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Operator
01-19-2011, 9:25 AM
After reading about A road trip with a felon thread. It has sparked a question.

I carry concealed every day and, from time to time, I go to lunch with a coworker that is a 20 year life changed felon. I know the fact that he has been on the right side of the law for 20 years is fairly insignificant, just wanted to provide some background.

Until now I never considered any issue here, is there one? Am I risking anything carrying concealed in the same car as we go to lunch? or worse, if we work in the same office?

I know he is a felon, He knows I have a ccw but doesn't know how often I carry.

Goldseeker
01-19-2011, 9:31 AM
The issue is possession and control of a gun. As long it remains on your body and under your control, no problem.

He can't even touch the gun.

Jack L
01-19-2011, 1:13 PM
Ask a qualified lawyer.

CHS
01-19-2011, 1:53 PM
Ask a qualified lawyer.

No need.

Felon's being around guns isn't exactly an issue. It's whether or not they can posses them, which they can't.

CCW'ing around a felon absolutely in no way constitutes "possession" for them, unless you're CCW'ing in a very very wrong way.

Window_Seat
01-19-2011, 2:11 PM
I was actually looking around for cases related to "felon with access to a firearm" or similar, where a person who is in the same proximity who has a felony, and is able to freely access the firearm within the same residence, or in your situation.

Here ya are, but if there's something better...:

United States v. Grubbs (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-6th-circuit/1149070.html) 547 U.S. 90 (2006) (US 6th Cir)

Moreover, although Grubbs's fingerprints were found on a rifle magazine, the Government did not introduce any evidence that Grubbs's fingerprints were found on the nine-millimeter supporting the felon-in-possession conviction.

The following three elements comprise the offense of being a felon in possession of a firearm:  (1) the defendant had a previous felony conviction, (2) the defendant knowingly possessed the firearm specified in the indictment, and (3) the firearm traveled in or affected interstate commerce.

Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1), a defendant may be convicted based on either actual or constructive possession of a firearm.   Actual possession requires that the defendant have “immediate possession or control” of the firearm.  United States v. Craven, 478 F.2d 1329, 1333 (6th Cir.1973).

In the instant case, the Government does not argue that Grubbs had physical control over the nine-millimeter handgun found under his brother Paul's mattress at the time of the arrest.   Nor is there any basis for concluding so:  the Government presented no evidence that Grubbs had immediate access to the weapon. The mere fact that the police arrested Grubbs in the same house where they found a handgun is, without more, insufficient to support a conviction for actual possession.

the evidence must prove that the defendant possessed the same handgun “identified in the indictment.”  Id.;  accord United States v. Schreane, 331 F.3d 548, 560 (6th Cir.2003) (defendant must knowingly possess the firearm “specified in the indictment”).

On the other hand:

When the defendant is found in close proximity to a firearm at the time of the arrest, the inference of dominion and control is particularly strong, and thus the incriminating evidence needed to corroborate the conviction is less.   See, e.g., United States v. Black, 525 F.2d 668, 669 (6th Cir.1975) (holding direct testimony tying a defendant to a gun was not required when the gun was found in the defendant's truck and when the defendant had both ammunition for the gun and a rack in which it could have been kept).

Erik.

CSDGuy
01-19-2011, 2:18 PM
In other words, if I have it on me, it's under my control. If it's not on me, it can be argued that a Felon driving has the weapon under their control. Of course, I'm not going to let the Felon know that I'm carrying...

One of the few benefits of having a CCW, I guess.

Jack L
01-19-2011, 3:16 PM
In the real world of LE, here's what I see as a possibility regardless of the law;

You both get pulled over for some little violation of the vehicle code. You both are run through the system. They find a handgun on you and find your buddy is a felon. Off the the slammer you go for some hours until it gets worked out. Is that worth it to you? If so then go for it. Often what the law is and what goes down until the smoke clears is not all that appetizing. We see it everyday, rights violated or detainment until LE decides it's cool.

press1280
01-19-2011, 4:26 PM
You can live in the same house w/a felon, as long as they don't use the weapon. That was a case decided in Federal court last year-US v. Huett?

Operator
01-20-2011, 8:32 AM
Thanks for the advice everyone.

Glock22Fan
01-20-2011, 8:38 AM
In the real world of LE, here's what I see as a possibility regardless of the law;

You both get pulled over for some little violation of the vehicle code. You both are run through the system. They find a handgun on you and find your buddy is a felon. Off the the slammer you go for some hours until it gets worked out. Is that worth it to you? If so then go for it. Often what the law is and what goes down until the smoke clears is not all that appetizing. We see it everyday, rights violated or detainment until LE decides it's cool.

"What is your 'probable cause?' I do not give you permission to search my possessions. That's mine, not his, and he has no access to it. I am not carrying anything illegal."

As far as I know, there is no offense "being in the presence of a felon" that makes me lose my constitutional rights.

Of course, you can avoid the drama by not travelling with a felon, but that's another conversation.

Lone_Gunman
01-20-2011, 8:45 AM
In the real world of LE, here's what I see as a possibility regardless of the law;

You both get pulled over for some little violation of the vehicle code. You both are run through the system. They find a handgun on you and find your buddy is a felon. Off the the slammer you go for some hours until it gets worked out. Is that worth it to you? If so then go for it. Often what the law is and what goes down until the smoke clears is not all that appetizing. We see it everyday, rights violated or detainment until LE decides it's cool.

They're not going to "find" a firearm on you. If you have a CCW permit you are carrying legally. You are going to inform the officer of that fact either when the interaction begins or when it becomes aparent that you are going to be asked to exit the car. You are going to say something like "Officer, I have a valid permit to concealed carry a firearm in California, and I am currently carrying a weapon on my right hip." You are going to say this with your hands in plain view and tou are not going to make any moves toward your permit or your weapon. The officer will either say "fine leave it there" or disarm you till the interaction is over. If the officer wants to be a jerk and make things hard for you request a supervisor. You're not going to go to the "slammer" for legally CCW in the presence of a felon.

BigDogatPlay
01-20-2011, 9:23 AM
In the real world of LE, here's what I see as a possibility regardless of the law;

You both get pulled over for some little violation of the vehicle code. You both are run through the system. They find a handgun on you and find your buddy is a felon. Off the the slammer you go for some hours until it gets worked out. Is that worth it to you? If so then go for it. Often what the law is and what goes down until the smoke clears is not all that appetizing. We see it everyday, rights violated or detainment until LE decides it's cool.

Sorry but in my real world of LE, even though I am a couple of years removed from it, that's not how it's going to play out based solely on what the OP posted.

Let's bear in mind that I'm not going to be running anyone in the car out for criminal history based solely on a traffic enforcement stop. If the felon is clear from parole, and at offense + 20 years I'd have to believe he'd be clear, as far as I know he is under no obligation to self identify as a felon. That requirement ends with the completion of parole, IIRC. Typically when I made contacts in the field one of the 'routine' questions was "are you on proation or parole", and if they aren't (even though they might be a felon) they aren't lying by saying no and going no deeper than that.

If the CCW permittee is lawfully carrying, the gun he is carrying is on his permit and the felon has no immediate possession or control (and it would be hard to articulate that that the felon could with the gun in the permittee's holster) then they're going to go on their way. If the felon self identifies as such to me, I might dig a little deeper but based solely on the scenario as originally presented my non-lawyerly, prior service LEO opinion is no harm, no foul.