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Santa Cruz Armory
01-22-2011, 2:19 PM
Hey guys~

I was told at a gun shop today that there is a new CA law that states that all purchasers of lower receivers and/ or lower parts kits must show proof of, or purchase of a "CA approved Bullet Button". I am 99.9% positive this is wrong.

I like to think I stay up to speed on most of the CA gun laws relating to OLL and such and have never heard of this here on CG either. I was also under the impression that DOJ has never "approved" the Bullet Button.

Thanks again!

Librarian
01-22-2011, 2:22 PM
No such law.

M198
01-22-2011, 2:22 PM
:bofud:
Hey guys~

I was told at a gun shop today that there is a new CA law that states that all purchasers of lower receivers and/ or lower parts kits must show proof of, or purchase of a "CA approved Bullet Button". I am 99.9% positive this is wrong.

I like to think I stay up to speed on most of the CA gun laws relating to OLL and such and have never heard of this here on CG either. I was also under the impression that DOJ has never "approved" the Bullet Button.

Thanks again!

PsychGuy274
01-22-2011, 2:29 PM
Nope. What if you're building a featureless?

What shop was it?

Smokeybehr
01-22-2011, 2:29 PM
It's really simple to dispel the FUD when you come across it. If they say "there's a new law that..." you simply ask them what the code section or bill number is that put that law into place. If they stutter and stammer about it, or obviously try and feed you some BS, then simply call them out on it.

IIRC, the DOJ and BATFE both ship out annual books with the pertinent code sections and changes.

Purple K
01-22-2011, 3:26 PM
They're FUDDING again!

JagerTroop
01-22-2011, 4:16 PM
LOL. That's a new one. Some of these "new laws" are very interesting. The FUD spreaders are getting more creative by the day.

xenophobe
01-22-2011, 4:25 PM
There is no such thing as a CA approved magazine lock.

B Strong
01-22-2011, 4:26 PM
Hey guys~

I was told at a gun shop today that there is a new CA law that states that all purchasers of lower receivers and/ or lower parts kits must show proof of, or purchase of a "CA approved Bullet Button". I am 99.9% positive this is wrong.

I like to think I stay up to speed on most of the CA gun laws relating to OLL and such and have never heard of this here on CG either. I was also under the impression that DOJ has never "approved" the Bullet Button.

Thanks again!

More FUD.

If the shop owner would just tell prospective buyers -

"Hey, I need to cover my ***, I'll sell you a lower or order one for you, but bring in a bullet button when you pick up the lower so I can tell anyone who asks that I know the guy had a BB at the time of purchase."

That I would have no problem with.

This new law nonsense insults my intelligence.

Veggie
01-22-2011, 6:55 PM
They just want you to buy a BB there.

Quser.619
01-22-2011, 11:12 PM
They just want you to buy a BB there.

:iagree:

rrr70
01-22-2011, 11:17 PM
Name that shop.

Flopper
01-22-2011, 11:58 PM
Name that shop.

I'll bet a Raddlock that it's Sportsmen's Supply in Campbell.

asme
01-23-2011, 12:02 AM
I'll bet a Raddlock that it's Sportsmen's Supply in Campbell.

Nah, Sportsmen's Supply will tell you that ALL lowers, bullet buttons, and featureless builds are illegal... except the Bushmaster Carbon-15 they have hanging there :rolleyes:

More generally, at a gun shop "that's illegal" usually means "I'm too lazy," "I don't know," or "I'm covering my ***."

Santa Cruz Armory
01-23-2011, 12:35 AM
I don't want to name the shop. I've known the owner for a long time, he's a good guy and I know he's trying to cover his azz. I understand that he may have "store polices", but to call it law....

He also states that he wont accept the DOJ safe affidavit. You MUST have a cable lock on ALL firearms (stripped lowers included) that leave the store.

He doesn't believe a lot of the stuff I tell him. He argued with me today on the HSC exemption for people that have completed P.O.S.T. firearms training through the police academy.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-23-2011, 12:36 AM
I'll bet a Raddlock that it's Sportsmen's Supply in Campbell.

BTW, nope. I'll take that Raddlock. :D

Flopper
01-23-2011, 12:39 AM
BTW, nope. I'll take that Raddlock. :D

Sorry, I was betting rrr70 :D

The Electrician
01-23-2011, 12:44 AM
Sounds like he just wants a buck, i baught a lower 9 days ago they didnt say any thing about bb, they did say when i pick up i have either sing a affidavit or have a cable lock that was purchased in the last 30 days!

Santa Cruz Armory
01-23-2011, 12:49 AM
I just transferred 3 lowers through him about a month ago too. I had to have locks for all three. Is there any new(er) laws or changes pertaining to safe affidavits?

PsychGuy274
01-23-2011, 4:18 AM
I don't want to name the shop. I've known the owner for a long time, he's a good guy and I know he's trying to cover his azz. I understand that he may have "store polices", but to call it law....

He also states that he wont accept the DOJ safe affidavit. You MUST have a cable lock on ALL firearms (stripped lowers included) that leave the store.

He doesn't believe a lot of the stuff I tell him. He argued with me today on the HSC exemption for people that have completed P.O.S.T. firearms training through the police academy.

There are a lot of problems here...please PM me what store I was so I can contact him personally.

NorCal MedTac
01-23-2011, 8:47 AM
BLFD1

I hear you bud. There is a lot of FUD coming from him right now. Quite a few of our mutual buddies have been in there to give him business and don't really want to go back after his long winded FUD. The no safe affidavit thing is what really erks me.

Fjold
01-23-2011, 9:03 AM
You call him a "good guy" but he lies to you and is screwing you out of money. I'm tempted to question your judgement there.

Merc1138
01-23-2011, 9:23 AM
He's your buddy that you've known for years, yet you realize he's trying to nickel and dime you with an outright lie to make more money? How long do we have to be friends before I can sell you this awesome bridge in brooklyn, or maybe some ocean front property in south dakota?

just4fun63
01-23-2011, 9:55 AM
More FUD.

If the shop owner would just tell prospective buyers -

"Hey, I need to cover my ***, I'll sell you a lower or order one for you, but bring in a bullet button when you pick up the lower so I can tell anyone who asks that I know the guy had a BB at the time of purchase."

That I would have no problem with.

This new law nonsense insults my intelligence.

+1 to this statement. I understand people wanting to be extra careful in this state but don't blow smoke up my ***

mrboma
01-23-2011, 10:57 AM
BLFD,
I know the shop well and know he is your friend. You and I have spoken about the shop in another thread. I orginally went there and printed the AW Chart for him to study and learn. He took it well coming from a point of total ignorance. That being said, he does spread FUD in his shop....


Safe affidavit, still need lock
Car registration needed for long gun PPT
Bullet button non-sense
Illegal to loan a handgun to ANYONE, EVER


Time will tell I guess... he will be missing out on a potential ton of business if he does not get the facts strait pretty fast. FUD seems to really put off the knowledgable gun crowd (as it should).

A special thanks to CalGuns for giving me the knowledge I have today.

I wish the shop and his family well in the end...

Regards,
Mike


Hey guys~

I was told at a gun shop today that there is a new CA law that states that all purchasers of lower receivers and/ or lower parts kits must show proof of, or purchase of a "CA approved Bullet Button". I am 99.9% positive this is wrong.

I like to think I stay up to speed on most of the CA gun laws relating to OLL and such and have never heard of this here on CG either. I was also under the impression that DOJ has never "approved" the Bullet Button.

Thanks again!

Jake71
01-23-2011, 11:03 AM
FUD.

I think.. I got my BB several weeks later. I just remember picking up the lower.

Amazing the stuff people tout as law.

dmcag69
01-23-2011, 11:09 AM
Nah, Sportsmen's Supply will tell you that ALL lowers, bullet buttons, and featureless builds are illegal... except the Bushmaster Carbon-15 they have hanging there :rolleyes:

More generally, at a gun shop "that's illegal" usually means "I'm too lazy," "I don't know," or "I'm covering my ***."

Now, they will probably carry those new 2011 Century AK top loaders and tell you that those are the only Ak rifles legal in CA.

These were made for "Our friends in CA."

Nor-Cal
01-23-2011, 4:21 PM
More FUD, these gun shop employee's just keep coming up with new law's!

SickofSoCal
01-23-2011, 4:52 PM
What is it with California gun shops? Are they the most paranoid people on the planet?

motorhead
01-23-2011, 6:56 PM
think that's bad, my plumber told me today i might have a brain tumor.

Bill Carson
01-23-2011, 7:13 PM
Paranoid, ignorant or dishonest. I know it is not much to choose from but why do they keep doing this. Not just this shop but lots of shops in california. I have never ever once had a car dealer start discussing the vehicle code when I have bought a car. Why do gun shop employees do this? Plus the usual condescending attitude just like the androgynous, pierced, tatted, blue/pink hair having freaks that worked at all Tower Records.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-23-2011, 7:51 PM
BLFD1

I hear you bud. There is a lot of FUD coming from him right now. Quite a few of our mutual buddies have been in there to give him business and don't really want to go back after his long winded FUD. The no safe affidavit thing is what really erks me.

I know. I hear the complaints too... I need to go in and just be straight with him. I doubt he's gonna be too receptive.

bohoki
01-23-2011, 7:58 PM
first question is why would i need a bullet button with my 22lr upper?

Blackhawk556
01-23-2011, 8:31 PM
May be gun store employees are offered a bonus to see who can come up with the biggest piece of FUD that will make more money for the shop.

Cokebottle
01-23-2011, 8:55 PM
I just transferred 3 lowers through him about a month ago too. I had to have locks for all three. Is there any new(er) laws or changes pertaining to safe affidavits?
Nope. No changes.

Stripped lowers are interesting, because they will fit inside of what would be considered by the DOJ to be a handgun safe such as the ADG "Secure Vault" series.

But DOJ only requires that you affirm that you have a safe large enough to contain the firearm being purchased.

Safe affidavit is good for long guns and stripped lowers.
BATFE does not accept the safe affidavit, so all handguns must have a cable lock. BATFE doesn't care about long guns or stripped lowers, since they aren't handguns and federal law only requires locks for handguns.

santacruzstefan
01-24-2011, 12:45 AM
Was this in the Santa Cruz area? It can really only be a couple places. One, in SV, I can't imagine asking such a thing of you, although considering the, uh, heavy- handed nature of the SVPD, I wouldn't be surprised if they told him something to that effect. But thats a good shop.

The other, in Watsonville... well, the guy there straight up told me I was a felon if I owned an AR-15, and treated me like I was an idiot. I would be really surprised if they started dealing with OLLs and the like.

I suppose it could also be Outdoor World... I could see them instituting a policy like that. When I bought my first AR and had them transfer it for me, I had the upper sent to me, lower to them. They asked me to bring it my BB and install it in the lower during the 10 day, "just in case," they said. That was fine with me, though.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-24-2011, 6:09 AM
Yea, I don't want to name the shop. But I do live in SC county.

nat
01-24-2011, 7:59 AM
Was this in the Santa Cruz area? It can really only be a couple places. One, in SV, I can't imagine asking such a thing of you, although considering the, uh, heavy- handed nature of the SVPD, I wouldn't be surprised if they told him something to that effect. But thats a good shop.

The other, in Watsonville... well, the guy there straight up told me I was a felon if I owned an AR-15, and treated me like I was an idiot. I would be really surprised if they started dealing with OLLs and the like.

I suppose it could also be Outdoor World... I could see them instituting a policy like that. When I bought my first AR and had them transfer it for me, I had the upper sent to me, lower to them. They asked me to bring it my BB and install it in the lower during the 10 day, "just in case," they said. That was fine with me, though.


Marklees used to be a little better before they changed ownership a few years ago. Outdoor World was an ok place to buy some pistols.

J.D.Allen
01-24-2011, 8:23 AM
What is it with California gun shops? Are they the most paranoid people on the planet?

I believe they are. I actually witnessed a guy refuse to talk to a lady and basically kick her out of the store because she asked what type of ammo to buy for a Taurus Judge. "I'm not comfortable answering any more questions for you". Ridiculous.

ap3572001
01-24-2011, 8:30 AM
I said this before....
MANY GUN SHOPS make their own laws and rules.

I do not deal with the ones that do that.

There is a store in San Jose that told me that if I want to get an off list handgun , I need a letter from my agency.

They make up their own stuff.

stix213
01-24-2011, 9:04 AM
Gun shops that make up laws to fit with what they choose to sell are actively harming the gun community. Customers who are unsure will tend to believe the lies, and often times those customers are law enforcement themselves.

Untamed1972
01-24-2011, 9:12 AM
Hey guys~

I was told at a gun shop today that there is a new CA law that states that all purchasers of lower receivers and/ or lower parts kits must show proof of, or purchase of a "CA approved Bullet Button". I am 99.9% positive this is wrong.

I like to think I stay up to speed on most of the CA gun laws relating to OLL and such and have never heard of this here on CG either. I was also under the impression that DOJ has never "approved" the Bullet Button.

Thanks again!

There is no such thing as a "CA approved Bullet Button" which automatically makes is FUD.

SickofSoCal
01-24-2011, 2:36 PM
I said this before....
MANY GUN SHOPS make their own laws and rules.

I do not deal with the ones that do that.

There is a store in San Jose that told me that if I want to get an off list handgun , I need a letter from my agency.

They make up their own stuff.

So true, so true, so true!!!!

They are the kings of making up stories, rules, regulations, and other BS that just doesn't even exist. I'm telling you, California gun shops are practicably obsolete, we only really need them for transfers.......but even then. Prices are stupid too. Internet, internet, internet.

santacruzstefan
01-24-2011, 2:47 PM
Marklees used to be a little better before they changed ownership a few years ago. Outdoor World was an ok place to buy some pistols.

Yep, I won't shop there as a result of that encounter. I tried to be respectful, and educate him, but he wasn't hearing any of it. They have pretty high prices too, though not as high as Outdoor World.

HogKiller
01-25-2011, 7:07 PM
Yea, I don't want to name the shop. But I do live in SC county.

Not naming a BS shop is the same as condoning their actions. The ONLY way we can convince these shops is to hit them where it hurts, the pocket book. Stop being 'silly' and name the shop. What are they going to do, ban you from spending your money there?

Dooner
01-25-2011, 7:44 PM
edited

Santa Cruz Armory
01-25-2011, 11:15 PM
Not naming a BS shop is the same as condoning their actions. The ONLY way we can convince these shops is to hit them where it hurts, the pocket book. Stop being 'silly' and name the shop. What are they going to do, ban you from spending your money there?

I went back and spoke to him. He told me to he didn't mean to say it's a law but a store policy. Wrong IMHO, but well within his right. His shop, his rules I guess. I told him to use CG as a resource, he could learn a lot.

BTW, I came here asking a question... not to be bullied into "hitting them where it hurts, ...", and blasting his shop name around the Net. Call me "silly", but I'd rather go back and give him the proper info and have him learn something, than create an enemy. Besides, I've known him close to 30 yrs, and I'm not easily bullied. :)

stix213
01-25-2011, 11:37 PM
I went back and spoke to him. He told me to he didn't mean to say it's a law but a store policy. Wrong IMHO, but well within his right. His shop, his rules I guess. I told him to use CG as a resource, he could learn a lot.


Sounds like he is trying to change his story after you called him on his lies, but doesn't want to admit he was BSing you. Your original post was very specific. Not sure how it could be confused between being a new CA law and just a ridiculous unnecessary store policy. If he is still requiring it that means he is still ignorant as to the laws regulating the items he himself is selling, and there is not much excuse for that kind of laziness in an industry full of potential felony mistakes.

He might as well make you show proof of buying a legal length upper before an OLL sale.... since for all he knows you are trying to build an SBR :rolleyes:

Santa Cruz Armory
01-26-2011, 5:53 AM
He's VERY protective of his license. I understand where he's coming from, I just don't agree with it.

If he ever embraces CG, I think his ideas will change in time. In the mean time I will keep telling him when he's wrong... it's all I can do.

Thanks again for all the responses.

n6vmo
01-26-2011, 7:06 AM
Sounds like he is trying to change his story after you called him on his lies, but doesn't want to admit he was BSing you. Your original post was very specific. Not sure how it could be confused between being a new CA law and just a ridiculous unnecessary store policy.

Store policies should be displayed and not spouted....Put it in writting on the store counter or wall.

I would not go back.

VaderSpade
01-26-2011, 8:51 AM
Well they are working on a new law that requires the sale of two or more semi autos with detachable magazines to be reported. The powers that be are struggling with how to define CA legal AR’s since they DON’T have a detachable magazine. A featureless AR would have a detachable magazine and may fall into need to report category??? Buying the BB at the same time may be an answer???

I'm not saying it's right, but???

fullspeed1
01-26-2011, 9:20 AM
Rocky, I've recently had a discussion with this particular person you speak of in regards to AR's and California law. He is very opinionated and has very little knowledge of the platform.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-26-2011, 5:25 PM
Rocky, I've recently had a discussion with this particular person you speak of in regards to AR's and California law. He is very opinionated and has very little knowledge of the platform.

I know. I try as well. I'm gonna keep bugging him until he either kicks me out, or I get tired of talking. :D Eventually I'll get through. ;)

Anchors
01-26-2011, 8:02 PM
The DOJ doesn't approve of bullet buttons, much less make laws to endorse them.

Droc101
01-26-2011, 8:47 PM
It's Ralston. He also doesn't know how to use the "internet"

Ok I think i better put in my two cents. Currently this is a store policy of my fathers. He is concerned about a civil liability that was told to him by a patron. I am working with him on this at the moment and trying to get him better educated on this matter. I apologize for any inconveneince that this may cause. Please understand that the shop is my fathers livelihood and that if there was a chance of anything that could endanger it he will take precautions to avoid it. Again I am sorry for the inconvienience. I have been clear to him on the matter that he must present these as store policies, not laws. He has this posted as such near his handgun display.
And now for Dooner, I understand that you are a bit new here but please show a little bit more respect as to when someone would prefer to keep something private to not put it on "blast" and then proceed to flame the subject. It does not impress anyone and it sets the tone for how you will be regarded in the future. this forum is an amazing place where people can come together and get educated on a subject that is the source of fear and confusion for many.
Thank you all for your understanding as we deal with this in a way that I hope will harbor greater understanding and compromise.
-David Ralston

Droc101
01-26-2011, 8:50 PM
I know. I try as well. I'm gonna keep bugging him until he either kicks me out, or I get tired of talking. :D Eventually I'll get through. ;)

You know dam good and well that no one gets kicked out of the shop. :) We always have a hot pot of coffee going for this very reason. Thank you for your help in this matter

ralstonrods
01-26-2011, 8:50 PM
i am sorry you have miss understood thjis is a store policy not a law this protects the owner from deep pocket law called civil. i have spent a long time and energy to make sure myselff and family are protected from civil litagation. im here to serve the customer with extreme respect and be there for them . it seems funny that all the people i talk to recomend the proof of a bullet button. and alot of shops wont even carry ar parts at all. im trying to do that for everyone. im sorry for any wrong information or missunderstanding . thank you for any understanding.

Droc101
01-26-2011, 10:33 PM
New Development,
Ralston Rods and Tackle has changed their policy to as follows:
If a customer would like the lower parts kit installed by Ralston Rods and Tackle on an AR-15 Lower and it includes any "evil" features, we require that a bullet button be purchased or supplied to be installed pursuant California state law pc12276.1(a)

The cable lock policy remains unchanged.
Any firearm that leaves the Ralston Rods and tackle as a result of a purchase/transfer must have a new cable lock purchased or supplied with it.
Mind you that this is a policy that comes at no cost to the customer if they stop at their local police station where they can receive a lock at no charge. Most new guns come with a cable/gun lock of some sort as well. This is a policy that came about as a request from LEO's in our area, as well as My fathers desire to make the firearms as safe as possible and lessen any unforeseen civil liability. Once again, thank you all for your understanding and patience with this matter and feel free to send me a private message if ever there is a question about store policies or why we do something a certain way. I would say pm my dad but i am usually faster on the response.
-David Ralston

Merc1138
01-27-2011, 1:11 AM
But why make policies based around supposed liabilities for laws that don't actually exist? If I came in to do business and casually mentioned that if he didn't have a hitching post and horse trough out front filled with new fresh water every day or he risked being sued by some equestrians, would he put that out front as well?(hmm, now that I think about it, there's possibly some shops here and there that actually have this already).

I do understand that you're working to educate him on the various matters(and seem to have gotten some of the issues resolved), but it's pretty silly to say the least.

Rebellious
01-27-2011, 1:25 AM
shops make up crap all the time.
would it happen to be Gunworld? they tried to tell me AR pistols are illegal in CA....at that point I just walked away

Droc101
01-27-2011, 4:14 AM
But why make policies based around supposed liabilities for laws that don't actually exist? If I came in to do business and casually mentioned that if he didn't have a hitching post and horse trough out front filled with new fresh water every day or he risked being sued by some equestrians, would he put that out front as well?(hmm, now that I think about it, there's possibly some shops here and there that actually have this already).

I do understand that you're working to educate him on the various matters(and seem to have gotten some of the issues resolved), but it's pretty silly to say the least.

Because in Kalifornia you can be sued for anything whether or not it was law, and even if you win the case you still lose. Again the only way to protect yourself is to have a base understanding of what the actual laws are, however, being a one man shop, he is not afforded all that much time for research. As time goes on and more questions come up, the more of a chance that he will have to learn what is true and what is fud.

Dooner
01-27-2011, 6:02 AM
And now for Dooner, I understand that you are a bit new here but please show a little bit more respect as to when someone would prefer to keep something private to not put it on "blast" and then proceed to flame the subject. It does not impress anyone and it sets the tone for how you will be regarded in the future. this forum is an amazing place where people can come together and get educated on a subject that is the source of fear and confusion for many.
Thank you all for your understanding as we deal with this in a way that I hope will harbor greater understanding and compromise.
-David Ralston

O.K. I take it all back. At least we have a new member now.

BroncoBob
01-27-2011, 6:58 AM
Good God, where do these gun shop employees come up with this crap?

Droc101
01-27-2011, 7:32 AM
O.K. I take it all back. At least we have a new member now.

Thank you Dooner. I really appreciate that.

Bronco a lot of it comes from the shops just wanting to protect themselves and them getting bad information from many different sources coupled with the fact that they are not aware of resources such as this one. There is a lot of liability tied up in an FFL license and if it is your only source of income, you want to protect it at all costs. In comparison, how many times have you been at a job that asked you to break a company policy or law and you did it so as to not endanger your job? (i.e. worked through a lunch break, helped a customer while off the clock, performed duties not listed in your job description etc.) Its the same thing. You do it because its what you do to ensure you still receive your paycheck the next week.

Rugerdaddy
01-27-2011, 9:42 AM
Nope. What if you're building a featureless?

What shop was it?

Exactly. I have no bullet button on my evil-free AR-15. Monsterman grip, muzzle brake..................no bullet button. :44:

SupportGeek
01-27-2011, 10:53 AM
Yep, I won't shop there as a result of that encounter. I tried to be respectful, and educate him, but he wasn't hearing any of it. They have pretty high prices too, though not as high as Outdoor World.

Hm, If you mean Markleys, I was there in the beginning of Dec and kind of browsed a bit, I didnt think their prices were TOO far out of whack, nothing that would scare me off anyhow. Mind you I didnt spend a long time browsing.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-27-2011, 11:54 AM
I just want to remind everyone that this thread was started to ask questions regarding any new laws... it was NEVER intended to be a gun shop bashfest.

I completely understand the position of the owner in wanting to keep his license safe and his livelihood intact. I was only looking to the CG community for clarification. So those of you that feel the need to come in this thread and talk crap, please take it elsewhere.

We all need to educate the few gun shops that exist in our areas. They're a dying breed. And in my opinion, the CA DOJ would love nothing more than to close them all down.


~BLFD1

santacruzstefan
01-27-2011, 12:16 PM
^Especially in our area. I have nothing bad to say about the majority of local FFLs, which is why I tried not to be specific in my original post. At least the shop in Watsonville has a good selection of pistols; perhaps I'll give them another shot.

Cokebottle
01-27-2011, 10:03 PM
New Development,
Ralston Rods and Tackle has changed their policy to as follows:
If a customer would like the lower parts kit installed by Ralston Rods and Tackle on an AR-15 Lower and it includes any "evil" features, we require that a bullet button be purchased or supplied to be installed pursuant California state law pc12276.1(a)
While this is a step in the right direction, what if I am intending to use my lower with a rimfire upper?

Rimfire rifles are exempt from the fixed magazine requirement for a "featured" build. If I am building a .22lr rifle, I should not be forced to spend an extra $25 on an unneeded bullet button.

oni.dori
01-27-2011, 10:20 PM
Definitely FUD; because as stated before, what if it is a featureless rifle? Sounds to me like someone was trying to pad their sales.

Droc101
01-28-2011, 6:31 PM
While this is a step in the right direction, what if I am intending to use my lower with a rimfire upper?

Rimfire rifles are exempt from the fixed magazine requirement for a "featured" build. If I am building a .22lr rifle, I should not be forced to spend an extra $25 on an unneeded bullet button.

pc12276.1(a) does not apply to rimfires so you are clear

Cokebottle
01-28-2011, 7:22 PM
pc12276.1(a) does not apply to rimfires so you are clear
I know it doesn't apply. That's why I asked the question.

If I'm buying a lower and he is installing the LPK with a pistol grip (evil feature), he is going to require that I have a bullet button per the policy that you just posted.

Droc101
01-28-2011, 7:31 PM
I know it doesn't apply. That's why I asked the question.

If I'm buying a lower and he is installing the LPK with a pistol grip (evil feature), he is going to require that I have a bullet button per the policy that you just posted.

From my understanding Ca considers a lower with a pistol grip or a telescoping stock installed without an upper installed on it an assault weapon (we have had some complete lowers get shipped to us that had the bb's installed before we recieved them because of this). What I would then suggest is to hold off on installing the pistol grip until you have the rimfire upper to install on it as well which would then exempt the rifle from 12276.

Don29palms
01-28-2011, 7:33 PM
It is the resposibility of the ownwer/builder of the gun to ensure it is constructed in a legal configuration. There are quite a few dealers out of state that refuse to sell stripped lowers to California. I have asked why and have got responses that people were not installing bullet buttons and making AWs so they won't sell to California. Companies like CTD won't sell AR parts to California at all even though it is perfectly legal.

Droc101
01-28-2011, 8:08 PM
It is the resposibility of the ownwer/builder of the gun to ensure it is constructed in a legal configuration. There are quite a few dealers out of state that refuse to sell stripped lowers to California. I have asked why and have got responses that people were not installing bullet buttons and making AWs so they won't sell to California. Companies like CTD won't sell AR parts to California at all even though it is perfectly legal.

Thats why our policy relates to the install of parts not the sale of the reciever.

santacruzstefan
01-28-2011, 8:29 PM
Oh, after re-reading, now I'm surprised that it was Ralston. Every time I've been in there, they have been exceptionally friendly, totally open to black rifles, and they have good prices; the best I've seen through Gallery of Guns (thanks for the CZ, btw). Its a great shop, but since they are relatively new, its no wonder they are a bit nervous with things. But regardless, its easily the best FFL in Santa Cruz county that I've dealt with.

wildhawker
01-28-2011, 9:38 PM
From my understanding Ca considers a lower with a pistol grip or a telescoping stock installed without an upper installed on it an assault weapon (we have had some complete lowers get shipped to us that had the bb's installed before we recieved them because of this). What I would then suggest is to hold off on installing the pistol grip until you have the rimfire upper to install on it as well which would then exempt the rifle from 12276.

Your understanding is incorrect.

CA doesn't consider a receiver an AW unless it's "banned by name". End of logic. Until it is a *fully functional* firearm, there is no California test of disposition.

Cokebottle
01-28-2011, 10:11 PM
From my understanding Ca considers a lower with a pistol grip or a telescoping stock installed without an upper installed on it an assault weapon
Your understanding is incorrect.

PC 12276.1:
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor,
forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon
without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the
barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
Note that for pistols (which I included to show the point), it specifies only semiautomatic.
For rifles, both semiautomatic and centerfire are required to fall under 12276.1.
A lower with no upper attached is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire.
The upper includes the bolt and the gas system, which determines what it will be. An AR lower may be built up as a rimfire, or it may be built up as a bolt action (which includes a number of available 50 caliber uppers).
Even with a 5.56, the upper could be configured with a barrel without a gas port, which would require the charging handle to be operated to eject and chamber every round. Such a configuration would not fall under 12276.1

I think your confusion stems from the fact that California (and the BATFE for that matter) consider the serialized lower receiver to be the "firearm"... but that status does not change from the time it is a stripped lower to when the LPK and buttstock are installed.
The only difference between the BATFE and DOJ is that the BATFE does not consider the firearm to be a "rifle" until both a buttstock and barrel over 16" are installed. In a "free state", any stripped lower can be built into a pistol build.
In California, two things define that stripped lower as a "rifle". One is the DROS software not offering the "other" option, and due to the roster, the lower must be processed as a "long gun".
But in addition, if I were to take an 80% lower (no DROS, it could be configured as a pistol) and attach a buttstock to it, the DOJ would then consider it to be a "long gun".
(we have had some complete lowers get shipped to us that had the bb's installed before we recieved them because of this). What I would then suggest is to hold off on installing the pistol grip until you have the rimfire upper to install on it as well which would then exempt the rifle from 12276.You can't completely install the LPK without some kind of grip or buffer tube because those parts retain the selector detent pin and the buffer retainer pin.

I can understand the desire to protect the business, but the shop owner has no control over what happens to the lower after it leaves. The buyer could configure it illegally in any number of ways, with or without the bullet button. He could build it into a pistol, which would create an SBR, he could install a 14.5" barrel without having pinned the muzzle device, which would also create an SBR, he could install a standard 5.56 upper and remove the bullet button, or he could use a high-cap mag with the bullet button.
All of those things would be illegal, and two are a violation of federal NFA laws in addition to California statutes.

Honestly, the only way to protect the business from civil liability suits is to stop doing business.
I'm not sure where the shop owner feels that he could be liable if a customer builds an AW from parts purchased at his store. The DOJ would certainly not have a civil case. They may question the business owner as a part of their investigation, but as long as the completed rifle was legal when sold, or if only parts were sold, there is no criminal liability.
If the purchaser uses the gun to shoot up a school, it doesn't matter whether the gun was sold in a legal configuration or not, and it doesn't matter whether the shooter kept it in a legal configuration or not... there is always the possibility that the parents of one of the kids will try to go after the business owner for their own lottery ticket.

CSACANNONEER
01-28-2011, 10:31 PM
Your understanding is incorrect.

CA doesn't consider a receiver an AW unless it's "banned by name". End of logic. Until it is a *fully functional* firearm, there is no California test of disposition.

Really? I read the law a bit differently. I read that it has to be a complete rifle or handgun (depending on the list)which is listed by both make and model. Since a receiver is not a complete rifle or handgun (depending on the list), it would not qualify as an AW. I will go further and say that a handgun which is legally built on a named rifle receiver (and visa-versa) would not be a list AW. However, IANAL.

souljahboi
01-29-2011, 10:21 PM
What store is this so I don't accidentally walk into it. I think we need a sticky on all the stores that spout out FUD.

USMC VET
01-29-2011, 10:53 PM
They just want you to buy a BB there.

+1 This is my best thought.

Droc101
01-30-2011, 9:59 AM
What store is this so I don't accidentally walk into it. I think we need a sticky on all the stores that spout out FUD.

I think you should read the entire post before spouting off about something that doesn't even relate to the current topic at hand. If you had read it then you would see; A. the shop has been Identified. B. the shop has made a reply. and C. That the shop is working on achieving a better understanding of the law so that we may serve our customers to the best of our capability and at the same time ensure that we are protected so that we may continue to serve our community.

Droc101
01-30-2011, 10:06 AM
I think your confusion stems from the fact that California (and the BATFE for that matter) consider the serialized lower receiver to be the "firearm"... but that status does not change from the time it is a stripped lower to when the LPK and buttstock are installed.
The only difference between the BATFE and DOJ is that the BATFE does not consider the firearm to be a "rifle" until both a buttstock and barrel over 16" are installed. In a "free state", any stripped lower can be built into a pistol build.
In California, two things define that stripped lower as a "rifle". One is the DROS software not offering the "other" option, and due to the roster, the lower must be processed as a "long gun".


Yes this is where I was confused. For my fathers own comfort the policy remains as is, however, if you bring in the exempt upper to have installed at the same time as the LPK then there wont be any issue. also we do not require you to purchase a bb from the shop as you can supply one yourself. Also if you purchase the LPK for home/self install with your lower then we dont require a bb be supplied or purchased. This policy is for the install of parts only.