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BoxesOfLiberty
01-21-2011, 12:45 PM
New Yorker staff writer Dan Baum writes:

After Tucson: Stricter Gun Laws Aren't the Answer

It's tempting, after a hideous event like the shooting in Tucson, to want to "do something" about gun violence. But let's pause to consider what that something could be, and what price we might pay for doing it.

Much has been made of Arizona's notoriously lax gun laws. But Arizona law was irrelevant to Jared Loughner's purchasing the gun. The background check is federal, and he passed it. Yes, his carrying concealed to the Safeway, without a permit, was legal under Arizona's new law, but if it hadn't been, would he have been dissuaded? He headed off to commit murder; he was already far over the line where a concealed-carry law would have made any difference to him...

Read the rest at Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-baum/after-tucson-stricter-gun_b_811696.html)

Interesting article. After reading Baum's analysis, one might reasonably ask why progressives would want gun control at all.

Freebird
01-21-2011, 12:48 PM
Didn't have the stamina to read the whole article, but from what you posted he seems to have put together a good argument.

Luieburger
01-21-2011, 1:03 PM
Hearts and minds comrades. Hearts and minds. We are winning.

Wherryj
01-21-2011, 1:03 PM
New Yorker staff writer Dan Baum writes:



Read the rest at Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-baum/after-tucson-stricter-gun_b_811696.html)

Interesting article. After reading Baum's analysis, one might reasonably ask why progressives would want gun control at all.

"It's a hard thing to accept, but in a country of 350 million privately owned guns, the people who are inclined to do bad things with guns will always be able to get them. One might as well combat air crashes by repealing gravity. "

This line sounds about right to me.

IrishPirate
01-21-2011, 1:05 PM
it's an emotional argument....logic doesn't come into play. Well written article though! lots of very good points.

Python2
01-21-2011, 1:26 PM
I cant belive this article is coming from HuffPost.

DavidRSA
01-21-2011, 1:40 PM
For an even more interesting article by the same author, download "Happiness is a Worn Gun" from Dan Baum's website:

http://danbaum.com/Nine_Lives/Articles.html

He comes from a liberal background and had a CCW. Its a good read to understand the mindset of someone who is not a conservative but believes in the RKBA. Read it - it is quite the eye opener. Well worth it.

PEBKAC
01-21-2011, 1:41 PM
An excellent article, that man clearly knows the score is.

And the below quote pretty much sums up why:

Gun control not only does no practical good, it actively causes harm. It may be hard to show that it saves lives, but it's easy to demonstrate that we've sacrificed a generation of progress on things like health care, women's rights, immigration reform, income fairness, and climate change because we keep messing with people's guns.

Disagree with the left on some of those issues (or at least in how to deal with them) though many of us may, it is a point that the left must be convinced of for us to win the war.

Havoc70
01-21-2011, 1:45 PM
Great article, and a new sig line to boot!

Don29palms
01-21-2011, 1:48 PM
Wow! A liberal Democrat that is sane.

Neuvik
01-21-2011, 1:50 PM
Huffpo with a pro 2A article!? Very cool, we're wining.

Milsurps
01-21-2011, 2:06 PM
Wow! A liberal Democrat that is sane.

Naw, can't be. :confused:











Good article. :)

Dr Rockso
01-21-2011, 2:09 PM
Saved in my "good articles" folder...I find that the arguments he uses are the ones that cultural/political opponents (i.e. people who don't intrinsically 'hate guns', but just like taking part in the red state/blue state culture wars) are most receptive to.

MudCamper
01-21-2011, 2:14 PM
Wow. Show this article to all the antis you know. The fact that it's coming from the Huffington Post will give it great traction.

pgg
01-21-2011, 2:18 PM
I cant belive this article is coming from HuffPost.

And the comments ... my god, they're ... they're ... not mouthfoaming anti propaganda whine!

The world is twisting around me. I don't know which way is up any more.

DavidRSA
01-21-2011, 2:32 PM
Wow! A liberal Democrat that is sane.

What is interesting about all this is that there are a great deal of us. Dan Baum's views I find myself very much in synch with, as do a lot of other gun folks I know. We just tend to be less loud about it since the reception amongst some gun folks can be downright hostile.

Plus, in the black-and-white views of hyperpartisan politics, there is little room for nuance. The realization that there are non-conservative pro-RKBA folks like Dan Baum and me is a good thing, in that it challenges the black-and-white wordview and I am pleased you are all seeing these thoughts.

trashman
01-21-2011, 3:01 PM
That was such a cogently well-written piece I almost fell out of my chair.....

So much of the chatter has been mindless bloviating that I've started to lunge to change the radio/tv channel whenever the topic comes up.

Bigtime1
01-21-2011, 3:06 PM
Interesting article. After reading Baum's analysis, one might reasonably ask why progressives would want gun control at all.

Its not about guns.

pgg
01-21-2011, 3:13 PM
For an even more interesting article by the same author, download "Happiness is a Worn Gun" from Dan Baum's website:

http://danbaum.com/Nine_Lives/Articles.html

He comes from a liberal background and had a CCW. Its a good read to understand the mindset of someone who is not a conservative but believes in the RKBA. Read it - it is quite the eye opener. Well worth it.

That is a good article too ... this part where he tried open carry was also interesting:

Then I stopped at a gritty little Mexican grocery I like, for some tortillas and crema, and everybody noticed, their eyes fl icking over my belt and going wide. “Señor, is it real?” a chubby little boy asked as I locked up my bicycle. In Mexico, almost nobody gets a license to own a handgun, let alone wear one. “¿Por qué la pistola?” a man at the meat counter asked. “¿Por qué no?” I answered. He shrugged and walked away, shaking his head—not like I was dangerous, more like I was simply a gabacho fool. Overall, I felt less safe with the gun openly displayed than with it concealed. I worried that someone would knock me on the back of the head and steal it, or that some genuinely aggressive nutcase would challenge me to draw. Mostly, though, I felt obnoxious. In all likelihood, I was making somebody silently anxious. It remains to be seen how Stollenwerk’s open-carry strategy
will work. I suspect it will backfi re, that instead of acclimating people it will frighten them, and that they’ll eventually ask their legislators to put
a stop to it.

I'm absolutely not one to begrudge any gun owner's right to openly carry their guns, but it's always struck me as obnoxious and counterproductive.

rabagley
01-21-2011, 3:35 PM
And the comments ... my god, they're ... they're ... not mouthfoaming anti propaganda whine!

The world is twisting around me. I don't know which way is up any more.

Seriously. We need to abandon the anti-left attitude and each take a liberal and teach them how to shoot. You'd be amazed how many are at least interested in learning how to handle a gun, if you only take the time to ask.

It is true that a slim majority of gun grabbers are leftists, but that doesn't mean that leftists are gun grabbers. Most are simply uninformed, and showing them a gun, teaching them how to handle it safely, and letting them experience even an hour at the range...

Well, let's say it's a hell of a lot more fun than yelling at each other for the same hour.

Zebra
01-21-2011, 3:40 PM
I cant belive this article is coming from HuffPost.
HA!

'My name is legion: for we are many.'

:43:

creekside
01-21-2011, 3:58 PM
New Yorker staff writer Dan Baum writes:

Read the rest at Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-baum/after-tucson-stricter-gun_b_811696.html)

Interesting article. After reading Baum's analysis, one might reasonably ask why progressives would want gun control at all.

Amazingly, my comment at HuffPo survived moderation:

"The history of gun control in America is a history of racism. From laws in the South to disarm free blacks after the Civil War, to laws outlawing martial arts weapons in California when racism against Japanese and Chinese immigrants was at its height, to New York's "Sullivan Law" in 1911 requiring handgun registrati*on and aimed at newly arriving European immigrants*, to the "Mulford Act" in 1967 outlawing of loaded weapons in public in California because the Black Panthers made an armed visit to the California state legislatur*e . . . and need I mention the plight of the American Indian once disarmed (Google "Wounded Knee 1890").

"Even the Gun Control Act of 1968, while face neutral, was in reaction to urban riots and ever since has been applied disproport*ionately to poor blacks. All of these laws are about as neutral in effect as the infamous "Yick Wo" anti-Chine*se law in San Francisco requiring laundries to be in brick or stone buildings.

"Among progressiv*e groups, who actually gets the memo? The Pink Pistols, of course, the unabashedl*y pro-gay pro-gun group that understand*s that there is nothing inconsiste*nt between exercising 1st Amendment & 2nd Amendment rights. "First Amendment: speak your mind! Second Amendment: save your life!"

Skidmark
01-21-2011, 4:41 PM
For an even more interesting article by the same author, download "Happiness is a Worn Gun" from Dan Baum's website:

http://danbaum.com/Nine_Lives/Articles.html

He comes from a liberal background and had a CCW. Its a good read to understand the mindset of someone who is not a conservative but believes in the RKBA. Read it - it is quite the eye opener. Well worth it.

I bought the Harper's issue when his article was featured in it last year. A great read, and I have to think it changed a few minds - on both "sides." Thanks for the reminder, I think it was also discussed here on CGN, but I can't browse OT to find the links.

Stonewalker
01-21-2011, 4:58 PM
It is a pretty good article but you can see he is only arguing against gun control because of the political impracticality of fighting for it. It's not really a pro-2A blog.

But he does a great job of cutting through rhetoric and focusing on the important questions like "does gun control even save lives?". He may not be completely pro-2A but he is a reasonable person who has thought about the issues instead of just being afraid of guns. It's really refreshing to read his piece.

robcoe
01-21-2011, 5:15 PM
Wow! A liberal Democrat that is sane.

You would be supprised how many liberals(I say liberals, because liberals and democrats are not the same thing) are not against the 2nd ammendment and actualy own guns.

A few examples

My dad-has more guns than I do, though all rifles.

My mother- wants me to teach her how to shoot my handguns next time she visits

Me- I fit more in the Penn and Teller type of libertarian but most conservitives would still consider me on the left on social issues.

Pretty much every person I hang out with- All my friends from college shoot, so do most of my family.

Actualy the only liberal I know of who has a problem with guns is my uncle, and nobody takes him seriously.

The two most anti-gun people I know are my mothers cousins, and they are tea party people.

The idea that all liberals hate guns, and all conservitives like the second ammendment is mostly a fabrication of the media, to avoid having to over tax their anchor clones few remaining brain cells.

trashman
01-21-2011, 5:27 PM
For an even more interesting article by the same author, download "Happiness is a Worn Gun" from Dan Baum's website:


Ah - I didn't catch that it was the same guy until you pointed it out. That was a very good piece he did for Harper's.

Shame that the sensible, calm, conversations aren't the ones that drive advertising revenue...

--Neill

GOEX FFF
01-21-2011, 5:42 PM
Amazingly, my comment at HuffPo survived moderation: "First Amendment: speak your mind! Second Amendment: save your life!"

^^^ This is more than sig worthy!
Or at very least a bumper sticker. :D

Dreaded Claymore
01-21-2011, 6:00 PM
The idea that all liberals hate guns, and all conservitives like the second ammendment is mostly a fabrication of the media, to avoid having to over tax their anchor clones few remaining brain cells.

Exactly. Look at me, a liberal Wiccan gun owner. For a more maligned example, look at Booshanky.

Zebra
01-21-2011, 6:57 PM
Exactly. Look at me, a liberal Wiccan gun owner. For a more maligned example, look at Booshanky.
Admire your spirit! Good luck keeping it up in the right wing, christian undertow around here.

Frank

Werewolf1021
01-21-2011, 7:46 PM
Exactly. Look at me, a liberal Wiccan gun owner. For a more maligned example, look at Booshanky.

Darn Wiccans. :D :p

Norse Paganism is where it is at! :)

SickofSoCal
01-21-2011, 7:57 PM
Hearts and minds comrades. Hearts and minds. We are winning.

We are! I can't believe the changes I've seen since 1999, and I will credit most of it to the good old internet.

rabagley
01-21-2011, 8:06 PM
Darn Wiccans. :D :p

Norse Paganism is where it is at! :)

Hear! Hear! Where's my mead?

Zebra
01-21-2011, 8:18 PM
Hear! Hear! Where's my mead?
RAGNAR! (http://www.snooth.com/image/honeyrun-mead-ragnars-reserve/)

gazzavc
01-21-2011, 8:25 PM
Quick, send it to Shoulder-thing-that-goes-up-McCarthy


Better still roll up a copy of the paper and...............well you know what to do.

Paul S
01-21-2011, 10:29 PM
............
The idea that all liberals hate guns, and all conservatives like the second amendment is mostly a fabrication of the media, to avoid having to over tax their anchor clones few remaining brain cells.

A marvelous statement. Probably a greater depth of truth than you realize.

P.S....I spent 20 years of my life as a broadcast journalist....finally wised up and went into law enforcement. :)

Apocalypsenerd
01-21-2011, 11:15 PM
Social perception is changing for sure.

trashman
01-22-2011, 7:25 AM
The idea that all liberals hate guns, and all conservitives like the second ammendment is mostly a fabrication of the media, to avoid having to over tax their anchor clones few remaining brain cells.

This is certainly true, but it's worth remembering that the perception is one that many folks (even on this board) agree to -- for the same reason.

The intellectual ambiguity of Democrats or Liberals liking guns (and why they resist gun control) is just too nuanced for some folks who want to see the issue as black-and-white.

The reality is that (I think) most gun owners want to use the law the way most liberals *used* to want to use it: to protect the rights of those in the minority.

What's happened is that non-gun-owning elements of the left and the right prefer to use the law as a hammer to compel people to do things -- as a matter of policy preference -- that they would otherwise not do.

--Neill

San FranPsycho
01-22-2011, 10:55 AM
As someone living and going to school in San Francisco I can tell you that from my experience that people's opinions on gun control very rarely have anything to do with their political views. The few people I know who are truly "anti-gun" are either people who have never fired guns, never grew up respecting them, are intimidated by them (which is not hard to understand, growing up in a family that never owned guns and was likewise intimidated by them rubbed off on me - it is surprising how intimidating guns are in real life when your only exposure to them is in movies and TV) and only hear about gun violence therefore getting sucked into the gun control Brady fever, or they are people who have suffered from or know someone who has suffered from a traumatic incident involving firearms and unfortunately misplaces the blame on the inanimate object (the firearm) itself.

And even of the people I know who are "anti-gun" the majority of them are far more receptive to shotguns and featureless, non evilblack rifles. The majority of the misplaced anti-gun sentiment, I feel, is directed towards handguns and "Scary" guns like ARs and AKs.

I have shown dozens of people and family newfound respect for guns after explaining the importance and history of the 2nd amendment to them and detailing the racist and prejudiced history of gun control as a means to control certain groups of people. It would be wise in the future not to immediately associate someone who you consider a "democrat" or "liberal" as inherently "anti-gun" :)

VegasND
01-22-2011, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the link. I'll be forwarding the text to some others, including several teachers at my school.

I don't do such things often.

Mofo-Kang
01-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Interesting article. After reading Baum's analysis, one might reasonably ask why progressives would want gun control at all.

Not all of us do.

formerTexan
01-22-2011, 9:02 PM
An excellent article, that man clearly knows the score is.

And the below quote pretty much sums up why:

Gun control not only does no practical good, it actively causes harm. It may be hard to show that it saves lives, but it's easy to demonstrate that we've sacrificed a generation of progress on things like health care, women's rights, immigration reform, income fairness, and climate change because we keep messing with people's guns.

Disagree with the left on some of those issues (or at least in how to deal with them) though many of us may, it is a point that the left must be convinced of for us to win the war.

And this blew it for me. I suppose that is par for the course for being on huffpo. I mean, "income fairness"? Is that what we call re-distribution of wealth via confiscatory tax rates now?

Gun control does no practical good because it doesn't prevent bad people from doing bad things with or without guns, and takes away freedoms from law abiding people. Maybe he had to "play to his audience"... :confused:

Zebra
01-22-2011, 9:34 PM
And this blew it for me. I suppose that is par for the course for being on huffpo. I mean, "income fairness"? Is that what we call re-distribution of wealth via confiscatory tax rates now?

Gun control does no practical good because it doesn't prevent bad people from doing bad things with or without guns, and takes away freedoms from law abiding people. Maybe he had to "play to his audience"... :confused:

...and this blew it for me. I mean, ideological purity means more than gaining common ground? :confused:

keefbeef
01-23-2011, 12:11 AM
Seriously. We need to abandon the anti-left attitude and each take a liberal and teach them how to shoot. You'd be amazed how many are at least interested in learning how to handle a gun, if you only take the time to ask.

It is true that a slim majority of gun grabbers are leftists, but that doesn't mean that leftists are gun grabbers. Most are simply uninformed, and showing them a gun, teaching them how to handle it safely, and letting them experience even an hour at the range...

Well, let's say it's a hell of a lot more fun than yelling at each other for the same hour.

:iagree: This is exactly how I got here. An acquaintance invited me out to the range to shoot a bunch of handguns from his collection. I went, quickly got over my initial hesitation, and had a blast (figuratively speaking, of course :D).

That was 8+ years ago and I didn't think much of it until last year. Long story short: I got the itch/wanted to exercise my right, lurked here for a while, bought my first handgun last month, and just today I picked up my first rifle to keep it company... :gunsmilie:

VegasND
01-23-2011, 5:06 AM
Welcome to the world of gun ownership. Be jealous of your rights and wary of infringement.

Invite lots of people to go shooting and talk about your interest with them; they talk about their interests with others, so you can too.
...
That was 8+ years ago and I didn't think much of it until last year. Long story short: I got the itch/wanted to exercise my right, lurked here for a while, bought my first handgun last month, and just today I picked up my first rifle to keep it company... :gunsmilie:

formerTexan
01-23-2011, 8:53 AM
...and this blew it for me. I mean, ideological purity means more than gaining common ground? :confused:

No, he didn't say the correct thing about why gun control doesn't work. His reason is for it is because it caused his issues/agenda to not come to fruition, rather than the real reason why gun control is bad.

Sutcliffe
01-23-2011, 12:41 PM
With the liberal elite represented by the likes above I say it is a very small foot in the door. Still, it is progress.
Maybe we can make some inroads.....