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View Full Version : Folks filing for bankruptcy and is asked to list firearms in household


Maddog5150
01-18-2011, 5:54 PM
And all my firearms are in the house. They only listed three that belong to them, everything else was given to me or I bought myself. I never have bragged about the number I firearms I own and I'm not going to devuldge that information however, its to the point where I dont know which pistols are registered to him or me. Bottom line is that they are mine but are stored in my gunsafe at their residence.
Will people come to the house to audit to see what I have? Will they try to cut into the gunsafe? How much trouble will I get into if I call 911 because people are trying to break into MY safe to get to my guns IF they show up? I'm honestly worried because all my stuff is stored there and I cannot get a storage unit ATM and move all the stuff I have as I spend most of my time in San Diego and my parents can NOT move the heavy safe.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.

G17GUY
01-18-2011, 5:57 PM
http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?id=14071

OC-Indian
01-18-2011, 6:00 PM
Any decent BK attorney can tell you how much assets you are allowed to keep during a bankruptcy discharge. If you need a referral PM me

Rock6.3
01-18-2011, 6:01 PM
If you do not look out for your rights, who will?

Move your stuff and eliminate the potential problem before it becomes a problem.

tzahoy
01-18-2011, 6:02 PM
Do yourself and your folks a favor and move ALL ypur stuff out.

Super Spy
01-18-2011, 6:07 PM
Nobody is going to come to anyone's home and double check the list for accuracy. I might be worried about not listing a bank account that can easily be tracked by SSN, or a vehicle registered to someone. If it's not a large ticket item that can be tracked via computer database, don't sweat it.

bwiese
01-18-2011, 6:16 PM
Do not perjure yourself.

Ding126
01-18-2011, 6:18 PM
make a true statement / list

RT13
01-18-2011, 6:22 PM
When you file for bankruptcy, aren't you protected from the creditors harrassing you by phone or mail, and from coming to your home to seize any property? Isn't that the whole point of filing bankruptcy?

ar15robert
01-18-2011, 6:30 PM
Simple if they are your guns just go and get them if they are "theirs"then why worry about them since they are not "yours"

Havoc70
01-18-2011, 6:36 PM
When I filed, I just lumped it all under allowed personal property. The BK attorney will handle all that. I filed Chapter 13, though, and it has more lenient property exemptions.

You don't have to itemize the firearms, only their value. That is for the court to determine financial situation of the petitioner.

ke6guj
01-18-2011, 6:58 PM
people, the OP is not filing for BK, his parents are. The OP is asking about HIS firearms that are currently stored at the parents house. The OP doesn't have to itemize anything, he isn't filing BK.


Simple if they are your guns just go and get them if they are "theirs"then why worry about them since they are not "yours"
you seem to be about the only one who understands the OP. your advice would the the safest, provided the OP can get there and remove his property. That said, for an average BK, I've never heard of a home inspection being done. I doubt anyone is gonna come in and cut open a safe that the OP's parents says does not belong to them. But a trustee's powers are pretty broad, so I don't know the exact legality of that scenario. It would probably be a good idea for the OP's parents to ask their attorney about it.

hoffmang
01-18-2011, 7:30 PM
1. Listing firearms in a BK filing is as old as the 2A. Firearms have always been considered important and valuable personal property in much the way cars are now.

2. If parents are BKing and storing a child's firearm, then it doesn't at all need to be on their filing. The items that need to be listed in a BK are those that legitimately belong to the BKer - not other people's property.

-Gene

jamesob
01-18-2011, 8:05 PM
the correct answer would be = 0

HowardW56
01-18-2011, 8:08 PM
Bankruptcy crimes fall under 18 U.S.C. section 152, and include the following conduct:


concealment of assets
making a false oath in a bankruptcy proceeding,
Knowingly making a false or fraudulent account declaration,
presenting false claims against a bankruptcy estate,
receiving property with the intent to defeat the Bankruptcy Code,
transfers with the intent to defeat Title 11,
fraudulent pre-bankruptcy transfers,
concealment or destruction of records,
fraudulently withholding recorded information from a Bankruptcy Trustee.

Maddog5150
01-18-2011, 10:37 PM
people, the OP is not filing for BK, his parents are. The OP is asking about HIS firearms that are currently stored at the parents house. The OP doesn't have to itemize anything, he isn't filing BK.



you seem to be about the only one who understands the OP. your advice would the the safest, provided the OP can get there and remove his property. That said, for an average BK, I've never heard of a home inspection being done. I doubt anyone is gonna come in and cut open a safe that the OP's parents says does not belong to them. But a trustee's powers are pretty broad, so I don't know the exact legality of that scenario. It would probably be a good idea for the OP's parents to ask their attorney about it.

Thanks. I told them what to ask the attorney but I'm still leery about it. Moving the safe isnt going to happen right now. I live in government housing ATM on a 3rd floor of an apartment building over 200 miles away, Getting the safe there isnt an option.

1. Listing firearms in a BK filing is as old as the 2A. Firearms have always been considered important and valuable personal property in much the way cars are now.

2. If parents are BKing and storing a child's firearm, then it doesn't at all need to be on their filing. The items that need to be listed in a BK are those that legitimately belong to the BKer - not other people's property.

-Gene

Thanks. The problem I'm thinking that may happen is that long guns are not registered so it will be just our words of who they belong to and I was gifted handguns since I've been 18 so I cant remember which ones I've dros'd and which ones my parents dros'd

Bankruptcy crimes fall under 18 U.S.C. section 152, and include the following conduct:


concealment of assets
making a false oath in a bankruptcy proceeding,
Knowingly making a false or fraudulent account declaration,
presenting false claims against a bankruptcy estate,
receiving property with the intent to defeat the Bankruptcy Code,
transfers with the intent to defeat Title 11,
fraudulent pre-bankruptcy transfers,
concealment or destruction of records,
fraudulently withholding recorded information from a Bankruptcy Trustee.


When did I say I was going to lie and conceal anything?

Anchors
01-18-2011, 11:19 PM
1. Listing firearms in a BK filing is as old as the 2A. Firearms have always been considered important and valuable personal property in much the way cars are now.

2. If parents are BKing and storing a child's firearm, then it doesn't at all need to be on their filing. The items that need to be listed in a BK are those that legitimately belong to the BKer - not other people's property.

-Gene

My opinion on the matter too.
What's yours is yours and what's his is his.

pitchbaby
01-18-2011, 11:56 PM
I work in financial services... I've seen lots of this sort of thing. The things you worry about are nothing to be worried over. Just as Gene and others said... if it doesn't actually belong to your parents, they don't even need to count it as an asset.

Having said that, unless you trust your parent's integrity implicitly, I would get my property out. I would hate to see my stuff sold, even if only by "accident". Like you said, the line between what is yours and theirs seems unclear.

five.five-six
01-19-2011, 12:53 AM
Possession being 9/10ths of the law, I would get over there and start possesing ASAP

Theseus
01-19-2011, 1:12 AM
When I had to file for welfare earlier last year they asked me about my guns and said I had to list and sell any of them valued over $500, IIRC. . .

Anchors
01-19-2011, 6:47 PM
When I had to file for welfare earlier last year they asked me about my guns and said I had to list and sell any of them valued over $500, IIRC. . .

Are they actually allowed to tell you that you HAVE to sell your guns? Seems illegal. They are not just a normal asset, but one that is protected by the Constitution.

The way I see it none of your guns are worth more than $500. They are all used which usually diminishes the value to about $499.99.
I kid.

Dutch3
01-19-2011, 7:04 PM
What would it take for you to get your own place and store your own property?

It seems like that should become a priority.

RT13
01-19-2011, 11:21 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but what if the OP was the one filing for bankruptcy? He owns a home, a car, some home furnishings, and a safe full of guns. How does this all work? Does he list each individual gun and it's potential value, doe she just make an overall estimated value with no itemizing of the guns individually? In CA, is it protected or exempt?

fiddletown
01-19-2011, 11:59 PM
What's yours is yours and not part of your folks' bankruptcy estate. The only possible issue would be if some of your property is especially valuable, and a creditor of your folks' wants to challenge their claim that the asset is yours and not theirs. I suspect that would be extremely unlikely.

You might want your folks to be real clear with their lawyer and detail for him what is your property and not theirs. That way he can be sure not to include your property in any accounting of the assets of the bankruptcy estate. And you might want to double check for your own piece of mind that your property has been clearly excluded from any accounting.

webster223
01-20-2011, 2:11 AM
RT13: Procedures vary by locality, but SOP for many BK attorneys is simply to list the firearms' resale value, in order to keep public disclosure of the debtor's firearms ownership to a minimum. However, as with any asset in bankruptcy, a filer needs to be prepared to provide details and documentation in case the BK trustee wants more info or in the event of an audit.

Firearms can be included among exempt property so long as the right exemption option is selected. That would be something to go over with one's attorney before filing.

Kukuforguns
01-20-2011, 10:58 AM
Best Answer: Your parents have a BK attorney. He or she will be a specialist in BK law. Have your parents explain the situation to the BK attorney and follow any advice given by the attorney. While there may be some attorneys who are members of CalGuns, most of them will not be BK specialists. You and your parents will be better served by following your parents' attorney's advice.

Things to think about: People who are declaring bankruptcy sometimes attempt to avoid the consequences by giving away property shortly before filing in the form of gifts. This is considered bad form by the courts (as in fraud). You mentioned that you received some of your firearms as gifts (but did not disclose who was the giver). Accordingly, when discussing the issue with the attorney, your parents should be prepared to discuss which guns (if any) they gave to you and when.

I have seen one BK case where a creditor obtained possession of a debtor's home and everything in it, including a gunsafe. The gunsafe had many more guns (and much more valuable) then were listed on the schedule of assets. It was easy to impeach the debtor's credibility once his concealment was revealed. Your parents should be scrupulously honest with their BK attorney.

sepiid
01-20-2011, 12:39 PM
when i filed BK all i did was list the number 3 and the value ~1k

that is what i thought i would be able to sell them for. key thing to remember, is put the true resale value of the item, not what you think it is worth or wish it was worth.

i have discharged for a while now and it is a very good feeling. and i would get a consult with an attorney, most initial consults are free.

promise you wont use a BK mill though. i paid about 2800 all in all for my simple bk7 it was an all inclusive contract.

please visit the bkforum.com site for further info on this, it was a life saver for me.

vincewarde
01-20-2011, 12:41 PM
NRA just successfully pushed for up to $3000.00 in firearms to be exempt during bankruptcy. Don't know when it takes effect.

glockk9mm
02-01-2011, 2:51 PM
NRA just successfully pushed for up to $3000.00 in firearms to be exempt during bankruptcy. Don't know when it takes effect.

How about those that have a large collection worth more than 3000.00? If they file for bankruptcy do they have to sell most of their firearms?

nicki
02-01-2011, 3:08 PM
How valuable are your guns, well what would a dealer pay you in cash?

Personal property actually drops alot in value from what you paid for it.

Nicki

covertcombatant
02-01-2011, 3:22 PM
Bring the safe to my house. I live in Temecula. I'll store it for a fellow cal gunner. You can bolt it down, and leave it till you can pick it up.

fiddletown
02-01-2011, 3:41 PM
How about those that have a large collection worth more than 3000.00? If they file for bankruptcy do they have to sell most of their firearms?Pretty much. That's part of the trade off in bankruptcy. You get your debts off your back, but your creditors get to recover as much as they can from your non-exempt assets.

sevensix2x51
02-01-2011, 4:27 PM
i have some room in my safe, should you need it. :thumbsup:

or buy them a lockbox, and have them put the three listed ones in that box. maybe write up a document stating that the safe and it's contents are yours, have it notarized (maybe?) and post it on the safe. im just thinking out loud here.... :)

Havoc70
02-01-2011, 4:48 PM
Pretty much. That's part of the trade off in bankruptcy. You get your debts off your back, but your creditors get to recover as much as they can from your non-exempt assets.

Not necessarily, depends on what chapter you file. If you file chapter 7 you have to sell off just about everything. Chapter 13 gives you more leeway on personal property, when I filed it was about 20,000 I could keep. But Chapter 13 is a debt restructuring (usually 5 cents on the dollar) whereas chapter 7 is a complete erase.

The only person you should be getting these answers from, though, is a bankruptcy attorney.