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View Full Version : ATF Ruling Expected on Monday on Saiga


yellowfin
01-21-2011, 7:25 AM
Oh crap.

This is the problem with the ATF having unlimited power to rule by regulatory fiat.

http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/1/20/atf-to-issue-new-ruling-on-monday-regarding-new-restrictions-on-shotgun-importation

Today, the ATF announced at the 2011 SHOT Show that a new ruling would be issued on Monday, January 24, 2011, regarding the importability of certain shotguns. ATF informed the audience at the ATF Townhall meeting that they wanted to ensure that they were properly and justly enforcing the requirements of a shotgun being for a “sporting purpose.”

This is definitely concerning given the huge demand for certain shotguns like the Saiga platform, which has seen a noticeable increase in demand. While ATF would not comment on which shotguns will be named in this ruling, I would not be surprised to hear that the Saiga is going to be mentioned in the ruling, given the large capacity magazines and feeding devices that are now available.

Some may remember that ATF determined that the USAS-12 was a Destructive Device because it had “no sporting purpose,” and had a barrel diameter of more than 1/2 inch. The determination that it had no sporting purpose was largely because of the semi-automatic shotgun having large magazine and drum feeding devices, for which, ATF said there would be no sporting purpose...

BiggSean
01-21-2011, 7:28 AM
As an owner of a legally configured Saiga 12 shotgun, I will be monitoring this issue.

I wonder how this would effect those that currently own such shotguns?

ZombieTactics
01-21-2011, 7:32 AM
"Sporting Purpose" ... weasel language used to create a pretense of an official standard, when in fact it's just code for "we in our enlightened wisdom don't like it"

n2k
01-21-2011, 7:37 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=386823

RomanDad
01-21-2011, 8:42 AM
Why is the ATF still using the "Sporting Purpose" language when the Supreme Court has ruled that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is "Self Defense"?

yellowfin
01-21-2011, 8:50 AM
Why is the ATF still using the "Sporting Purpose" language when the Supreme Court has ruled that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is "Self Defense"?Because they can. Currently there is no check on their ability to make up law at will nor any adverse consequences for them doing so. It looks like they're being the Grinch just for the sake of grinching.

jnojr
01-21-2011, 8:50 AM
Why is the ATF still using the "Sporting Purpose" language when the Supreme Court has ruled that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is "Self Defense"?

Because they can. Because nobody will tell them they can't. Because they will never lose their jobs, pensions, and benefits for doing so.

Knuckle Dragger
01-21-2011, 8:55 AM
Go you YouTube and search "USPSA Saiga" and you'll see Saigas that are very sporting.

MudCamper
01-21-2011, 8:58 AM
Why is the ATF still using the "Sporting Purpose" language when the Supreme Court has ruled that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is "Self Defense"?

Exactly. WTF.

Because they can.

Because they can.

Post Heller, they can't, legally anyway.

robcoe
01-21-2011, 8:58 AM
****, I need to find an FFL that stocks them in the Long Beach area.

Mstnpete
01-21-2011, 8:59 AM
I wonder if it's for this:

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ksg-tfb.jpg

Specifications
Caliber 12 gauge 2.75"
Capacity 14+1
Magazine(s) Two 7 round tube magazines
Finish Black
Barrel 18.5"
Overall Length 26.1"
Weight 6.9 lbs (unloaded), 8.5 lbs (loaded)
Width 3"
MSRP (Price) Not yet announced.
Availability 2011

MudCamper
01-21-2011, 9:01 AM
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ksg-tfb.jpg

Specifications
Caliber 12 gauge 2.75"
Capacity 14+1
Magazine(s) Two 7 round tube magazines
Finish Black
Barrel 18.5"
Overall Length 26.1"
Weight 6.9 lbs (unloaded), 8.5 lbs (loaded)
Width 3"
MSRP (Price) Not yet announced.
Availability 2011

Sweet! OMG I gotta have one of these. Is the length limit for pump shotguns different in CA than nationally?

Wherryj
01-21-2011, 9:07 AM
Does anyone else wonder if this also has something to do with the new Kel Tec? It doesn't appear to have been designed solely with "sporting" in mind.

Wherryj
01-21-2011, 9:09 AM
Because they can. Currently there is no check on their ability to make up law at will nor any adverse consequences for them doing so. It looks like they're being the Grinch just for the sake of grinching.

I disagree with using the "Grinch" term. The Grinch actually learned and changed. That was the moral of the story. I can't see these guys "pulling a Grinch".

I've read that story so often to my two boys that I have it memorized.

yellowfin
01-21-2011, 9:10 AM
I can easily use a KSG for "sporting use" as a bear defense gun for hiking and fishing. Isn't the number one recommendation vs. bears a 12 gauge slug? The KSG is perfect for that: short as legally possible without being a SBS yet infinitely more useful than a pistol grip only shotgun.

yellowfin
01-21-2011, 9:13 AM
I disagree with using the "Grinch" term. The Grinch actually learned and changed. That was the moral of the story. I can't see these guys "pulling a Grinch".

I've read that story so often to my two boys that I have it memorized.
OK, so what else can we call it?

Mv3M-XotQkQ

1911su16b870
01-21-2011, 9:14 AM
Problem is no one has shown ATF that shooting/markmanship competitions are sporting purposes.

Lrchops
01-21-2011, 9:17 AM
I wonder if it's for this:

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ksg-tfb.jpg

Specifications
Caliber 12 gauge 2.75"
Capacity 14+1
Magazine(s) Two 7 round tube magazines
Finish Black
Barrel 18.5"
Overall Length 26.1"
Weight 6.9 lbs (unloaded), 8.5 lbs (loaded)
Width 3"
MSRP (Price) Not yet announced.
Availability 2011

I am ready to order. I am thinking they will be perfectly legal in California?! Might have to put a 4 round plug in it!! Unless your a PoPo

yellowfin
01-21-2011, 9:19 AM
Problem is no one has shown ATF that shooting/markmanship competitions are sporting purposes.Agreed, for 3 gun matches, non-traditional shotguns are ideal. But that doesn't concern the ATF. They don't care about how accurate their claim is, they want to say NO any way they can think of to as many things as possible. They are the NO men, the agency of NO, the NO Patrol. I wonder if they're thinking of moving their office to ReNO or FresNO.

badicedog
01-21-2011, 9:22 AM
I played with the Keltec shotgun at SHOT. Only $600 and fully Kommiefornia compliant!

Mstnpete
01-21-2011, 9:23 AM
I am ready to order. I am thinking they will be perfectly legal in California?! Might have to put a 4 round plug in it!! Unless your a PoPo

Plugs are not needed: Capacity 14+1
Magazine(s) Two 7 round tube magazines

7 rounds per tube and there are 2 mag tubes. So it's even less than 10 rounders per tube.

greasemonkey
01-21-2011, 9:24 AM
Why is the ATF still using the "Sporting Purpose" language when the Supreme Court has ruled that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is "Self Defense"?

Because some whack-job left-wingnut went on a murdering rampage in a crowd in Tucson, with a handgun, so we need to more strictly regulate the importation of certain shotguns...duh...

Mstnpete
01-21-2011, 9:25 AM
I played with the Keltec shotgun at SHOT. Only $600 and fully Kommiefornia compliant!

Wow, I'm getting one as well. :D

jtmkinsd
01-21-2011, 9:27 AM
Plugs are not needed: Capacity 14+1
Magazine(s) Two 7 round tube magazines

7 rounds per tube and there are 2 mag tubes. So it's even less than 10 rounders per tube.

Tubular feeding devices are exempt anyway.

Maestro Pistolero
01-21-2011, 9:32 AM
Why is the ATF still using the "Sporting Purpose" language when the Supreme Court has ruled that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is "Self Defense"?

Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

greasemonkey
01-21-2011, 9:32 AM
Agreed, for 3 gun matches, non-traditional shotguns are ideal. But that doesn't concern the ATF. They don't care about how accurate their claim is, they want to say NO any way they can think of to as many things as possible. They are the NO men, the agency of NO, the NO Patrol. I wonder if they're thinking of moving their office to ReNO or FresNO.

Nah, they wouldn't move to Fresno, too many gang-bangers here would shoot at them. Good to know the cartels & home invasion rings will be well armed, though...by home invasion rings, I didn't mean the alphabet soup, I meant the other guys on gov't payroll(welfare).

Mstnpete
01-21-2011, 9:33 AM
Tubular feeding devices are exempt anyway.

Even better! As long as it's non rotating.

wash
01-21-2011, 9:46 AM
Isn't the Keltec made in the USA?

If it's not imported there is no sporting rule.

I think they are looking at Saigas.

But the whole sporting purpose rule is stupid.

On another note did that Chicago gun grabber get the top position at ATF or is someone else still pulling the strings?

badicedog
01-21-2011, 9:47 AM
So what happens to current Saiga12 owners? Any grandfather clause?

wash
01-21-2011, 10:04 AM
ATF can only restrict import.

They could try to classify the Saiga 12 as a destructive device but that's a strech and I think owners would have a registration period and could keep their guns (except in states that outlaw DDs).

Abominog
01-21-2011, 10:20 AM
I think it's about time that "Sporting Purposes" is reviewed by the courts. I have no doubt it wouldn't make it past the current SCOTUS.