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Im Broken
01-24-2011, 8:53 PM
my father in law works for some sort of maintenance company and while on the job found two, yes two Colt 1911's MKIV's. he knows people in LE and had them checked to see if they were reported stolen or lost, much to our surprise they came back clean.

what is the proper process for registering these? i wouldnt want him to get arrested or get in trouble for having unregistered handguns. he does have a handgun safety certificate and is allowed to own firearms.

obeygiant
01-24-2011, 9:09 PM
CGF Wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration)

Not all guns are registered

The net effect of these older guns is not all guns in California are registered with the state, and it is not required that they be registered.

DOJ FAQ

The California Department of Justice maintains a 'Frequently Asked Questions' page. Regarding registration, it says

26 How do I know if my firearms need to be registered?

There is no firearm registration requirement in California
except for assault weapon owners and personal handgun
importers. However, you may submit a Firearm Ownership Record
to the DOJ for any firearm you own. Having a Firearm Ownership
Record on file with the DOJ may help in the return of your
firearm if it is lost or stolen. With very few and specific
exceptions, all firearm transactions must be conducted through a
firearms dealer.


Voluntary Registration

An individual may voluntarily register a firearm with the state by filing a "Firearm Ownership Record" (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf).

A benefit of registering an unregistered handgun is that there are certain sentence enhancements for committing a crime with an unregistered handgun. The most relevant example is that illegal concealed carry is a felony if the handgun is not registered to the person illegally concealing the handgun but is a misdemeanor if the handgun is registered to the person carrying the handgun (Penal Code 12025 (a)(6)(B)).

ETA:

There is nothing illegal about owning an unregistered handgun but if your father would still like to do so then simply fill out the Voluntary Firearm Ownership Record (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf) form.

ElvenSoul
01-24-2011, 9:15 PM
First you must make a small sacrafice to honor the Gun Gods for Smiling upon you...seriously lucky...buy a lotto ticket...

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 9:16 PM
great info, thanks giant.

obeygiant
01-24-2011, 9:18 PM
First you must make a small sacrafice to honor the Gun Gods for Smiling upon you...seriously lucky...buy a lotto ticket...

This ^^. Send our congratulations to your father on his incredible find.

SID45
01-24-2011, 9:24 PM
what kind of job is that? I want to work there............lol

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 9:27 PM
This ^^. Send our congratulations to your father on his incredible find.

believe me. i hate him in a nice way. ill post a pic so you guys can see them.

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 9:29 PM
...........

sniper4usmc
01-24-2011, 9:38 PM
what if,those pistol belong to property owner,and later they report it lost/stolen??

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 9:43 PM
what if,those pistol belong to property owner,and later they report it lost/stolen??

its been way over a year and these are vacated buildings and units. they find all kinds of things. bikes, jewelry, phones, money, weed yes marijuana, all kinds of things. this by far the best find ever.

faterikcartman
01-24-2011, 9:44 PM
what if,those pistol belong to property owner,and later they report it lost/stolen??

This. I guess I'm at a loss how you can find something at a job site of value and think you can walk off with it.

I hope there are more facts that explain this but it struck me as sort of a "I was waking down the street and there was this keen Porsche sitting there in the gutter, and if someone wanted it surely they wouldn't have left it lying there in the street, so I thanked my lucky stars and towed it home; how can I register it?" story.

ventipossum
01-24-2011, 9:46 PM
Those are some nice 1911s. That is so cool that your dad found those.

Is he planning on selling them? I'm sure he will get a nice price for them.

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 10:00 PM
This. I guess I'm at a loss how you can find something at a job site of value and think you can walk off with it.

I hope there are more facts that explain this but it struck me as sort of a "I was waking down the street and there was this keen Porsche sitting there in the gutter, and if someone wanted it surely they wouldn't have left it lying there in the street, so I thanked my lucky stars and towed it home; how can I register it?" story.

i find it amusing that your comparing a pair of guns to a car. if they really wanted these they would have not left them behind. i mean how can you leave something of that value, trust me i didnt believe it either.


Those are some nice 1911s. That is so cool that your dad found those.

Is he planning on selling them? I'm sure he will get a nice price for them.

no, he is keeping them. i dont even know what the price ranges for these.

tlillard23
01-24-2011, 10:00 PM
ooops. I left those there. maybe you could just give them back to me....

edwardm
01-24-2011, 10:01 PM
Google for "abandoned property".



This. I guess I'm at a loss how you can find something at a job site of value and think you can walk off with it.

I hope there are more facts that explain this but it struck me as sort of a "I was waking down the street and there was this keen Porsche sitting there in the gutter, and if someone wanted it surely they wouldn't have left it lying there in the street, so I thanked my lucky stars and towed it home; how can I register it?" story.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-24-2011, 10:09 PM
Make sure he reads up on California Civil Code sections 2080 through 2080.3 and California Penal Code section 485 about what to do with found property. :)

bjl333
01-24-2011, 10:19 PM
Just a word of caution!! Throw away the barrels and get new ones. Just in case the barrels are dirty!!

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 10:20 PM
Make sure he reads up on California Civil Code sections 2080 through 2080.3 and California Penal Code section 485 about what to do with found property. :)


interesting. will have to talk to him about this. i thought it didnt matter since people always leave stuff behind.

Im Broken
01-24-2011, 10:24 PM
Just a word of caution!! Throw away the barrels and get new ones. Just in case the barrels are dirty!!


i see. this is how new i am at this, i didnt think about that. man this turned into something more complicated than i thought.

locosway
01-24-2011, 11:13 PM
:useless:

stix213
01-24-2011, 11:33 PM
The proper procedure is to send them to me for proper safety testing first :p

Wherryj
01-25-2011, 9:16 AM
First you must make a small sacrafice to honor the Gun Gods for Smiling upon you...seriously lucky...buy a lotto ticket...

That small sacrifice might entail paying a gunsmith to inspect said firearms. There wasn't much information about where they were found, but I'd suspect that some neglect was involved. Well cared for firearms are not "lost".

choprzrul
01-25-2011, 9:31 AM
Imagine this scenario: Your FiL jumps through all the hoops for CA found items and then registers them with the state. A week later, the original owner wakes up and decides he wants to go to the range. To his horror, he discovers that his prized pieces have been stolen. He calls the police to report stolen firearms and an officer is dispatched. The original owner produces the original sales receipt, associated paperwork with S/N, and the original box with matching S/N.

At that point, can your FiL justify removing those items that didn't belong to him? Abandoned property or not, were they his to take? If your FiL can't articulate a specific regulatory method that allowed a lawful transfer of ownership, I suspect that there may be some hard questions to be answered sometime in the future.

Blood Ocean
01-25-2011, 9:37 AM
Worry about tomorrow when it comes, just enjoy the treasures for today.

ralemzor
01-25-2011, 9:39 AM
Curious about this. I had a tenant leave a bunch of stuff once including 2 long guns and 1 handgun. I followed all laws regarding the found property but when I inquired at the police station about the guns, they told me I could leave the long guns with them and claim them later which I did, but they said I absolutely could not keep the handgun and I had to surrender it...sucks cause it was a nice s&w .22lr revolver. This was also about 15 years ago and it was in santa cruz so maybe it has changed.

Ron-Solo
01-25-2011, 11:11 AM
Make sure he reads up on California Civil Code sections 2080 through 2080.3 and California Penal Code section 485 about what to do with found property. :)

This! Because 485 PC is a misappropriation of found property and constitutes theft, theft of a firearm is a felony.

He needs to surrender them to the law enforcement agency where they were found and then file a claim to get them when they are unclaimed.

There is a legal and morally correct way to do things. There's a definite lack of ethics apparent in those that just say keep them.

Baconator
01-25-2011, 11:13 AM
what guns?

gunsmith
01-25-2011, 11:54 AM
i see. this is how new i am at this, i didnt think about that. man this turned into something more complicated than i thought.

yeah, uh, I think you should send the guns to me for safe keeping until it gets sorted out. & I tell you what-I'll clean the barrels

USMC VET
01-25-2011, 12:02 PM
If it has been over a year, and he has looked for any lost or stolen reports for the guns described then I see no problem with his father keeping them. I just don't see how after a year and proper check constitutes as theft.

The way I read 485pc is that his father needs knowledge of the true owner without making reasonable efforts to restore the property. If they do have some connections in LE as stated and they attempted to find more about the true owners and nothing came from it then I see waiting a year for the owners to file a report is reasonable efforts. Just my opinion though.

JimSar
01-25-2011, 12:07 PM
Curious about this. I had a tenant leave a bunch of stuff once including 2 long guns and 1 handgun. .

I had a tenant who always paid in cash, and had wads of currency in his pocket whenever he peeled off the rent money. One day he disappeared, I eventually found out that he was in jail. When I finally got his lease terminated and the house cleaned out, my handyman and I discovered a hastily patched 2' x 3' section of the wall. So, we decided to open it up, hoping to find,
me: guns
handyman: drogas
Both of us not wanting to find: body parts
Lucky for us there was noting but broken sheet rock.

Flintlock Tom
01-25-2011, 12:14 PM
If it has been over a year, and he has looked for any lost or stolen reports for the guns described then I see no problem with his father keeping them. I just don't see how after a year and proper check constitutes as theft.

The way I read 485pc is that his father needs knowledge of the true owner without making reasonable efforts to restore the property. If they do have some connections in LE as stated and they attempted to find more about the true owners and nothing came from it then I see waiting a year for the owners to file a report is reasonable efforts. Just my opinion though.

There's no gray area here. When property of value is found it is turned over to an authority to try to locate the owner.
If you wish to attach the word "honorable" or "ethical" to your name, you need to earn it.
My guess would be that the guns were stolen and the thief hid or abandoned them when things got hot.
Please do the right thing.

Quser.619
01-25-2011, 12:19 PM
I'd imagine that the maintenance company has a policy which you FiL agreed to regarding private property found. I too agree that the firearms should be surrendered to the authorities

Scott Connors
01-25-2011, 12:20 PM
Just a word of caution!! Throw away the barrels and get new ones. Just in case the barrels are dirty!!

He might want to do the same with the extractors as well.

hammerhands32
01-25-2011, 12:28 PM
Give them to the authorities? And have them destroyed? No LE agency is going to run any check beyond what you have done. I would try to do a little research to find who lived there last but i would not give any firearms to LE. Just my opinion

Post #308, my favorite

Flintlock Tom
01-25-2011, 2:34 PM
I thought it was policy on this forum to NOT recommend illegal behavior?

Im Broken
01-25-2011, 3:16 PM
Give them to the authorities? And have them destroyed? No LE agency is going to run any check beyond what you have done. I would try to do a little research to find who lived there last but i would not give any firearms to LE. Just my opinion

Post #308, my favorite

These firearms were abandoned, they were left with no gun lock, no carrying case and no magazines.

I really hate to give these to LE because they will "lose" them and or have then destroyed.

Ron-Solo
01-25-2011, 3:22 PM
These firearms were abandoned, they were left with no gun lock, no carrying case and no magazines.


Good chance they were involved in criminal activity.

I really hate to give these to LE because they will "lose" them and or have then destroyed.

Your "lose" comment is offensive. Destroyed isn't an issue, since the PROPERTY DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU.



Ethics are seriously absent in this thread. :mad:

dantodd
01-25-2011, 3:33 PM
Hold up folks.

If you take the time to read the statute and not persecute the honor of a man who you do not know and when you do not know the entirety of the circumstances.

While a "found" item does need to be handled in the manner laid out above this is not the case with "abandoned" objects.

So, if the maintenance service is, for example, cleaning out apartments or business rentals after someone vacates for whatever reason there is no reason to expect that the person "lost" the guns and they may well have abandoned them. There are a lot of circumstances in which someone might "abandon" even valuable property. The gun is in the bottom of a box of grandpa's old junk and it ends up at the curb or the "salvation army" or is simply left behind when someone cleans out grandpa's old apartment. Or someone doesn't know the value and just leaves them having no use for them.

Now, there may be some obligation to whoever hired the maintenance company to turn over any valuables but there may not be and there might even be a clause incentivising the maintenance company by specifically permitting them to keep any found articles.

You don't know and neither do I. I'll refrain from making any assumptions about the gentleman's intentions or ethics and I'd recommend you do the same.

Now, as for abandoned property, you are free to keep the property and have no obligation to turn it over to law enforcement.



2080.7. The provisions of this article have no application to
things which have been intentionally abandoned by their owner.

oldsmoboat
01-25-2011, 3:49 PM
I would assume they guns would become the property of the property owner.
IE:
I hire Moe to clean out a rental. He finds something of value there. The item belongs to me (as the owner of the rental), not Moe.

gabe123
01-25-2011, 4:00 PM
Gun buy "back" program....

bruss01
01-25-2011, 4:04 PM
I would not want to be one to advocate any illegal behavior, except possibly in the case where a greater miscarriage of justice would result by being a stickler in adhering to the letter of the law.

In those cases I think it is important to behave in a way that gives you a clean conscience and lets you sleep well at night. In this case the firearms were rescued and held for the previous owner for the past year. I would want someone to do the same for me if I had lost/misplaced some guns of mine. Now, in the intervening time, the owner may have died or gone to jail - if those are the case, the state would likely destroy the firearms. I think a greater injustice is perpetuated in having two fully functional firearms wantonly destroyed than there is in taking possession of them. The only moral caveat I would add is that if the true owner surfaces at some point you should be prepared to relinquish them.

As far as how to lawfully possess these two handguns, I for one would be interested in hearing options that do not involve surrendering them to the whims of this anti-gun state, even if that means coloring outside the lines a little to prevent a greater injustice.

Assuming a reasonable effort has been made to determine a lawful owner, let's consider options. Much of the law hinges on what is said... and the finder is the person who is the only witness to what actually transpired. So any investigation would have to hinge on what this person does or does not say. If they are non-roster guns, they could not be registered to a CA resident. There are no off-the-books transfers of handguns in this state. I'm wondering if they were not found in the rental unit, but instead were "found" by a friend/relative who lives in Nevada, let's say at a roadside rest area in NV in a bowling ball case, the law might be more forgiving and the story would not end with two perfectly fine handguns being destroyed. Too bad they were found in CA instead (wink, wink) and not in Nevada. Better that someone be able to enjoy them than that they be destroyed. After all, the guns didn't do anything wrong.

Recession
01-25-2011, 4:22 PM
my father in law works for some sort of maintenance company and while on the job found two, yes two Colt 1911's MKIV's. he knows people in LE and had them checked to see if they were reported stolen or lost, much to our surprise they came back clean.

So when you say they came back clean, that means no prior registered owner either?

Im Broken
01-25-2011, 6:15 PM
Hold up folks.

If you take the time to read the statute and not persecute the honor of a man who you do not know and when you do not know the entirety of the circumstances.

While a "found" item does need to be handled in the manner laid out above this is not the case with "abandoned" objects.

So, if the maintenance service is, for example, cleaning out apartments or business rentals after someone vacates for whatever reason there is no reason to expect that the person "lost" the guns and they may well have abandoned them. There are a lot of circumstances in which someone might "abandon" even valuable property. The gun is in the bottom of a box of grandpa's old junk and it ends up at the curb or the "salvation army" or is simply left behind when someone cleans out grandpa's old apartment. Or someone doesn't know the value and just leaves them having no use for them.

Now, there may be some obligation to whoever hired the maintenance company to turn over any valuables but there may not be and there might even be a clause incentivising the maintenance company by specifically permitting them to keep any found articles.

You don't know and neither do I. I'll refrain from making any assumptions about the gentleman's intentions or ethics and I'd recommend you do the same.

Now, as for abandoned property, you are free to keep the property and have no obligation to turn it over to law enforcement.

I really appreciate it. I am a very moral person and abide by the law where ever it needs to be. In addition, these are the internets and obviously everyone knows everyone. Cough...... however, whatever the case may be I will ask him to get in contact with the DOJ and ask for proper course of action. I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, cough. Cough.

Im Broken
01-25-2011, 6:35 PM
So when you say they came back clean, that means no prior registered owner either?

not quite, they came back not reported stolen or lost.

furyous68
01-25-2011, 7:58 PM
I've heard of cases where people get guns this way when they go to a storage auction. Could have been something similar. In which case the items would not have been stolen or lost... just abandoned. Maybe his dad works maintenance at a storage facility & was allowed to go through an abandoned unit?

dantodd
01-25-2011, 8:43 PM
I will ask him to get in contact with the DOJ and ask for proper course of action.

I would anonymously turn them in at a "buy back" before I asked the DOJ anything about gun laws. They have no obligation to tell you the truth and they have repeatedly shown that they also lack the ability to parse the law many times. Plus the Civil Code is not really their bailiwick even if they were competent in gun law. If your FIL is confident in his ownership rights in the firearms I would VolReg them and not sweat it. If there is any problem with the registration (which it sounds like there won't be as you had them checked) then he can happily turn them back over to their original owner.

I would soooooo not worry about "crime guns" etc. just shoot the hell out of them and enjoy them. Tool marks and barrel markings change dramatically over the life of a gun and if your FIL is a good citizen there is damn near zero chance of tests ever being made. CSI has really made people think that such silliness is fast, simple and reliable. It is anything but.

Im Broken
01-25-2011, 10:22 PM
I would anonymously turn them in at a "buy back" before I asked the DOJ anything about gun laws. They have no obligation to tell you the truth and they have repeatedly shown that they also lack the ability to parse the law many times. Plus the Civil Code is not really their bailiwick even if they were competent in gun law. If your FIL is confident in his ownership rights in the firearms I would VolReg them and not sweat it. If there is any problem with the registration (which it sounds like there won't be as you had them checked) then he can happily turn them back over to their original owner.

I would soooooo not worry about "crime guns" etc. just shoot the hell out of them and enjoy them. Tool marks and barrel markings change dramatically over the life of a gun and if your FIL is a good citizen there is damn near zero chance of tests ever being made. CSI has really made people think that such silliness is fast, simple and reliable. It is anything but.

What's a "buy back"????

N6ATF
01-26-2011, 12:00 AM
What's a "buy back"????

An event typically held by police departments wherein criminals are anonymously given varying amounts in gift cards to have their evidence destroyed and receive total immunity from prosecution.

russ69
01-26-2011, 12:49 AM
I would assume they guns would become the property of the property owner....I hire Moe to clean out a rental. He finds something of value there. The item belongs to me (as the owner of the rental), not Moe.

Exactly. When you find something of value, the first test you apply is; Did I buy this? If the answer is no, then it's not yours.

Saym14
01-26-2011, 8:58 AM
I had a tenant who always paid in cash, and had wads of currency in his pocket whenever he peeled off the rent money. One day he disappeared, I eventually found out that he was in jail. When I finally got his lease terminated and the house cleaned out, my handyman and I discovered a hastily patched 2' x 3' section of the wall. So, we decided to open it up, hoping to find,
me: guns
handyman: drogas
Both of us not wanting to find: body parts
Lucky for us there was noting but broken sheet rock.

LOL!!!

I found $40 cash once on the sidewalk once. I kept it.

gunsmith
01-26-2011, 12:33 PM
my ex found an old rusted out revolver in an abandoned AZ homestead, it was probably there for over 100 years. ... I don't like her anymore-maybe I should rat her out.

faterikcartman
01-26-2011, 2:27 PM
Wow. Just wow. Looks like there are a lot of people who will rationalize their way to any behaviour.

And just to clarify, if someone dies property doesn't necessarily escheat to the state -- the man's estate gets it. Such as a son, wife, brother, or other beneficiaries. It is not a license to help oneself to other's property.

ALSystems
01-27-2011, 1:04 AM
You could do an internet search of the serial numbers to get an ideal of when these guns were manufactured. You could determine if the original owner legally was supposed to register in CA.

its mcgavin son
01-27-2011, 2:26 AM
CGF Wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration)





ETA:

There is nothing illegal about owning an unregistered handgun but if your father would still like to do so then simply fill out the Voluntary Firearm Ownership Record (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf) form.

Great information. Thank you for that

The Director
01-27-2011, 7:39 AM
Gimme a break, people. If this guy was so concerned about his property, he wouldn't have left it. Keep it until you get a call from the property manager saying someone is looking for the guns.

You're doing better by keeping them safe for the "owner" than leaving them in an abandoned unit, giving them to the cops, or turning them into a gun buy back.

Nothing wrong at all so long a you are willing to return them if a former owner pops up.

Don't abuse them and think of yourself as a steward. Wait another year then forget about it.