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surprised
01-17-2011, 10:06 AM
Something to keep track of...

There's a new bill (http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036.htm) being introduced to the Utah Legislature that requires applicants for a non-resident Utah concealed carry permit to hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the nonresident applicant's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law.[Quote from Subsection (1)(a)(ii)(A), currently in lines 39-42.]

The way I read it, if you are a California resident, and carry out of the state based on a Utah permit, you could be affected.

I've also been told the current wording may not reflect their intention. The Legislature session does not start until next week, and the bill has yet to go through the appropriate committees, and can even be changed before it is submitted to committee.

But I thought I'd provide a heads-up, especially for those with connections to gun-rights advocacy groups that can influence the language.

[I believe that some of the impetus behind this is the concern that residents of other states that do have reciprocity were obtaining a Utah permit to carry in their home state, instead of their own state's permit. If that's the objective, then I think this bill is the wrong way to do it.]

Lone_Gunman
01-17-2011, 10:34 AM
We cant get national reciprocity fast enough IMHO.

fairfaxjim
01-17-2011, 10:50 AM
As I read this, you not only have to have a CCW from your state of residence, but that state, or at least the issuing agency, must recognize the Utah permit, or have state reciprocity with Utah.

Since CA has reciprocity with no other states, that would preclude receiving a Utah non-resident permit. It will pretty much negate the need for a non-resident Utah permit for anyone. Hell if you have a resident permit, and your permit has reciprocity with Utah, it will probably have reciprocity with pretty much the same states as Utah = no need.

NiteQwill
01-17-2011, 11:11 AM
Even better reason to get Florida.

Window_Seat
01-17-2011, 11:42 AM
Even better reason to move to AZ. I have said I will not move to another state while the fight is on-going here in CA, but... Soon I'm not going to have a choice, it will be the end of certain eras, and there will not be much here for me (with the exception of CGN/F, which makes it difficult [for me, personally] to leave CA). AZ is a hop away (to me)...

Erik; thinking with pain.

Cokebottle
01-17-2011, 11:59 AM
Even better reason to get Florida.
+1
Florida > Utah by one state.

Teacher Sp Ed
01-17-2011, 1:11 PM
I have a Utah and Florida nonresident permit. Will the proposed Utah legislation cancel existing permits and deny renewals?

Living in the SF Bay area neither one does any good in CA., but it is nice to have them

AndrewMendez
01-17-2011, 1:18 PM
No one mentioned Oregon's CCW? Sheriff Palmer anyone??
I don't know what Utah has to gain with this bill. Liability?

sholling
01-17-2011, 1:35 PM
That's a great way to kill tourism. I'm boycotting Nevada and will boycott Utah when they fail to renew my permit.

uyoga
01-17-2011, 1:39 PM
If a person holds a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the person's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law, why would he/she want a Utah non resident permit to carry in Utah??

Am I missing something here?

NightOwl
01-17-2011, 1:44 PM
Yes. Unlike Oregon, the Utah permit is recognized by many states. So, with the non-res Utah permit, you could visit any of the states that recognize it and legally carry concealed.

That being said, I doubt this will pass. Revenue loss for no gain is arguement enough, I would think.

Window_Seat
01-17-2011, 1:47 PM
If a person holds a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the person's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law, why would he/she want a Utah non resident permit to carry in Utah??

Am I missing something here?

I think what your asking (in simple terms) is why have a Utah permit if I live in OR, and don't plan to go to Utah?

Because some states that don't recognize an OR permit, will recognize a Utah permit, and the reason for getting the Utah permit is so they can carry in those states that they go to (such as Minnesota or Ohio, if the person regularly goes to Minnesota or Ohio). I think that was your question, or I need a nap... :p

Erik.

NightOwl
01-17-2011, 1:59 PM
Didn't I just say that?

IrishPirate
01-17-2011, 2:04 PM
From what i read, you can only get a Utah CCW if you also have a CCW in your state. It's not a reciprocity issue, they're just saying you need to get your own state's CCW first and whether or not they have reciprocity you can then get a Utah CCW. So CA residents with a CCW can still get a Utah CCW even though there is no CA/Utah reciprocity.

Don't forget though that Utah is also thinking about AZ style CCW too, where anyone can CCW with their registered firearms without getting a CCW permit. Similar restrictions as AZ would apply too. I like to think of it as CCW-Basic and CCW-Advanced. You can carry to the grocery store and ATM and such, but not in "sensitive" areas unless you get the permit.

the more states that do this, the stronger our chances for National Reciprocity will be.

surprised
01-17-2011, 2:35 PM
UPDATE:

Just heard this is intended for those residents of "Shall-Issue" permits only. The language of the bill will need to change. That would mean the change in law would not apply to California residents, among other states.

Apparently Utah is concerned about loosing reciprocity with states where residents are opting to get a Utah permit, but not a permit from their own state.

Dirtbozz
01-17-2011, 3:48 PM
That's a great way to kill tourism. I'm boycotting Nevada and will boycott Utah when they fail to renew my permit.

I went to Nevada last week to get together with family that came in from back east. I planned to obtain a Nevada non- res. permit while I was there. I was not happy when Nevada decided not to recognize my Utah non-res. permit awhile back (as they did when I obtained my Utah permit). The more I thought about it the evening before the class, the more irritated I got. I skipped the class and will join your boycott of Nevada. I will drive through and spend no money while I am there. Given the short distance across Nevada on the way to Northern Arizona and Utah, it will cause me no inconvenience. I feel a whole lot better now. :D

Utah will be off my travel list also, if this bill is not corrected.

speeedracerr
01-17-2011, 3:59 PM
UPDATE:

Just heard this is intended for those residents of "Shall-Issue" permits only. The language of the bill will need to change. That would mean the change in law would not apply to California residents, among other states.

Apparently Utah is concerned about loosing reciprocity with states where residents are opting to get a Utah permit, but not a permit from their own state.

I really hope this is the case... It does appear to be logically sound, lets cross our fingers because if not... Im gonna have to get me a Florida CCW as well :(

donny douchebag
01-17-2011, 4:12 PM
Member surprised appears to be correct. See the forum at www.utahconcealedcarry.com for details.

press1280
01-17-2011, 4:43 PM
UPDATE:

Just heard this is intended for those residents of "Shall-Issue" permits only. The language of the bill will need to change. That would mean the change in law would not apply to California residents, among other states.

Apparently Utah is concerned about loosing reciprocity with states where residents are opting to get a Utah permit, but not a permit from their own state.

I believe PA would be one of the states this refers to. You can carry there as a PA resident on a UT permit.
My state of WV prohibits this, as do several other states.

Glock22Fan
01-17-2011, 4:56 PM
I wonder what is the earliest this might go into force? My Utah renewal comes up this summer, and I'm guessing that they will not withdraw issued CCW's. Guess I need to renew as soon as I can.

dustoff31
01-17-2011, 5:08 PM
[I believe that some of the impetus behind this is the concern that residents of other states that do have reciprocity were obtaining a Utah permit to carry in their home state, instead of their own state's permit. If that's the objective, then I think this bill is the wrong way to do it.]

You are probably right. This was the reason that the formal reciprocity agreement between AZ and UT fell apart a few years ago. Even though they continue to recognize each other's permits for residents.

Glock22Fan
01-17-2011, 5:27 PM
UPDATE:

Just heard this is intended for those residents of "Shall-Issue" permits only. The language of the bill will need to change. That would mean the change in law would not apply to California residents, among other states.

Apparently Utah is concerned about loosing reciprocity with states where residents are opting to get a Utah permit, but not a permit from their own state.

Well, Colorado banned all non-resident permits because some idiot residing in Colorado carried in Colorado with an out of state non-resident permit after being denied a Colorado permit for good cause. I said at that time that that law went too far, it would have been easy for them to say that non-resident permits would not be recognized when proffered by a Colorado resident except, perhaps, for a 90 day changeover period.

surprised
01-17-2011, 6:32 PM
See the forum at www.utahconcealedcarry.com for details.

Thanks for posting the link. I hadn't seen that discussion.

After reading through that thread, I see that someone from the Utah Shooting Sports Council (a group that recommends this legislation) explained the rational here, (http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10569&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p118644) and here, (http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10569&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45#p119886) and here (http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10569&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45#p119936). Other posters offer other views pro and con.

I feel better knowing that the USSC has stated the language will change. Even if I don't feel this bill is the correct approach.

RomanDad
01-17-2011, 6:55 PM
Well, Colorado banned all non-resident permits because some idiot residing in Colorado carried in Colorado with an out of state non-resident permit after being denied a Colorado permit for good cause.

Excuse me while I stop my head from spinning:willy_nilly:

press1280
01-18-2011, 2:03 AM
Well, Colorado banned all non-resident permits because some idiot residing in Colorado carried in Colorado with an out of state non-resident permit after being denied a Colorado permit for good cause. I said at that time that that law went too far, it would have been easy for them to say that non-resident permits would not be recognized when proffered by a Colorado resident except, perhaps, for a 90 day changeover period.

Hence Peterson v. Lacabe.

Window_Seat
01-18-2011, 10:15 AM
Well, Colorado banned all non-resident permits because some idiot residing in Colorado carried in Colorado with an out of state non-resident permit after being denied a Colorado permit for good cause. I said at that time that that law went too far, it would have been easy for them to say that non-resident permits would not be recognized when proffered by a Colorado resident except, perhaps, for a 90 day changeover period.Hence Peterson v. Lacabe.

You read my mind briefly, but I refrained from citing Peterson because of that in bold above. In the that case, there is no "good cause" for denial. I believe Peterson was denied his permit simply by virtue of the fact that he is not a resident of the State of CO.

Erik.

AaronHorrocks
01-18-2011, 12:13 PM
...where anyone can CCW with their registered firearms without getting a CCW permit.

I'd rather get a CCW than be required to register any of my firearms with a state agency.

N6ATF
01-18-2011, 12:25 PM
I'd rather get a CCW than be required to register any of my firearms with a state agency.

Sure about that? If CCW then equates to "unlimited, unknown arsenal", then you will be on the list to be raided.

Glock22Fan
01-18-2011, 12:37 PM
You read my mind briefly, but I refrained from citing Peterson because of that in bold above. In the that case, there is no "good cause" for denial. I believe Peterson was denied his permit simply by virtue of the fact that he is not a resident of the State of CO.

Erik.

I am not referring to Peterson v. LaCabe.

Before the Colorado law passed there was, as I said, an idiot, resident in Colorado, who had been denied a CCW and used, instead, an out of state CCW to carry in Colorado.

I believe he was a notorious drunk or something but not a federally banned person.

Beyond that I cannot remember, and I have no idea whether the sheriff or whoever it was had that discretion, but that's why Colorado does not recognize out of state permits. Nothing to do with Gray, except in as far as it affects his case now, several years later.

AaronHorrocks
01-18-2011, 12:48 PM
Sure about that? If CCW then equates to "unlimited, unknown arsenal", then you will be on the list to be raided.

I already have an "unlimited, unknown arsenal", and I'm sure I'm already on more than one list. And I'm just a law abiding patriotic citizen and service member.

jnojr
01-18-2011, 1:14 PM
We cant get national reciprocity fast enough IMHO.

I don't think that is going to happen. And I don't believe it should be forced upon any state. If a bunch of states form a voluntary compact and align issuance standards, and suddenly 45 states were all reciprocating, maybe the rest would join in. But the Federal government does not have the authority to force states to honor CCWs.

Now, if we could get a SCOTUS case upholding that concealed carry laws violate the Second Amendment, nobody would party harder than me :D

You can have a CCW right now. Just move out of California. It's a bit of a PITA but well worth it.

Glock22Fan
01-18-2011, 1:32 PM
You can have a CCW right now. Just move out of California. It's a bit of a PITA but well worth it.

Boy, am I tired of hearing that over-simplistic crap.

And you don't have to move out of California.

Most of the red counties have a nearby county where CCW's are reasonably available (my nearest is some twenty miles away). But even then, friends, family and jobs (or access to medical specialists) make moving difficult for many people.

pitchbaby
01-18-2011, 1:36 PM
I ditched getting a Florida because of my Utah... What the CRAP is going on here?!?!?!

Anybody here know how long the firearm training is good for when applying for a Florida permit?

devilinblack
01-18-2011, 1:48 PM
This might be in response to some states (NM comes to mind) cancelling reciprocity with UT because their residents were getting UT permits instead of getting one in their home state because it was substantially cheaper. Guess it would just be crazy for those other states to lower the price to something reasonable like UT has.

By the way, anyone with just about any training can get a FL permit, there is no such thing as a FL specific class, just about any firearms training will do, including previous military experience.

packnrat
01-18-2011, 3:54 PM
i tend to believe the state of Utah is not going to just dump all the revue out with the bath water.

how many thousands of dollars goes into there tax coffers each year due to out of stat ccw permits?

and how many have cost the state any problems?


.

Glock22Fan
01-18-2011, 4:44 PM
i tend to believe the state of Utah is not going to just dump all the revue out with the bath water.

how many thousands of dollars goes into there tax coffers each year due to out of stat ccw permits?

and how many have cost the state any problems?


.

Well, according to one of the posts on UtahConcealedCarry.com, the program is roughly revenue-neutral.

Cokebottle
01-18-2011, 6:17 PM
I see this as becoming a growing problem if we get 50-state recip without 50-state shall-issue.

We seriously need one of two things.... Federal CCW with preemption, or for the feds to put their foot down and mandate Constitutional Carry in all 50 states.

pitchbaby
01-18-2011, 6:25 PM
I see this as becoming a growing problem if we get 50-state recip without 50-state shall-issue.

We seriously need one of two things.... Federal CCW with preemption, or for the feds to put their foot down and mandate Constitutional Carry in all 50 states.

Don't hate me for this but... ^^^^HAHAHAHAHAHA^^^^

Like the Feds would ever put their foot down for anything that makes sense!

surprised
01-25-2011, 3:24 PM
Update:

Utah S.B. 36 (http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036.htm) has been replaced by S.B. 36 Substitute (http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036s01.htm). As far as I can tell they shuffled some paragraphs, but they have not yet made the change about "shall issue" states mentioned here and elsewhere.

Gray Peterson
01-25-2011, 3:32 PM
Well, Colorado banned all non-resident permits because some idiot residing in Colorado carried in Colorado with an out of state non-resident permit after being denied a Colorado permit for good cause. I said at that time that that law went too far, it would have been easy for them to say that non-resident permits would not be recognized when proffered by a Colorado resident except, perhaps, for a 90 day changeover period.

Yep, which an application of federal litigation pain is being applied to Colorado and Denver city (the ones who screamed the most for this law to be passed) to be specific for their stupidity....

Window_Seat
01-25-2011, 3:52 PM
WELLLLLP...

Since my license doesn't expire until late 2015, and the "act" doesn't call for the suspension or revoking of my license because of where I reside, I'm good to go until late 2015, and hopefully we'll have 50 state recip by then.

I don't think they dare revoke or suspend existing licenses? Good thing I waited until last November to apply. I was kicking myself for that, now I'm giving myself an attadude. :eek:

I doubt that this will happen, but folks better start to apply now just incase.

Or maybe it's a ploy to get the CFP app. floodgates to open.

My FL is on it's way as I type.

Erik.

Gray Peterson
01-25-2011, 6:03 PM
Well, tell Utah that I'm suing them of they refuse to renew my license under equal protection and Board of Regents v. Roth (liberty and property interest).

Jack L
01-25-2011, 6:15 PM
I sent in my paperwork for the Utah CCW and they cashed my check instantly. I suspect they are issuing to CA residents with no problem.

Cokebottle
01-25-2011, 6:41 PM
I've been hearing (from Utah residents) that they are moving toward Constitutional Carry.
The CCW program is not revenue positive (as mentioned before, it's neutral), and many in the State Government are looking at it as a mere formality that isn't needed.

pitchbaby
01-25-2011, 7:07 PM
I've been hearing (from Utah residents) that they are moving toward Constitutional Carry.
The CCW program is not revenue positive (as mentioned before, it's neutral), and many in the State Government are looking at it as a mere formality that isn't needed.

That just makes way too much sense. Too bad Cali can't see it that way.

Cokebottle
01-25-2011, 7:29 PM
That just makes way too much sense. Too bad Cali can't see it that way.
No kidding.

I mentioned it to my wife and got a raised eyebrow.
She fully understood when reminded that criminals can't legally own guns in the first place, so they're going to carry them illegally since they don't fear getting caught.

"Are you currently a prohibited person?" should be the only question on the CCW app or from the interviewer.

Jack L
01-26-2011, 4:27 PM
UPDATE. I just contacted;

John Spangler
Webmaster
Utah Shooting Sports Council
http://utahshootingsports.com


John states that USSC has fixed the issue.

nitrofc
01-26-2011, 4:36 PM
So wait a minute......I'm trying to catch up with things here.

Are you saying my Utah Permit is worthless now if I don't have a CA CCW?



UPDATE. I just contacted;

John Spangler
Webmaster
Utah Shooting Sports Council
http://utahshootingsports.com


He stated that yes, CA is out of luck. Looks like Florida will be getting lots of applications now.

Jack L
01-26-2011, 4:42 PM
So wait a minute......I'm trying to catch up with things here.

Are you saying my Utah Permit is worthless now if I don't have a CA CCW?


John at USSC says they have fixed this issue. So, it appears no worries if Utah goes with USSC's wording.

Gray Peterson
01-26-2011, 4:43 PM
OK, everyone needs to "slow your roll" there and not panic here. Did everyone forget their basic american government or civics lessons here? It needs to pass the House and the Senate and be signed by the Governor. There's still time.

nitrofc
01-26-2011, 4:51 PM
OK, everyone needs to "slow your roll" there and not panic here. Did everyone forget their basic american government or civics lessons here? It needs to pass the House and the Senate and be signed by the Governor. There's still time.

Thanks a bunch for the clarification!!

Window_Seat
01-26-2011, 5:19 PM
OK, everyone needs to "slow your roll" there and not panic here. Did everyone forget their basic american government or civics lessons here? It needs to pass the House and the Senate and be signed by the Governor. There's still time.

Gray beat me to it. QFT.

Erik.

Jack L
01-26-2011, 5:26 PM
OK, everyone needs to "slow your roll" there and not panic here. Did everyone forget their basic american government or civics lessons here? It needs to pass the House and the Senate and be signed by the Governor. There's still time.


Looking good to date. Thanks to USSC.

Merle
01-26-2011, 6:26 PM
Maybe they will feel sorry for CA and help us out, like a pity clause for CA or something?

Now that would be funny.

"...except for bona fide residents of the Peoples Republic of California, for whom we extend our deepest sympathies"

pitchbaby
01-26-2011, 6:44 PM
Now that would be funny.

"...except for bona fide residents of the Peoples Republic of California, for whom we extend our deepest sympathies"

All they would have to do is leave an exception for residents of all states that are anything other than shall issue. That seems like a realistic thing to push them for.

Window_Seat
01-26-2011, 6:53 PM
All they would have to do is leave an exception for residents of all states that are anything other than shall issue. That seems like a realistic thing to push them for.

This is something we should be pushing for, by calling every one of the the legislators in the State of Utah and asking them to add a clause that allows folks from may/no issue states to apply. If that were in place, this is actually something that would be alright with me, because it encourages folks to apply in their own states, while allowing OOS residents from M/NI states to apply (if they had that clause in place).

I will be calling them tomorrow.

Erik.

Glock22Fan
01-26-2011, 7:01 PM
All they would have to do is leave an exception for residents of all states that are anything other than shall issue. That seems like a realistic thing to push them for.

My understanding from reading the lengthy threads on the Utah site (see links early in this thread) is that this is exactly what they plan to do, but haven't put the wording in the bill yet.

I'd sure like to know what John Spangler told JackL as the reason that we'll be out of luck, as that is not what they are saying on the Utah board.

My Utah CCW is due for renewal this summer. Anyone know when the new bill is likely to come into force?

pitchbaby
01-26-2011, 8:36 PM
This is something we should be pushing for, by calling every one of the the legislators in the State of Utah and asking them to add a clause that allows folks from may/no issue states to apply. If that were in place, this is actually something that would be alright with me, because it encourages folks to apply in their own states, while allowing OOS residents from M/NI states to apply (if they had that clause in place).

I will be calling them tomorrow.

Erik.

Leave a number for who you talk to. Let's see if we can get everyone to call the same people.

Window_Seat
01-26-2011, 9:41 PM
Utah State Legislative Roster (http://le.utah.gov/Documents/2010roster.pdf)

Erik.

Eat Dirt
01-26-2011, 10:00 PM
Just sent my renew $$$$ in today !!!!

:hide:

Jack L
01-27-2011, 5:08 AM
My understanding from reading the lengthy threads on the Utah site (see links early in this thread) is that this is exactly what they plan to do, but haven't put the wording in the bill yet.

I'd sure like to know what John Spangler told JackL as the reason that we'll be out of luck, as that is not what they are saying on the Utah board.

My Utah CCW is due for renewal this summer. Anyone know when the new bill is likely to come into force?

"I'd sure like to know what John Spangler told JackL as the reason that we'll be out of luck, as that is not what they are saying on the Utah board."

Second update....................just passing on last update as of late yesterday. Thank you USSC.

"Read the latest version of the bill. This has been fixed (at USSC's
request) to ONLY require "home state first" if the applicant's state
recognizes Utah permits, which Kalifornia does not. Passed Senate Committee
5-0 and headed for full Senate.

Submit your application, or better yet, flee to a free state while you still
can."

Gray Peterson
01-27-2011, 7:30 AM
"Read the latest version of the bill. This has been fixed (at USSC's
request) to ONLY require "home state first" if the applicant's state
recognizes Utah permits, which Kalifornia does not. Passed Senate Committee
5-0 and headed for full Senate.

Submit your application, or better yet, flee to a free state while you still
can."

USSC needs to shut the hell up.

Glock22Fan
01-27-2011, 7:48 AM
"I'd sure like to know what John Spangler told JackL as the reason that we'll be out of luck, as that is not what they are saying on the Utah board."

Second update....................just passing on last update as of late yesterday. Thank you USSC.

"Read the latest version of the bill. This has been fixed (at USSC's
request) to ONLY require "home state first" if the applicant's state
recognizes Utah permits, which Kalifornia does not. Passed Senate Committee
5-0 and headed for full Senate.

Submit your application, or better yet, flee to a free state while you still
can."

So, no change for us. Good. Thanks Jack for passing this on.

pitchbaby
01-27-2011, 9:25 AM
"I'd sure like to know what John Spangler told JackL as the reason that we'll be out of luck, as that is not what they are saying on the Utah board."

Second update....................just passing on last update as of late yesterday. Thank you USSC.

"Read the latest version of the bill. This has been fixed (at USSC's
request) to ONLY require "home state first" if the applicant's state
recognizes Utah permits, which Kalifornia does not. Passed Senate Committee
5-0 and headed for full Senate.

Submit your application, or better yet, flee to a free state while you still
can."

Well then Good on Utah... I was worried there cause my Utah permit doesn't expire for 4 more years... so I figured I would be screwed on renewal.

Heck... I'd move there if it wasn't so DANG COLD!

1BigPea
01-27-2011, 11:25 AM
tagged for info...

Dirtbozz
01-27-2011, 12:21 PM
tagged for info...

Under "thread tools" near the top of the page, a person wishing to be advised of a posting in a thread, can "subscribe" to that thread and be sent an e-mail with that info. This will keep any postings relevant to the subject. :)

jmsenk
01-27-2011, 12:29 PM
I have a Florida Permit from when I lived in Florida, and yes, ideas like this one in the Utah legislature arn't going to do anything but reduce their revenue and make people angry. I give courses here in Cali for non-resident Florida permits, and I agree that the wording of this billwould mean that a Utah permit is more or less useless to a non-resident.

N6ATF
01-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Under "thread tools" near the top of the page, a person wishing to be advised of a posting in a thread, can "subscribe" to that thread and be sent an e-mail with that info. This will keep any postings relevant to the subject. :)

Unless you're on the iPhone skin, then you have to switch to full view, pinch and zoom to hit the drop-down if you don't use a stylus or have teeny tiny fingers.

Dirtbozz
01-27-2011, 1:12 PM
Unless you're on the iPhone skin, then you have to switch to full view, pinch and zoom to hit the drop-down if you don't use a stylus or have teeny tiny fingers.

I didn't realize that the vast majority of viewers used the Iphone (95% maybe?). I just tried it on my DroidX and found the process to be very easy and quick.

I guess the small minority (the other 5%) that are frustrated by the time wasted to open the notification e-mail, clicking on the link in that e-mail hoping to see relevant information, only to find "tagged" in the e-mail body just have to deal with it. :D

I guess the "majority" rules, as it should be.

groovielou
01-27-2011, 1:42 PM
I read the revised bill, I didn't see anything about exempting California or "may-issue" states.

http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036s01.htm

Can someone please point out where this is?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this bill, in its revised version, STILL requires two additional stipulations.

This bill requires a nonresident applicant for a concealed firearm permit to hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit from the applicant's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with the Utah concealed firearm permit law.

I believe the description of the bill on the USSC's web page is misleading:

"Will require applicants for a NON-RESIDENT Utah Concealed Weapons Permit to have a permit from their home state first, if they are a "shall issue state." People from states like Vermont, Alaska and Arizona which do not require permits, or from states which are NOT "shall issue" can apply without a home state permit. USSC believes this will help stop a disturbing trend towards dropping recognition of Utah permits by some states. Although other excuses are given, it appears their real issue is loss of revenue from their residents who have been getting Utah's cheaper and more widely recognized permits instead of one from their home state."

Where does the stipulation in BOLD cited in the bill? Am I missing something?

N6ATF
01-27-2011, 1:48 PM
I didn't realize that the vast majority of viewers used the Iphone (95% maybe?). I just tried it on my DroidX and found the process to be very easy and quick.

I guess the small minority (the other 5%) that are frustrated by the time wasted to open the notification e-mail, clicking on the link in that e-mail hoping to see relevant information, only to find "tagged" in the e-mail body just have to deal with it. :D

I guess the "majority" rules, as it should be.

I have daily notifications, not instant... if they were instant I would never have time to eat, drink, or use the loo. LOL

Window_Seat
01-27-2011, 2:46 PM
I think that the USSC knows something that we don't, or they simply made a boo boo that needs to be corrected.

I addressed this issue to them by sending a note to the USSC and contacting Senator Valentine.

Senator Valentine's assistant (Jeff) indicated to me that the 2 are working together to come up with something to accommodate those from states which don't issue, or may issue.

This reply to my email from John Spangler of the USSC:

Erik- Thanks for contacting Utah Shooting Sports Council.

We are workikng with Sen. Valentine on this, and the intent is to only
require home state permits from people living in states that are "shall
issue." It still needs some tweaking in the language to make it right, but
we are confident it will be fixed.

If not a USSC Member, we invite you to join to help defend safe and legal
gun ownership and use in Utah. Print out the membership application at:
http://utahshootingsports.com/usscMembApp.htm (http://utahshootingsports.com/usscmembapp.htm)

John Spangler
Webmaster
Utah Shooting Sports Council
http://utahshootingsports.com (http://www.utahshootingsports.com)

Gray Peterson
01-27-2011, 4:53 PM
Ask John this question: Why is this being done? Is there some sort of crisis that's requiring a major backslide in rights and availability in licenses? Why is a very strong pro-gun rights state doing this crap?

groovielou
01-27-2011, 5:20 PM
He sounds like a politician to me... He can "say" they are "working" on anything they like.

The facts are:
a) The bill in its current revised form is making its way through the legislature with no opposition. 5-0-1 vote. (so far)
b) No additional revised drafts have been presented with any exemptions.
c) The USSC has posted misleading info on their website.

I can only assume...
a) The USSC does not care what happens to California with regard to this bill. They are a Utah shooter association.
b) There is no motivation for a "may-issue" exemption.
c) MOST...Politicians only care about the opinion of their constituents (voters) opinions.... IN UTAH...

If I was a betting man, this bill is going forward...

Glock22Fan
01-27-2011, 6:23 PM
Ask John this question: Why is this being done? Is there some sort of crisis that's requiring a major backslide in rights and availability in licenses? Why is a very strong pro-gun rights state doing this crap?

If you read the whole thread on UtahConcealed Carry website (link somewhere near the start of this thread), the reason is because some other states, Texas being one, are apparently threatening to no longer recognize Utah's CCW. The stated reason may well be the same as Nevada (either no practical shooting test or an inadequate one) but it is thought that the real reason is that some Texans get Utah CCW's to avoid getting a Tx CCW - which is a lot more expensive - and Texas wants its money.

Therefore, the story goes, this bill is designed to preserve the reciprocity that the Utah CCW offers, while not stopping anyone from getting one.

Hope this helps.

dustoff31
01-27-2011, 6:53 PM
c) MOST...Politicians only care about the opinion of their constituents (voters) opinions.... IN UTAH...

Assuming that's true, seeing as how they are politicians IN UTAH, serving in the UTAH legislature, and are elected by, and answerable only to UTAH voters that would be a pretty reasonable position to take, would it not?

Window_Seat
01-27-2011, 7:27 PM
***UPDATE***

Here is the second email I received, and according to the USSC (John Spangler):

Erik- Here is the amendment which should be added on the Senate floor in the next day or two:

("4) (a) In addition to meeting the other qualifications for the issuance of a concealed firearm permit under this section, a nonresident applicant who resides in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law shall:
(i) hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the nonresident applicant's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law; and
(ii) submit a photocopy or electronic copy of the nonresident applicant's current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit referred to in Subsection (4)(a)(i)."

So it looks like this is our fix. It's looks misleading at first glance, but this is our fix. It makes it so that the law applies only to those who live in states which have reciprocity agreements, not non-residents of "no issue" or "may issue" states with no reciprocity agreements.

ETA: He only states that it "should" be added on the "Senate floor" in the "next day or two". It's hard to tell if it will have to go through committee again by virtue of there being that kind of a change, but we'll see.

Erik.

Cokebottle
01-27-2011, 9:22 PM
arn't going to do anything but reduce their revenue and make people angry.
Fixed it for you.

The program is revenue-neutral.
As I mentioned, Utah residents have been telling me that there is a lot of "quiet noise" about going Constitutional Carry because criminals can't legally own guns to begin with and so few people are denied.
It's revenue-neutral, so eliminating it would allow the employees currently handling CCW to work other projects.

Cokebottle
01-27-2011, 9:30 PM
I read the revised bill, I didn't see anything about exempting California or "may-issue" states.

http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036s01.htm (http://le.utah.gov/%7E2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036s01.htm)

Can someone please point out where this is?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this bill, in its revised version, STILL requires two additional stipulations.

This bill requires a nonresident applicant for a concealed firearm permit to hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit from the applicant's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with the Utah concealed firearm permit law.
There ya go.
California does not recognize the Utah permit so we are exempt.

I agree that the wording of the law is unclear... following the exact wording, we could be required to hold a Florida or AZ permit.

Better wording might be:
This bill requires a nonresident applicant for a concealed firearm permit to hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit from the applicant's state of residency if that state recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with the Utah concealed firearm permit law.

Currently, the Utah (resident) permit is not recognized by 16 states and DC. The non-resident permit is not recognized by a few more.

Goldseeker
01-28-2011, 12:45 AM
Sent email with link to this thread to W. Clark Aposhian of Utah for information (my Utah CCW connection)

Glock22Fan
01-28-2011, 7:02 AM
Erik- Here is the amendment which should be added on the Senate floor in the next day or two:

("4) (a) In addition to meeting the other qualifications for the issuance of a concealed firearm permit under this section, a nonresident applicant who resides in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law shall:
(i) hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the nonresident applicant's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law; and
(ii) submit a photocopy or electronic copy of the nonresident applicant's current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit referred to in Subsection (4)(a)(i)."

Well, that should be all right then, even though I can imagine (but don't know of) a state that is not Shall Issue but still recognizes the Utah permit. Indeed, depending upon how the Thune amendment is phrased, California might be forced to recognize the Utah permit, and then where would we be?

surprised
01-28-2011, 7:31 AM
UPDATE:

The amendment (http://le.utah.gov/~2011/pamend/sb0036s01.sfa.01.htm) is in. It now mentions:
nonresident applicant who resides in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law

groovielou
01-28-2011, 7:43 AM
Wait, I'm confused....

nonresident applicant who resides in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law

a) California does NOT recognize the validity of the Utah permit.
b) California does NOT have reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law.

Someone please explain it to me slowly... How does this exempt Californians?

Glock22Fan
01-28-2011, 8:04 AM
Wait, I'm confused....



a) California does NOT recognize the validity of the Utah permit.
b) California does NOT have reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law.

Someone please explain it to me slowly... How does this exempt Californians?

Such a person - you or me - does not have to get a California permit first.

Window_Seat
01-28-2011, 8:17 AM
For those states that are shall issue, if those states don't have a reciprocity agreement, the person still qualifies as an applicant, eg: OR, NV, SC, etc, so everyone is good, unless someone can't get a permit in their own state.

(ETA): Since we live in CA, and by virtue of the fact thatwe can't get a permit from CA (unless we donate $50,000 to... nevermind), we automatically qualify for a Utah permit.

I think this could still have the right elements for a lawsuit because it is (to me) an "I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine" type of backroom deal, and EP could be an issue? I pass the background check if I live in OR (as an example), but suddenly one day later, I don't pass the BG check because I moved to Colorado, and don't have my Colorado permit (yet) because it takes 90 days for my Colorado permit to arrive in the mail. Is this not something strikingly similar in the Peterson complaint? (ETA again): (see BRIEF in Opposition to 34 Cross MOTION for Summary Judgment (http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.cod.117112/gov.uscourts.cod.117112.40.0.pdf) filed by Plaintiff Gray Peterson) (page 5, 2) (might not be an identical circumstance, but in my opinion, strikingly similar to that circumstance).

Amici of several states (including Utah) (http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.cod.117112/gov.uscourts.cod.117112.39.1.pdf), to SCOTUS in McDonald:

Enforcement of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms against state and local governments is especially important in an era of robust interstate travel and commerce

Accordingly, the States have an interest in ensuring that citizens who must travel in the course of their personal or professional lives remain free from unconstitutional arrest and prosecution for engaging in their right to self-defense by carrying properly-licensed weapons.

What is the meaning of "properly-licensed" in the eyes of Utah, and can they defend that meaning in court following Nordyke SS (strict scrutiny), and Peterson being ruled in our favor?

Erik.

Jack L
01-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Such a person - you or me - does not have to get a California permit first.

THIS

Window_Seat
01-28-2011, 2:25 PM
***UPDATE***

Amendment adopted and passed by the Senate, 28-0

Erik.

pitchbaby
01-28-2011, 2:43 PM
So... Are we still eligible if Thune passes because we are still not shall issue?

Jack L
01-28-2011, 2:51 PM
So... Are we still eligible if Thune passes because we are still not shall issue?

I hope so but hard to keep up on this. My permit is just about at the door anyway and the folks in Utah have been real nice responding to my "Where's my permit" questions. Can't wait to see the John M. Browning 1911 flag flying at Utah's state capitol building.

Keep us posted..............thanks

Goldseeker
01-31-2011, 9:01 AM
"..., let them know that this was an error at legislative research and is being corrected immediately.

Not to worry.

Put my name on it ,

Clark Aposhian
clark@fairwarning.biz

FairWarning Training
Too Close for Missiles,
Switching to Guns

7324 S Union Park Ave #201
Midvale, Utah 84047
801-943-5322"

surprised
01-31-2011, 9:08 AM
Update:

Bill was approved by the Senate (no votes against). It now goes to the House.

As usual, if approved in the House with no amendments after the requisite readings, it goes to the Governor for signing.