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View Full Version : Local gun store says you have to be 21 to buy ANYTHING with a Pistol Grip.


ChrisO
01-20-2011, 1:59 PM
Which I then replied to with (That is false) and continue to have a fun talk with more than one employee stating they called the ATF and " The ATF said so" I said well the ATF is not the DOJ and does not decide on state law which a employee replied (but they are the ones who review the 4473's). So please help me out here so I can print this up and take it down there to show the employees. I do not want to purchase a PG gun I have plenty, I just want them to quit spreading this BS.

dmcag69
01-20-2011, 2:05 PM
What store, location?

ChrisO
01-20-2011, 2:09 PM
I don't want to out the store as it is a owned by a friends father. If I'm not mistaken a PG on a rifle/shotgun does not change the status of the firearm and it is still considered a rifle and or shotgun wich you only have to be 18 to buy. Correct?

BKinzey
01-20-2011, 2:12 PM
Where on the 4473 would they put down that a rifle or a shotgun has a pistol grip? So how are the Feds going to know?

Robidouxs
01-20-2011, 2:21 PM
We need to know. This is a wrong against all current and future gun owners.

halifax
01-20-2011, 2:21 PM
If the "longgun" only has a pistol grip (no stock) it is not a longgun and can't be sold to those under 21.

Kharn
01-20-2011, 2:25 PM
If the longgun only has a pistol grip (no stock) it is not a longgun and can't be sold to those under 21.+1
Only a "rifle" or "shotgun" can be sold to someone under 21 by an FFL. A 12ga firearm with only a pistol grip (no stock) is not a shotgun, a 1919A4 is not a rifle.

wildhawker
01-20-2011, 2:37 PM
When the NRA or other similar cases on 18-21 handgun purchase/possession win up, this issue will go away.

-Brandon

Librarian
01-20-2011, 2:41 PM
If the "longgun" only has a pistol grip (no stock) it is not a longgun and can't be sold to those under 21.

+1
Only a "rifle" or "shotgun" can be sold to someone under 21 by an FFL. A 12ga firearm with only a pistol grip (no stock) is not a shotgun, a 1919A4 is not a rifle.

BATFE says those things that are not rifles or shotguns or pistols/revolvers are 'other weapons' and AOW requires 21.

But, a fully assembled, CA-legal AR pattern or AK pattern rifle with a pistol grip is a rifle, and a stocked shotgun with a pistol grip is a shotgun - perfectly legal to sell those to 18-19-20 if they are otherwise eligible.

rromeo
01-20-2011, 2:42 PM
"Only a pistol grip" is different than the title. "Anything with a pistol grip" includes many rifles and shotguns, which are legal for an 18 year old person to buy.

Kharn
01-20-2011, 2:54 PM
BATFE says those things that are not rifles or shotguns or pistols/revolvers are 'other weapons' and AOW requires 21.

But, a fully assembled, CA-legal AR pattern or AK pattern rifle with a pistol grip is a rifle, and a stocked shotgun with a pistol grip is a shotgun - perfectly legal to sell those to 18-19-20 if they are otherwise eligible.AOW is a specific firearm under Title II (National Firearms Act), there are "Title I firearms" that fall outside the definitions of pistol, rifle and shotgun that do not meet the definitions for any Title II firearms (such as the Mossberg Cruiser and the semiauto 1919A4).

halifax
01-20-2011, 2:58 PM
"Only a pistol grip" is different than the title. "Anything with a pistol grip" includes many rifles and shotguns, which are legal for an 18 year old person to buy.

Yes, that is differnet than what the OP posted but the "only a pistol grip" discussion may help to explain the FFL's confusion.

CHS
01-20-2011, 3:09 PM
AOW is a specific firearm under Title II (National Firearms Act), there are "Title I firearms" that fall outside the definitions of pistol, rifle and shotgun that do not meet the definitions for any Title II firearms (such as the Mossberg Cruiser and the semiauto 1919A4).

That's exactly what Librarian already said. He was simply including AOW's as well.

ChrisO
01-20-2011, 3:28 PM
I was speaking of anything with a pistol grip. I know that you have to be 21 to buy a cruiser or something that is PGO but I said ANYTHING with a pistol grip. My friend who is 20 tried to buy a remington 870 with a speedfeed LE stock that is a stock with a PG and they refused, Same thing with AR's. I want to print something up so they can correct their confusion. I understand they have the right to refuse service but I would like to at least let them know the TRUTH.

ChrisO
01-20-2011, 3:28 PM
Is there some PC's someone can put up that specifies these areas? If so I would greatly appreciate it!

rromeo
01-20-2011, 3:48 PM
There isn't much to print up for a law that doesn't exist.
It IS legal for somebody 18,19, or 20 to buy a rifle or shotgun with a stock. There is no law that says it can't also have a pistol grip.

Librarian
01-20-2011, 4:01 PM
Is there some PC's someone can put up that specifies these areas? If so I would greatly appreciate it!

No, this is a federal thing, mostly, with a small CA component.

The base item is 18 USC 922 (b)(1) (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and,
if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle,
to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age

"if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, ", must be 21.

CA echoes some of that in a couple places - Penal Code 12072(a)(3) (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/4/s12072) (3)(A)No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or
transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an
individual under 21 years of age.
but CA is not making the distinction that BATFE is in this letter (http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2009/07/070709-openletter-ffl-gca.pdf) (.pdf)

Silly thing won't let me cut and paste the paragraphs, but the key info is "First,an FFL may not sell a frame or receiver to anyone under 21 years of age..." because "a frame or receiver does not have the features required for a shotgun or a rifle".

Yes, it's true that AOWs also require 21; these frames or receivers actually are not AOWs (that is a special definition, as Kharn points out), but BATFE doesn't say exactly what they are, just that they are not rifles or shotguns or handguns.

So, the rule is, approximately, through an FFL, complete long guns OK for 18-19-20 (and 21 and older). Anything else, 21 or older. Going back to the original post, 'pistol grips' don't mean anything for age-to-purchase.

San FranPsycho
01-20-2011, 4:07 PM
so i'm 19 and i can buy a shotgun with a regular stock, take it off and put a PG on, and it's legal, but I can't walk out the door of a store with a PG shotgun unless i'm 21? wow

jaustin612
01-20-2011, 4:50 PM
EH, Minnesota has a stupid law like that too, I could buy a remmy 870, a pistol grip kit and the tools to do it, at the age of 18, but I couldnt buy a PG shotgun from the store like that till I was 21...

J.D.Allen
01-20-2011, 4:57 PM
Gunstore FUD huh? What a surprise. :rolleyes:

Wherryj
01-20-2011, 5:02 PM
Where on the 4473 would they put down that a rifle or a shotgun has a pistol grip? So how are the Feds going to know?

There isn't even a spot to put down whether said long gun is a rifle, a shotgun or an "evil, black baby-killing weapon of mass destruction rifle".

Kharn
01-20-2011, 5:49 PM
There isn't even a spot to put down whether said long gun is a rifle, a shotgun or an "evil, black baby-killing weapon of mass destruction rifle".4473 Question 18: "Handgun", "Long gun (rifles and shotguns)" and/or "Other Firearm (frame, receiver, etc, see instructions for question 18)" with instruction 18 stating:
Question 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. “Other”
refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or
long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel
a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is
still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are
“firearms” by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other
firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it
unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any
person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include
one that can only be made into a long gun, is a “firearm other than a shotgun
or rifle,” it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note
that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any
firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not “pistols or revolvers”
under Section 923(g)(3)(a).

Question 18 is completed by the FFL, so most buyers never see it.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-20-2011, 10:06 PM
EH, Minnesota has a stupid law like that too, I could buy a remmy 870, a pistol grip kit and the tools to do it, at the age of 18, but I couldnt buy a PG shotgun from the store like that till I was 21...

It's a Federal law, so it applies to transfers done by FFLs in all States.