PDA

View Full Version : The dreaded pistol grip


geo5120
08-21-2006, 5:14 PM
First off, thanks for being here to calm us all down. Would this configuration be considered a pistol grip?

blkA4alb
08-21-2006, 5:18 PM
To be safe you might want to cut it a little higher. Its debatable whether that allows for a "pistol style grasp." I wouldn't feel safe using that.

Paul1960
08-21-2006, 5:19 PM
My judgement would be yes. A very short one but one none the less.

Quoted from Title 11, Division 5, Chapter 39, Department of Justice Regulations for Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Magazines. Paragraph 5469 definitions:

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

bwiese
08-21-2006, 5:21 PM
YES!

You can get the web of your hand behind it and it thus violates 979.20 definition of pistol grip.

DON'T DO THIS if you have a detachable mag.

The only options for detachable mag are to go gripless with an SRB, or use a MonsterMan grip which does not qualify as a pistol grip since you grasp it like an ordinary rifle stock. Another option is to get the Bell & Carlson AR thumbhole stock and fill in the thumbhole with fiberglas.

Also do NOT use the Shoeless Ventures thumb grip, it could readily be regarded as a pistol grip.

blkA4alb
08-21-2006, 5:24 PM
YES!

You can get the web of your hand behind it and it thus violates 979.20 definition of pistol grip.

DON'T DO THIS if you have a detachable mag.

The only options for detachable mag are to go gripless with an SRB, or use a MonsterMan grip which does not qualify as a pistol grip since you grasp it like an ordinary rifle stock. Another option is to get the Bell & Carlson AR thumbhole stock and fill in the thumbhole with fiberglas.

Also do NOT use the Shoeless Ventures thumb grip, it could readily be regarded as a pistol grip.
Bill, I have to disagree with you here, while I do believe that this particular sawn off grip is cutting it too close (way too close.) Sawn off pistol grips are just as legal as the SRB, as long as it does not allow for a pistol style grasp. Meaning nearly flush like the SRB.

grammaton76
08-21-2006, 5:24 PM
First off, thanks for being here to calm us all down. Would this configuration be considered a pistol grip?

I wouldn't feel safe with it - for one thing, it sticks out too far for my tastes. But for another, it's a cut down pistol grip, which they've set a precedent for harrassment on (starting in 1999).

Really, the safest thing to do is go with either an SRB or a Monsterman grip. Either one will run you $35, and you enjoy the protection of there being LOTS of other shooters with the same exact grip you have! To me, the protection there is more important than saving $35 by taking a hacksaw to a piece of plastic. If the DOJ suddenly starts tagging people with Monsterman grips or SRBs, you're gonna hear about it on here in very short order. If they start tagging people with sawed-off pistol grips - ok, what're the variables? How far was it sawed off? How far off do you have to be to be safe? Is it EVER safe?

Remember, the DOJ has actually said gripless configs are ok in one of their memos or other statements. They've also hassled a company back in '99 that was selling rifles with sawed off pg's. Now, the circumstances around the events in '99 are debatable, but they've set somewhat of a precedent there.

I personally would just buy one or the other of the grip alternatives.

blkA4alb
08-21-2006, 5:30 PM
I wouldn't feel safe with it - for one thing, it sticks out too far for my tastes. But for another, it's a cut down pistol grip, which they've set a precedent for harrassment on (starting in 1999).

Really, the safest thing to do is go with either an SRB or a Monsterman grip. Either one will run you $35, and you enjoy the protection of there being LOTS of other shooters with the same exact grip you have! To me, the protection there is more important than saving $35 by taking a hacksaw to a piece of plastic. If the DOJ suddenly starts tagging people with Monsterman grips or SRBs, you're gonna hear about it on here in very short order. If they start tagging people with sawed-off pistol grips - ok, what're the variables? How far was it sawed off? How far off do you have to be to be safe? Is it EVER safe?

Remember, the DOJ has actually said gripless configs are ok in one of their memos or other statements. They've also hassled a company back in '99 that was selling rifles with sawed off pg's. Now, the circumstances around the events in '99 are debatable, but they've set somewhat of a precedent there.

I personally would just buy one or the other of the grip alternatives.
Gram, what kind of hassling could the DOJ have done about sawn off pistol grips in 1999? SB23 wasn't enacted until 2000 :confused: .

grammaton76
08-21-2006, 5:33 PM
Gram, what kind of hassling could the DOJ have done about sawn off pistol grips in 1999? SB23 wasn't enacted until 2000 :confused: .

Oops. Yeah, I meant 2000. I remember reading about this company selling sawed-off grips in '00, RIGHT after SB23, and getting hassled really heavly over it.

blkA4alb
08-21-2006, 5:36 PM
Oops. Yeah, I meant 2000. I remember reading about this company selling sawed-off grips in '00, RIGHT after SB23, and getting hassled really heavly over it.
Ah, I figured it was just a typo. Just hassled? No arrests? Wouldn't you say that we get hassled about the OLLs by the DOJ? Yet they're perfectly legal.. ;) .

grammaton76
08-21-2006, 5:42 PM
Ah, I figured it was just a typo. Just hassled? No arrests? Wouldn't you say that we get hassled about the OLLs by the DOJ? Yet they're perfectly legal.. ;) .

I'm not 100% on whether there was arrests involved, which is why I'm saying hassled. You can search if you like... I think Technical Ted was the one who had the most informative posts on what went down.

bwiese
08-21-2006, 6:08 PM
I'm not 100% on whether there was arrests involved, which is why I'm saying hassled. You can search if you like... I think Technical Ted was the one who had the most informative posts on what went down.

It was a dealer selling cut-down HK911s (similar to HK91s) that were SB23 compliant because supposedly no grip or flash hider.

The DOJ did something but I dunno what - others here will have more info.

What the DOJ did was likely wrong but still it had consequences...

gose
08-21-2006, 6:09 PM
I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

Cutting it way too close (by not being close enough) :D

geo5120
08-21-2006, 6:11 PM
I get it, I got it, Ill be good to go! thanks for the replies and info. Definatly dont want to be a hassle in the rough. Whats a SRB?

blkA4alb
08-21-2006, 6:13 PM
I get it, I got it, Ill be good to go! thanks for the replies and info. Definatly dont want to be a hassle in the rough. Whats a SRB?
Are you saying that your going to use that? Do so at your own peril. I wouldn't use that. An SRB is a product made by the member bu-bye here. It stands for spring retaining bracket.

geo5120
08-21-2006, 6:18 PM
No, I meant that I get it as in NOT using what I have attached. Just was looking for any +/- in general and do appreciate what you guys have relayed.

anotherone
08-21-2006, 6:20 PM
Personally I wouldn't be seen with that much of a grip installed. However, whether or not that particular sawed off grip counts as a pistol grip depends on your DA's opinion. If I were you though I'd just use the Monsterman grip or saw the rest off, it's not worth the risk.

blkA4alb
08-21-2006, 6:23 PM
No, I meant that I get it as in NOT using what I have attached. Just was looking for any +/- in general and do appreciate what you guys have relayed.
Ok, :D . Glad to hear it. Here is the SRB website for you.

http://www.srbtactical.com/pictures.htm

mr2.0
08-22-2006, 1:59 AM
How about this? :D
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/nguyejp1/t2.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/nguyejp1/t1.jpg

Ford8N
08-22-2006, 5:28 AM
Has anyone ever actually been convicted by a court of law for having one of these cut off bits of plastic or steel on an OLL?

xenophobe
08-22-2006, 9:25 AM
Has anyone ever actually been convicted by a court of law for having one of these cut off bits of plastic or steel on an OLL?

Not sure, but one dealer who was selling unlisted AWs in 2002/03 had their operations shut down by the DOJ... they were selling HK911s, SP89's, FALs and other rifles, but no AK or ARs as they were still banned to the receiver level at that time...

Not exactly sure what happened to them, as they used to be at every San Jose and SF show, but after the DOJ intervention, stopped doing the shows, to say the least. As to what actually happened, who knows...

Chaingun
08-22-2006, 12:25 PM
I get it, I got it, Ill be good to go! thanks for the replies and info. Definatly dont want to be a hassle in the rough. Whats a SRB?

At this time you would be safer with a Monsterman style grip, which you could make out of wood or fab up in plastic (or purchase).

You're pushing your luck with that grip, even if you win in court you lost lots of money. But then you've just opened the door for a new grip, possibly.

Mudvayne540ld
08-22-2006, 3:33 PM
I highly doubt you would get into any trouble at all with that grip like that. I would say 98% chance nothing happens. But all it takes is 1 time and a pissy DA..... and you go down hard.

Wulf
08-22-2006, 7:16 PM
That SHOULD be legal if the DOJ were to base their judgement on Jeff Amador's statements to the effect that pistol grips are bad cause they allow you to hold and fire a rifle in each hand. I'd love to see him demonstrate that with two live weapons in front of a jury.

slowjonn
08-22-2006, 8:30 PM
I was at Ade's (in Orange) on Monday and he had two OLL rifles sitting on his display case. Both were for sale. Both had a similar set up. Both had cut down pistol grips. I think his were a bit more cut down but very similar. Anyone else see them? They were actually not that bad to hold.

Gotta love the nachos on that guy!