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atlas
08-22-2006, 10:25 PM
++++++++++++++

blkA4alb
08-22-2006, 10:48 PM
Yes, to own a hangun you need the HSC. Whether it is given to you or you buy it.

atlas
08-22-2006, 11:37 PM
any chance you can show point me to some bit of regulation or law text that states this?

gotgunz
08-22-2006, 11:41 PM
Yes, to own a hangun you need the HSC. Whether it is given to you or you buy it.

Ugh???????? WRONG!

You do not need a HSC for an "intra-familiar" transfer (father to son, etc.).

Nor do you have to do the transfer through a FFL. You only need to download the form from DOJ, fill it out and send in a check for $19.00 for 1 or more handguns.
They will run a check on you to make sure you are eligible to possess a firearm and send a letter back to you once this is complete. Mine took exactly 9 days to get back from them (In July) for three handguns.

As copied directly from the DOJ FAQ page.

"Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b). (PC section 12076(c)) "

The link!
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf

atlas
08-22-2006, 11:50 PM
Just to be clear, you accomplished this without an HSC with no complaint from the people you sent the form to?

gotgunz
08-23-2006, 12:02 AM
Allow me to make this perfectly clear..

I HAVE NEVER HAD AN 'HSC' OF ANY TYPE FROM ANY STATE!

I have not purchased a 'new' handgun which required this since before it was required (make sense?).

I listed 3 handguns, filled out the form completely, enclosed a check for $19 and mailed them to Sacto on 6/20/06 (sorry, thought it was July). I received the reply letters (all together in same envelope) on 6/30/06 and they were dated 6/28/06. All signed by the program manager for the Firearms Div.
All in all, I was very pleased with the speed and efficiency in this matter.
I now have a letter for each gun showing the serial numbers, make & model as well as caliber stating that they are mine and entered into the "Automated Firearms System" under my name & address.
The "funny" part is they state that they ran a firarms eligibility check on me but it only took a total of 10 days including mailing time both ways to get the response.
Proves that the check doesnt take as long as they would have you to believe.
This was painless and very easy. I would suggest doing as many together as possible at the same time. It is $19.00 for 1 or more guns; each time you do this.

Your results may vary.

Silverback
08-23-2006, 1:30 AM
Do I need a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) if I am receiving a handgun from my mother or father?


Yes. Prior to taking possession of the handgun, you must have a valid Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC). You must also report the transfer to DOJ, pursuant to Penal Code section 12078(c)(2)(A), within 30 days of the transfer. You may obtain Form FD4544A (PDF) for this purpose on this web site.

This is item #13 from the Web page.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/hscfaqs.htm#a14

atlas
08-23-2006, 1:42 AM
Alright. That is good to know. I'll make sure to take heed of this knowledge.

artherd
08-23-2006, 2:02 AM
To the best of my knowledge: you do need an HSC, there is no exemption in the statute for intra-familial transfer.

DOJ can say or do whatever they want, they can break the law at will (and have infact done so, see SKS buy-back fiasco.) and it does not make it correct.

Here it is, plain as day:
Source: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm
CPC 12078 <snip...>
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and both (Ben's comments: now that's funny!) of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a basic firearms safety certificate. If taking possession on or after January 1, 2003, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

tacosauce
08-23-2006, 6:21 AM
What happens if you don't have an HSC during this transfer?

artherd
08-23-2006, 9:59 AM
What happens if you don't have an HSC during this transfer?

Well let's see, CPC 12072 (d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

CPC 12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. <snip>
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.


OK we have a penalty for a dealer, but there are no dealers here. So what we're looking at instead is an illegal PPT, just like you sold the gun on the street for $100bux to some crack dealer.

Misdomenor territory (potentially felony if they turn out to be a prohibited person.)

Get that HSC stat.

blkA4alb
08-23-2006, 10:12 AM
Ugh???????? WRONG!

You do not need a HSC for an "intra-familiar" transfer (father to son, etc.).


Maybe you ought to learn the laws before you try and educate me on them :rolleyes: .

rkt88edmo
08-23-2006, 11:06 AM
What happens if you don't have an HSC during this transfer?

A giant anvil falls out of the sky on your head. ;)

The DOJ has no idea who has an HSC and who doesn't unless they are looking at an FFLs paperwork which will have the HSC card number recorded. Since the intra-family did not use an FFL, and there is no place on the voluntary form to add that information, it doesn't appear.

But as pointed out above, one could imagine a bizarre set of circumstances under which they could certainly ask you to produce your dated HSC card and match it to your intra-family form. Since we know the DOJ often does bizarre things you might consider such a situation likely.

But what if it has been over five years and your HSC expired and you threw it away and you don't remember who issued it? what if? what if?

ja391
08-23-2006, 2:26 PM
The problem is finding a willing FFL to allow you to take the HSC test at 18. Most say something like "you don't need the HSC since it's for buying handguns, and you're not 21, so we can't give you the test." Apparently, most don't know about the intra-familiar transfer, and that the mimimum age to receive a HSC is 18 NOT 21.

thedrickel
08-23-2006, 2:27 PM
But this got me thinking: I want to give OLLs to my brother and dad. I know I can give my dad one legally w/o a problem, as parent/child long gun transfers are exempt from DROS. But if I gave it straight to my brother, it is my understanding that he would have to DROS it. Now what if I give it to my father, and then HE gives it to his child? Sounds pretty kosher to me, any thoughts?

rkt88edmo
08-23-2006, 2:37 PM
But this got me thinking: I want to give OLLs to my brother and dad. I know I can give my dad one legally w/o a problem, as parent/child long gun transfers are exempt from DROS. But if I gave it straight to my brother, it is my understanding that he would have to DROS it. Now what if I give it to my father, and then HE gives it to his child? Sounds pretty kosher to me, any thoughts?

That works, but if you reg it each time you are now out 38$ instead of the PPT for 35$, plus any possible implications of an illegal transfer.

blkA4alb
08-23-2006, 2:39 PM
That works, but if you reg it each time you are now out 38$ instead of the PPT for 35$, plus any possible implications of an illegal transfer.
Theres nothing illegal about it to be implicated with.

thedrickel
08-23-2006, 2:58 PM
That works, but if you reg it each time you are now out 38$ instead of the PPT for 35$, plus any possible implications of an illegal transfer.

Why would I have to reg it? It's a long gun, not a hand gun.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-23-2006, 11:01 PM
Why would I have to reg it? It's a long gun, not a hand gun.


You are correct. No registration or $19 fee for long guns. And it can work for uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces and nephews if your grandparent is alive and in California.

But only if your intent is to give the long gun to your spouse, parent, grandparent, child or grandchild. If they decide later to give the same long gun to their spouse, parent, grandparent, child or grandchild, you have nothing to do with it.

artherd
08-23-2006, 11:07 PM
The problem is finding a willing FFL to allow you to take the HSC test at 18. Most say something like "you don't need the HSC since it's for buying handguns, and you're not 21, so we can't give you the test." Apparently, most don't know about the intra-familiar transfer, and that the mimimum age to receive a HSC is 18 NOT 21.
Get resourseful, make some calls. Stay legal.

AJD
08-24-2006, 4:03 PM
What happens if your parent dies before giving you his guns? For example, my dad passed away 2 years ago and he left behind some handguns. It seems like I couldn't just fill out the intra-familial form because I didn't take possession from him while he was alive and that didn't happen within 30 days. So who rightfully owns the guns now? Do they belong to my mother because she is entitled to his estate? If she owns the guns or is entitled to them does she have to let the DOJ know? And then can she give them to me?

CTT2
08-25-2006, 2:38 AM
Yes she still has to fill the intrafamilia transfer form.

tenpercentfirearms
08-25-2006, 5:57 AM
I am a FFL and I just researched this handgun to an under 21 thing a month ago. It is true, you can transfer a handgun to your under 21 spawn as long as that under 21 spawn has a valid HSC and thanks to Artherd for clearing this up with the penal code.

I personally don't care who wants to take the HSC, I will give it to them. I gave it to this 20 year old the other day and his mother just for this reason and they ended up not coming back in and buying the handgun yet. No big deal to me. I still got the $10 out of each of them and I don't see what the big deal is. The other gun shops in Kern County will not give an HSC to anyone not buying a gun from them. That just doesn't make sense.

I can't wait until I become a big time gun shop with outrageous prices and horrible customer service. I can't wait to get that feeling that I own gun owners and they are subject to my beck and call. :rolleyes:

psssniper
08-25-2006, 6:21 AM
So heres a silly question. Can a child give a gun, either a rifle or handgun, to an adult? Lets say my kid lives in another state but wants to give me a certain rifle. I assume that as long as its legal here in Ca that she can give it to me.

Now what about a handgun. Would it have to be on the DOJ approved list or could it, like the PPT scenario, be any old handgun?

ja391
08-25-2006, 2:12 PM
I am a FFL and I just researched this handgun to an under 21 thing a month ago. It is true, you can transfer a handgun to your under

I personally don't care who wants to take the HSC, I will give it to them.


I think I might head over there to take an HSC from you sometime.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-25-2006, 10:57 PM
So heres a silly question. Can a child give a gun, either a rifle or handgun, to an adult? Lets say my kid lives in another state but wants to give me a certain rifle. I assume that as long as its legal here in Ca that she can give it to me.

The grandparent/parent/child/spouse exemption only applies if both parties are residents of California. For interstate transfers Federal law applies, and Federal law requires the transfer to go through an FFL and has no exception for family transfers.

Federal law does have an exception for interstate transfers of firearms if they are from the estate of somebody who has died. So if a grandparent/parent/child/spouse lived in another state and then died, the transfer would be exempt from both Federal and California restrictions, Federal because of the death and California because of the family relationship.

atlas
08-25-2006, 11:40 PM
can you point me to the laws that talk about this?

Mssr. Eleganté
08-26-2006, 2:04 AM
can you point me to the laws that talk about this?

Do you want to see the laws that apply to the previous post or another specific part of this thread or all of the laws that apply to everything discussed in this thread?

atlas
08-26-2006, 2:58 AM
++++++++++++++++++

Mssr. Eleganté
08-26-2006, 3:41 AM
OK, the section of the California Penal Code that allows "family" transfers without going through an FFL is 12078(c)...

12078(c)
(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and both of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a basic firearms safety certificate. If taking possession on or after January 1, 2003, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

And for the Federal law, check out USC 922(a) (3) and (5)...

§ 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful --
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a
place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence

And also see CFR Sections 478.29 and 478.30...

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful
for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State;

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or
other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or
possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence

Mssr. Eleganté
08-26-2006, 1:35 PM
There seems to be nothing in the california law that says a father from out of state cannot give his son a handgun, but federal laws say he has to ship it to an FFL who then could release it to the son and have him fill out the familial transfer form?

The California FFL is going to have to run the transfer just like a regular purchase from out of state, so it would be treated just like a regular dealer sale. And the Dealer can charge as much as he wants for this.

Once you involve a California FFL Dealer, they have to follow all of the California Dealer transfer rules.