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rick_in_lb
08-16-2006, 7:48 PM
I was wondering... Is there a list of California approved weapons that are on the Fed List. I would like to make sure I do not break any of this Great State's Laws. For example, I purchased a Yugo SKS and I was told that this is not on the California C&R List :confused: I know that there is a guidline to follow for AW's. Just wondering if there was a "Black & White" list I could look at.

Thanks

ocabj
08-16-2006, 8:04 PM
You don't need a list.

A C&R that is legal for sale to California should be:

1. 50 years or older

2. Not have any features that make it an assault weapon

3. Not have any features that make it a destructive device (case in point: Yugo M59/66 with grenade launcher)

That pretty much covers everything.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-16-2006, 8:15 PM
To know if a C&R firearm can be shipped to you in California just follow the above advice, but it should be added the the firearm has to be a rifle or shotgun too. No handguns can be shipped to you.

If you are travelling out of state and want to purchase a C&R firearm to bring back home to California yourself, you don't need to worry about how old it is and you can buy C&R handguns too. You just have to make sure...

1. you report any C&R handguns to CalDOJ by using Form FD4100A (www.streamload.com/Amendment_II/FD4100A.pdf)

2. the firearm is compliant with California law before bringing it into the state (remove grenade launcher, configure it to comply with CA A/W laws)

Librarian
08-17-2006, 11:38 AM
Other than things like AW considerations, California Penal Code seems to consistently refer to federal regs - 27 CFR 478.11 - for the definition of a curio. For example,12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state,
of any prototype pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person when the manufacture or importation is for
the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by
the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12130 to conduct an
independent test to determine whether that pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is prohibited by
this chapter, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm
to the roster of pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of
being concealed upon the person that may be sold in this state
pursuant to Section 12131.
(2) The importation or lending of a pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by employees or
authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is
prohibited by this section.
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section
478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

lunde
08-17-2006, 11:58 AM
Not all C&R handguns are over fifty years old. Bren Tens are on ATF's C&R list, which means they can be imported into California and DROSed ithout hassles.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-17-2006, 12:00 PM
Other than things like AW considerations, California Penal Code seems to consistently refer to federal regs - 27 CFR 478.11 - for the definition of a curio. For example,

27 CFR 478.11 is just the section of the Code of Federal Regulations that includes the definition of what a C&R firearm is...

27 CFR 478.11 - Definitions

...Curios or relics: Firearms which are of special interest to
collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the
current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal,
State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics
of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their
monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or
because of their association with some historical figure, period, or
event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this
category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence
that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or
that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial
channels is substantially less.

So it's the same definition that the rest of the country uses for "C&R".

VeryCoolCat
08-17-2006, 12:04 PM
Wait a minute.... If you go out of state and purchase C&R rifles, you can bring them into the state legally (even without a C&R 03ffl)?

I know that if you purchase non C&R you have to "mail them" to a california dealer and dros it from there.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-17-2006, 12:20 PM
Wait a minute.... If you go out of state and purchase C&R rifles, you can bring them into the state legally (even without a C&R 03ffl)?

Yes, but if you don't have a C&R FFL then you can only do it as long as...

1. they are long guns.
2. they are over 50 years old.
3. you purchase them from an FFL at their license premises.
4. they are legal to own in California

If you do have a C&R FFL then the age of the firearm doesn't matter, they don't have to be long guns, and you don't have to buy them from an FFL. They just have to be C&R firearms. They don't even have to be legal in California. You just need to put them in legal configuration before bringing them back.

ocabj
08-17-2006, 12:59 PM
Wait a minute.... If you go out of state and purchase C&R rifles, you can bring them into the state legally (even without a C&R 03ffl)?

You need to have a C&R to go out of state and purchase a C&R rifle or handgun.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-17-2006, 1:44 PM
You need to have a C&R to go out of state and purchase a C&R rifle or handgun.

Not quite. You don't need a C&R FFL to go out of state and purchase C&R long guns that are over 50 years old and legal to own in California if you purchase them from an out of state FFL at their licensed premises.

Federal law says it is legal to purchase a long gun while out of state if you purchase it from an FFL at their licensed premises and the transaction is legal in both states. California law exempts C&R long guns over 50 years old from having to go through the DROS as long as neither party is a California FFL Dealer.

EOD Guy
08-17-2006, 2:03 PM
Yes, but if you don't have a C&R FFL then you can only do it as long as...

1. they are long guns.
2. they are over 50 years old.
3. you purchase them from an FFL at their license premises.
4. they are legal to own in California

If you do have a C&R FFL then the age of the firearm doesn't matter, they don't have to be long guns, and you don't have to buy them from an FFL. They just have to be C&R firearms. They don't even have to be legal in California. You just need to put them in legal configuration before bringing them back.

If you do not have a C&R FFL, you cannot purchase and take possession of any firearms. California law requires that dealer sales have to go through the DROS system and entail a 10 day wait. An out of state dealer cannot sell to an unlicensed California resident unless the transaction complies with California law. The firearm would have to be sent to a California dealer for transfer.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-17-2006, 2:18 PM
California law requires that dealer sales have to go through the DROS system and entail a 10 day wait.

But out of state FFL's are not considered "Dealers" under California law. To be considered a "Dealer" under California law you need to have all of the things listed in PC Section 12071(a)(1)...

12071. (a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).

Out of state FFL's are most likely only going to have items A and B off of that list, so they are not legally licensed dealers under California law. So they don't have to DROS 50 year old long guns.

EOD Guy
08-18-2006, 6:40 AM
But out of state FFL's are not considered "Dealers" under California law. To be considered a "Dealer" under California law you need to have all of the things listed in PC Section 12071(a)(1)...



Out of state FFL's are most likely only going to have items A and B off of that list, so they are not legally licensed dealers under California law. So they don't have to DROS 50 year old long guns.

That's the reason unlicensed California residents can't buy from out of state dealers.

The point is moot anyway. Few, if any, out of state dealers will sell directly to California residents.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-18-2006, 5:54 PM
That's the reason unlicensed California residents can't buy from out of state dealers.

What's the reason?

Since they are not California Dealers they don't have to do the DROS. Since the firearm would be a 50 year old long gun, it doesn't have to go through a California Dealer.

Federal law says it's OK.
California law says it's OK.

What's the problem?

EOD Guy
08-19-2006, 8:29 AM
What's the reason?

Since they are not California Dealers they don't have to do the DROS. Since the firearm would be a 50 year old long gun, it doesn't have to go through a California Dealer.

Federal law says it's OK.
California law says it's OK.

What's the problem?

OK, I see that what you are saying would apply to 50 year old rifles and shotguns. The problem is that Federal law requires purchase thorough a licensee if you are not in your state of residence and that the purchase be legal in both states.

Most dealers in adjacent states will not have anything to do with California residents and will not be aware, or care, that the sale might be legal. I have had dealers refuse to sell to me even with a C&R FFL.

C&R FFLs might be agreeable to a sale but the sale would have to take place at their licensed premesis unless the buyer is also licensed.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-19-2006, 1:51 PM
Most dealers in adjacent states will not have anything to do with California residents and will not be aware, or care, that the sale might be legal. I have had dealers refuse to sell to me even with a C&R FFL.

I have to agree with you there, especially in Nevada. It seems that most of the FFL Dealers in Nevada have been flooded with propoganda from CalDOJ and are afraid to even talk to California residents.

But in other states I've had much better luck, to the point that two different Dealers in Washington state have even said that they didn't have to worry about California law and could sell me anything that was legal in Washington state.

Now this is clearly wrong, as Federal law requires an FFL to comply with the law of both states when selling to out of state residents. But it goes to show that a Californian needs to really know the law when buying out of state. In addition to dealing with FFL's who won't sell to you, you have to be carefull that you don't complete an illegal transaction with an FFL who is too willing to sell to you.

But if you follow the checklist I posted in post#8 of this thread you should be OK...

1. they are long guns.
2. they are over 50 years old.
3. you purchase them from an FFL at their license premises.
4. they are legal to own in California

rick_in_lb
08-19-2006, 10:06 PM
So for a final question for me (since I will be at the gunshow tomorrow) If the gun follows the 4 rules for California I could do a F2F and go home with the Rifle/Shotgun without paperwork and not having a C&R.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-19-2006, 10:39 PM
So for a final question for me (since I will be at the gunshow tomorrow) If the gun follows the 4 rules for California I could do a F2F and go home with the Rifle/Shotgun without paperwork and not having a C&R.

The advice that was given at the begining of this thread assumed that you had an C&R FFL. It listed what you could have shipped to you and then also what you could buy while out of state as a C&R FFL.

Then the question of what you could buy out of state without a C&R FFL came up. That's what those "4 rules" apply to. So if the gunshow you are going to is out of state, then follow those 4 rules. But at a gunshow it's kind of hard to follow rule #3, "purchase them from an FFL at their license premises". I believe Federal law allows a Licensed Dealer to consider a gunshow in his own state to be a temporary extension of his "licensed premises." But no such extension exists for Licensed Collectors. So if you wanted to buy something from a Licensed Collector at an out of state gunshow and you don't have your own C&R FFL, then you would have to go back to the Licensed Collectors premises (most likely his house) to complete the transaction. Probably not gonna happen.

If the gunshow is in California then you need to follow a different set of rules if you want to buy "cash and carry."

1. Must be a long gun
2. Must be at least 50 years old
3. Must NOT be purchased from an FFL Dealer.
4. Must be legal to own in California

You see here that when buying inside California rule #3 is exactly the opposite of when you buy outside of California as an unlicensed person. In California you need to buy a 50 year old long gun from a non-dealer in order to be exempt from the DROS requirement.

Whitesmoke
08-24-2006, 11:06 PM
:D That means Yugo M59's could be eligible for cash and carry in a few more years.

Are there any other SKS type rifles that are over 50 years old now? I'd love to go out of state and buy one for each of my kids (as they charge a fortune for them here in CA compared to in other states).

grammaton76
08-24-2006, 11:44 PM
Are there any other SKS type rifles that are over 50 years old now? I'd love to go out of state and buy one for each of my kids (as they charge a fortune for them here in CA compared to in other states).

I don't know myself, but if you take that question over to www.sksboards.com, they'll have solid answers for it. Over there, there's guys who know the SKS's history inside out and sideways.

Whitesmoke
08-25-2006, 2:44 AM
will do...thanks!