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View Full Version : Forging ahead: communicating OLL's to the younger generation with Youtube/whatnot


grammaton76
08-23-2006, 2:11 PM
So, I came up with this thought last night, but figured it needed its own thread over here.

It may be better suited in general, but the intention is grassroots campaigning, so it has political elements.

Arguably, the best way to reach the 18-25 crowd now is through Youtube and Myspace. That's one of the age demographics where we have a LOT of interest (which is currently channeled through airsoft, paintball, etc) but little actual participation. This is mostly because we don't gravitate in the same areas.

To penetrate into the younger demographic, right now our best card is the off-list lowers. We need to put together something either funny or with "dayum" potential, on video, and upload it to youtube. Something that one of us can produce, we can upload to youtube, and young folks in CA will watch, and send to other young folks in CA. Contact information should be provided to these folks.

In order to do this, we need a few things: decent video equipment, a script with a compelling 'hook' to make it buzz-worthy, and actors who are compelling to that age generation. Cute girls, stylish guys, that kind of thing, as main characters. Most of us don't fit the bill, but some of us might - or some of us may have good looking early-20s kids who do.

Currently, the best script idea I have, is:

Cop car pulls up to a house. My roomie's police surplus Crown Vic would work fine for that.

COP #1: "Open up, we've got reports of assault rifles on the premises!"
COP #2: "You're looking at some serious time if the reports are right!"

[GUY opens door.]
GUY: "Sure, come on in. What did you want to see?"

COP #1: "Well, we've had reports that there are AR-15 and AK-47 rifles here. Either you can bring them out, or we can come back with a search warrant."

GUY: "Oh, THAT'S what this is about? Dude - they're legal! Check this out!"

[COPS follow guy to his gun safe, already unlocked. Guy gestures at the safe and steps back; COP #1 twists the handle with an audible *clunk*. Safe is FILLED with 'dangerous looking' rifles.]

COP #2: "All right, none of these are registered assault weapons?"

GUY: "Of course not, none of them are assault weapons by California law."

COP #1: "We'll just see about that."

[COP #1 reaches into the safe and pulls out an M4gery. He CLEARS THE ACTION, then looks at it.]

COP #1: "This rifle has a pistol grip, collapsible stock, and a flash hider! What do you mean this isn't an assault rifle?"

GUY: "Try and release the magazine."

[COP #1 tries to, he's pushing on a SPORTING CONVERSION allen head]

COP #1: "Uh... it's stuck."

GUY: "It's fixed in place, in accordance with California law. None of the 'features' you just named apply to this rifle, because it doesn't have a detachable magazine."

[COP #1's expression shifts slightly as he looks at the rifle. COP #2 starts looking at the SAFE.]

COP #1: "That's pretty neat, actually - the PD won't let me have one myself."

COP #2: "So your magazine isn't removable on that one, but what about THIS one?"

[COP #2 removes a no-evil-features rifle from the SAFE. He beams with joy - he's got his mark.]

GUY: "Show me what prohibited assault weapon features are on that rifle."

[COP #2 looks the rifle up and down, taps on the MONSTERMAN grip curiously]

COP #2: "...nothing. This isn't a pistol grip, is it?"

GUY: "Precisely. And if you have pre-ban full capacity magazines, like me, you can use those in that rifle."
[GUY points at a USGI 30rd magazine on top of the safe]

[COP #2 breaks out into a big smile!]

COP #2: "Ya know, I've got a bunch of those left over from when I sold my last AR."

COP #1: "Ya know, we came here expecting assault weapons, but now I want one of these things myself. Where should we read up on it?"

GUY: "Hit http://www.calguns.net/ for more information. Anyone 18 years or older can legally purchase these rifles now, but that could get limited any time now."

Someone else can probably interject some real 'hook' there, but I'm hoping this will be much like the time I posted the text for the AR-15 flier... some talented folks grab onto it, refine it, and then we wind up with a good product in short order.

chiefcrash
08-23-2006, 2:22 PM
don't forget to throw something in for the 10 round mags in 30 round mag bodies!

grammaton76
08-23-2006, 2:26 PM
don't forget to throw something in for the 10 round mags in 30 round mag bodies!

I think the main idea would be to first have a 'splash' video - one which gets the concept out there that you can legally have AR-15's and AK's.

Then, follow-up videos can cover specific things, such as the PTR-91, maybe differences in the receiver types, and sure, the 30rd mag bodies.

And then one video in the series has to finish up with Hector at CWS holding that civvie P-90 of his, grinning big, and saying: "Coming soon, to a state near you, soon as someone figures out how to California-ize it!"

The Soup Nazi
08-23-2006, 2:26 PM
You mean people with my looks? (I don't look like a fob except when I'm shooting, can't spike the hair otherwise it'll get in the way of wearing muffs.) Pretty funny idea, seems just a LITTLE cheesy to me but thats because I already have the low down on the gun movement. What works for me though is making myself known as the gun nut among my fellow peers. Pretty much all of my friends are turned towards our side since I keep pushing em to see if they can get into firearms. I've actually got a few friends who do enjoy firearms, and I've got even closer friends who'd love to but have parents who won't let them.

In my classes, I'm pretty much known as the "Gun guy", I offer technical specifications, history, and occasional rantings about the state's laws in class. The reason I don't try to make it a secret is that I do very well academically, usually the top or upper end of the class, so it kind of makes it aware to my classmates that "smart" people get into shooting and not just rednecks or hill billies.

May take range trips with various people to really convince them, but at least I've managed to sway them to vote in our favor in the future. I think its more about exposing them to guns and showing how cool it is compared to shoot in real life compared to just point and click in Counterstrike Source.

Stanze
08-23-2006, 2:54 PM
IMO, this is a bad idea, because it's going to send all kinds of idiots to calguns.net(OLL business is not for the "dayum" crowd, it's for someone that is serious about reading, understanding and following the current laws) and as the laws change, the video stays the same(I hear there's way's of downloading video from youtube and myspace)...some poor schmuck can get bad info in the future who happens upon this video(concept).

My .02.

grammaton76
08-23-2006, 3:17 PM
IMO, this is a bad idea, because it's going to send all kinds of idiots to calguns.net(OLL business is not for the "dayum" crowd, it's for someone that is serious about reading, understanding and following the current laws)

You do have a point there. I've since realized that a better solution than linking to calguns, would be to set up an OLL-education "micro-site". No forum, etc, just examples of legal configurations and illegal configurations, and links to some complying vendors.

and as the laws change, the video stays the same(I hear there's way's of downloading video from youtube and myspace)...some poor schmuck can get bad info in the future who happens upon this video(concept).

This is true. Perhaps we should focus on gripless (which CA has smiled upon) and leave off pinned...

bwiese
08-23-2006, 3:33 PM
Fundamentally flawed because you've started with the premise that you should let a friggin' cop in your house and try to 'negotiate' or 'demonstrate' your compliance. NEVER DO THIS.

The first thing you do when a cop asks to come in your house: JUST SAY NO. Advise that you appreciate your 4th amendment rights and do not intend to surrender them.

Ask if he has a warrant or under arrest. If he says he can get one, tell him to go do so. If he cannot, tell him to have a good day/afternoon/night.

If the cop asks you to come outside, do not do so - ask if you are under arrest.

BTW The tape recorder should be rolling the moment you know it's law enforcement.

Ford8N
08-23-2006, 3:40 PM
Fundamentally flawed because you've started with the premise that you should let a friggin' cop in your house and try to 'negotiate' or 'demonstrate' your compliance. NEVER DO THIS.

The first thing you do when a cop asks to come in your house: JUST SAY NO. Advise that you appreciate your 4th amendment rights and do not intend to surrender them.

Ask if he has a warrant or under arrest. If he says he can get one, tell him to go do so. If he cannot, tell him to have a good day/afternoon/night.

If the cop asks you to come outside, do not do so - ask if you are under arrest.

BTW The tape recorder should be rolling the moment you know it's law enforcement.

Good advice.

grammaton76
08-23-2006, 3:59 PM
Fundamentally flawed because you've started with the premise that you should let a friggin' cop in your house and try to 'negotiate' or 'demonstrate' your compliance. NEVER DO THIS.

This is true - I went with the house setting since, well, it's readily available.

Perhaps a shooting range setting would be better, if filming at a friendly range after hours? Scenario: cops see rifles, think they've got an AW bust.

bwiese
08-23-2006, 4:04 PM
This is true - I went with the house setting since, well, it's readily available.

Perhaps a shooting range setting would be better, if filming at a friendly range after hours? Scenario: cops see rifles, think they've got an AW bust.


Most people convict themselves talking to cops/LEO/DA. They don't have the verbal ability to spar with these folks and dig themselves into a hole, giving facts that can be taken out of context, etc.

The only thing one should say in this situation: "This is a legal rifle. It is not banned on the Roberti-Roos or Kasler lists in Calif code of Regulation. It does not have a configuration described by PC 12276.1 as it has a fixed 10rd magazine [or does not have 12276.1 characteristic features if gripless]. This rifle was lawfully purchased and assembled and maintained and used, and no 12280 violation is possible." That's all you say.

The best thing to do is shut up, even if you get arrested. Nothing wrong with being arrested, it's being convicted that's the real problem.

PIRATE14
08-23-2006, 4:05 PM
Who's gonna play that asian guy.........:D

Sounds like fun to me...........

grammaton76
08-23-2006, 4:17 PM
*grin* Amusing, but I think we should probably avoid portraying anyone in the DOJ or whatnot. It's outside the scope of what we're trying to accomplish here, which, specifically, is educating the 18-25 demographic. Bear in mind, guys, that I'm big on outreach to the uneducated. My last such project was the flier, and that's posted at various shooting ranges and carried by a few Calgunners in their range bags. :)

On a side note, I just found out that a little gem of a domain was unregistered:

http://notillegalyet.com/

I thought of trying "wereallgoingtojail.com", but you can't have apostrophes in domain names and it'd just look stupid without 'em.

It's registered now, and I'll be tossing up some pics of legal rifle configurations on it (as well as some pics of illegal ones garnered from the web, with big friendly X's on them). As folks in this thread have astutely observed, pointing Youtube idiots at Calguns might not be such a great idea. But pointing them at a splash site that showcases LEGAL configurations, isn't such a bad one.

Bill: You've got some good points regarding LE, but bear in mind that we're NOT talking about how to handle an LE encounter. What we're talking about is how best to design an educational video to get some information - at least plant the meme that you can have a legally-complaint version of an AR in CA - out to folks who presently think Counterstrike is the only place you can fire an AR in CA.

Since it seems you have other ideas in casting, I'd be interested in knowing if you have some alternatives to depicting an LEO interaction. I think the videos would need to depict SOME kind of interaction with a 'disbeliever', simply because that's where MOST people will be coming from when they look at OLL's - and it provides a natural vehicle for stating the contrary point of view.

MisterDudeManGuy
08-23-2006, 5:10 PM
Outreach is a good idea, but it is probably best in a one-on-one situation. I talk Garands and AR's at the range with whatever shooters I talk with. I tend to be friendly with the ones that aren't acting irresponsible. I get a muzzle flash from someone and they're off my list. We all know what a responsible shooter looks like.

IMO there's a lot of folks out there that think AR/AK series are illegal, and that's a good thing. A lot of them could be propelled into action because of a video and the 'fringe' nature of OLL - having something that 'looks' illegal for the sake of thumbing their noses at the law and acting cool. Active rifle enthusiasts are less likely to be a problem since they are already handling firearms, and newbies that are guided in by the more experienced are being taught. Newbies with no understanding of the responsibility that see a video and step into action with no guidance are a potential problem.

All it takes is an incident or two of less responsible folks acting out on impulse and you can kiss the whole AW/OLL thing goodbye. Anti-gun legislation is fueled by an emotional response to a percieved threat by people who expect the government to protect them. After that it has a life of its' own, logic or reason be damned. Hey, let's get a few concerned moms in Sacto after seeing their kids watching AW adverts on MySpace.

There is a huge difference between outreach and simple publicity. The only reason I mention this is because there has not been ONE active shooter that wasn't popping a woodie over my Imbel FAL. Gotta have one. NOW! Imagine that reaction multipled over a few thousand hits an hour. I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing without some guidance.

Of course, just my opinion.

WokMaster1
08-23-2006, 5:37 PM
We have built a pretty good relationship with the NRA. We have found out that they are doing a lot more than what we were thinking. They have experience doing educational videos (Eddie Eagle). Maybe we can look into it. Thay have all the legalities down so if anyone can put together a good one, it's them.

Imagine showing an ad during prime time talking about owning OLL AR-15s.
Something along the line of the state gov't banned honest, good citizens from owning AR-15s. But there is a legal way, 20,000 receivers have already been legally purchased. blah blah blah, you know the story.

That will really open up a big can of worms. Good or bad? It will definitely put someone in SAC in some hot water. Anti gunners will be screaming for action. Sales will soar again. They will be forced to make a decision under pressure so the only likely path is to list them by make & model & thus requiring a registration period to stop the madness.

Good or bad? I don't know but it could happen. I'm all ears.

The Soup Nazi
08-23-2006, 5:44 PM
The real solution is to take as many people shooting as possible, especially teenagers. We like things that go boom. Most of the people in my age only know guns from playing video games. Take em to the range and they'll want to keep shooting the real thing. I sure as hell thinking firing a semi automatic SKS beats point and click rocket launcher or machine gun in any video game.

grammaton76
08-23-2006, 5:50 PM
I think you've found a great way to reach that demographic, but the video can be a lot simpler. Sometimes just stating the obvious is enough. Don't make it too complex. This is gurillia and viral marketing and can have many facets.

True.

A good starting video would be along the lines of the faq. Start off with a statment that you are going to show how to build a CA legal AR-15. Then show what a lower is, and how to buy one legaly.

Sounds like 'classroom' instructional type stuff, which is good to have. However, it doesn't have the viral punch of a short story/whatnot. I'm thinking that while this would be a good follow-up video (actually filmed first, but the first video links to it at the end), it's not likely to have the viral penetration of a splashy vid with a storyline. For every one potential new OLL convert out there, there will probably be ten people looking at it out of mild curiousity or outright "look at these idiots" sentiment. Which is fine, because when a video hits a million people, ten percent is a LOT of interest. Another reason I don't plan on linking it to Calguns, as that 90% may want to show up here and hassle us.

Next show how to fix a ten round mag and talk about the necessity of this step. Now show them what fun bling (not evil features) they can ad once the mag is fixed. Then show how you load a built up pinned mag rifle, and end with some range video. Don't get to complex...think OVERVIEW.

As another member pointed out earlier, pinned mags are in controversy right now, and videos more or less live forever on the internet. Should the DOJ update their definitions, it'd be possible for someone to go off of the video, rely on information which was legally correct at the time, and build an illegal rifle with it. So, rather than get into "check the DOJ to see if they've updated the definitions yet" disclaimer, I think it's easier to focus primarily on gripless builds. Another video which MENTIONS pinned builds might be a good add for later on, but I think OLL's themselves have enough splash power, even in a gripless configuration, to carry the initial video and drive viewership.

Point them to a site to get the full details.

Right, that's the premise behind setting up the accompanying site.

BTW, I think a OLL promotion site is a great idea, as it gives a focused resource for newbies to find info. Sure, it's all here if you read the threads, but the whole point is that you are trying to reach people who haven't found cal guns. The easier you make it for people, the more likely they are to take action on it.

Right... I'm actually not even planning on linking to Calguns or other forums, just due to the number of turkeys this sort of thing is likely to draw. I figure that a site giving folks a fair overview will provide enough knowledge that if they're smart, they'll know what to look for in Google from there on out. Calguns is pretty easy to find for anyone with an IQ around 100, if they have any determination.

Go for something like caar15.com....something that simply states the what the site is about.No need to add the fear that comes witl the word illegal.

Problem with something like that, is folks would probably type ar15.com in and get the wrong thing. :)

I think notillegalyet.com has the necessary element of being easily remembered, even if you just hear it in the context of a conversation.

Whatever you do, doing something is better than nothing!

True. That's the premise I'm operating under...

grammaton76
08-23-2006, 5:56 PM
Imagine showing an ad during prime time talking about owning OLL AR-15s.
Something along the line of the state gov't banned honest, good citizens from owning AR-15s. But there is a legal way, 20,000 receivers have already been legally purchased. blah blah blah, you know the story.

Well, I believe that route has been attempted, and it didn't do much.

However, if a properly designed viral marketing campaign gets kicked out the door and gains popularity, it MAY get a mention or two in the news. At that point, it's prime time.

Remember, we're NOT bucking for registration here. We're trying to increase public awareness of california-legal AR's, and the more AR owners we have, the more people are going to realize that California's assault weapons ban is cosmetic and provides NO real benefit to Californians.

That means signatures for RKBA.

That means more people making informed voting choices, if we ever get a measure to overturn the AWB onto the ballot.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not looking to get my rifles listed. Properly administered viral marketing just happens to have the potential to convert more over to our side, and that's a Very Good Thing (tm).

One of the biggest variables that the OLL issue has raised, is that California's been gun-starved for so long that plenty of people have misconceptions of what's legal and what isn't. Plenty of 20something guys who would otherwise buy guns, don't because they think all of the "cool ones" are already banned. OLL's have the potential to keep at least half of those guys happy, and if an OLL is the gateway to full on normal gun ownership, then I say push the hell out of 'em! :)

MisterDudeManGuy
08-23-2006, 6:34 PM
Just a matter of time before it happens. We can't stop the idiots. All we can try and do is great as many legal responsible OLL owners as we can. If we hide our legal guns in a closet, no one will see them. We need to promote the sport as a whole, and if we always do it responsibily and respectfully we will gain a lot of new participants.

You are right - no stopping the idiots. I don't hide one bit and I don't think any law-abiding gun owner should either. But I do watch the company I keep.

There is a difference between outreach and promotion. If outreach is the goal - to get more people involved in a constructive way, then the one-on-one approach is the ticket. I do it every week. This is best because the issues involved are more complex than can be explained in a one minute video. We've been studying for a while, and few of the issues are crystal clear, even to the educated.

If simple promotion is the goal, just put the described video on public access cable. The results from the two different approaches will be very different. If the feeling is that a voting majority in California will back the OLL cause, and potentially the repeal of the AW ban, then they should go for it. Public promotion is the way to get the news out to the uneducated masses. I do not think the public is likely to back the OLL cause.

IMO, we will get more flak from waking up the people who won the battle the first time - and we shouldn't forget for a minute who won. It wasn't right or justice or reason, it was emotion and a will to push for bad protectionist law. It appears that they won the public's heart the last time (think of the children), and an advert showing seemingly illegal weapons that thwart law enforcement's attempts to reel them in is a perfect advert for the 'other' side of the argument. What would the uneducated think? What would some kids' mom think? An AW that is legal - Oh My God! We better get more gun control law on the books or vote for someone who will. That will be the 'other' side's answer to the problem.

The advert you probably will see on the TV is the 'other' sides' advert. Two obvious gang bangers sitting watching TV while polishing the AR's. Cops come by. Door opens. "Hey, tough sh*t pigs, they're legal." It seems (on the surface) that there is a lot more to lose from a media blitz than to gain.

Stanze
08-23-2006, 10:47 PM
FYI, there's already talk on Myspace about the OLL movement.

http://groups.myspace.com/ar15

Click on "View All Topics".

Particularly this thread: http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=11205047&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=100346036&Mytoken=63719E69-12B5-4B55-A3A4F7E08EF373AA593168984

artherd
08-23-2006, 11:19 PM
I vote Cameron Diaz for AM.

bwiese
08-23-2006, 11:32 PM
I vote Cameron Diaz for AM.

Why, is she a jogger/runner?

1911_sfca
08-24-2006, 12:19 AM
I like your idea, Grammaton.

Randomebayguy
08-24-2006, 9:22 AM
out to folks who presently think Counterstrike is the only place you can fire an AR in CA.

Idea there perhaps? make a video that starts out in a round of counterstrike shooting all sorts of AR varients and then fades to a chick shooting an OLL at a local range.. simple, short and prolly clicks with a decent amount of the target demographic (video games, guns, girls)

i have all sorts of indie filmaker friends, i know at least some of them are into guns. one did a 'girls with assault weapons' calendar (with some hot 20 sumthing chicks, might post some up here one of these days, hehe) so they might be down as well.

/random

grammaton76
08-24-2006, 2:07 PM
Idea there perhaps? make a video that starts out in a round of counterstrike shooting all sorts of AR varients and then fades to a chick shooting an OLL at a local range.. simple, short and prolly clicks with a decent amount of the target demographic (video games, guns, girls)

i have all sorts of indie filmaker friends, i know at least some of them are into guns. one did a 'girls with assault weapons' calendar (with some hot 20 sumthing chicks, might post some up here one of these days, hehe) so they might be down as well.

Excellent. Perhaps you could ping some of them, see if they're interested in the concept? I don't mind if they want to just take over the project.

Side note, I find it hilarious that no one in that myspace thread has mentioned drop-mag featureless rifles! Guys over there are saying they won't touch a pinned mag rifle, but ... erm, they don't have to go that route.

I guess I'll have to set up a *sigh* myspace account tonight to correct that...