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Barkoff
01-18-2011, 5:27 PM
I'm a little confused as to the confusion stated in the strike down of AB962, "what constitutes handgun ammo". Are we talking in regards to calibers that both handguns and rifles are designed for, .22, .38, .357, .44, .45 Colt, are there anymore?

USMC VET
01-18-2011, 5:31 PM
As far as I gather the whole thing has been struck down.

Lead-Thrower
01-18-2011, 5:32 PM
Doesn't matter now...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=385930

Barkoff
01-18-2011, 5:35 PM
I understand it was struck down, I'm trying to understand the ambiguity sited that got it struck down. Trying to anticipate how the legislators will respond.

In the event that the bill is modified, will it then also need Jerry Brown's signature?

Texas Boy
01-18-2011, 5:38 PM
simply replacing "handgun ammunition" with "all ammunition" or "the following ammunition: 22LR, 38 SPL, 9mm...." would have removed the ambiguity. Of course there are still plenty of other grounds with which to attack the law, but this case only dealt with that particular aspect of the law.

MrClamperSir
01-18-2011, 5:38 PM
I'm a little confused as to the confusion stated in the strike down of AB962, "what constitutes handgun ammo". Are we talking in regards to calibers that both handguns and rifles are designed for, .22, .38, .357, .44, .45 Colt, are there anymore? .30, 223, 7.62x39.......

Doesn't matter now...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=385930

Great news, in fact, it’s almost unbelievable. I remember a time not too long ago when the citizens of this great state just rolled over and took what they were told to.

Barkoff
01-18-2011, 5:40 PM
A .30, .223 handgun, really? Never seen one.

loather
01-18-2011, 5:48 PM
I own a .30 caliber handgun. And I know several people with AR-pattern pistols.

stix213
01-18-2011, 5:49 PM
I'm a little confused as to the confusion stated in the strike down of AB962, "what constitutes handgun ammo". Are we talking in regards to calibers that both handguns and rifles are designed for, .22, .38, .357, .44, .45 Colt, are there anymore?

That's the whole reason it was struck down. It was struck for vagueness of what constitutes handgun ammo specifically. Read the release from the CRPA-F

stix213
01-18-2011, 5:53 PM
I understand it was struck down, I'm trying to understand the ambiguity sited that got it struck down. Trying to anticipate how the legislators will respond.

In the event that the bill is modified, will it then also need Jerry Brown's signature?

If they were to avoid the specific argument put forth in just this one lawsuit, they could specify the exact chamberings they want to ban, and then cross their fingers JB doesn't veto it. They tried doing that last session but could not get it to the governors desk though due to lack of support.

The vagueness of what constitutes handgun ammo wasn't the only argument made against the law though, just the main one in the Parker case that succeeded.

I'm feeling pretty good about this one :D

MrClamperSir
01-18-2011, 5:56 PM
I own a .30 caliber handgun. And I know several people with AR-pattern pistols.

What he said. I've shot an AK pistol, pretty gnarly if you ask me!!

Librarian
01-18-2011, 5:59 PM
I understand it was struck down, I'm trying to understand the ambiguity sited that got it struck down. Trying to anticipate how the legislators will respond.

In the event that the bill is modified, will it then also need Jerry Brown's signature?

New bill.

Introduced someplace, hearings in that house by at least 2 committees then voted on by entire house; if passes, go to the other house and repeat. If passes, go to governor.

The ambiguity was from the bill's new PC 12323, where the definition provided could not be used to identify 'handgun ammunition' and distinguish it from non-handgun ammunition.

safewaysecurity
01-18-2011, 6:03 PM
They have that one 50BMG handgun

Bhobbs
01-18-2011, 6:05 PM
Short of cannon rounds I am sure there is a pistol chambered for every rifle caliber.

motorhead
01-18-2011, 6:07 PM
i posted somewhere earlier, t/c used to make a .45-70 barrel for the contender. there's a youtube vid of a .50 BMG pistol, where does the madness stop? i suspect it will require a "LIST". after all, there is precedent in ca firearms law.

MrClamperSir
01-18-2011, 6:08 PM
They have that one 50BMG handgun

:eek: No thank you!!

Bhobbs
01-18-2011, 6:09 PM
i posted somewhere earlier, t/c used to make a .45-70 barrel for the contender. there's a youtube vid of a .50 BMG pistol, where does the madness stop? i suspect it will require a "LIST". after all, there is precedent in ca firearms law.

We will do what .50 shooters did. Reform the case slightly and rename it. Now it is no longer a listed catridge.

hk91666
01-18-2011, 6:09 PM
Does anyone think the ambiguity may have been on purpose, remember when this was passed and signed the bill to stop gunshows in SF cow palace was also up. Food for thought was this an effort to pull support away from the cow palace bill? JMHO folks.

I am always trying to figure out when some things happen and other do not is it Karma or???

ke6guj
01-18-2011, 6:09 PM
i posted somewhere earlier, t/c used to make a .45-70 barrel for the contender. .and Magnum Research currently makes the BFR (biggest finest revolver) in .45-70.


We will do what .50 shooters did. Reform the case slightly and rename it. Now it is no longer a listed catridge.
one nice thing regarding the .510DTC was that it was already in existance before the .50BMG rifle ban came down. So, it wasn't a "loophole" that we designed a cartridge to get around the ban, it was a pre-existing cartridge that the CA legislators should have known about and could have included in the ban, if they so desired.

wildhawker
01-18-2011, 6:16 PM
The legislature has 2 options:

A) Specify regulated cartridges, or

B) regulate all cartridges.

Bhobbs
01-18-2011, 6:20 PM
and Magnum Research currently makes the BFR (biggest finest revolver) in .45-70.



one nice thing regarding the .510DTC was that it was already in existance before the .50BMG rifle ban came down. So, it wasn't a "loophole" that we designed a cartridge to get around the ban, it was a pre-existing cartridge that the CA legislators should have known about and could have included in the ban, if they so desired.

It was designed to get around the ban of civilian use of current or former military cartridges. I believe the round was designed in France of all places. So yeah it was made to beat a ban, just not ours.

Bhobbs
01-18-2011, 6:21 PM
The legislature has 2 options:

A) Specify regulated cartridges, or

B) regulate all cartridges.

This would be my bet if anything.

hoffmang
01-18-2011, 6:27 PM
Regulate all cartridges gets much harder to defend politically and in the courts.

-Gene

ke6guj
01-18-2011, 6:28 PM
It was designed to get around the ban of civilian use of current or former military cartridges. I believe the round was designed in France of all places. So yeah it was made to beat a ban, just not ours.

right, Eric Danis desgined that cartridge in order to comply with the laws of other counties that had bans regarding .mil cartridges. Our use of it in order to comply with the CA .50BMG rifle ban is a little cleaner than the suggestions by some in 2005 of all kinds of silly stuff like reducing the diameter to .499" and calling it the .499 Fienstien, or rebating the head of the round so that a non-rebated .50BMG round wouldn't be able to be chambered with the bolt closed, among other silly ideas. When the existing .510DTC that already had a European CIP standard (their version of SAAMI) it was easier to just adopt it (and then EDMarms F$%!'ed it all up with their 50DTC-EDM wildcat version instead of recalling the few mischambered rifles and fixing them) to our rifles and not have to try to design a new cartridge.

Barkoff
01-18-2011, 6:34 PM
What caliber does a .30 caliber gun shoot, a 30-30, .308?

ke6guj
01-18-2011, 6:40 PM
What caliber does a .30 caliber gun shoot, a 30-30, .308?

not sure the point of the question, but there are handguns chambered in many .30 caliber versions. .30carbine, .308 (7.62x51), 7.62x39, .30luger, 7.62x25mm Tokarev are just some of the common .30 caliber chamberings in pistols.

but to answer your question, the answer to your question is .30 :D

mblat
01-18-2011, 6:51 PM
Regulate all cartridges gets much harder to defend politically and in the courts.

-Gene

Can you explain why ALL cartridges is more difficult in courts than
"9x19 and .40 and .45 and etc."?

I understand politically, but why is it harder judicially?

SoCal Bob
01-18-2011, 6:53 PM
I'm a little confused as to the confusion stated in the strike down of AB962, "what constitutes handgun ammo". Are we talking in regards to calibers that both handguns and rifles are designed for, .22, .38, .357, .44, .45 Colt, are there anymore?

The confusion is what led to the Judge to order the law as unconstitutional. The law itself did not specify which rounds were considered to be primarily handgun ammo and the DOJ - BoF did not come up with a list either. A late attempt at another law to provide more specification died and was never enacted.

Without a specific guideline the enforcement was open to interpretation; one county or city may believe that .22lr is primarily a handgun round while another may believe it is primarily intended for rifles and so on, and so on.

753X0
01-18-2011, 7:14 PM
I understand it was struck down, I'm trying to understand the ambiguity sited that got it struck down. Trying to anticipate how the legislators will respond.

In the event that the bill is modified, will it then also need Jerry Brown's signature?

Like you think he'd refuse to sign!?

Labheeler
01-18-2011, 7:17 PM
A .30, .223 handgun, really? Never seen one.

Thompson/Center Contender pistols can fire many rifle cartridges.

So like 22LR, this would cloud the definition of "handgun ammunition" even further.

hoffmang
01-18-2011, 8:09 PM
I understand politically, but why is it harder judicially?

Politics spills into court. A ban on the importation or sale of all ammo in interstate commerce is easier (but not a slam dunk) to challenge than just handgun ammo. The major reason being that very few criminal acts happen with .308 or .30-06 for example...

-Gene

Milsurp Collector
01-18-2011, 8:31 PM
A .30, .223 handgun, really? Never seen one.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/rugers-new-model-blackhawk-30-carbine/

http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkBlued/specSheets/10595.html

http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkBlued/images/10595.jpg