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View Full Version : Confused (OFFLIST DRAMA)


JesseXXX
08-18-2006, 7:27 PM
I'll keep mine simple...

This place is like the big brother I never had.....

I have a Stag M4 with a 10 round PINNED magazine..... I'm I screwed.....? Are we screwed....? :confused:

SOOOO.....Friken' Confused....:confused: :mad:
JesseXXX

black9c1@sbcglobal.net personal e-mail....

jemaddux
08-18-2006, 7:30 PM
I'll keep mine simple...

This place is like the big brother I never had.....

I have a Stag M4 with a 10 round PINNED magazine..... I'm I screwed.....? Are we screwed....? :confused:

SOOOO.....Friken' Confused....:confused: :mad:
JesseXXX

black9c1@sbcglobal.net personal e-mail....

No, you and all of us are just fine........ We shall see what happens

Dont Tread on Me
08-18-2006, 7:41 PM
This is what I do so that I can sleep at night until this sorts itself out. I separate my upper from my lower (flash suppressor). I removed the pistol grip and the collapsable stock.

It is really up to you and your comfort level. This is mine.

blkA4alb
08-18-2006, 7:47 PM
We are good, in fact I just shot mine today.

anotherone
08-18-2006, 7:54 PM
Basically what it all really depends on is the county you live in. If you live in a county where firearms are high on the DA's radar you may want to consider not showing up at public ranges with off-list rifles. However, if you're just shooting on BLM land and private ranges I wouldn't lose any sleep over this whole thing.

As it stands, California follows both legislation as well as case law. Existing legislation and case law has established that when something becomes an "Assault Weapon" due to government activity, the procedure is registration not confiscation. It is likely that the DOJ will continue their current process of trial and error.

It is completely inevitable that this is going to be decided in a courtroom at this point in time. Furthermore, the entire AW Ban is going to be on trial at that time.

CALI-gula
08-18-2006, 8:03 PM
You should have no worries about the SKS but note that its desgin parallels engineering of the pinned-fixed magazine construction of the Off List Lowers being legal, that the concept of certain SKS rifles having been banned as a DETACHABLE magazine centerfire rifle by Roberti-Roos AND features under SB23, was accepted by DOJ with a swing-down fixed magazine. And Bill Weise has some new thoughts on the SKS - check out his post.

Because the Stag is not listed/named in Roberti-Roos, 1) it is not designated by name as an AW, then 2) if it has a fixed magazine, like the pinned magazine of the SKS, it is absent of one of the pertinent evil features noted by SB23, therefore, not an AW under SB23 either.

Do nothing except enjoy your rifles. The only way you will be screwed is if you replace your pin with a machine screw to fix the magazine in place; it would still require a tool other than your hand to remove, and should not be in violation of SB23.

If they change it, they change it, but I think that they will surely regret the lawsuits if they do.

In all honesty, expect them to drag their feet and maybe put up even more silly memos or "proposals" on this issue until Bill Lockyer leaves office this fall.

.

anotherone
08-18-2006, 8:22 PM
In all honesty, expect them to drag their feet and maybe put up even more silly memos or "proposals" on this issue until Bill Lockyer leaves office this fall.

Biggest Fear: Jerry Brown goes into that office this fall. After he gets in there we'll all be wishing Lockyer was still in there :(!

anotherone
08-18-2006, 11:25 PM
Alright, I'm going to attempt a brief statement regarding the current panic:

The legal precident in California is registration NOT confiscation. The DOJ is more concerned with how to stop off-list lowers from comming into the state at a rate of 2,500 - 5,000+ per month than it is about the lowers already in the state. It will deal with the lowers already in the state when it stops new ones from comming in.

Cato
08-18-2006, 11:41 PM
It is completely inevitable that this is going to be decided in a courtroom at this point in time. Furthermore, the entire AW Ban is going to be on trial at that time.

_________________________________________________
I found it VERY curious the "public nuisance" part of the proposed legislation. It's as though the DOJ has found SB23 to be as pointless as WE have always known it to be. Criminals can get any weapon under the sun. The rest of the nation allows ARs/AKs; after all, they allowed the federal AW ban to expire.

California is full of law abiding citizens who are interested in ARs/AKs and Californias citizens are surrounded by states that are chock full of AKs/Ars. Now SB23 (which is based on predominantly cosmetic features) is a major headache for all parties involved.
Americans in California are denied 2A rights, the DOJ permits fixed mags, Californians built thousands of fixed mags, the DOJ approves various fixed mags, the the DOJ sends out more memos trying to hold back the flood of formerly approved AWs by changing policy in mid stream. The DOJ doesn't want to, or can't go door to door confiscating rifles with "evil" features that are legal in most states.
After Katrina and the realization that the pistol grip and detachable mag is mostly cosmetic, why bust into homes and arrest California's most law abiding citizens? I suspect the DOJ realizes how inane SB23 is: thats why the penalty was proposed to be dropped from felony to a "public nuisance."
I think SB23 was overturned when Bushmasters closed magazine and similar models were officially approved by the DOJ. After all those lower owners got letters from the DOJ approving the legality of OLL SB23 was dead.
So what is the DOJ to do?
1) Confiscation? Gun grabbers never prevail. After all we are more than Californians, we are Americans. Even without the ambigious and misleading memos, gun confiscation will never work in the USA. The guns are here, legally.
2) Another category of AW? Looks like the strange disappearance of that memo proves that ain't gonna happen.
3) Voiding of SB23? Is that possible without a vote? That would be the best choice for all parties involved.
4) Registration and add on legislation? This might be the only way out. Those of us with OLLs would be happy and the DOJ will be doing what the law dictates: LIST! The add on legislation always seemed illegal to me. The citizens of California voted for SB23, not for add ons approved by the assembly. 2A rights are serious ideas, shouldn't the people's be involved? Anyway if the add ons continue, SB23 is going to become an enormous monster. Both sides of the arguement will require teams of lawyers to comprehend it. Right now pro 2A rights folks seem to have much more steam in taking down SB23 than the aging hippie liberals have to defend it.

SB23 is just a "public nuisance." It has failed and should be abolished.

anotherone
08-19-2006, 1:09 AM
The problem with SB-23 and the California Assault Weapons ban is that the gun grabbers have backed themselves into a corner politically. The worked so hard to get the bill passed and to enforce it that not continuing to be hardline about "Assault Weapons" in this state would be political suicide for them. The got everyone worked up into hysteria that this would make them safer. Now with all the verbage and spin out there they can't just make "Assault Weapons" lawful again and expect to stick around.

Like I said, this is going to court. The gun grabbers are facing the ultimately possibility of their ban being voided by $0.25 of parts at Home Depot and the pro-gun crowd finally has liberation at hand. The stakes are too high for this not to be decided in a costly legal battle.

"SB-23 is unenforceable" is the assertion. The Off-list movement is the evidence.

mikehaas
08-19-2006, 3:41 PM
Biggest Fear: Jerry Brown goes into that office this fall. After he gets in there we'll all be wishing Lockyer was still in there :(!
Not to buck the flow, but my understanding is that Mr. Brown is a pretty pro-gun guy. Remember, pro-gun Democrats (and there are more than you think) tend not to wear it on their sleeve. That's what my friends tell me about J.B. anyway.

I know the guy used to give the Alameda NRA Members' Council a 'thumbs up' when he walked by it and they speak well of him. NRA's Project Exile was implemented when he was mayor. No idea what his gun voting record was like - does anyone know? After all, he was governor.

Poochigian seems good too, heard his problem is money. Could be an interesting race. of course, I'm waiting for the NRA endorsements.

Mike

6172crew
08-19-2006, 7:48 PM
Mike, NRA started project exile? From what I remeber it means if you break a gunlaw then you are kicked out of Alameda county..or something like that.:confused:

anotherone
08-19-2006, 7:58 PM
Mike, NRA started project exile? From what I remeber it means if you break a gunlaw then you are kicked out of Alameda county..or something like that.:confused:

Project Exile targets felons and others such as drug addicts who are unlawfully in possession of a firearm. Great concept too... instead of making more regulations to create new criminals, just enforce existing laws and put existing criminals in prison.

The Soup Nazi
08-19-2006, 8:09 PM
Project Exile targets felons and others such as drug addicts who are unlawfully in possession of a firearm. Great concept too... instead of making more regulations to create new criminals, just enforce existing laws and put existing criminals in prison.

Reminds me of when my dad was buying his M9 from the SJGE and some dude came in asking if he could still buy a pistol after saying that the police confiscated 5000 dollars worth of pot, took his guns, and got committed to a mental hospital. :rolleyes: Heh, we all thought he was crazy and after he left there was a litte tension about whether he'd come back in or not.

xenophobe
08-19-2006, 9:28 PM
I'll keep mine simple...

This place is like the big brother I never had.....

I have a Stag M4 with a 10 round PINNED magazine..... I'm I screwed.....? Are we screwed....? :confused:

SOOOO.....Friken' Confused....:confused: :mad:
JesseXXX

black9c1@sbcglobal.net personal e-mail....

A certain infamous DOJ official was at the SJ gun show today and observed certain OLL builds that would be subject to SB-23 violations if they were not using mag-lock devices. These firearms were largely ignored from what I understand.

anotherone
08-19-2006, 10:00 PM
A certain infamous DOJ official was at the SJ gun show today and observed certain OLL builds that would be subject to SB-23 violations if they were not using mag-lock devices. These firearms were largely ignored from what I understand.

Lately I've been thinking that the DOJ is following their usual pattern of short-term thinking. They're only thinking about how they can stop people from building full evil-featured AR-15 builds because they look more evil than gripless builds (which have infinitely more firepower go figure). I've actually been starting to think that the DOJ knows it will face legal challanges (and also they probably also know they'll have to allow registration). However, if they can keep gun shows from being filled with pinned rifles for sale then they'll have saved face.

The longer this goes on, we're going to be seeing more CA-legal ARs and AKs at gun shows. What I wonder is whether they'll just go after gripless builds next or if they'll just have a temper tantrum and try to ban gun shows so they don't see "the problem". The DOJ is a sore loser that realizes that its opponent is better at playing the game so they decided to change the rules at half-time.

Mute
08-19-2006, 10:39 PM
Just one small point. The citizens of California never voted for SB23, the freaking politicians in charge did. Most Californians just doesn't seem to care one way or the other.

grammaton76
08-20-2006, 1:15 AM
A certain infamous DOJ official was at the SJ gun show today and observed certain OLL builds that would be subject to SB-23 violations if they were not using mag-lock devices. These firearms were largely ignored from what I understand.

Well, we know he isn't stupid. The DOJ has stated that they're going to modify the definitions, at which time pinned-mag evil-feature builds would be evil. After they update the definitions, I'm not so sure he'll pass by those same builds again...

chris
08-20-2006, 7:48 AM
only will they show their true colors after the election. that is when we will know how we stand.

JesseXXX
08-26-2006, 7:10 AM
"Are we there yet....?" :D

Anything new....?

fairfaxjim
08-26-2006, 11:35 PM
only will they show their true colors after the election. that is when we will know how we stand.
There's no doubt about Jerry Brown's colors - just check the endorsements on his web site - http://www.jerrybrown.org/endorsements Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, Howard Berman, Ellen Tauscher, Lynn Woolsey, Tom Torlakson, Joe Nation, John Burton, Gavin Newsom, and the list goes on.

My book says "color him ultra liberal."

thedrickel
08-27-2006, 9:00 PM
I wouldn't read to much into the endorsements, for example it says at the top:

"UPDATE: Dianne Feinstein and Nancy Pelosi Endorse Jerry Brown's Support for a Woman's Right to Choose"

A lot of that stuff is just party BS, Brown is so old-school nobody big is gonna snub him. I don't think he gets along with newsom real well, or slick willie either.

I want to see what being in Oakland for so long has done to him. He's gotta realize by now that people that want guns badly enough are going to acquire them regardless of the rule of law. And hopefully that a law-abiding gun owner is a good thing.

In the meantine, he hasn't done sh#t for oakland that wasn't good for him politically. All of a sudden a year ago he starts coming out with these crime initiatives that sound great in a statewide campaign but don't do jack for oakland besides waste OPD $$.

We might as well plan for the worst and hope for the best in this race.

eman_308
08-28-2006, 7:35 PM
Hello,

Anyone considering a Beowulf upper for their OLL, here it is in action. The recoil, though not excessive, is pretty substantial! It's grrr-eeaat!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sak1azVRBk

C.G.
08-28-2006, 7:47 PM
Hello,

Anyone considering a Beowulf upper for their OLL, here it is in action. The recoil, though not excessive, is pretty substantial! It's grrr-eeaat!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sak1azVRBk

This one is better (and the guy doesn't forget to pull on the charging handle;) ):
http://www.zippyvideos.com/7522792322115796/50_beowulf_full_auto/

BTW Midway is having a sale on Beowulf entry uppers right now.

eman_308
08-28-2006, 8:02 PM
sick! but this is Kalifornia...