because CA has not prosecuted mfr's of handguns that will fire shotshells of some kind, does not mean that they could not, under a new DA, make a new determination that classifies them as short barrelled shotguns. Sure, it might be an uphill battle in court, but we have seen with Heller and McDonald that anti's will sometime joust with windmills... to the DEATH.

My question is not would they, should they... but what LEGAL definition in CA law prevents them? I think it's a valid question.

dfletcher
01-25-2011, 10:40 PM
A 2 1/2" 410 shell is a pretty lousy fit in a 45/70. Also, seems to me it wouldn't be all that difficult to fashion and load a slightly resized and refitted brass 45/70 case - would modifying a 45/70 case and stuffing it with shot for use in a 45 Colt chambered gun like a Bond Derringer be a no no?

Purple K
01-26-2011, 5:47 AM
Sounds like enough gray area to challenge the ban of the Taurus Judge.

Wherryj
01-26-2011, 7:41 AM
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f22/f22_09.jpg

It seems a bit wasteful, but I'm glad that the USAF could be of assistance.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/simonroberts/images/43245373-velociraptors.jpg

0_o

(don't hate me, I couldn't help it!)

GettoPhilosopher
01-26-2011, 8:23 AM
It seems a bit wasteful, but I'm glad that the USAF could be of assistance.

Raptors flying raptors? We're dead!

Decoligny
01-26-2011, 8:32 AM
On a technicality, a shotgun is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder. A revolver carbine that chambers shotgun shells would fit the description of a assault shotgun due to the revolving cylinder.

A revolver has the challenge of a short barreled shotgun, such as the Taurus Judge. It is designed to fire .410 shotgun ammunition by widening the rim rebate on a .45LC chamber. It is specifically designed to chamber and fire shotgun ammunition. Although the Taurus Judge has a revolving cylinder, it does not meet the definition of shotgun (designed to be fired from the shoulder).
Loading shot into pistol brass by california law does not make it shotgun ammunition, and same for rifle brass. This is why "snake shot" is widely available in many calibers.

See PC 12776.1(7,8) and PC 12020 (c)(1)(A).

While the Taurus Judge does not meet the Federal or the State definition of a "Shotgun", it does meet the State definition of a "Short Barrelled Shotgun". The second definition does not rely on the first definition in any way, shape, or form. So a gun legally does not have to be a shotgun in order to be a short barrelled shotgun.

Pyrodyne
01-26-2011, 7:30 PM
no you wouldn't. even with a smooth bore, a Judge is not a shotgun (not designed tobe fired from the shoulder) and therefore should not trigger any Shotgun AW prohibtions.

I stand corrected. I read the ATF definition which does not apply to California AW definitions.

§ 479.11
Shotgun.
A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun
shell.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-27-2011, 6:37 AM
A 2 1/2" 410 shell is a pretty lousy fit in a 45/70. Also, seems to me it wouldn't be all that difficult to fashion and load a slightly resized and refitted brass 45/70 case - would modifying a 45/70 case and stuffing it with shot for use in a 45 Colt chambered gun like a Bond Derringer be a no no?


I've always thought that a better approach would be to take .460 S&W brass & shorten it so that it fit all the way to the end of a .45 Colt chamber. That would give you some extra space & you could stuff the thing with some extra pellets. Maybe even enough extra to give you some "snake medicine" that would work past 10 feet.


http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/simonroberts/images/43245373-velociraptors.jpg

0_o

(don't hate me, I couldn't help it!)


LOL! That's what instantly came to my mind as well.


The Raisuli

dfletcher
01-27-2011, 9:56 AM
I've always thought that a better approach would be to take .460 S&W brass & shorten it so that it fit all the way to the end of a .45 Colt chamber. That would give you some extra space & you could stuff the thing with some extra pellets. Maybe even enough extra to give you some "snake medicine" that would work past 10 feet.



Case length for a 460 is 1.800, case length for the 45 Colt is 1.285 - size the front .625 of the 460 so it clears the shoulder in the chamber and you'd be fine I think. I'm guessing a 44 Magnum sizer would be about right.

I thought of doing this in my 45 Colt Bond Derringer, but unlike a smooth revolver cylinder that .625 of the 460 case would expand against rifling and probably be tough to extract. But for a revolver I think it would work fine.

moleculo
01-27-2011, 11:13 AM
I have a question about this part of the law:


(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following: (A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. (D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.


If you had a regular shotgun and also possessed a separate, not installed barrel for it that was too short, that seems like a violation of this PC, too....correct?

This comment:
I thought of doing this in my 45 Colt Bond Derringer,
made me wonder about dfletcher just buying the .45/410 Bond Derringer barrel that is made for that gun but not actually installing it while in CA (use it out of state, only), but that would probably be a violation, right?

bussda
01-27-2011, 11:42 AM
On a technicality, a shotgun is defined as designed to be fired from the shoulder.

No. Shotgun is a smooth bore weapon designed to shoot shotgun shells.

ke6guj
01-27-2011, 1:03 PM
No. Shotgun is a smooth bore weapon designed to shoot shotgun shells.

a shotgun is defined (for section 12020, but can be assumed to be the chapterwide defintions) as a smooth-bore firearm that is designed to be fired from the shoulder (read as has a shoulder-stock) and shoot fixed shotgun shells.

jimx
01-27-2011, 4:45 PM
I was told that I could legally get a BFR (see http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp) in .45/.70 (please note I'm not saying the .45/.410 model) and that I could legally use it with .410 ammo since it was not identified as a shotgun. Even though it doesn't show the .410 on the barrel, it will shoot it fine, I was told.



From Magnum Research’s web site

BFR .45/70 Gov't Revolver

*Please note the .410 shot shell/slug cartridge is not compatible with the .45/70.

Legal for Sale in California pursuant to Sec. 12133 of SB15.

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45-707

Mulay El Raisuli
01-28-2011, 6:55 AM
Case length for a 460 is 1.800, case length for the 45 Colt is 1.285 - size the front .625 of the 460 so it clears the shoulder in the chamber and you'd be fine I think. I'm guessing a 44 Magnum sizer would be about right.

I thought of doing this in my 45 Colt Bond Derringer, but unlike a smooth revolver cylinder that .625 of the 460 case would expand against rifling and probably be tough to extract. But for a revolver I think it would work fine.


Which inspires another thought. How important is the shoulder anyway? I.E., couldn't a machinist just bore it away so that you could use a full-length case? I realize that the shoulder is there for a reason. I also realize that you could never sell such a modified revolver because it could wind up in the hands of someone who did not know about the mod.

Or, even simpler, you could trim the case to be just short of the shoulder. That would still give extra capacity (over the standard case length) yet would avoid extraction problems.

Also, I seem to recall seeing full-length brass cases for the .410 somewhere or another. Would that help anyone with a 45/70 & thinking of making up a snake load?


The Raisuli

dfletcher
01-28-2011, 2:37 PM
Which inspires another thought. How important is the shoulder anyway? I.E., couldn't a machinist just bore it away so that you could use a full-length case? I realize that the shoulder is there for a reason. I also realize that you could never sell such a modified revolver because it could wind up in the hands of someone who did not know about the mod.

Or, even simpler, you could trim the case to be just short of the shoulder. That would still give extra capacity (over the standard case length) yet would avoid extraction problems.

Also, I seem to recall seeing full-length brass cases for the .410 somewhere or another. Would that help anyone with a 45/70 & thinking of making up a snake load?


The Raisuli

In a 45 Colt revolver I suppose the shoulder would prevent someone from stuffing a 454 in there - don't know if OAL would make the mistake obvious. Remember, Colt initially made their 1917 revolvers with no shoulder (ACP's in moon clip) so on a rimmed cartridge probably no real effect.

I know of the 410 brass cases, I think I'd skip them unless the "410" stamp can be removed. The 460 brass seems like a good choice, I wouldn't bother removing the shoulder, I don't think it would cause any extraction problems. On the Bond though the rifling starts where the shoulder ends, that might be sticky.

dfletcher
01-28-2011, 2:38 PM
I have a question about this part of the law:



If you had a regular shotgun and also possessed a separate, not installed barrel for it that was too short, that seems like a violation of this PC, too....correct?

This comment:

made me wonder about dfletcher just buying the .45/410 Bond Derringer barrel that is made for that gun but not actually installing it while in CA (use it out of state, only), but that would probably be a violation, right?

Yes, in effect onstructive possession applies. If you got the barrel, you got the gun.

Anchors
01-28-2011, 5:53 PM
On the 45-70, the situation is less clear. "Everyone" knows that an unmodified 45-70 chamber will accept commercial .410 shells. Interestingly, on their website and their manuals Magnum Research explicitly warns against doing that. In this day and age of internet access, it would be pretty silly to use the defense "I didn't know it could take .410 shells", in particular not after being a participant in a discussion such as this. For this reason, loading .410 shells into a BFR in California is pretty silly and asking for trouble.

Ah, but alas if the manufacture warns against it then that explicitly means it wasn't designed to fire shotgun shells. And I think MR warning against it would be a good defense that it wasn't designed to do so.

Pyrodyne
01-28-2011, 7:23 PM
Reading over the materials, laws and history, i came across mention of straight-rifled barrels, which were made to comply with sbs laws. The rifling imparts no spin and as such does not affect shot pattern as much as twist rifling. I am not sure what exact effect this has, it would not affect CA sbs laws if it chambers standard shotgun calibers. It may allow for a custom build .45/70 straight rifled handgun that fires handloaded shot in standard brass. I wouldnt want to be the test case without some words from higher up, but it screams possibilities.

ke6guj
01-28-2011, 7:31 PM
yup, nothing says that you can't have 1:100' rifling if you want.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-29-2011, 5:24 AM
In a 45 Colt revolver I suppose the shoulder would prevent someone from stuffing a 454 in there - don't know if OAL would make the mistake obvious. Remember, Colt initially made their 1917 revolvers with no shoulder (ACP's in moon clip) so on a rimmed cartridge probably no real effect.

I know of the 410 brass cases, I think I'd skip them unless the "410" stamp can be removed. The 460 brass seems like a good choice, I wouldn't bother removing the shoulder, I don't think it would cause any extraction problems. On the Bond though the rifling starts where the shoulder ends, that might be sticky.


Happy to be of help.


The Raisuli

Mulay El Raisuli
01-29-2011, 5:25 AM
yup, nothing says that you can't have 1:100' rifling if you want.


Even better!


The Raisuli