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wash
01-23-2011, 4:58 PM
Yesterday I ran in to SJgunguy at a gun shop and he mentioned making extra long barrels for single shot roster exempt handgun sales.

Inspiration struck me and I suggested using .22lr barrel liner to make conversion barrels, a sub calliber insert that sticks out to make the required length.

That idea was shot down because he thought the DROS software needed to show the same caliber as the original design.

That seems wrong to me, that would make it illegal to import a rostered 1911 if it has a Marvell .22lr conversion and is set up as a single shot.

That seems like a legal transaction but evidently the DROS software does not allow that or else the way to do that is unclear.

I don't want to tell the guy he's wrong but I think it would be good if single shot conversions could be made with cheap barrel liners.

Of course defeating the roster in the PeŮa case would be better but let's push the DROS software as far as we can while we still have that limitation.

If anyone can cite code that would make a sub-caliber single shot conversion illegal, please cite it here. If it's within the exemption, maybe it's a good underground regulation to go after or something to teach to FFLs who want to do conversions cheaper.

wildhawker
01-23-2011, 5:15 PM
There is no caliber requirement.

ke6guj
01-23-2011, 5:34 PM
no caliber requirement that it stay the same. more importantly, after being remanufactured by that 07FFL, it wouldn't even the same brand it was before (unless he had a variance). for instance, if the OP was an FFL and took a off-list Kimber 1911 and single-shotted it with a .22lr upper, ATF says that he is the manufacturer and must have an 07FFL to do that. He must engrave his name, city, state on the firearm. AFAIK, it would then be 4473/DROS'ed out of his book as a Wash 1911, not a Kimber 1911.

wildhawker
01-23-2011, 5:47 PM
Jack, quick ask: in what letter did ATF decide that FF01 is for sales only?

wash
01-23-2011, 5:56 PM
I don't get that. There is no manufacturing really, just add a barrel insert, mag lock and sled for the conversion.

I only mentioned the Marvel conversion because it should be legal to transfer a 1911 as a .22lr without going through an 07FFL or marking anything. I don't think the single shot conversions being sold are re-marked. Maybe there is some rule for FFLs changing things but it seems like that type of conversion should be ok because a gun owner could buy a Marvel conversion and slap it on without any paperwork.

ke6guj
01-23-2011, 6:01 PM
I would point to the ATF manufacturing FAQ:

Q: May a person engage in gunsmithing under a dealer’s license (type 01), or do gunsmiths need to be licensed as “manufacturers” of firearms?
Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them, 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms.

Below are examples of operations performed on firearms and guidance as to whether or not such operations would be considered manufacturing under the Gun Control Act (GCA). These examples do not address the question of whether the operations are considered manufacturing for purposes of determining excise tax. Any questions concerning the payment of excise tax should be directed to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, U.S. Department of the Treasury.

1.A company produces a quantity of firearm frames or receivers for sale to customers who will assemble firearms.

The company is engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

2.A company produces frames or receivers for another company that assembles and sells the firearms.

Both companies are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and each should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

3.A company provides frames to a subcontractor company that performs machining operations on the frames and returns the frames to the original company which assembles and sells the completed firearms.

Both companies are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as manufacturers of firearms.

4.A company produces barrels for firearms and sells the barrels to another company that assembles and sells complete firearms.

Because barrels are not firearms, the company that manufactures the barrels is not a manufacturer of firearms. The company that assembles and sells the firearms should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

5.A company receives firearm frames from individual customers, attaches stocks and barrels and returns the firearms to the customers for the customers' personal use.

The operations performed on the firearms were not for the purpose of sale or distribution. The company should be licensed as a dealer or gunsmith, not as a manufacturer of firearms.

6.A company acquires one receiver, assembles one firearm, and sells the firearm.

The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

7.An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution.

The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

8.A gunsmith regularly buys military type firearms, Mausers etc., and ‚€œsporterizes‚€Ě them for resale.

The gunsmith is in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer.

9.A gunsmith buys semiautomatic pistols or revolvers and modifies the slides to accept new Style f sights. The sights are not usually sold with these firearms and do not attach to the existing mounting openings.

The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

10.A gunsmith buys government model pistols and installs ‚€œdrop-in‚€Ě precision trigger parts or other ‚€œdrop-in parts‚€Ě for the purpose of resale.

This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, as the gunsmith is purchasing the firearms, modifying the firearms and selling them. The gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

11.A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles, bends the bolts to accept a scope, and then drills the receivers for a scope base. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale.

This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

12.A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold to the public.

This would be considered manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

13.A company purchases surplus firearms, cleans the firearms then offers them for sale to the public.

The company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

01FFLs that have assembled firearms for sale have gotten their PP's smacked by ATF and told not to do that anymore, IIRC, that happened to Bright Spot. They used to allow people to buy one of BSP's lowers, install their pistol parts onto it and then BSP would DROS it to them as a pistol. ATF put the kabash to that, and it might have been part of the reason for one of BSP's FFL changes in the past.

ke6guj
01-23-2011, 6:06 PM
I don't get that. There is no manufacturing really, just add a barrel insert, mag lock and sled for the conversion.

I only mentioned the Marvel conversion because it should be legal to transfer a 1911 as a .22lr without going through an 07FFL or marking anything. I don't think the single shot conversions being sold are re-marked. Maybe there is some rule for FFLs changing things but it seems like that type of conversion should be ok because a gun owner could buy a Marvel conversion and slap it on without any paperwork.

some 07FFLs are marking, others aren't. those are are are marking on the barrel AFAIK.

ATF allows for some drop-in parts to be swapped without having to be an 07. Would that allow for an 01FFL to drop-in a maglock on a rifle without needing to be an 07, probably yes. would that allow for an 01FFL to drop-in a maglock and sled into an AR-pistol, no other mods, maybe. What about dropping in an extended barrel in addtion to that maglock and sled, I dunno. The point is that this stuff gets into a grey area with ATF and what they allow an 01FFL to do "pre-sale" and what an 07FFL is needed for.

yes, a private party could swap over that .22 upper and no paperwork would be needed, but that is because he isnt an FFL.

bwiese
01-23-2011, 6:09 PM
1. I'll talk with Mark. No restrictions on caliber changes. I think Tim knows.

2. Yes, I have proposed the subcaliber conversion for some time since it
allows ultracheap barrels. However, it can cause grief for, say, 22LR since
that's rimfire not centerfire -and gun may have functional issues unless the
bore/chamber were offset appropriately. So if small caliber conversion were
to be attempted, I'd recommend using a 25ACP chambering.

3. Substantive changes to a gun that is to be sold (i.e., it's not a customer
owned gun that's in the shop for 'smithing) require the dealer to have FFL07 -
certainly barrel length changes, upper changes, caliber changes, action type
changes, etc. all fall into this.

wash
01-23-2011, 6:23 PM
I'm specifically thinking of a barrel insert, like the .22lr conversions for a FAL or G3 and a mag lock. A SLED is just a magazine, it should not be considered gunsmithing or manufacturing.

Since a barrel insert just slides inside the factory barrel, I think it's a stretch to call that gunsmithing.

A mag lock is the most involved change.

This whole argument is retarded but I would like to know where ATF got the power to call adding "drop in" parts manufacturing (as in #10 above).

franklinarmory
01-23-2011, 7:15 PM
As an 07FFL that currently produces AR pistols, I have a few questions for you....

Why exactly are you trying to use a .22LR? Maybe I need to re-read the code, but I don't think that 12133 PC allows dealers to exempt a pistol just because it is a .22LR. (12276/12276.1 does, but that is not the topic.) 12126 simply calls out any firearm capable of being concealed.

The ATF is pretty hard on 01FFLs attaching anything to a firearm prior to sale. After the sale, they can do what ever gunsmithing a customer may want. We all know that 01FFLs can also offer off list firearms to law enforcement. Now, wouldn't it be a conversation piece if a dealer had an off list handgun such as a Gen4 Glock AND a 10" barrel laying next to the pistol on display? Couldn't the dealer build the pistol out as requested by the customer and then transfer it via the exemption covered under 12133???

To dovetail with your comment above, I do not think there is any PC that would preclude the dealer from adding the .22LR per the customer's direction either.

It seems to me that the ATF and Cal-DOJ might not like it, but the bases would be covered.

ke6guj
01-23-2011, 7:23 PM
As an 07FFL that currently produces AR pistols, I have a few questions for you....

Why exactly are you trying to use a .22LR? Maybe I need to re-read the code, but I don't think that 12133 PC allows dealers to exempt a pistol just because it is a .22LR. (12276/12276.1 does, but that is not the topic.) 12126 simply calls out any firearm capable of being concealed. he's just trying to figure out an easier conversion, not that .22lr is exempt.

for instance, have a 8" .25acp barrel sleeve that could be installed into an existing .45ACP barrel to make length.

The ATF is pretty hard on 01FFLs attaching anything to a firearm prior to sale. After the sale, they can do what ever gunsmithing a customer may want. We all know that 01FFLs can also offer off list firearms to law enforcement. Now, wouldn't it be a conversation piece if a dealer had an off list handgun such as a Gen4 Glock AND a 10" barrel laying next to the pistol on display? Couldn't the dealer build the pistol out as requested by the customer and then transfer it via the exemption covered under 12133???
as an 01FFL, probably not.


question for you as an 07 making AR-pistols, you mark them with your name, city, state? what happens in your bound book, logged in an XYZ stripped lower, then noted in the bound book that it was "remanufactured" by you and is now is a "franklin Armory" firearm? Does it get 4473/DROS'ed as a Franklin Armory pistol or as that original XYZ brand?

tonelar
01-23-2011, 10:00 PM
Oh, I get it. Instead of having to buy a longer barrel in the pistol's original caliber or weld on an extension, you use a .22LR insert that sticks extends beyond the original barrel.

Neat idea.

Nor-Cal
01-23-2011, 10:30 PM
The insert seems like a very good idea!

franklinarmory
01-24-2011, 7:06 AM
question for you as an 07 making AR-pistols, you mark them with your name, city, state? what happens in your bound book, logged in an XYZ stripped lower, then noted in the bound book that it was "remanufactured" by you and is now is a "franklin Armory" firearm? Does it get 4473/DROS'ed as a Franklin Armory pistol or as that original XYZ brand?

Yes, all of our rifles, pistols, built lower receivers, and stripped receivers bear our name, city, and state. Our A&D shows "Franklin Armory" when we ship our products and they get DROSed accordingly. Cal-DOJ even has Franklin Armory in their list of companies producing exempted single shot pistols.

wash
01-24-2011, 7:22 AM
Yes, a drop in insert.

I wasn't thinking of AR pistols, I was thinking of non-roster compact semi-auto pistols that are too small for the single shot exemption but with a bore large enough to take an offset .22lr insert.

TripleT
01-24-2011, 8:05 AM
As far as the caliber change issue and what can be dros'd and then changed, there are several on-list handguns that can change caliber with a simple barrel swap, ie Sig P229 in .40 / .357 sig and I have dros'd a used one that had both barrels. The dros software has a field to add "additional caliber". Not sure how that would play, if at all, with the single shot exemption.

franklinarmory
01-24-2011, 9:29 AM
I don't see how it would be an issue to change the caliber, but I do think that you'd either need an 07FFL, or you'd have to perform the work pursuant to a customer's request. If the resulting firearm is exempted by characteristics, you'd think you'd just process the paperwork just like a T/C contender.

ke6guj
01-24-2011, 10:27 AM
Yes, all of our rifles, pistols, built lower receivers, and stripped receivers bear our name, city, and state. Our A&D shows "Franklin Armory" when we ship our products and they get DROSed accordingly. Cal-DOJ even has Franklin Armory in their list of companies producing exempted single shot pistols.thanks for the reply. The reason I ask is someone mentioned that another 07FFL was DROSing remanufactured single-shot Ruger LCPs as Rugers, instead of under their name, and that didn't sound right.