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View Full Version : Legality of conversion? flare pistol to cobray/leinad derringer?


AJAX22
01-19-2011, 9:09 PM
I came across this interesting product at KY imports (59.99)

http://www.kyimports.com/images/FMJ%2012%20gauge%20Marine%20Flare%20Launcher%20new %20in%20box.jpg

http://www.kyimports.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84&products_id=291

And couldn't help but be struck by the resembelence of the frame to a cobray FMJ derringer...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/120279/903425577/wm_md_1955490.jpg

As near as I can tell, they took a cobray derringer and stuck a zytel barrel on it and somehow the atf classified it as a flare pistol.

so...

Since the design is identical to one produced by a licenced manufacturer... wouldn't that avoid zip gun classification if converted?

Just buy a cobray barrel and swap it over.

thoughts?

tgriffin
01-19-2011, 9:15 PM
Gtg as long as it can't chamber a shotgun shell of any gauge.

Humbly suggest first round fired out of frankenflare be done from a mechanical rest with shooter behind cover.

motorhead
01-19-2011, 10:34 PM
can you say kaboom? look closely at the frame on the flaregun. might be ok in .22.

Lone_Gunman
01-19-2011, 10:54 PM
Is the frame on the flare gun plastic? Not that there anything wrong with that, I own a Glock and an XD...

Dead*Reckoned
01-19-2011, 11:07 PM
The frame is made of steel, and it employs a break-open design.
Seems gtg!

N6ATF
01-20-2011, 1:04 AM
Have a source for barrels? I see full Cobray Derringers on gunbroker ranging from $97.95 to $179.95.

AJAX22
01-20-2011, 4:55 AM
Have a source for barrels? I see full Cobray Derringers on gunbroker ranging from $97.95 to $179.95.

i would contact

Leinad
221 Hwy, 68 North
P.O. Box579
Ducktown, TN 37326
(423) 496-7060

or possibly here (not sure which cal this is... if it is .45/410 its a no go for ca

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=1261400&filter=fmj&catid=0

CHS
01-20-2011, 8:22 AM
Since the design is identical to one produced by a licenced manufacturer... wouldn't that avoid zip gun classification if converted?


The zip gun law doesn't require that the gun be identical to one produced by a licensed manufacturer anyways. Read the zip gun laws again, they really only apply to any Title 2 firearms where a tax is owed and not Title 1's where self-manufacture requires no tax.

B Strong
01-20-2011, 8:36 AM
I came across this interesting product at KY imports (59.99)

http://www.kyimports.com/images/FMJ%2012%20gauge%20Marine%20Flare%20Launcher%20new %20in%20box.jpg

http://www.kyimports.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84&products_id=291

And couldn't help but be struck by the resembelence of the frame to a cobray FMJ derringer...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/120279/903425577/wm_md_1955490.jpg

As near as I can tell, they took a cobray derringer and stuck a zytel barrel on it and somehow the atf classified it as a flare pistol.

so...

Since the design is identical to one produced by a licenced manufacturer... wouldn't that avoid zip gun classification if converted?

Just buy a cobray barrel and swap it over.

thoughts?

From the folks that brought us the pop-bottle barrel adaptor and the lightning link.

Get it while it's legal!

On the serious side, I doubt the durability factor of the original and the copy, and that thing might have some utility as a "get a better" piece if teotawaki comes, but other than that, bleh!

Bhobbs
01-20-2011, 9:39 AM
You can use it like a Liberator .45 ACP dropped to resistance fighters in Europe during WW2. Those things were stamped sheet metal and had no rifling or way of ejecting the same other than pushing it out with a stick from the muzzle.

You find a Nazi with a more reliable firearm and run up behind them and shoot once. Now you got yourself a K98k, Mp40 etc. Give your liberator to someone else and repeat.

Kharn
01-20-2011, 2:32 PM
You can use it like a Liberator .45 ACP dropped to resistance fighters in Europe during WW2. Those things were stamped sheet metal and had no rifling or way of ejecting the same other than pushing it out with a stick from the muzzle.

You find a Nazi with a more reliable firearm and run up behind them and shoot once. Now you got yourself a K98k, Mp40 etc. Give your liberator to someone else and repeat.It wasn't a stick, it was an ejector rod that just happened to be made out of a wooden dowel. :p

AJAX22
01-20-2011, 2:54 PM
The zip gun law doesn't require that the gun be identical to one produced by a licensed manufacturer anyways. Read the zip gun laws again, they really only apply to any Title 2 firearms where a tax is owed and not Title 1's where self-manufacture requires no tax.

I agree, however the current feeling among the guys who would be defending you on that particular charge is that its a much easier case to make if it is a mimic of a design produced by a licensed manufacturer.

I'm not sure that a new barrel would even be nececary...

You could epoxy a .22LR rifled steel adapter into the zytel barrel and it should hold up.

http://mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

so you would have a .22 derringer for about 120 bucks out the door

You could also buy the .410 barrel and have it sleeved to .38spl permanently..or .32acp, or .22...

AJAX22
02-09-2011, 7:10 AM
I was able to get ahold of the guys at Leinad, and confirmed that the FMJ flare gun has the same frame as the FMJ derringer.

The only difference is that the flare gun has a slightly larger pivot pin.

To fit a derringer barrel you just have to slightly enlarge the pivot hole on the barrel.

It will work, and it will work quite well.

gozuki
02-09-2011, 7:49 AM
Wouldn't the .22 sleeve need to be offset for the firing pin to hit the rim, instead of centerfired?

AJAX22
02-09-2011, 7:51 AM
Wouldn't the .22 sleeve need to be offset for the firing pin to hit the rim, instead of centerfired?

.22 adapters for 12 gauge already come offset.

Some Guy
02-09-2011, 9:30 AM
You should probably paint it something other than Orange before making it a firearm in CA.

wash
02-09-2011, 9:50 AM
Will they sell barrels?

AJAX22
02-09-2011, 10:16 AM
Will they sell barrels?

I am working on getting a shop in CA that will be stocking both the flare guns,

AND a steady supply of barrels/parts kits for their entire product line.

as well as the complete guns.

The shop is also gauging interest in a run of the 410/45LC double barrel pistols that are chambered in .45LC only

as well as .38/357 barrels ...

we'll see how it plays out.

The shop's main concern is fronting a bunch of money and then you guys don't want to buy them...

thedrickel
02-09-2011, 11:27 AM
I am working on getting a shop in CA that will be stocking both the flare guns,

AND a steady supply of barrels/parts kits for their entire product line.

as well as the complete guns.

The shop is also gauging interest in a run of the 410/45LC double barrel pistols that are chambered in .45LC only

as well as .38/357 barrels ...

we'll see how it plays out.

The shop's main concern is fronting a bunch of money and then you guys don't want to buy them...


I'm having flashbacks . . .

AJAX22
02-09-2011, 11:52 AM
I'm having flashbacks . . .

Lol, yep...

Cool for cool sake is great if you're doing it for yourself.... but anything done on any scale has to be profitable.

CCWFacts
02-09-2011, 12:12 PM
The shop's main concern is fronting a bunch of money and then you guys don't want to buy them...

It's cool that this is a loophole allowing selling of these things. However, who really wants crappy little Derringers like that? Is there really any demand? I can't remember ever seeing someone owning or shooting one of those. I wouldn't want one at any price.

AJAX22
02-09-2011, 12:17 PM
It's cool that this is a loophole allowing selling of these things. However, who really wants crappy little Derringers like that? Is there really any demand? I can't remember ever seeing someone owning or shooting one of those. I wouldn't want one at any price.

at 50-70 bucks each, with no paperwork in CA?

I'd pick up 10 of them to bury for a rainy day..
Not a bad little 'liberator'

the reason you don't remember ever seeing someone owning or shooting one is because most of them are considered SBS's in CA and they are not drop safety approved guns..

out in free america they are a decent little snake gun that a lot of people keep in their tackle box

Its not a BAD gun... .just a cheap gun...

wash
02-09-2011, 3:49 PM
Uh, who would drop one of these ;-)

CHS
02-09-2011, 4:02 PM
Uh, who would drop one of these ;-)

I would.

Thousands out of the back of a plane into occupied territory :)

dantodd
02-09-2011, 4:24 PM
I thought we are in occupied territory.

ptoguy2002
02-09-2011, 5:39 PM
Issue with it being an AOW under federal law???
Non firearm converted to a firearm?

AJAX22
02-09-2011, 5:46 PM
Issue with it being an AOW under federal law???
Non firearm converted to a firearm?

AOW only applies if it is left as a smoothbore... with a rifled bore it is just a handgun under fed/state law.

There is nothing that states a non firearm cannot be converted into a firearm so long as it looks like a firearm.

It is legal to buy and then to convert to a pistol.

Nothing grey area about it.

CCWFacts
02-09-2011, 5:54 PM
at 50-70 bucks each, with no paperwork in CA?

I still don't want one but I can think of some use cases:


I guess it would be handy for people to get for their disaster preparedness kits
They would want both barrels so they could use it for shooting flares or for shooting lead!
After a disaster there will be Katrina-style firearms confiscations (I realize it's illegal under California law but it will happen anyway). Might be handy to have a disposable gun for that purpose.
GUN BUYBACKS! Gun buybacks generally offer about $100 per handgun. DROS fees are too high to make it possible for ordinary people to buy DROSable handguns and then make a profit at a buyback (DROS + the cheapest handgun > $100). But this plan doesn't require DROS fees, so it could be a good way to make a profit, which hopefully would be donated to the NRA.

CHS
02-09-2011, 8:50 PM
GUN BUYBACKS! Gun buybacks generally offer about $100 per handgun. DROS fees are too high to make it possible for ordinary people to buy DROSable handguns and then make a profit at a buyback (DROS + the cheapest handgun > $100). But this plan doesn't require DROS fees, so it could be a good way to make a profit, which hopefully would be donated to the NRA.


I think we have a winner here! :)

If gun buybacks actually became profitable for US by buying these up and converting them to real arms, and then we funneled all the money into the NRA, I would do this every chance I got.

Hell, maybe someone on calguns could get a distributor account with Leinad and re-sell these things for pennies on the dollar (would have to be altruistic to support the cause, without any hope of actually being profitable for them) and have the calgunners then funnel all of the profits into the NRA/CGF/CRPA/SAF.

Then later on, we do this in such mass quantities that gun buybacks shut down altogether.




I'm Effing Serious.

N6ATF
02-09-2011, 8:54 PM
The gun buybacks will simply choose not to pay for them. There have been examples of refusals to pay turners-in.

CHS
02-09-2011, 8:57 PM
The gun buybacks will simply choose not to pay for them. There have been examples of refusals to pay turners-in.

But we need to get them to that point.

Also, if we wear them down to that point then we can get the news media showing people WALKING AWAY from gun buybacks still with their guns in hand. In droves.

CHS
02-09-2011, 9:17 PM
If I could just get the Barrel/Cylinder for this guy, I will buy one of these "flare guns" in a heartbeat:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=215607119

N6ATF
02-09-2011, 9:20 PM
But we need to get them to that point.

Also, if we wear them down to that point then we can get the news media showing people WALKING AWAY from gun buybacks still with their guns in hand. In droves.

But all, or almost all gun buybacks are in GFSZs so it won't be so obvious that people are leaving with their guns if they are still in their trunks, paper bags, or backseats...

I bet pro-criminal safety media typically invited to such events (while pro-law-abiding video/photogs are typically threatened with trespass) will be loathe to publicize this, as well.

moleculo
02-10-2011, 9:14 AM
If I could just get the Barrel/Cylinder for this guy, I will buy one of these "flare guns" in a heartbeat:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=215607119

Me too. I'd probably buy more than a few of them as gifts for friends and family. I still would probably buy the flare guns if I could get *any* barrel on it's own that wasn't marked .410.

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 9:19 AM
Me too. I'd probably buy more than a few of them as gifts for friends and family. I still would probably buy the flare guns if I could get *any* barrel on it's own that wasn't marked .410.

Barrels (and barrels/cylinders) WILL be available seperatly....

Jeeez

I'm working on it guys....

Got a million things going on right now...

cdtx2001
02-10-2011, 9:22 AM
Sounds like a potential group buy here. If Cobray will sell the barrels, I want one. No wait, I'll take 10.

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 9:27 AM
I'll make it a poll to gauge interest level...

To get seperate barrels that are not .410 its probably going to require a special run or a minimum order number...

what exactly that is, I don't know yet... but we'll see if we can make a go of it.

moleculo
02-10-2011, 11:18 AM
I want one of these long barrels in .45 too! Just because it looks cool :) :) I imagine there would have to be quite a lot of interest to get these made that aren't stamped .410 also.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/215590000/215590865/pix925183316.jpg

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 11:20 AM
I want one of these long barrels in .45 too! Just because it looks cool :) :) I imagine there would have to be quite a lot of interest to get these made that aren't stamped .410 also.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/215590000/215590865/pix925183316.jpg

Like I said... I'm working on it...

going to try to get the double barrel's labeled in .45LC only too

Chris J
02-10-2011, 11:28 AM
Reminds me of the Pirate's Plague, sold to long-range cruising sailors:

http://www.diver4hire.com/products.htm

I've always wondered if the average 12-guage flare gun could stand up to the recoil, but they are pretty popular among the serious cruising crowd. In a jam, I guess they are better than nothing, and carrying a real gun is problematic at many foreign ports.

CCWFacts
02-10-2011, 1:04 PM
You forgot to add an option to your poll: "As many as I can unload at a gun buyback"

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 1:09 PM
You forgot to add an option to your poll: "As many as I can unload at a gun buyback"

I'm of mixed opinion on using these at gun buybacks....

I try to avoid supporting them.... but if the gun was MADE for the gun buyback.... well.... I'll have to ponder on that some.

moleculo
02-10-2011, 1:26 PM
I found and contacted these guys who sell the barrels and all other Leinad parts: http://www.practicaltacticalky.com

The .38/.357 is $60.

I guess the real question is on the flare gun, is the barrel selector still functional? There's one way to find out, I suppose...

Decoligny
02-10-2011, 1:45 PM
Reminds me of the Pirate's Plague, sold to long-range cruising sailors:

http://www.diver4hire.com/products.htm

I've always wondered if the average 12-guage flare gun could stand up to the recoil, but they are pretty popular among the serious cruising crowd. In a jam, I guess they are better than nothing, and carrying a real gun is problematic at many foreign ports.

I don't see a single shot being any use in defense of modern day pirates. I do however see some usefullness if you were to have it in a life raft survival kit. It would allow you to have a weapon to use for hunting, although aim might not be the greatest.

moleculo
02-10-2011, 2:29 PM
After looking at a lot of different pictures of these Cobray/Leinad guns, it seems that there is quite a bit of difference on the firing pin/adapter plate between the barrel and the hammer on various models. It doesn't look quite as simple as just putting on a new barrel to me unless you can find the correct barrel for the specific model

In this video, you can see how the firing pin selector works...it's on the hammer. You can also see that the back plate is welded to the frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ6O_MJ_mrI

Certainly the hammer can be replaced, but I think the trick is to find the barrels that fit that exact back plate on the flare gun. I ordered one of these flare guns to see if I can figure it out, or in the event that Ajax22 already has get it through his source.

dantodd
02-10-2011, 2:36 PM
I would enjoy the look on the faces of the anti-gunners if 100 people showed up with these and took all their gift cards in the first hour. Then offered to trade the cards for the guns of people coming for the buy back!

JRob
02-10-2011, 3:29 PM
I would enjoy the look on the faces of the anti-gunners if 100 people showed up with these and took all their gift cards in the first hour. Then offered to trade the cards for the guns of people coming for the buy back!

LOL - a non-war example of "use a gun to get a better gun"!

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 3:41 PM
After looking at a lot of different pictures of these Cobray/Leinad guns, it seems that there is quite a bit of difference on the firing pin/adapter plate between the barrel and the hammer on various models. It doesn't look quite as simple as just putting on a new barrel to me unless you can find the correct barrel for the specific model

In this video, you can see how the firing pin selector works...it's on the hammer. You can also see that the back plate is welded to the frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ6O_MJ_mrI

Certainly the hammer can be replaced, but I think the trick is to find the barrels that fit that exact back plate on the flare gun. I ordered one of these flare guns to see if I can figure it out, or in the event that Ajax22 already has get it through his source.

It depends on which set of barrels you use...

the .22LR six shooter will require a modified/replacement hammer.

however, the .38 single shot barrels and the .45LC/410 barrels are a drop on conversion.

and I think we can get a single shot offset .22lr barrel that will work.

:D

don't worry guys,

I'll be sure to get it as close to 'drop in' as possible for ease of conversion.

whatever parts are needed I'll get sourced

the buy back swap where you actually trade the cards you get for better guns sounds like a pretty good idea actually.... since you are sacrificing the gun only to save a better gun... and its a 1 to 1 swap.

Peter W Bush
02-10-2011, 4:00 PM
Just bought one. We'll see what happens

moleculo
02-10-2011, 4:56 PM
I've got some more info about this "project".

I just talked to Justin at http://www.practicaltacticalky.com on the phone. He said that you can drill out the barrel swing arm hole to make it fit on these flare guns but it makes the steel very thin along the edge. He said it won't hold up and it will break eventually - he's tried it apparently.

However, he does sell 80% kits to build this derringer yourself. He also claims to be the only guy that has the side plates because he had them made. (They're not part of the 80% kit, order separately, and costs $80 for a set) Here's the website with the info:

http://www.practicaltacticalky.com/Leinad.html

He said the single barrel version is very easy to finish yourself. The double barrel version is a little tricky to drill the holes correctly for the breach. He recommended having a local machine shop he uses do it (that has done tons for him). He charges $20 for that work.

Last piece of info: The .45/.410 barrels are not stamped .410 anywhere on them. So, if you want to build one of these double barrel Leinad kits, you can get the parts (with the breach drilled) for $200 shipped to your door that will take .45/.410.

Mine is on it's way :) :)

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 6:21 PM
Color me skeptical on their not being enough meat on the barrel to drill it...

Even if you doubled the size of the pivot pin (and the flare gun pins are NOT that bad) you should still have plenty of metal up front

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/justinbroutte/derringer%20build/new_build_03.jpg

I'm sending you a PM regarding the sideplates

moleculo
02-10-2011, 6:29 PM
Well I picked up one of the flare guns to try it out anyway before talking to them. After seeing that pic, I can't imagine it wouldn't work just fine.

dantodd
02-10-2011, 6:37 PM
Why not use teflon or delrin sleeves in the frame to accommodate the "gun" pin?

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 6:44 PM
Why not use teflon or delrin sleeves in the frame to accommodate the "gun" pin?

I'd probably use little brass lathe turned spacers... but there is no good reason why it wouldn't work with sleeves..

You actually would only need one sleeve...

You could grind the pin so it was stepped to fit through the firearm barrel, then use a different spacer/washer/e-clip to hold it in place from the back side..

but seriously...

there is a LOT of metal... I'd be willing to bet a $1 donation to the calguns foundation that just drilling it out will last 500 rounds without a failure using standard ammo loads.

jimx
02-10-2011, 7:45 PM
I picked up one of these flare guns 10+ years ago.

In the catalog they said it was the same frame and (breach?) as their xxx kit, letting it be known that it would be easy to turn it into a hand gun. They also said that it is illegal to turn the flare gun or their black powder guns into modern cartridge firing guns. I don't know why???

Soon after the kits didn't have the (breach the round part in back that hammer goes though) attached and now you have to weld it on.

12voltguy
02-10-2011, 10:09 PM
I came across this interesting product at KY imports (59.99)

http://www.kyimports.com/images/FMJ%2012%20gauge%20Marine%20Flare%20Launcher%20new %20in%20box.jpg





item not found, they deleted that item....

jeffsenpai
02-10-2011, 10:10 PM
I voted It depends on the cost of the barrels... I'm super cheap

My interest is in a .38/357 or even the.45/410, but heck if the cost is too high I doubt it would be worth it.

Two issues:
1. Looking at the odd shape of the grip, looks uncomfortable to shoot.
2. Material quality, why spend $150+ on an "off paper" handgun if it won't last through a full box of ammo.

Those of you out there who bit the bullet and bought one, give us a full report :D ie ease of build from 80%, quality, etc.

moleculo
02-10-2011, 10:26 PM
item not found, they deleted that item....

They didn't delete it...all the Calgunners bought them, LOL

TonyM
02-11-2011, 10:24 AM
Honestly?

Looks like garbage to me.

AJAX22
02-11-2011, 10:32 AM
I confirmed that the .45lc barrels are NOT marked with .410

Interesting....

BusBoy
02-11-2011, 10:49 AM
Found a cool little video of the FMJ 410 Derringer... Just posting for more info.

jJ6O_MJ_mrI

warbird
02-11-2011, 11:00 AM
Remington made a flare gun called the Mark III I think around 1900-1903 but it was federally outlawed since it would take a eight or ten guage shotgun shell. It was single shot and was much bigger. I would think having a flare shot at you might be worse than a round. With a round you either hit or miss but with a flare just get close enough to light everything up. Would add a whole new meaning to "I am going to light your a-- up." (LOL)

moleculo
02-11-2011, 11:06 AM
Found a cool little video of the FMJ 410 Derringer... Just posting for more info.

jJ6O_MJ_mrI

Unfortunately those .22/.45 ones aren't made anymore.

VegasND
02-11-2011, 8:03 PM
Remington made a flare gun called the Mark III I think around 1900-1903 but it was federally outlawed since it would take a eight or ten guage shotgun shell. It was single shot and was much bigger. I would think having a flare shot at you might be worse than a round. With a round you either hit or miss but with a flare just get close enough to light everything up. Would add a whole new meaning to "I am going to light your a-- up." (LOL)
Or maybe not
yTU2o3LGumI&feature=related
I've seen at least one other video of someone shooting himself in the head with a flare gun and walking around complaining about it afterward.

I'll stick to using flares as signalling devices.

AJAX22
02-11-2011, 8:10 PM
I know a guy who saw a man get shot with a 37mm Mk 8 pyrotechnic pistol at point blank range with a mil surp flare...

It took the guy 20 min to die... burning magnesium inside your chest is no joke...

but yeah... standard marine flares are not as lethal as real amunition.

Heck a 37mm flare gun loaded with black powder and shot can do some insane damage... another guy I knew used to load his own shells to shoot rabbits with...

not sporting... but quite effective

Bt Doctur
02-16-2011, 7:35 PM
Might want to read this first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/05/050406-openletter-nfa-flare-inserts.html

moleculo
02-22-2011, 6:43 PM
I got the flare gun in today and compared it with the Leinad derringer...they're dimensionally the exact same frame and parts kit. There is no reason why you couldn't put a regular Leinad single shot barrel on this thing.

The frame is stamped "FLARE LAUNCHER" on the side, though. Does that change anything legally to convert? The Leinad barrels are stamped with the caliber, so it would be obvious what it's for, but with the frame saying "flare launcher", is that a problem?

AJAX22
02-22-2011, 6:55 PM
Nope, 'flare launcher' has no legal meaning...

I can engrave it on anything I want...

Just makes it extra tasty lol

the ATF warning only applies to: These insets are smooth bore and capable of accepting a variety of different types of conventional ammunition.

note SMOOTH BORE...

they don't want to admit that if its rifled its LEGAL ;)

jisaman
02-27-2011, 5:10 PM
I have a catalog for leinad parts and kits, the key to getting a parts kit from the company is asking for a replacement parts set that is what they sale them as. There black powder, flare launcher, and derringer frames are almost identical however they require 20% of work to transform them into a derringer. Therefore it is just like buying a 80% reciever from anyone else, I have the part numbers and prices for each configuration currently offered by the company, they still make the 22 lr over 45 and they also make a 22 lr over a 410. They have many configurations in production, and I am not looking to make money just inform you of what I know from building these as a hobby. they offer about a 10 per item discount if you buy ten or more and if you were looking at buying a 45 single barrell parts set, and a flare launcher it would only be 39.95 for the launcher and 33.45 for the kits, however I have the parts numbers for only the barrels and hammers so the price should be at about 20 for the kits. Feel free to e mail me on here or at brawnson69@hotmail.com and I will give you any information you need. FREE INFORMATION on LEINAD parts :)

Calm Down
04-11-2011, 1:29 AM
It appears it can be done . You must purchase a parts kit for the derringer DD:replace the hammer: elongate the opening in the breach face: remove material from the outer area of the breach so the sights are visible. I replaced the orange grips with black ones. I did bore the barrel retention pin to 5/16, the diameter of the flare pistol frame rather than obtain an insert to change the diameter of the flare pistol barrel pivot pin to 3/16 which, is the original barrel pin diameter. I will paint it later. I did fire a .410 shell with only a primer in it, and it went "BANG!"

Have fun!

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/2336/0411110107.jpg

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1606/0411110109.jpg

Here she is with a fresh coat of flat black high heat BBQ paint.
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4653/0411111451.jpg

N6ATF
04-20-2011, 11:22 PM
Does anybody have some of these ready to use up this gun buyback money (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=423508) before all the murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc... can get their evidence destroyed and get out of jail free cards?

Mulay El Raisuli
04-21-2011, 5:47 AM
Would I buy one? I see this as a cheaper, single shot version of the "Snake Charmer" made by Bond. Which makes it a nice thing to have.


After looking at a lot of different pictures of these Cobray/Leinad guns, it seems that there is quite a bit of difference on the firing pin/adapter plate between the barrel and the hammer on various models. It doesn't look quite as simple as just putting on a new barrel to me unless you can find the correct barrel for the specific model

In this video, you can see how the firing pin selector works...it's on the hammer. You can also see that the back plate is welded to the frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ6O_MJ_mrI

Certainly the hammer can be replaced, but I think the trick is to find the barrels that fit that exact back plate on the flare gun. I ordered one of these flare guns to see if I can figure it out, or in the event that Ajax22 already has get it through his source.


Reminds me of the old 'Savage M-24.' Oh, I regret not getting my hands on one of those when I had the chance. This is cool also.


The Raisuli

wazdat
06-19-2011, 9:31 PM
3 listings on Gunbroker for $59.99. Search for FMJ Flare.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=234674124

DNA
06-19-2011, 9:48 PM
Do they fit these?

http://www.gunadapters.com/products/12-gauge-to-9mm-Luger-shotgun-adapter.html

Dan

BigBamBoo
06-19-2011, 9:56 PM
............

AJAX22
06-21-2011, 5:14 AM
just found some 1-1/2" 12 gauge shells. there called aquila mini-shells. they seem to come in #7-1/2 birdshot as well as combination buckshot (#4 and #8 together). i wonder if the fiberglass reinforced dupont zytel barrel could handle these? maybe the #7-1/2 birdshot?

that would be a felony (smoothbore AOW without a tax stamp)

aklover_91
06-21-2011, 6:20 AM
Is there still a source for these flare guns anywhere?

AJAX22
06-21-2011, 6:47 AM
I'll see what I can do

gozuki
06-24-2011, 9:16 PM
can also get those radical flechete rounds that shoot 8 steel darts in .410. tough choice. may build more than one. cheers!

CA Penal Code 12020. (a)Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any... ammunition which
contains or consists of any flechette dart. .

G-forceJunkie
06-24-2011, 10:51 PM
The revolver is pretty cool. i built one in the 90's, someone used to sell sideplates and breaches in Shotgun News and the FMJ parts kits were all over the gun shows. Its a manual revolver with 6 barrels...basically a long cylinder with an inch or so of rifling in front. I didnt see them on the http://www.practicaltacticalky.com/ web site, where are they available?i just received message from justin at www.tacticalpracticalky.com. the breach plate on the flare gun is large enough to be adapted to use with the .22 cal. revolver kit (leinad model r). i may go this route. a six shot .22 would be a fun little plinker. although you can get a chamber adapter in .22 for a .410 chamber. hmm? can get flares and pepper gas and rubber bullets in .410. can also get those radical flechete rounds that shoot 8 steel darts in .410. tough choice. may build more than one. cheers!

bohoki
06-25-2011, 11:16 PM
anybody remember federal ordinance right before they went out of biz

they were selling a little brass cap and ball derringer and a 22 lr barrel insert

you had to drill out the breech and epoxy the insert in

Glock22Fan
06-28-2011, 3:35 PM
One of the most interesting things about this thread is that whomsoever put the poll together apparently thinks in base-6!



(for those less numerate, the poll has no values for the digits 6, 7, 8 and 9)

AJAX22
06-28-2011, 5:21 PM
I actually still have one of the fed ord .22 barrel liners an brass .32 cap and ball guns...

I was planning in doing the conversion but didn't get around to it before I had to leave.

Mikeb
06-28-2011, 5:39 PM
Sounds like a zip gun under CA law... but I'm no expert.
Mike

AJAX22
06-28-2011, 5:40 PM
The converted BP gun is the same design as the early colt derringers.

Mikeb
06-28-2011, 5:42 PM
and why was this a public poll. Do you work for the DOJ? Ah come on you can tell me...

CHS
06-28-2011, 11:25 PM
Sounds like a zip gun under CA law... but I'm no expert.
Mike

If it's not an unregistered title 2, then it can't qualify as a zip gun under CA law.

AJAX22
06-29-2011, 5:37 PM
Its only an AOW if the insert is not rifled...

the ATF deliberately glosses over the fact that if its rifled it's legal.

AJAX22
06-29-2011, 6:01 PM
randy weaver was found to be innocent in the end. but, that won't bring his wife and kid back to life!

Sounds like a great reason not to do anything ever....

CHS
07-01-2011, 12:39 AM
:gene:
sure is quite in here.
echo, echo, echo!

And?

AJAX22
01-15-2013, 10:39 AM
Anyone have a source on these? (I only have the direct sales info for leinad for bulk purchasing)

AJAX22
01-15-2013, 11:45 AM
Also, if anyone bought one of these and isn't going to get around to finishing it, i would love to take it off your hands

mcmep11
11-19-2014, 1:51 PM
Since this clearly shows up in google searches still, I thought I might post my findings. I bought a 2014 single derringer kit, and a 2014 flare gun and compared them side by side and dismantled. The first obvious difference is the diameter of the barrel (12 gauge flare vs 45 lc) the consequences of this difference are as follows.
1 -- the breech is a lot larger than is needed for the 45 lc barrel, this is cosmetic only, and could be ground down on a grinder probably in a few minutes.
2 -- the larger diameter changes the location of the firing pin on the hammer. when comparing the hammer of each device side by side, its about a 1/4 inch difference. If you don't change the hammer out, the flare gun hammer will hit right in the middle of the labeling of the brass.
3 -- breech face hole for hammer pin is place to high for the hammer from derringer kit
4 -- as has been mentioned previously the barrel pin is larger in the flare gun.


so it would appear that the remediation that is necessary is to convert flare gun to derringer is to sleeve the barrel pin, (or drill out the barrel hole), grind down the breech plate to size of barrel, drill out or grind out the firing pin hole in breech face, replace hammer, and of course replace the barrel.

RickD427
11-19-2014, 2:09 PM
Since this clearly shows up in google searches still, I thought I might post my findings. I bought a 2014 single derringer kit, and a 2014 flare gun and compared them side by side and dismantled. The first obvious difference is the diameter of the barrel (12 gauge flare vs 45 lc) the consequences of this difference are as follows.
1 -- the breech is a lot larger than is needed for the 45 lc barrel, this is cosmetic only, and could be ground down on a grinder probably in a few minutes.
2 -- the larger diameter changes the location of the firing pin on the hammer. when comparing the hammer of each device side by side, its about a 1/4 inch difference. If you don't change the hammer out, the flare gun hammer will hit right in the middle of the labeling of the brass.
3 -- breech face hole for hammer pin is place to high for the hammer from derringer kit
4 -- as has been mentioned previously the barrel pin is larger in the flare gun.


so it would appear that the remediation that is necessary is to convert flare gun to derringer is to sleeve the barrel pin, (or drill out the barrel hole), grind down the breech plate to size of barrel, drill out or grind out the firing pin hole in breech face, replace hammer, and of course replace the barrel.

If all of that leaves you with a firearm that is built to the same pattern as the licensed manufacturer, then you should be clear as far as the zip gun statute is concerned. Just be aware that any difference between your self-manufactured weapon and the pattern firearm could make your weapon distinct from the pattern firearm, and then you're back into potential "Zip Gun" territory.

I always feel the need to qualify any "Zip Gun" discussions with a reference to the Federal Excise Tax provisions of the zip gun law. Here's the actual definition of a "Zip Gun." If anyone out there is really inclined to research the excise tax element, please feel free. It's gonna make your head hurt real bad:

"As used in this part, “zip gun” means any weapon or device that meets all of the following criteria:

(a) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(b) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(c) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(d) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion."

phrogg111
11-19-2014, 7:37 PM
Building a firearm that is the pattern of a licensed manufacturer is irrelevant. An exemption from paying the tax on manufacturing a firearm for personal use. This is the federal code section. As only that needs to apply for the gun to be considered a firearm instead of a zip gun, California's zip gun law only bans guns that are also illegal by federal law.

RickD427
11-19-2014, 10:45 PM
Building a firearm that is the pattern of a licensed manufacturer is irrelevant. An exemption from paying the tax on manufacturing a firearm for personal use. This is the federal code section. As only that needs to apply for the gun to be considered a firearm instead of a zip gun, California's zip gun law only bans guns that are also illegal by federal law.

Phrogg,

You're correct in that if the Federal Excise Tax exemption applies, then the Pattern Firearm provision does become irrelevant. You only need one them to apply.

However please note that the langauge of Penal Code section 17360 does not simply state that an exemption from the tax is sufficient, nor does it state that no excise tax being due is sufficient. It specifically provides an exemption from excise tax, provided by specified sections of the U.S. Code, and the regulations issued pursuant to that code, are required to exempt a weapon from being a zip gun. I've parsed out the sections, and the way I read them, you're exempt from the excise tax for up to 50 weapons in a calendar year. The rub is that I think that one of the non-listed U.S. Code sections modifies the provision of a listed section to create the exemption. If you read the sections completely on their own, then the exemption is provided by a section of federal law that is not included in PC 17630. That leaves only the "Pattern Firearm" provision that prevents you from having a "zip gun."

I made previous invites for the Bar Card carrying JD's on this forum (IANAL) to add their read of the law. So far, no takers.

Please note that there is no requirement for a firearm to be illegal under federal law in order to be a California "Zip Gun." If you believe there is such a requirement, please provide the statute, or published case decision, so holding.

Tincon
11-20-2014, 5:45 AM
There is no exemption from paying tax "granted under Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code." The 50 personal weapons exemption people are referring to is in 4182. Note that 4182 is not the same thing as 4181. You are not allowed to build up to 50 zip guns per year, that is pure nonsense.

RickD427
11-20-2014, 9:26 AM
There is no exemption from paying tax "granted under Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code." The 50 personal weapons exemption people are referring to is in 4182. Note that 4182 is not the same thing as 4181. You are not allowed to build up to 50 zip guns per year, that is pure nonsense.

Tincon,

I can see your point, and appreciate your argument.

At the same time, I see the language of 4182(c)(1) as modifying the provisions of section 4181. You are correct in that 4182, standing alone, has no application to California's "Zip Gun" statute. However 4181 does specifically apply to the "Zip Gun" statute.

When I last viewed the "Zip Gun" statute, prior to retirement, that distinction led me to look away from it as an enforcement tool.

I know that I've asked this in other threads, but can you please explain why we're expecting street cops to parse out such complex issues of federal excise tax law in order to figure out if they're looking at an illegal gun? Or did I just fall asleep during the federal excise tax class in the academy?

Tincon
11-20-2014, 11:44 AM
Your DA's office should be addressing these issues with you. Granted, you may have a colorable argument about one section of the code modifying another, but without some very on point case law it is an extremely speculative argument at best. So I'm very much not in favor of encouraging people to rely on it, considering the consequences. Though it's perfectly reasonable of you to have declined to enforce a law that was not written in a way such that it is clearly understandable to the average person without a law degree.

RickD427
11-20-2014, 12:15 PM
Your DA's office should be addressing these issues with you. Granted, you may have a colorable argument about one section of the code modifying another, but without some very on point case law it is an extremely speculative argument at best. So I'm very much not in favor of encouraging people to rely on it, considering the consequences. Though it's perfectly reasonable of you to have declined to enforce a law that was not written in a way such that it is clearly understandable to the average person without a law degree.

Agreed. If one proceeds with your understanding of the excise tax provisions of the "Zip Gun" statute, then are we left with the position that a self-manufactured firearm, that is not built to a pattern of a weapon designed by a licensed manufacture, is an illegal "Zip Gun"?

Tincon
11-20-2014, 12:25 PM
Agreed. If one proceeds with your understanding of the excise tax provisions of the "Zip Gun" statute, then are we left with the position that a self-manufactured firearm, that is not built to a pattern of a weapon designed by a licensed manufacture, is an illegal "Zip Gun"?

Well the "built to a pattern" is speculative, but that seems to me like a reasonable interpretation.

spddrcr
11-21-2014, 9:02 AM
if only i could find a rifled barrel for my old CZ flare gun:(
she just sits in the safe waiting for an emergency.
http://images15.fotki.com/v1626/photos/2/1373772/7397507/1000000650-vi.jpg

12voltguy
11-21-2014, 9:43 AM
if only i could find a rifled barrel for my old CZ flare gun:(
she just sits in the safe waiting for an emergency.
http://images15.fotki.com/v1626/photos/2/1373772/7397507/1000000650-vi.jpg

hellboy had a 6 shooter that big:D
maybe they started with that one?

AJAX22
09-10-2015, 3:04 PM
etjugBGqfrI

Did it.

bohoki
09-10-2015, 3:15 PM
they have been selling those things for like 30 years the only people that seem to buy them are the ones who believe in ghosts and aliens and listen to late night whackadoo radio

VegasND
09-10-2015, 7:23 PM
So you're saying their target market is people who post on gun forums?
they have been selling those things for like 30 years the only people that seem to buy them are the ones who believe in ghosts and aliens and listen to late night whackadoo radio

bohoki
09-10-2015, 7:39 PM
So you're saying their target market is people who post on gun forums?

http://www.freebingonodeposit.uk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/bingo.jpg