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anotherone
08-16-2006, 6:09 PM
Being that I'm a law abiding citizen and today I learned that not only are my fixed mag rifles going to become illegal and the DOJ does have the authority to force us to rebuild/surrender them what do I do? I'm interested in following the law, do we have to rebuild now or is there a date to do so?

Boy this whole thing is a decisive victory for the DOJ. Not only have they prevented these from being built up lawfully, but they've outlawed the rifles already in the state without requiring registration. That's bullcrap that we're being treated differently from other folks who's weapons were declared AWs.

Jicko
08-16-2006, 6:39 PM
WHAT? What are you talking about!?

Mudvayne540ld
08-16-2006, 6:41 PM
Dont worry about it. They havent done anything yet.

blkA4alb
08-16-2006, 7:00 PM
As chaos begins to ensue...nothing has changed. Until I see something written as a new law, my rifle will be kept with a pinned magazine and pistol grip.

Lets try not to freak out ok? :)

Mudvayne540ld
08-16-2006, 7:04 PM
Same here...... If they try to pull some funky ********, im removing my AR from the state.

sac7000
08-16-2006, 7:40 PM
Cage rattling, that's all it is. Relax, grab a brew and kick back. It's all good....

blacklisted
08-16-2006, 7:42 PM
The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling!

anotherone
08-16-2006, 7:43 PM
anotherone:

Are you OK?

This kind of rambling is not characteristic of you...did you just wake-up from a nap of something?:confused:

Funny you mentioned it, I actually had just woken up from a nap when I posted this topic. At this point I'm just gonna grab a brew and chill... nothing's changed yet and I know the NRA is right on top of this and has been doing a good job on it thus far to my knowledge. Plus, we've got Bill Weise (who I personally think is more on top of all this than almost anyone else out there).

Ryoushi
08-16-2006, 7:50 PM
Nothing has changed, I still have a fully functional preban $180.00 forged aluminum SCREW BILL LOCKYER commemorative paper weight. It's been worth every penny.
http://www.basementbar.net/uploaded_images/johnny%20cash%20finger-737393.bmp

Ryan HBC
08-16-2006, 10:31 PM
Absolute worst case scenario is we have to come up with the "least permanent" legal way to get the magazine on the rifle. It won't be that bad.

Nothing is permanent; I’m not sure why the DOJ has such a huge hair up their ****** that they think they have to add this legislation. A law change that will DEFINATELY only effect law abiding citizens, and won't change much. Our tax dollars at work I guess.

TKo_Productions
08-16-2006, 10:38 PM
Absolute worst case scenario is we have to come up with the "least permanent" legal way to get the magazine on the rifle.

That would definitely be the worst case scenario.

However, I don't think it's going to come down to that. As BWiese has repeatedly stated, if a new definition is added there's no statutory requirement forcing us to reconfigure our rifles. If the DOJ proceeds with their proposed definition they're going to need to open up a registration period.

hoffmang
08-16-2006, 10:46 PM
To follow Tko's comment - they will not initially admit that they have to open a reg period, but it will not take to long after that they will be forced to let us reg all sorts of things...

-Gene

TKo_Productions
08-16-2006, 10:57 PM
To follow Tko's comment - they will not initially admit that they have to open a reg period, but it will not take to long after that they will be forced to let us reg all sorts of things...

-Gene

+1

If they go down the proposed defintion road, they won't be limiting the registration to just AR/AK series weapons. Something the DOJ seriously needs to consider.

Do you know if this was brought up at the meeting today?

hoffmang
08-16-2006, 11:12 PM
That point was made again and again at today's meeting. We will get to see their response in detail in the next round of the Rulemaking Draft.

-Gene

tenpercentfirearms
08-16-2006, 11:17 PM
Here is what I would do before it is too late. Buy another 5 lowers. Then buy all of the parts that go along with them. Don't consult your wife, don't think about being responsible with your fincances, just spend as much money on OLLs as possible. That is what I would do if I were you guys.

note:Tenpercentfirearms might be a gun dealer and his opinion "might" contain some bias.

hoffmang
08-16-2006, 11:43 PM
I'm glad you put that disclaimer in there Wes. You're trying to get even more of my money...

And sadly you probably will...

-Gene

xenophobe
08-16-2006, 11:51 PM
The more convoluted and ambiguous the regulations get, the more unenforcable the statues become. This new "capacity to accept" does nothing to change the law, as it does not define permanence or a standard of alteration that is acceptable.

Even with this new regulatory definition, nothing will change. It will be just the same as before, with each DA determining what is or is not an assault weapon.

TKo_Productions
08-17-2006, 12:08 AM
In particular, given that if AB2728 passes and the AG has to update the list, it might be important to buy many different kinds of lowers;

If the governor signs the bill into law, which I seriously doubt he will, the AG will NOT update the list. The purpose of AB2728 is to remove the AGs authory to list. The bill only sets forth that the AG has until January 2007 to update the list, but does not require him to.

Mark my words, if AB2728 is signed into law, an upade to the AW list absolutely, possitively will not take place.

This bill was designed, conceived, and hatched by BL to absolve him of any blame. He has no intention of updating the list.

anotherone
08-17-2006, 2:48 AM
To follow Tko's comment - they will not initially admit that they have to open a reg period, but it will not take to long after that they will be forced to let us reg all sorts of things...

-Gene

Close to a year ago when all this madness got started I had this thought running through my head, "you know... maybe you should build a FAL while you still can." Go figure I was tapped out of funds when the latest round of DOJ regulation and BS went down. Oh well at least I got almost a dozen lowers and some cool builds.

blacklisted
08-17-2006, 3:00 AM
AB 2728 is to prevent a new list.

Not exactly. If you read one of the older analyses, it is stated that it is intended to prevent this from continuing ad infinitum "a new batch of "grandfathered" AW owners each time the list is updated". The Attorney General and the Legislature both know that people are buying these in the hope that they will be banned so that they may register them and build them with whatever features they want.

The bill does recognize that it is the AG's duty to list these firearms. It also recognizes that as soon as the list comes out, manufacturers could simply change the product name, and the process would repeat. By listing the "first batch" of receivers then losing the authority to make further additions, the AG would effectively put a stop to this. Not many people would buy any when there is no expectation to list, especially in combination with the new rulemaking.

Of course, it does not sound very likely that he would list. But why would they say "until January 1, 2007" instead of "the authority of the Attorney General to promulgate a new list of series weapons is hereby terminated"?

anotherone
08-17-2006, 3:54 AM
Of course, it does not sound very likely that he would list. But why would they say "until January 1, 2007" instead of "the authority of the Attorney General to promulgate a new list of series weapons is hereby terminated"?

You know I've often thought about that language myself and come to a similar conclusion. The language basically clarifies that there will be no more weapons added to the list. However, recently I have began to think that this is more of a means to discourage manufacturers from renaming rather than a means to discourage gun owners from hunting down new off-list recievers.

First they introduce new regulation to prevent fixed mag builds. If they have to open registration because this new regulation causes firearms to transistion to Assault Weapon status (regardless of whether said registration is DOJ or court ordered) then why not just list them also? Why not prevent large scale manufacturered recievers like Stag Arms from entering the state after this debacle? Afterall, with the January 1st, 2007 date this will be the responsibility of the AG elect not the current AG anyhow right?

chiefcrash
08-17-2006, 8:19 AM
Two Weeks!!!

midnitereaper
08-17-2006, 10:51 AM
Here is what I would do before it is too late. Buy another 5 lowers. Then buy all of the parts that go along with them. Don't consult your wife, don't think about being responsible with your fincances, just spend as much money on OLLs as possible. That is what I would do if I were you guys.

note:Tenpercentfirearms might be a gun dealer and his opinion "might" contain some bias.

I totally agree with you on this comment! :D Thats why I am going out to the gun show this weekend! wooo hoooo can't wait!

Pokey
08-17-2006, 11:01 AM
So basically we are in 'standby to standby' mode?

Apeman88
08-17-2006, 11:02 AM
AB2728 would not become law until 1/1/2007. At that point the AG loses his ability to list, therefore no listing will occur. At one point I actually wanted a list, but I am now convinced the 30,000+ lowers should remain below the radar screen with no tracking information stored on them and their owners by the government. The intent of SB23 was registration of AWs, so it is ironic that the AG/DOJ has taken this issue so personal as to not follow that intent. They are actually falling into our secret reverse psychology trap and not making us register our weapons. We owned them, they owned us back and then we owned them again, where will it end. :D

Hehe... good analysis.. I like it... so either way... WE WIN! :D

Ken

Ten Rounder
08-17-2006, 11:21 AM
What do we do now?


Wait! Just like a Maytag repairman, and wait , and wait.........

sac7000
08-17-2006, 11:38 AM
Here is what I would do before it is too late. Buy another 5 lowers. Then buy all of the parts that go along with them. Don't consult your wife, don't think about being responsible with your fincances, just spend as much money on OLLs as possible. That is what I would do if I were you guys.

note:Tenpercentfirearms might be a gun dealer and his opinion "might" contain some bias.

Hmm...excellent idea. Wife is concerned with home domestic issues and I am concerned with homeland security issues. The way I see it we both win by purchasing more lowers. Makes perfect sense to me.

grammaton76
08-17-2006, 11:45 AM
Hmm. In the event that they DO require registration, but only on rifles with the fixed-mag kit installed... anyone wanna dredge up that old Home Depot fixed mag kit? Heck, I'll post it on thegunwiki.com so it doesn't go away, if you want.

Yes, I know, there are many nice kits out there. But if it's only going to sit on a bare lower with a pg installed so that it will be a registration-required rifle, then you may as well do it cheap.

sac7000
08-17-2006, 11:49 AM
AB2728 would not become law until 1/1/2007. At that point the AG loses his ability to list, therefore no listing will occur. At one point I actually wanted a list, but I am now convinced the 30,000+ lowers should remain below the radar screen with no tracking information stored on them and their owners by the government. The intent of SB23 was registration of AWs, so it is ironic that the AG/DOJ has taken this issue so personal as to not follow that intent. They are actually falling into our secret reverse psychology trap and not making us register our weapons. We owned them, they owned us back and then we owned them again, where will it end. :D

You've hit the proverbial nail upon it's shiny bright head. In order for it to end it must have a beginning and since nobody knows for sure when the beginning began, nobody can predict the end so get ready for a long, long ride.

AxonGap
08-17-2006, 12:23 PM
As I read it, AB2728 dovetails into the new revision of “permanently fixed magazine” (Aug 16) making fixed mag kits illegal and open to confiscation w/ a minimum penalty of a wrist slap and some paperwork. Due to the sheer number of OLL’s in the state this bill is supposed to make it easier for LEO’s to confiscate contraband AR’s and process there elimination w/ as little legal recourse as possible (to speed things up). Severity of charges could range from the equivalent of a “fix-it” ticket to a misdemeanor depending on local gun laws and reg’s. The criteria are supposed to add clarity when identifying an AW;

1) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ non pinned or welded magazines that require a “tool” such as a Prince 50 kit etc. to fix the mag = possible instant confiscation and wrist slap (severity of charges depend on circumstances of detainment).
2) Non registered “listed” AR-15’s/AK-47’s (stripped or built) = confiscation & AW felony charges (severity is dictated by circumstances) no change here.
3) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ all the evil whistles and bells and removable magazine = confiscation & possible felony (severity is dictated by circumstances).
4) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ NO evil whistles and bells and removable 10rd magazine (30 if purchased before ban) = fully legal fun.
5) An AR that has a sealed magwell (FAB-10 & CA Bushmaster) and all out evilness = awkward fun that is legal.

I assume this is why the NRA, in part, is just watching this bill rather then giving it a NO vote because it doesn’t put OLL’s in AW status thus banning them. Keep‘em, love‘em, just don’t build them w/ any evil features.
.

odysseus
08-17-2006, 1:55 PM
As I read it, AB2728 dovetails into the new revision of “permanently fixed magazine” (Aug 16) making fixed mag kits illegal and open to confiscation w/ a minimum penalty of a wrist slap and some paperwork. Due to the sheer number of OLL’s in the state this bill is supposed to make it easier for LEO’s to confiscate contraband AR’s and process there elimination w/ as little legal recourse as possible (to speed things up). Severity of charges could range from the equivalent of a “fix-it” ticket to a misdemeanor depending on local gun laws and reg’s. The criteria are supposed to add clarity when identifying an AW;

1) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ non pinned or welded magazines that require a “tool” such as a Prince 50 kit etc. to fix the mag = possible instant confiscation and wrist slap (severity of charges depend on circumstances of detainment).
2) Non registered “listed” AR-15’s/AK-47’s (stripped or built) = confiscation & AW felony charges (severity is dictated by circumstances) no change here.
3) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ all the evil whistles and bells and removable magazine = confiscation & possible felony (severity is dictated by circumstances).
4) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ NO evil whistles and bells and removable 10rd magazine (30 if purchased before ban) = fully legal fun.
5) An AR that has a sealed magwell (FAB-10 & CA Bushmaster) and all out evilness = awkward fun that is legal.

I assume this is why the NRA, in part, is just watching this bill rather then giving it a NO vote because it doesn’t put OLL’s in AW status thus banning them. Keep‘em, love‘em, just don’t build them w/ any evil features.
.

Thanks - well said. That's pretty much why it will "float" the way it is since now most people go to your #4 - since this is like any other currently legal semi auto rifle you can buy now in Cali.

That is until the DOJ moves into another mode in the future to address all of those?

anotherone
08-17-2006, 2:30 PM
1) Off-list AR’s/AK’s w/ non pinned or welded magazines that require a “tool” such as a Prince 50 kit etc. to fix the mag = possible instant confiscation and wrist slap (severity of charges depend on circumstances of detainment).

I assume this is why the NRA, in part, is just watching this bill rather then giving it a NO vote because it doesn’t put OLL’s in AW status thus banning them. Keep‘em, love‘em, just don’t build them w/ any evil features.
.

There's only one problem. Current regulations and laws define a "fixed magazine" as one that is only removeable with a "tool". I followed state laws and built up a lawful rifle. Now they want to change the rules at half-time? I aquired and built my rifle lawfully, if it transistions into Assault Weapon status then the legal precident is registration not confiscation.

blkA4alb
08-17-2006, 2:37 PM
There's only one problem. Current regulations and laws define a "fixed magazine" as one that is only removeable with a "tool". I followed state laws and built up a lawful rifle. Now they want to change the rules at half-time? I aquired and built my rifle lawfully, if it transistions into Assault Weapon status then the legal precident is registration not confiscation.
Precisely.

hoffmang
08-17-2006, 2:38 PM
It make take a lawsuit to clarify it, but anotherone is right on point. Today a pinned mag OLL AR is legal. If the rules change to make it not legal, you have due process, ex post facto, and property rights to the gun in question. DOJ could buy it from you maybe but they would still have ex post facto problems.

Gun cases that are decidable on grounds that have nothing to do with firearms win even in California.

-Gene

blkA4alb
08-17-2006, 2:42 PM
It make take a lawsuit to clarify it, but anotherone is right on point. Today a pinned mag OLL AR is legal. If the rules change to make it not legal, you have due process, ex post facto, and property rights to the gun in question. DOJ could buy it from you maybe but they would still have ex post facto problems.

Gun cases that are decidable on grounds that have nothing to do with firearms win even in California.

-Gene
What anotherone is saying is what I have been saying for awhile. My rifle is legal, they will not tell me to change it to be legal. They will also not be buying it from me, sorry.

When they make something illegal that was formerly legal, it requires a registration period. Simple.

midnitereaper
08-17-2006, 2:56 PM
So if and when a registration period does come available do we take the weapon to our local police station or do we call first? How do we register? After we register does this now mean we legally own AW? If so then do we comply with the new law or the old law? I mean since I currently am complying with the current law then what do I comply with when the law changes?

grammaton76
08-17-2006, 3:10 PM
So if and when a registration period does come available do we take the weapon to our local police station or do we call first? How do we register? After we register does this now mean we legally own AW? If so then do we comply with the new law or the old law? I mean since I currently am complying with the current law then what do I comply with when the law changes?

I believe we'll cross that bridge when they come to it, and that our time would be wasted trying to decide NOW how things would work post-registration.

The DOJ has previously stated that they were going to require registration AND sb23 compliance. However, they've also backpedalled on that when they gave their reasons that they weren't going to list (because they more or less admitted that they can't do that).

So, I think it's wasted energy to try and theorize on SB23 implications interacting with registration unless they change their minds and go for reg. We'll know by Jan 1st 2007 if 2728 passes, anyway. :)