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View Full Version : Replacing old, worn out magazines


Agent Akin
01-23-2011, 1:44 AM
Greetings all!

The guy at this shop I frequent is able to get all sorts of normal capacity magazines because they sell to LEOs all the time.

Now, back in the nineties, I spent a lot of coin buying a lot of magazines, even for weapons I didn't own at the time (or yet, in several cases) but want to get someday... for example, when I finally get an M1A, I'll have plenty of normal magazines for it!

Anyway, most of my magazines are packed away, but the ones that aren't get used a lot, like the ones for my Glocks and ARs.

Fixing the AR mags is easy, you can buy kits for that anywhere... but some of the Glock mags are starting to show their age.

So, I somehow mentioned this to the guy at the shop, and he claims that he can sell me brand new magazines if I bring in my old ones and give them to him, on a one-for-one basis. He says it's legal since I already have the normal magazines, and I'm not increasing my stock of them, just replacing the old ones.

I'd love to get some brand new Glock magazines, and heck, it'd be great to replace some of my normal AR mags with those PMAGs that everyone over in the USA is going on and on about... I'm just wondering if this is a legit deal or not...

Has anyone ever heard about this kind of thing before?

Note that I tried to search for this, so apologies if it's been discussed, but I fear that my search-fu is not up to the task...

Thanks!

Alaric
01-23-2011, 1:57 AM
What you are looking for is a mag rebuild kit.

And no, you don't usually give whoever sells you a rebuild kit the old mag. Unnecessary.

Many reputable online retailers will ship you mags broken down into rebuild kits for a small nominal fee (1-5$ per mag) to replace/rebuild mags you already own. Here's an example: http://www.shootersplus.com/ca_rebuild_kits

Agent Akin
01-23-2011, 2:13 AM
Hmmmmm okay I wasn't familiar with those kind of kits. The AR magazine kits I've seen only have a spring and a follower... it looks like those would include everything, even the body.

If I understand it correctly, based on the warning on the webpage, I wouldn't be able to build the entire kit into a whole magazine without breaking the law. Is there a rule of how much of the old magazine I have to use? What if I only used, say, the little thing that goes between the floor plate and the spring, and all the other parts are the new ones from the kit? Would that be okay?

What would I have to with the old parts? Keep them with me in case I'm at the range and someone shouts OH MY GOD, THOSE ARE BRAND NEW MAGAZINES WITH THE CUT-OUT FOR THE REVERSIBLE MAGAZINE RELEASE! HE COULD NOT HAVE HAD THEM BEFORE THE BAN!!! CALL 911!!!

Actually, I guess that would be a problem even if I went through the shop I was talking about, I'd have brand new magazines that weren't available back in 1999... hmph... is there any kind of Magazine Police that cares about this kind of thing?

tonelar
01-23-2011, 2:40 AM
you can replace as few or as many parts as you want. I have a couple of boxes under the house with the remains of my worn out magazines... mostly cause I can't bear to throw anything away (also I can prolly make 10 rounders out of some of them for my BB equipped carbines).

i bought up all kinds of mags too, as the 90's came to an end and the Cali-ban was looming.

chris
01-23-2011, 6:01 AM
an update there is a new follower that is like Magpul use. it will not tip like the green one that is in the current 30 rd US issue magazine. Brownells has them for 5 bucks for 3. so you could replace that part and have a good magazine. i will be getting some to rebuild my current magazines.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26326/Product/AR_15_M16_GENERATION_III_SELF_LEVELING_FOLLOWERS

devilinblack
01-23-2011, 6:06 AM
New Frontier Armory has Glock mag rebuild kits and they don't feel the need to charge you extra to take them apart. Fast shipping too!

http://www.newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/

NewFrontierArmory
01-23-2011, 6:04 PM
New Frontier Armory has Glock mag rebuild kits and they don't feel the need to charge you extra to take them apart. Fast shipping too!

http://www.newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/

Thanks for the plug! Its the right thing to do, and I know if I was stuck under Cali Law, I would hope someone would do the same for me!

Army
01-23-2011, 7:10 PM
BTW; giving him magazines, and him giving you magazines, has both of you violating the law.

If he is willing to break them down, then selling/giving you all the parts, that will be legal. You have to give him only parts too.

Crom
01-23-2011, 7:33 PM
Get the glock rebuild kits. In a simultaneous action, disassemble the old mag and assemble a new mag using the rebuild kit. Throw the old mag parts in the trash.

Cokebottle
01-23-2011, 7:39 PM
BTW; giving him magazines, and him giving you magazines, has both of you violating the law.
He's an FFL, so he is exempt, both from "Selling", and giving to him would also exempt the OP.

Perfectly legal.

Also perfectly legal:
OP gives the old magazines to a gunsmith to be repaired (and legal for the gunsmith to return them to the OP).
OP buys rebuild kits and does the repairs himself.

devilinblack
01-23-2011, 7:55 PM
Thanks for the plug! Its the right thing to do, and I know if I was stuck under Cali Law, I would hope someone would do the same for me!

Any time! I ordered a couple as a "test" recently and the transaction was as smooth as could be. You also converted me from rebuilding with C-Products mags to the PMags. Many orders to come and the next time I'm driving through to or from SLC I'll be stopping by in person.

Agent Akin
01-23-2011, 8:12 PM
Okay, so if I'm reading this correctly, I can buy a repair kit which consists of all of the parts of a new magazine. Then, I can disassemble an old magazine, and assemble the new parts into a functional magazine, and then dispose of the old parts. Is this correct?

Assuming that is correct, would it also be allowable to purchase PMAGs broken down as a repair kits, and use them to replace some of my older AR Mags?

003
01-23-2011, 8:20 PM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

Here is a copy of the offical DOJ letter relative to this matter.

Crom
01-23-2011, 8:21 PM
Okay, so if I'm reading this correctly, I can buy a repair kit which consists of all of the parts of a new magazine. Then, I can disassemble an old magazine, and assemble the new parts into a functional magazine, and then dispose of the old parts. Is this correct?

Yes. 100% of old parts in the trash, 100% new parts fully assembled in your range bag or wherever and you're good to go.


Assuming that is correct, would it also be allowable to purchase PMAGs broken down as a repair kits, and use them to replace some of my older AR Mags?

Yes. Many vendors in the Market place subforum will ship you rebuild kits.

Agent Akin
01-23-2011, 8:35 PM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

Here is a copy of the offical DOJ letter relative to this matter.

That is EXTREMELY useful! Saved, hardcopy to be carried around in range bag, along with the invoice(s) from my forthcoming repair kits...

Thanks!

Agent Akin
01-23-2011, 8:39 PM
Yes. 100% of old parts in the trash, 100% new parts fully assembled in your range bag or wherever and you're good to go.



Yes. Many vendors in the Market place subforum will ship you rebuild kits.

Thanks!

Cokebottle
01-24-2011, 5:04 PM
Yes. 100% of old parts in the trash,
They don't even have to go in the trash, they simply must remain disassembled unless and until something fails in one of the current mags and it is broken down.

There are some who feel it prudent to keep the old parts as evidence that Pmags or other new mags are indeed replacements, but it is up to the state to prove that you violated the law, and old parts, even if dated pre-2000, are not proof that you did not import them after 2000.
All they do is establish the earliest date that you could have picked up those parts.

stix213
01-24-2011, 5:32 PM
Okay, so if I'm reading this correctly, I can buy a repair kit which consists of all of the parts of a new magazine. Then, I can disassemble an old magazine, and assemble the new parts into a functional magazine, and then dispose of the old parts. Is this correct?

Assuming that is correct, would it also be allowable to purchase PMAGs broken down as a repair kits, and use them to replace some of my older AR Mags?

Some people on this forum believe you can do exactly that, just having the same number of high caps when you are done as when you started, while other people will say at least some of the parts should be compatible and you should take steps as follows:

* Disassemble the old mag
* Reassemble the mag with new parts from your repair kit, but using 1 part from the original mag even if the old part is broken
* Remove the last old part from the assembled mag, and replace with the new part (now you have a mag made from all new parts, but you have in effect incrementally repaired the 1 existing mag and not manufactured a new one - seems a trivial difference but some people think this is very important)

You'll see different opinions thrown around here largely because this law is rarely if ever prosecuted so there is really no case law to advise you by. Good luck finding any case that isn't colored by something else like an illegal AW possession, or being a felon with a gun. Be comfortable with your level of risk, but if you follow the above steps you can certainly argue you have repaired the magazine.

Army
01-24-2011, 6:41 PM
He's an FFL, so he is exempt, both from "Selling", and giving to him would also exempt the OP.

Perfectly legal.

Also perfectly legal:
OP gives the old magazines to a gunsmith to be repaired (and legal for the gunsmith to return them to the OP).
OP buys rebuild kits and does the repairs himself.
And repair is not what the OP said the FFL's plan was.


FFL cannot give/sell him magazines, since as far as we know the OP is not LEO. OP cannot give the FFL magazines if the stated plan is to simply exchange. That would be acquiring new magazines, not repairing old ones.

You are right in what you wrote, but that is not what started this thread.

Cokebottle
01-24-2011, 6:53 PM
FFL cannot give/sell him magazines, since as far as we know the OP is not LEO. OP cannot give the FFL magazines if the stated plan is to simply exchange. That would be acquiring new magazines, not repairing old ones.
But they can.

An FFL is exempt.
It is not illegal to BUY a high cap, it is illegal for a non-exempt person to sell a high cap. An FFL is exempt.
It is not illegal to receive a high cap, it is illegal to give a high cap to a non-exempt person. An FFL is exempt.

CHS
01-24-2011, 6:55 PM
BTW; giving him magazines, and him giving you magazines, has both of you violating the law.

If he is willing to break them down, then selling/giving you all the parts, that will be legal. You have to give him only parts too.

Not really true. The law allows for the transfer of magazines to/from a dealer or gunsmith for the purposes of repair.

So I can legally walk into a shop, say "Hey, these mags are broken. Can you fix them for me?". They can then charge me for the full replacement cost of a magazine, keep my old ones, and replace them with new ones.

This is not a violation of the law. This is an exception written into the law.

Agent Akin
01-24-2011, 7:14 PM
Well, in any event, my plan as of now is to simply purchase repair kits and incrementally repair my old magazines, as described above.

I think, perhaps, when I get some PMAG repair kits, I might repair away everything from the old magazine except for the old spring, which I'm sure will fit inside the PMAG body. Then, twenty-four hours later, I'll note that these repaired magazines don't seem to be quite up to snuff... best replace the spring with these repair springs I have sitting here... heh. As long as I can in good conscious claim I was repairing my old ones with new parts, it's all good, right?

ImPo
01-24-2011, 7:30 PM
How does a post 2000 high capacity repair kit play into this? Wouldn't it be illegal to possess a body with a post 2000 date stamp even if you were using it to rebuild a legally possessed pre-ban magazine?

Cokebottle
01-24-2011, 7:32 PM
How does a post 2000 high capacity repair kit play into this? Wouldn't it be illegal to possess a body with a post 2000 date stamp even if you were using it to rebuild a legally possessed pre-ban magazine?
Perfectly legal.

CHS
01-24-2011, 8:11 PM
How does a post 2000 high capacity repair kit play into this?


It doesn't.


Wouldn't it be illegal to possess a body with a post 2000 date stamp even if you were using it to rebuild a legally possessed pre-ban magazine?

Nope.

Agent Akin
01-31-2011, 10:43 PM
This is only a vaguely related question... but it seems as if some experts are already watching this thread, so I'll toss it out here.

The other day I went in to a major store here in SoCal that only deals with public safety personnel, and I bought a new Glock 22 (I'm not a full-time LEO, which is why I'm so concerned about the legalities of my normal capacity magazines, though I do have some status while I'm on the clock).

Anyway, since I don't fall under any peace officer exemptions, we filled out the normal paperwork, and my ten-day waiting period will be over in a few days.

Now, when we finished the paperwork and he put the weapon away, it looked like he left the three fifteen-round magazines that came with it in the case (BTW Glocks now come with nice cases! My other two came in tupperware!).

So my question... when I go to pick it up, if those three normal capacity magazines are still in the case, do I have any duty to point out that he ought to be giving me ten-round magazines, or can I just keep my mouth shut and take them home? I have like ten normal Glock 22 magazines I bought back in 1995-ish, so aside from repairing them up to modern standards via methods we've recently covered, I'm not overly concerned about it... just curious what I should say, if anything...

Thanks!

stix213
02-01-2011, 12:08 AM
This is only a vaguely related question... but it seems as if some experts are already watching this thread, so I'll toss it out here.

The other day I went in to a major store here in SoCal that only deals with public safety personnel, and I bought a new Glock 22 (I'm not a full-time LEO, which is why I'm so concerned about the legalities of my normal capacity magazines, though I do have some status while I'm on the clock).

Anyway, since I don't fall under any peace officer exemptions, we filled out the normal paperwork, and my ten-day waiting period will be over in a few days.

Now, when we finished the paperwork and he put the weapon away, it looked like he left the three fifteen-round magazines that came with it in the case (BTW Glocks now come with nice cases! My other two came in tupperware!).

So my question... when I go to pick it up, if those three normal capacity magazines are still in the case, do I have any duty to point out that he ought to be giving me ten-round magazines, or can I just keep my mouth shut and take them home? I have like ten normal Glock 22 magazines I bought back in 1995-ish, so aside from repairing them up to modern standards via methods we've recently covered, I'm not overly concerned about it... just curious what I should say, if anything...

Thanks!

Technically buying isn't illegal, its the selling part that is. You also haven't involved yourself in a conspiracy to have them sell them to you, which is the usual way you would get in trouble for buying. So I think you are fine. I am not a lawyer though

From PC 12020, note you do not see "buy" in the list:

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
...
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.




Are you sure you don't qualify for exemption 20 though? Doesn't say you have to be full time

(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of, a large capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

Agent Akin
02-01-2011, 8:24 AM
Are you sure you don't qualify for exemption 20 though? Doesn't say you have to be full time

"Sworn" peace officers have status 24/7, and I'm not sworn...

Thanks though, it kinda does look like I'd be okay if they don't realize their mistake and just give them to me without me asking...

mdimeo
02-01-2011, 8:47 AM
So my question... when I go to pick it up, if those three normal capacity magazines are still in the case, do I have any duty to point out that he ought to be giving me ten-round magazines, or can I just keep my mouth shut and take them home? I have like ten normal Glock 22 magazines I bought back in 1995-ish, so aside from repairing them up to modern standards via methods we've recently covered, I'm not overly concerned about it... just curious what I should say, if anything...
Thanks!

I don't think you'd be breaking any laws (though it might be fraud if he thought you were an exempt LEO), but I think it's impolite to let someone accidentally commit a felony just because it's to your benefit

Agent Akin
02-01-2011, 8:57 AM
I don't think you'd be breaking any laws (though it might be fraud if he thought you were an exempt LEO), but I think it's impolite to let someone accidentally commit a felony just because it's to your benefit

Hmmmm aren't FFLs exempt from the felony bit? If they're not, I suppose I'd better say something, if they do try to give them to me.

They know I'm not exempt by virtue of me telling them, and going through the normal civilian version of the buying a gun process... it appeared to me to just be an oversight...

mdimeo
02-01-2011, 11:41 AM
Hmmmm aren't FFLs exempt from the felony bit? If they're not, I suppose I'd better say something, if they do try to give them to me.

Depends how you read the large-cap exemption for:

(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by
a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

I don't think it can plausibly read to let licensees sell to the general public, because that reading makes a grammatical hash, but some people disagree.