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jpigeon
01-16-2011, 7:57 PM
How do you figure out where school zones are???

IrishPirate
01-16-2011, 8:00 PM
that's the problem.......

jpigeon
01-16-2011, 8:04 PM
Come on guys does any 1 no an easy way or does everyone just take a WAG at it???

Librarian
01-16-2011, 8:17 PM
There is no way.

No part of any law requires them to be marked on the ground.

There are no 'official' maps, nor any legal requirement that such a map be drawn.

People have tried various online mapping tools to provide indicative information, but nothing exists that has acceptable precision or guaranteed completeness.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 8:18 PM
And, even better, it includes private schools, which may not even have signs up.

I mean, it's a ridiculous law. We'll obviously challenge it once we have a right to "bear" that is clearly recognized by the courts.

IrishPirate
01-16-2011, 8:19 PM
again I say.......that's the problem.....

zinfull
01-16-2011, 8:21 PM
If you see yellow crosswalks then you are near a school.

jerry

dantodd
01-16-2011, 8:39 PM
And, even better, it includes private schools, which may not even have signs up.

I mean, it's a ridiculous law. We'll obviously challenge it once we have a right to "bear" that is clearly recognized by the courts.

Oh, and most homeschools are legally private schools in CA because of our odd truancy laws you have to go through certain hoops to home school your kids and one of the most common is to get a "private school" certificate.

The CA department of education keeps a database of all the certificates it issues. But they DON'T include schools below a certain size. Which all means it is literally impossible to find out.

Further, even if you grabbed the list and tried to create a circle around the address given that might not work because you don't know where to draw the line as the law says within 1000' of school grounds which means more than just the center of the property. (leaving aside mapping inaccuracies etc.)

Dr.Lou
01-16-2011, 8:53 PM
Since it's a federal law, most cops don't even know about it, and unless it's tied to some other violation, the Feds aren't going to waste their time to prosecute it. It's another feel-good law. I don't know of anyone that has been arrested or prosecuted for violating it. Nonetheless, I don't condone going out of your way to violate it either.

dantodd
01-16-2011, 8:56 PM
Since it's a federal law, most cops don't even know about it, and unless it's tied to some other violation, the Feds aren't going to waste their time to prosecute it. It's another feel-good law. I don't know of anyone that has been arrested or prosecuted for violating it. Nonetheless, I don't condone going out of your way to violate it either.

CA has its own GFSZ law and they do prosecute it. We have one member who is currently a prohibited person due to just such a prosecution.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 8:58 PM
There's a California one, too.

Pig Rifle
01-16-2011, 9:47 PM
There is no way.

No part of any law requires them to be marked on the ground.

There are no 'official' maps, nor any legal requirement that such a map be drawn.

People have tried various online mapping tools to provide indicative information, but nothing exists that has acceptable precision or guaranteed completeness.

^^ This is true. That being said, Google Earth is a good resource for measuring/finding many schools. Using the "ruler" function set to "feet" measurement, you can click and drag from a school's known boundaries to measure out to 1000'. But again, this is not a 100% fail-safe method. The GFSZ law was pretty much crafted with the intention of it being impossible to abide by.

Librarian
01-16-2011, 9:57 PM
Further, even if you grabbed the list and tried to create a circle around the address given that might not work because you don't know where to draw the line as the law says within 1000' of school grounds which means more than just the center of the property. (leaving aside mapping inaccuracies etc.)

Though easy to do, circles are just the wrong shape.

Here's San Francisco: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj284/Librarian_bucket/SFschools.jpg

This is not likely to have every K-12 school on it. These circles are centered on the recorded Lat/Long of the street address, which is certainly not in the center of the also-certainly not circular property. (And the circles in the water are database errors; we know those are wrong -- how many are off by just 100 feet?)

joelogic
01-16-2011, 10:13 PM
SF posts its own map. More of SF is covered than not.
http://www.sf-planning.org/index.aspx?page=2337

Librarian
01-16-2011, 10:37 PM
SF posts its own map. More of SF is covered than not.
http://www.sf-planning.org/index.aspx?page=2337
Interesting! I didn't know about that page.

Of course, they're evidently using (sort of) circles as well, so that's not a precision instrument. (ETA although the more closely I look at it, comparing to another Google Maps window, the better it looks. Someone put some work into this one.)

I do believe they have a more accurate list of schools than the one I used for my effort.

joelogic
01-16-2011, 11:16 PM
It has to be because SF gives recommendations of where to open MCD's. This city is crazy. I hope someone puts good use to the hard work someone spent on it.


http://www.sf-planning.org/ftp/files/publications_reports/library_of_cartography/MCD_Maps.pdf

ALSystems
01-16-2011, 11:50 PM
There is a nice description of Federal and CA versions of the GFSZ in the calguns wiki:
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones

dantodd
01-17-2011, 7:15 AM
We ought to PRA this information. I can see it being extremely valuable when 626.9 gets challenged and their defense is that over 50% of the city is a "sensitive place"

MudCamper
01-17-2011, 7:24 AM
How do you figure out where school zones are???

Come on guys does any 1 no an easy way or does everyone just take a WAG at it???

This is why Theseus was convicted of 626.9. (well this and an anti-gun judge)

Even if you find a map of all public schools, it won't be enough. You'll never be sure about all the private schools. Where I live there are many many more private schools than there are public.

obeygiant
01-17-2011, 8:18 AM
We ought to PRA this information. I can see it being extremely valuable when 626.9 gets challenged and their defense is that over 50% of the city is a "sensitive place"

No need, we already have this information. Sorry, I misread that. The information specific to SF and how they determined the 1000 ft. zone would be very interesting to get.

Dreaded Claymore
01-17-2011, 8:27 AM
If I was still at university, and had access to the ESRI ArcGIS software (designed to help solve EXACTLY this type of problem), I would be able to solve this problem handily. I'd just get the data off the Internet, select all school property, and buffer it to 1,000 feet (it's a little bit technical). Unfortunately I have left university, and the software costs about $10,000. :(

obeygiant
01-17-2011, 8:39 AM
If I was still at university, and had access to the ESRI ArcGIS software (designed to help solve EXACTLY this type of problem), I would be able to solve this problem handily. I'd just get the data off the Internet, select all school property, and buffer it to 1,000 feet (it's a little bit technical). Unfortunately I have left university, and the software costs about $10,000. :(

I like where you are going with this but....

It actually can't be done, at least right now, because some counties do not have a GIS department let alone data to provide. Of the counties that do have GIS departments, many of them do not have the parcel/property data for schools.

ETA:
We do have access to ArcGIS as well as a GIS instructor for a UC school.

xcop
01-17-2011, 9:09 AM
First the US Supreme Court many years ago invalidated the Federal act saying Congress couldnt stretch the commerce clause to justify the law. Afterall the guns werent in commerce.
I am retired now but the law was always interpreted by us to be school property and the property would have to be marked as such or obvious to an normal person. Meaning a playground next to the school,school grounds etc. The law doesnt apply to driving by etc so if you are coming or going shooting,hunting or just purchased a gun its not a problem. Also living near a school wouldnt qualify. In my time on I never knew of a single case the LA DA filed for this. Even if we arrested a gangbanger on a school playground carrying concealed they never filed it. They would just file the carrying concealed and loaded charge and most of the time the firearm was stolen so they would toss that in.

goober
01-17-2011, 9:15 AM
There is no way.

No part of any law requires them to be marked on the ground.

There are no 'official' maps, nor any legal requirement that such a map be drawn.

People have tried various online mapping tools to provide indicative information, but nothing exists that has acceptable precision or guaranteed completeness.

this is true, to an extent.
a couple folks here at CGN/CGF have put a lot of effort into creating such a resource. the work has stalled somewhat, but will continue.
the problem isn't the mapping tools, those are readily available.
the real stumbling block is the lack of current and accurate databases of school locations.
we've surveyed the counties and requested their records, but you'd be surprised how limited those records actually are.


^^ This is true. That being said, Google Earth is a good resource for measuring/finding many schools. Using the "ruler" function set to "feet" measurement, you can click and drag from a school's known boundaries to measure out to 1000'. But again, this is not a 100% fail-safe method. The GFSZ law was pretty much crafted with the intention of it being impossible to abide by.

GE's school locations are a good start, but are terribly inaccurate in many locations. while you might think an inaccurate map is better than nothing at all, what we really need is something you can have some confidence in. i personally would not want to rely on GE's school database to keep me out of prison.
then, as Librarian noted, the point locations for the schools (which may be inaccurate to begin with) are useless in determining the 1000' GFSZ boundaries. for that you need a parcel map. those are available for some counties, but not all. and some counties will only provide them at significant cost.

No need, we already have this information. Sorry, I misread that. The information specific to SF and how they determined the 1000 ft. zone would be very interesting to get.

yes, that would be useful.

If I was still at university, and had access to the ESRI ArcGIS software (designed to help solve EXACTLY this type of problem), I would be able to solve this problem handily. I'd just get the data off the Internet, select all school property, and buffer it to 1,000 feet (it's a little bit technical). Unfortunately I have left university, and the software costs about $10,000. :(


I like where you are going with this but....



ETA:
We do have access to ArcGIS as well as a GIS instructor for a UC school.

you make it sound really easy, Dreaded Claymore :D
conceptually, you are absolutely right. but as i noted above, the real difficulty is in getting current, accurate information on which to base the buffer creation.
trust me... getting the school data for all 58 counties, and vetting/groundtruthing it (removing false positives, ensuring none have been missed) is a ton of work. getting the parcel data is also not easy. you've trivialized those major efforts with a statement like "I'd just get the the data off the internet", which belies the fact that you have not really looked to see how difficult that really is.
once we have data we in which can have confidence, the buffer creation is, as you described, no big deal.
anyway, the work will continue.
oh, and it's CSU, not UC :D

obeygiant
01-17-2011, 9:25 AM
you make it sound really easy, Dreaded Claymore :D
conceptually, you are absolutely right. but as i noted above, the real difficulty is is getting current, accurate information on which to base the buffer creation.
trust me... getting the school data for all 58 counties, and vetting/groundtruthing it (removing false positives, ensuring none have been missed) is a ton of work. getting the parcel data is also not easy. you've trivialized those major efforts with a statement like "I'd just get the the data off the internet", which belies the fact that you have not really looked to see how difficult that really is.

I'm sure that many on this board will back me in saying that if there is data to be found online, I will find it. It is unfortunately not as simple as grabbing the most recent census/tiger line data.

goober
01-17-2011, 9:38 AM
I'm sure that many on this board will back me in saying that if there is data to be found online, I will find it. It is unfortunately not as simple as grabbing the most recent census/tiger line data.

agreed on all counts :D

Skidmark
01-17-2011, 9:55 AM
If you see yellow crosswalks then you are near a school.

Which is of no help whatsoever if a person cannot distinguish white from yellow, but also because there is no correlation between yellow crosswalks and the thousand-foot envelope beyond school property boundaries.

Dreaded Claymore
01-17-2011, 10:08 AM
you make it sound really easy, Dreaded Claymore :D
conceptually, you are absolutely right. but as i noted above, the real difficulty is is getting current, accurate information on which to base the buffer creation.
trust me... getting the school data for all 58 counties, and vetting/groundtruthing it (removing false positives, ensuring none have been missed) is a ton of work. getting the parcel data is also not easy. you've trivialized those major efforts with a statement like "I'd just get the the data off the internet", which belies the fact that you have not really looked to see how difficult that really is.
once we have data we in which can have confidence, the buffer creation is, as you described, no big deal.
anyway, the work will continue.
oh, and it's CSU, not UC :D

I have taken a total of two classes on GIS, and do NOT have a ton of experience. I figured collecting the data from counties and such would be a fair bit of work, but I figured that accurate data already existed. Apparently I was wrong though. I didn't mean to trivialize the difficulty of the endeavor.

Maybe I'll collect data myself, on foot, for Livermore, at least, and send it to Obeygiant.

Andy Taylor
01-17-2011, 10:09 AM
Dreaded Claymore-While I am sure everyone here would appreciate the effort, you would miss schools. Particularly home schools. And the data on those can change every couple of months. "I didn't home school Little Johnny last quarter, but I am home schooling him now. We will decide later about next quarter." How can anyone possibly be kept up to date on that? I doubt that many of the home schooling families would appreciate that data being public. My oldest son was home schooled. I know I would not have wanted that made public.

Dreaded Claymore
01-17-2011, 10:18 AM
Even with this, how do you know where all school property is located? There is no way that I am aware of to get the location of every public, private, and home school, and be sure you didn't miss one. Also it would need to be updated regularly. "I didn't home school little Johnny last quarter, but I am this quarter."

Like I posted above, I figured it would be easy, but people such as Obeygiant showed me that I was incorrect.

Also, do homeschooling homes count as schools for the purpose of GFSZ? Does that mean I have to get rid of my guns if I want to homeschool my kids?

paul0660
01-17-2011, 10:26 AM
Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know,

The law says the above, so home schools aren't really a worry...........unless, I suppose, it's yours. In that case, you are still ok with the locked case for handguns (Cal and Federal) and also for long guns (Federal).

MudCamper
01-17-2011, 10:33 AM
The law says the above, so home schools aren't really a worry...........unless, I suppose, it's yours.

Not true. Theseus did not know he was in a school zone, but he was charged and convicted. The judge did not even let the jury SEE those words in the PC (knows or reasonably should know). He decided that particular part of the PC didn't matter, not in his court.

wildhawker
01-17-2011, 10:35 AM
Making a map to UOC by is not wise.

Making a map to argue by, is. I don't think you need all private schools and homeschools to be persuasive. Take a few metros (SF, Sacto, Fresno, Irvine, San Diego) and use the public school data.

OleCuss
01-17-2011, 10:51 AM
I think the mapping should start out small. At least as a pilot.

You can take a small city like Turlock and some of us can simply go to the school board and ask for maps of the schools. I'd bet we can get them.

Due to contacts within the city I'd bet we could find a fair number of the private schools as well. Then map those GFSZ's out and you'd be able to show that in a city like this you simply can't UOC in any practical manner.

I'm perfectly fine with it not being Turlock - but the point is that at least starting small lets you work out the bugs a a little more easily than if you start out with a large city or a whole county.

timdps
01-17-2011, 11:04 AM
This SF map shows not only that more than 50% of the city is covered by school zones, but also that it is almost impossible to traverse the city (San Mateo county to either of the bridges and vice versa) without going through a school zone. Certainly could not be done using the main thoroughfares.

tim


It has to be because SF gives recommendations of where to open MCD's. This city is crazy. I hope someone puts good use to the hard work someone spent on it.


http://www.sf-planning.org/ftp/files/publications_reports/library_of_cartography/MCD_Maps.pdf

obeygiant
01-17-2011, 11:08 AM
I have taken a total of two classes on GIS, and do NOT have a ton of experience. I figured collecting the data from counties and such would be a fair bit of work, but I figured that accurate data already existed. Apparently I was wrong though. I didn't mean to trivialize the difficulty of the endeavor.

Maybe I'll collect data myself, on foot, for Livermore, at least, and send it to Obeygiant.

Like I posted above, I figured it would be easy, but people such as Obeygiant showed me that I was incorrect.

Also, do homeschooling homes count as schools for the purpose of GFSZ? Does that mean I have to get rid of my guns if I want to homeschool my kids?

DC,

My posts were not intended to create any ill will but rather to show that a considerable amount of time, i.e. 6+ months has been invested already and these were the lessons that we learned. I appreciate and welcome the enthusiasm as this is a very serious issue for gun owners in CA. When CGF determines that it is prudent to take up the project again, we will need as much help as we can get.

goober
01-17-2011, 11:42 AM
Making a map to UOC by is not wise.

Making a map to argue by, is. I don't think you need all private schools and homeschools to be persuasive. Take a few metros (SF, Sacto, Fresno, Irvine, San Diego) and use the public school data.

wildhawker is right.

I think the mapping should start out small. At least as a pilot.

You can take a small city like Turlock and some of us can simply go to the school board and ask for maps of the schools. I'd bet we can get them.

Due to contacts within the city I'd bet we could find a fair number of the private schools as well. Then map those GFSZ's out and you'd be able to show that in a city like this you simply can't UOC in any practical manner.

I'm perfectly fine with it not being Turlock - but the point is that at least starting small lets you work out the bugs a a little more easily than if you start out with a large city or a whole county.

OleCuss, great idea, but see below.

DC,

My posts were not intended to create any ill will but rather to show that a considerable amount of time, i.e. 6+ months has been invested already and these were the lessons that we learned. I appreciate and welcome the enthusiasm as this is a very serious issue for gun owners in CA. When CGF determines that it is prudent to take up the project again, we will need as much help as we can get.

Obeygiant speaks from experience. As he and I mentioned, a great deal of effort has already been put into this idea. The project has been tabled temporarily due to a variety of concerns. It will be picked up again soon and when it is, we WILL need motivated & enthusiastic CGN'ers for the crowdsourcing portion, which will be vetting the school db we built for each county using all available data. This is where folks like OleCuss, Deadly Claymore, and others will come in. GIS experience will be a big plus, but won't be required for most of the work. When the time comes we'll announce the project officially, and request volunteers to help w/ the groundtruthing. Which isn't to say that no one is allowed to do whatever they want in the meantime, just that individual efforts made at this time will likely become redundant/superseded by the results of the statewide project already underway.
That's all I can say at this point. It's a work in progress.

jpigeon
01-17-2011, 12:53 PM
Wowsers!!! So the police would have to do their homework just to violate some 1. Thanks for all the input fellas. Happy MLK day:)

wash
01-17-2011, 1:09 PM
The GFSZ law states that you are breaking it if you should reasonably know you are within 1000' of school grounds. If an accurate GFSZ map is made, I'm sure the courts will rule that "you should have reasonably known", but what's an accurate map?

This is like teaching fire safety in a third grade class and then handing out matches.

UOC is not helping our cause, it should not be encouraged and a map like this would seem like an endorsement of that activity, accurate or not.

If you need to carry because you are in danger, I suggest applying for a CCW permit, LUCC or illegal CCW (with a registered handgun). Until we have secured some right to carry in CA, we don't need UOC drama.

The damage control required for an illegal CCW misdermeanor is a lot less than a UOC GFSZ violation.

N6ATF
01-17-2011, 1:26 PM
The damage control required for an illegal CCW misdermeanor is a lot less than a UOC GFSZ violation.

Unless you add illegal CCW to illegal GFSZ carry.

wildhawker
01-17-2011, 1:29 PM
jpigeon,

No, that's not true. *You* have to do lots of work to avoid breaking the law and arrest. *They* can arrest you for violating it and let the DA sort out the details at your expense.

Coded-Dude
01-17-2011, 1:34 PM
UOC is not helping our cause...

snip

Many people are UOC'ing because its their only choice for carry/protection...its generally not because they are trying to make a statement or further any cause. what you are recommending in the interim is to break the law until your cause grants them a better form of carry that doesn't hurt your cause. very dangerous.

MasterYong
01-17-2011, 1:37 PM
Since it's a federal law, most cops don't even know about it, and unless it's tied to some other violation, the Feds aren't going to waste their time to prosecute it. It's another feel-good law. I don't know of anyone that has been arrested or prosecuted for violating it. Nonetheless, I don't condone going out of your way to violate it either.

ROFL tell that to Theseus.

Also, uh, isn't there supposed to be some part of the law that states you have to knowingly be in violation?

Librarian
01-17-2011, 1:45 PM
ROFL tell that to Theseus.

Also, uh, isn't there supposed to be some part of the law that states you have to knowingly be in violation?

Sure: 626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as
the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the
person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone,
Seems like 'reasonable people' are not the ones who get to decide whether one 'reasonably should know'.

wash
01-17-2011, 1:45 PM
No, I said apply for a CCW license or LUCC or illegal CCW.

The first two are 100% legal.

Illegal CCW should be a last resort, UOC should be avoided 99.95% of the time.

There is a lot less damage control from an illegal CCW charge. A person who gets arrested for illegal CCW will most likely not make the evening news. If it doesn't make the news or scare a soccer mom, the politicians could care less.

N6ATF
01-17-2011, 3:33 PM
There is a lot less damage control from an illegal CCW charge. A person who gets arrested for illegal CCW will most likely not make the evening news. If it doesn't make the news or scare a soccer mom, the politicians could care less.

Bullcrap. They will summon all the news media to film the perp walk, and have a press conference with satellite uplink and .50AE Desert Eagle on display, showing how evil we civil gun owners are, going into school zones to kill children with one shot kill guns. :mad:

wash
01-17-2011, 3:52 PM
Not really, gang bangers get caught with guns all the time. How often do they make the news if they didn't get busted for something worse?

Also, how often do gang bangers get busted for illegal CCW?

A person who is not a gang banger has a high probability of carrying and not getting busted.

UOC activists tell people where they are going to be and even allert the police. They are trying to be a media magnet.

N6ATF
01-17-2011, 5:26 PM
Not really, gang bangers get caught with guns all the time. How often do they make the news if they didn't get busted for something worse?

Gang bangers are old hat, not worth reporting. Civil gun owners are squarely in the sights of the victim disarming media and government. They will scream from the rooftops and in CA we will see even more 4A violations than are currently committed with impunity against civil gun owners.


A person who is not a gang banger has a high probability of carrying and not getting busted.

Probability doesn't matter. The "damage control" will be extreme if a civil gun owner is busted for the aforementioned reasons.

UOC activists tell people where they are going to be and even allert the police. They are trying to be a media magnet.

Nice blanket statement. Check for moth holes.

jpigeon
01-17-2011, 6:20 PM
If an otherwise law-abiding citizen gets arrested for illegall ccw do they lose their gun rights and the gun they were arrested with? And is it common for an officer to know the minefields of school zones. Most LEO's in my community "seem" open to UOC and guns, just not sure if they would go the extra mile and try to figure out how close the nearest school is... "Seem" meaning: in the press enterprise the Sheriff went on record stating he would not want the UOC ban to be passed...

wash
01-17-2011, 7:35 PM
Gang bangers are old hat, not worth reporting. Civil gun owners are squarely in the sights of the victim disarming media and government. They will scream from the rooftops and in CA we will see even more 4A violations than are currently committed with impunity against civil gun owners.
That's funny. What's the difference?

If a guy gets popped for CCW at a traffic stop it will make the online arrest record but it will look just like that banger.

The media attention attached to a CCW arrest has more to do with the setting and witnesses than the crime.

N6ATF
01-17-2011, 7:47 PM
It WON'T just make the online arrest record. It will be press released all over with the most libelous and perjurious statements possible, claiming the civil gun owner threatened to kill children, cops, old ladies... they're getting desperate to save their tyranny.

Goldseeker
01-17-2011, 8:04 PM
Wowsers!!! So the police would have to do their homework just to violate some 1.

That is an unfounded conclusion.
.

Pig Rifle
01-17-2011, 9:03 PM
No, I said apply for a CCW license or LUCC or illegal CCW.

The first two are 100% legal.

Illegal CCW should be a last resort, UOC should be avoided 99.95% of the time.

There is a lot less damage control from an illegal CCW charge. A person who gets arrested for illegal CCW will most likely not make the evening news. If it doesn't make the news or scare a soccer mom, the politicians could care less.

Please don't anyone consider illegal CCW. Bad press just doesn't quite compare to 2 years in State prison.

jpigeon
01-17-2011, 9:07 PM
That is an unfounded conclusion.
.

Well if the lines are not clearly known it seems LEO's would stray from these charges unless it were very obvious.

J.D.Allen
01-17-2011, 9:50 PM
If an otherwise law-abiding citizen gets arrested for illegall ccw do they lose their gun rights and the gun they were arrested with? And is it common for an officer to know the minefields of school zones. Most LEO's in my community "seem" open to UOC and guns, just not sure if they would go the extra mile and try to figure out how close the nearest school is... "Seem" meaning: in the press enterprise the Sheriff went on record stating he would not want the UOC ban to be passed...

Lose gun rights? That's kind of a loaded question (no pun intended). I don't think it's on the list of prohibiting misdemeanors but you can bet you would find "not own or possess any deadly or dangerous weapons" as a condition on your probation order. So then yes you would effectively lose your gun rights in CA for probably three years.

But that's only if it's charged as a misdemeanor. If you illegally CCW with a weapon that is not registered it then becomes a felony, which will get you banned for life in the entire country.

And yes, you can bet your weapon will be destroyed.

Fun little game, yes?

wash
01-18-2011, 8:34 AM
Please don't anyone consider illegal CCW. Bad press just doesn't quite compare to 2 years in State prison.
I can't in good conscience suggest that a person be unarmed when they feel they are in danger.

Of course the most rational response is to remove yourself from the danger but that's not always possible.

After that it becomes a question of balancing risk. When the risk of personal harm out weighs the risk of a misdermeanor CCW arrest, illegal CCW becomes a good choice.

Have I done it: no. Would I do it: yes.

We are talking about an activity that should be legal or permitted in a shall issue manner. It's an injustice that a lot of Californians can not legally carry because of where they live.

It's a case of breaking an unjust law and truly a victimless "crime" because self defense has no victims.

Coded-Dude
01-18-2011, 8:42 AM
It IS legal to LCC without a permit if you fear that you are in danger. The problem would be proving that said danger actually exists when/if you get caught carrying "illegally."

However, my opinion on that is that the judge and/or police would have no empathy and inform you that you should have just called the authorities....even though that is a ridiculous response because they won't offer you an escort everywhere you go.

hgreen
01-18-2011, 10:03 AM
Unless you add illegal CCW to illegal GFSZ carry.

+1

Are we encouraging breaking the law now?

J.D.Allen
01-18-2011, 10:10 AM
+1

Are we encouraging breaking the law now?

No. WE are not.

N6ATF
01-18-2011, 10:11 AM
+1

Are we encouraging breaking the law now?

Immediately, or ultimately, to have any semblance of 2A rights means leaving the state. If the gun is registered, you will be popped for a misdemeanor and prohibition for years while in CA. To escape the prohibition, you have to leave. To legally be able to defend yourself*, you have to leave.


*I don't consider the CCW (bribery) system to be legal under the supreme law of the land.

J.D.Allen
01-18-2011, 10:18 AM
It IS legal to LCC without a permit if you fear that you are in danger. The problem would be proving that said danger actually exists when/if you get caught carrying "illegally."

However, my opinion on that is that the judge and/or police would have no empathy and inform you that you should have just called the authorities....even though that is a ridiculous response because they won't offer you an escort everywhere you go.

Therein lies the major problem with the way these laws are crafted in PRK. You are only allowed to load up when in IMMEDIATE or IMMINENT reasonable fear of death or GBI. Of course, when it is IMMEDIATE, or IMMINENT, it's already too late, and you don't have time to load up. Don't you dare do it before that point though...so, in effect, we have NO right to defend ourselves with the most effective tool available.

goober
01-18-2011, 10:24 AM
+1

Are we encouraging breaking the law now?

No. WE are not.

although I can't claim any authority to speak for the community as a whole or the orgs themselves, i don't believe WE (CGN/CGF) are encouraging UOC either, with or without the aid of GFSZ maps.

jpigeon
01-18-2011, 4:49 PM
Well u know what guys, I'll have to end it with this. Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Pig Rifle
01-18-2011, 5:01 PM
I can't in good conscience suggest that a person be unarmed when they feel they are in danger.

Of course the most rational response is to remove yourself from the danger but that's not always possible.

After that it becomes a question of balancing risk. When the risk of personal harm out weighs the risk of a misdermeanor CCW arrest, illegal CCW becomes a good choice.

Have I done it: no. Would I do it: yes.

We are talking about an activity that should be legal or permitted in a shall issue manner. It's an injustice that a lot of Californians can not legally carry because of where they live.

It's a case of breaking an unjust law and truly a victimless "crime" because self defense has no victims.

I fully agree on most of your points. And also would point out that if your life is in danger, it would actually be legal. (at least by the letter of the law as I understand it...) However, if prosecuted for ILLEGAL CCW, I seriously doubt it would be done so as a misdemeanor. Not to mention if it happened to be in a GFSZ, as only permitted CCW is exempt from these.

pointedstick
01-19-2011, 11:18 AM
Surprised nobody has posted this yet…

http://www.0xdecafbad.com/gfsz/#

hgreen
01-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Surprised nobody has posted this yet…

http://www.0xdecafbad.com/gfsz/#

We've got a much better (does not take a year to load, standard format file for other applications) and more accurate system (takes into account property boundaries, not just central point).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=385904

vanmanstemig
01-24-2011, 7:19 PM
i was also wondering if a bus yard and district offices, on separate property from school counts as gun free zone? just thought about it and I'm within it if it does count.