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View Full Version : FFLs can buy hicaps for their own use?


Mimi_T
01-20-2011, 11:38 AM
Sorry for the noob thread title and probably equally noob question, but something occurred to me earlier today.

If CA-licensed FFLs are exempt from the prohibition of purchasing standard/hicap mags, does that mean that if I want to have hicap mags all I need to do is become an FFL?

Would it work by becoming a C&R FFL? (Since they can purchase things from out of state, would that include mags too, or only if the mags are 50+ years old and so on?)

Is my idea completely stupid, or would it be a legal way to get hicap mags? (And if the C&R one isn't the right one, then which type of FFL would work?)

Please feel free to delete my thread if needed for any reason, and if the question is just idiotic please don't throw rocks or anything. :p

Thanks in advance for anyone answering my question.


Edit: Thank you to everybody who answered! Wow, that was fast!
Oh well, I should have known that if the solution was this simple, everyone in CA would have gone for a C&R FFL already... :p (I kind of figured there had to be something preventing it from being this simple, but I wanted to cling to the hope and ask just in case.)

Pred@tor
01-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Move to a freer state is your best bet bub.

IrishPirate
01-20-2011, 11:41 AM
nope. can only "buy" to sell to exempt people like LEOs and military. can't buy for anything other than business use. i think only 01FFL's and 07FFL's can buy and sell hi-caps

rromeo
01-20-2011, 11:42 AM
No. FFLs can get a permit to sell large capacity magazines to non-restricted people, but it's not for their own use. An 03 can't get a permit because an 03 isn't selling anything.

fd15k
01-20-2011, 12:39 PM
No. FFLs can get a permit to sell large capacity magazines to non-restricted people, but it's not for their own use. An 03 can't get a permit because an 03 isn't selling anything.

Isn't that a permit for importation ? And folks discovered the language in the law which says FFL01's can sell/buy to/from whoever they want, just not manufacture or import without a permit ?

Shiboleth
01-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Can anyone show language stating that an FFL cannot use a hicap for personal use? If possession is not illegal, then the only legal issue is how it was obtained. If FFL's are allowed to obtain them legally, what's to stop them from personal use?

wellerjohn
01-20-2011, 1:03 PM
Sure bet they could......test them to make sure they work.....before selling:D

Kharn
01-20-2011, 1:26 PM
Isn't that a permit for importation ? And folks discovered the language in the law which says FFL01's can sell/buy to/from whoever they want, just not manufacture or import without a permit ?03 FFL is a Curio and Relic collector's license.

zhyla
01-20-2011, 1:47 PM
Can anyone show language stating that an FFL cannot use a hicap for personal use? If possession is not illegal, then the only legal issue is how it was obtained. If FFL's are allowed to obtain them legally, what's to stop them from personal use?

I don't doubt this to be 100% true. But I don't see what good it does anyone, becoming an FFL01 is a huge hassle.

CHS
01-20-2011, 2:07 PM
The permit allows the 01 or 07 FFL to import/manufacture/transfer large-capacity magazines. The permit allows an FFL to come into possession of a large-capacity magazine in a lawful manner. There is no law saying they can't just keep them once they are in their possession.

So yes, an 01 or 07 FFL with a large-capacity magazine permit, which is typically issued in order for them to be able to either manufacture or sell large-capacity magazines to military/leo (or outside-CA sales), CAN in fact buy large-capacity magazines for themselves.

None of this applies to an 03 FFL however, and an 01/07 still has to apply for the permit and show "good cause" (i.e. a business need) in order to receive it. This usually includes letters from police officers or departments stating an intent to buy.

Mimi_T
01-20-2011, 2:39 PM
The permit allows the 01 or 07 FFL to import/manufacture/transfer large-capacity magazines. The permit allows an FFL to become into possession of a large-capacity magazine in a lawful manner. There is no law saying they can't just keep them once they are in their possession.

So yes, an 01 or 07 FFL with a large-capacity magazine permit, which is typically issued in order for them to be able to either manufacture or sell large-capacity magazines to military/leo (or outside-CA sales), CAN in fact buy large-capacity magazines for themselves.

None of this applies to an 03 FFL however, and an 01/07 still has to apply for the permit and show "good cause" (i.e. a business need) in order to receive it. This usually includes letters from police officers or departments stating an intent to buy.

Thank you for the additional info! That's interesting to know, even if sad to find out it's hard to get FFL 01/07.
It's pretty much what I had been thinking/fearing (even if the optimistic side of me had clung to the hope it might be a way around the problem :p), although I only had a fuzzy idea of how it might work.

Too bad that it's only possible for 01/07, and not for 03, since it seems like 03 would be the easiest to get.
I was hoping there was an FFL type that one can get without it being a big hassle, but I figure that if it were the case... we'd all have done that already and it would be common knowledge like the BBs.

nhanson
01-20-2011, 6:41 PM
None of this applies to an 03 FFL however, and an 01/07 still has to apply for the permit and show "good cause" (i.e. a business need) in order to receive it. This usually includes letters from police officers or departments stating an intent to buy.

As an 07 FFL, I only had to pen a statement stating my business need for a large capacity magazine permit and that is coupled with my CFD number for operation in CA. The PD letters are for the AW permit.

Enjoy

xenophobe
01-20-2011, 10:24 PM
The permit allows the 01 or 07 FFL to import/manufacture/transfer large-capacity magazines. The permit allows an FFL to come into possession of a large-capacity magazine in a lawful manner. There is no law saying they can't just keep them once they are in their possession.

So yes, an 01 or 07 FFL with a large-capacity magazine permit, which is typically issued in order for them to be able to either manufacture or sell large-capacity magazines to military/leo (or outside-CA sales), CAN in fact buy large-capacity magazines for themselves.

It's not illegal for an 01 to purchase high cap mags, and DOJ will not charge an individual who would sell to a dealer to get rid of them. The high cap mag permit is required if you want to sell those in-state or if you plan on importing them.

An 01, as far as I'm aware, does not need a high cap mag permit to buy mags in-state and, for example, resell them out of state.

Then again, I could be wrong, but from the discussions I've had with DOJ this was never an issue. Then again, we also had a permit.

As for an 01 using them? I honestly don't think DOJ would care, then again, I don't know who is still working there, so get a letter?

eltee
01-21-2011, 4:13 PM
One CA DOJ/FD inspector said that the FFL w/ HiCap Mag permit was supposed to log hicap sales. True or FUD?

GrizzlyGuy
01-21-2011, 7:15 PM
One CA DOJ/FD inspector said that the FFL w/ HiCap Mag permit was supposed to log hicap sales. True or FUD?

Possibly, if that requirement is in the terms & conditions for the permit. From 12020 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html):

(26) The importation into this state of, or sale of, any
large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to
engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those
activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that
permit.

MP301
01-21-2011, 9:12 PM
FFL's get hi-cap permits to enable them to convert them to 10 rounders for resale as well....

elrcastor
01-22-2011, 4:01 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/CLlcmpapp.pdf

BigRich
01-22-2011, 9:45 PM
When I gave up my 01FFL and all the Ca DOJ permits with it (including the Hi-cap mag permit) I was allowed to keep all the magazines I had remaining in stock as my personal possessions. I was advised of this in advance by DOJ. There is no law prohibiting a poor business decision wherein you have too much stock on hand. You have to draw some conclusions from this.

xenophobe
01-23-2011, 2:13 AM
When I gave up my 01FFL and all the Ca DOJ permits with it (including the Hi-cap mag permit) I was allowed to keep all the magazines I had remaining in stock as my personal possessions. I was advised of this in advance by DOJ. There is no law prohibiting a poor business decision wherein you have too much stock on hand. You have to draw some conclusions from this.

You're right. I forgot about this.

tenpercentfirearms
01-23-2011, 6:41 AM
One CA DOJ/FD inspector said that the FFL w/ HiCap Mag permit was supposed to log hicap sales. True or FUD?

This is only partially true.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3318061&postcount=18

I only log importation and exportation as required by CCR 5483.