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cyrus
01-15-2011, 10:00 PM
I bought a very cool Swiss STG 57 bayonet today. It has a cool scabbard so you can wear it on your belt.

Question: will this put me jail. It is a 9" double sided blade? Thanks

locosway
01-15-2011, 10:04 PM
As long as it's not concealed you're good to go. The law says that fixed blade knives must be exposed on a belt.

City and county ordnances may come into play here, so you should check those as well. However if you're out on BLM land or w/e then just keep it all exposed.

Librarian
01-15-2011, 10:09 PM
And 'double edged' is no problem.

Saintwicked
01-15-2011, 10:11 PM
Double edged is illegal in CA.

locosway
01-15-2011, 10:30 PM
Double edged is illegal in CA.

Show me the law that says this.

the_quark
01-15-2011, 10:34 PM
The one thing I've always appreciated about this forum is the clarity I get about legal issues after reading it.

locosway
01-15-2011, 10:35 PM
The one thing I've always appreciate about this forum is the clarity I get about legal issues after reading it.

I have to agree. I had a lot of misinformation in my head before coming here. Most people just hear someone say "XXX" is illegal and that sits in the back of their minds. It's nice coming here and getting PC's quoted and discussions on the subject, it's really an eye opener.

the_quark
01-15-2011, 10:39 PM
I have to agree. I had a lot of misinformation in my head before coming here. Most people just hear someone say "XXX" is illegal and that sits in the back of their minds. It's nice coming here and getting PC's quoted and discussions on the subject, it's really an eye opener.

My original comment was an attempt to be funny, given the quick "legal/isn't/is" exchange above me. Made even less funny by my explaining it, now!

However, in all seriousness, I do agree with you that I like the intellectual rigor that is required here - it's like being a scientist. Unsubstantiated claims are treated with derision.

locosway
01-15-2011, 10:40 PM
My original comment was an attempt to be funny, given the quick "legal/isn't/is" exchange above me. Made even less funny by my explaining it, now!

However, in all seriousness, I do agree with you that I like the intellectual rigor that is required here - it's like being a scientist. Unsubstantiated claims are treated with derision.

Yeah, I kinda got that from what you were saying, but I've seen too much good come from these forums.

Librarian
01-15-2011, 11:13 PM
Double edged is illegal in CA.

Absolutely no PC or caselaw to support that. See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2289918&postcount=6

locosway
01-15-2011, 11:14 PM
Absolutely no PC or caselaw to support that. See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2289918&postcount=6

You make it too easy on people, I wanted him to go look it up himself.

the_quark
01-15-2011, 11:16 PM
Humor aside, the knife laws are just ridiculous.

If you have a 12050 license, you can carry a loaded handgun, concealed, but not a 2" fixed-blade knife in your backpack?

Kid Stanislaus
01-15-2011, 11:53 PM
It rings a bell with me that a double edged knife is a "daggar" in CA and that its illegal to possess one but IANAL.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 12:00 AM
It rings a bell with me that a double edged knife is a "daggar" in CA and that its illegal to possess one but IANAL.

I think your confusion is that it's illegal to conceal a dagger, regardless of whether it's single or double-bladed.

ke6guj
01-16-2011, 12:08 AM
It rings a bell with me that a double edged knife is a "daggar" in CA and that its illegal to possess one but IANAL.

good thing YANAL. There is a law that prohibits the CONCEALED CARRY of a dirk or dagger, but otherwise, there are no laws that prohibit the non-concealed possession of a dagger.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 12:12 AM
good thing YANAL.

Good thing he's not a copyeditor, either. ;)

Librarian
01-16-2011, 12:13 AM
It rings a bell with me that a double edged knife is a "daggar" in CA and that its illegal to possess one but IANAL.

good thing YANAL. There is a law that prohibits the CONCEALED CARRY of a dirk or dagger, but otherwise, there are no laws that prohibit the non-concealed possession of a dagger.

And nothing says 'double-edged' == dagger. PC says a dirk or dagger means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. Lots of things can be used that way with that kind of effect - for an example, an ice pick - which has no edge at all.

ke6guj
01-16-2011, 12:15 AM
And nothing says 'double-edged' == dagger. PC says a dirk or dagger Lots of things can be used that way with that kind of effect - for an example, an ice pick - which has no edge at all.yup. IIRC, even a screwdriver concealed in a pocket can trigger a "concealed dirk or dagger" charge.

1JimMarch
01-16-2011, 1:52 AM
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html

Turo
01-16-2011, 2:22 AM
As your question has been answered OP, I'll give this little piece of advice. When you may have committed a crime but you're not sure it's legal or not, the absolute worst thing you can possibly do is to go on a public forum and put into writing, "I did this crime, Is it really a crime?"

I realize that what you did wan't a crime, but you didn't know that when you made the thread. It could have just as easily been along the lines of, "I just bought a cane gun from this guy in an alley for forty bucks, did I just commit a crime?"

Just a tip.

locosway
01-16-2011, 2:26 AM
As your question has been answered OP, I'll give this little piece of advice. When you may have committed a crime but you're not sure it's legal or not, the absolute worst thing you can possibly do is to go on a public forum and put into writing, "I did this crime, Is it really a crime?"

I realize that what you did wan't a crime, but you didn't know that when you made the thread. It could have just as easily been along the lines of, "I just bought a cane gun from this guy in an alley for forty bucks, did I just commit a crime?"

Just a tip.

I think his question was about wearing it, not possession.

Turo
01-16-2011, 2:41 AM
I think his question was about wearing it, not possession.

I guess it could be read either way. I read it as "I bought this, will it get me in trouble" but the part about the scabbard hinted at wearing it.

Ford8N
01-16-2011, 5:45 AM
If the cop wants to bust you, they will find something, eventually. Just about everything in this state is against the law. Get a copy of West's California Criminal and Motor Vehicle Law and start reading.

glockman19
01-16-2011, 8:04 AM
Absolutely no PC or caselaw to support that. See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2289918&postcount=6

Double edged knives are considered dirks or daggers and are illegal.

And...

If you EVER hold your knife, any knife, while you are yelling at ANYONE, you could be charged with Brandishing a weapon. All you have to do is be rude, angry or threatening...and you are guilty of a misdemenor.

locosway
01-16-2011, 8:09 AM
Double edged knives are considered dirks or daggers and are illegal.

Can you please show the PC that substantiates this claim?

wellerjohn
01-16-2011, 9:13 AM
Double edged knives are considered dirks or daggers and are illegal.

And...

If you EVER hold your knife, any knife, while you are yelling at ANYONE, you could be charged with Brandishing a weapon. All you have to do is be rude, angry or threatening...and you are guilty of a misdemenor.

Anything sharp or pointy object can become a dirk/ dagger. By having your double edged knife in a sheath it's not a dirk or dagger, but take it out of the sheath then it is considered one....... I would assume if used in a threatning manner.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 9:14 AM
Double edged knives are considered dirks or daggers and are illegal.


Alright, I'm flabbergasted. Please read the earlier part of this thread in which someone said the exact same thing and was shown to be wrong. You're wrong. They're not.

jonyg
01-16-2011, 10:12 AM
Here you go. This one has all the CA knife laws. It breaks down the legislation and the exact types you can have as well as scenarios.

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html

And yes it quotes the actual legislation etc.

On the previous notes, this is the only gun forum (or forum in general) where the law and sources are cited so frequently. And for the most part people seem....educated! Educated internet forum...its like an oxymoron.

targetarcher
01-16-2011, 10:40 AM
Also doesn't have too be exposed on your belt, though it gives that as an example. You could, say, strap the sheath to the side of your backpack and be fine.

Decoligny
01-16-2011, 10:55 AM
OK
A dirk or dagger by the CA penal code definition is pretty much anything that can be readily used to stab someone.

Possession of a dirk or dagger IS NOT illegal.

Concealing a dirk or dagger IS illegal.

There is no mention in CA penal code referencing "double edged" knives being illegal.

An open folder is a dirk or dagger until it is closed. If you put it in your pocket open, it is a crime.

A fixed blade knife is ALWAYS a dirk or dagger whether it is in a sheath/scabbard or not.

motorhead
01-16-2011, 11:19 AM
the prob is the common definition of a dagger vs the legal definition. i sometimes carry a gerber MKI, unconcealed, it aint a dagger.

Decoligny
01-16-2011, 11:52 AM
the prob is the common definition of a dagger vs the legal definition. i sometimes carry a gerber MKI, unconcealed, it aint a dagger.

Yes it is a dagger. It just isn't illegal unless you carry it concealed.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
01-16-2011, 2:32 PM
yup. IIRC, even a screwdriver concealed in a pocket can trigger a "concealed dirk or dagger" charge.

However, it depends a bit on intent if you conceal something other than a knife, correct? There are some pens that are readily available for use as a stabbing instrument to cause great bodily harm and therefore would technically be a dirk or dagger, but I don't know if you would be convicted unless you used it to hurt somebody.

Also, since the code says knife, that means you cannot carry a knife even if it cannot be used as a stabbing weapon, yeah?

ke6guj
01-16-2011, 2:40 PM
right, intent matters.

As I've mentioned before, if you get detained with a screwdriver in your pocket, but also have set of lineman pliers and a light-switch, it coudl be reasonably construed that you are carrying that screwdriver with the intent of using it as a tool, not as a dirk or dagger. But carry that same screwdrive in your pocket while living the thug life on the corner, and it could be looked at as being a concealed dirk or dagger.


if it could be considered a dirk or dagger, don't carry that knife concealed.

GettoPhilosopher
01-16-2011, 2:51 PM
Alright, I'm flabbergasted. Please read the earlier part of this thread in which someone said the exact same thing and was shown to be wrong. You're wrong. They're not.

I appreciate that, but FYI this is what people like the LASD are passing around. Double-edged = dagger. I've been told that on many occasions.


OK
A dirk or dagger by the CA penal code definition is pretty much anything that can be readily used to stab someone.
[...]
Concealing a dirk or dagger IS illegal.
[...]
A fixed blade knife is ALWAYS a dirk or dagger whether it is in a sheath/scabbard or not.

Interestingly enough though, those same LASD officers that have on multiple occasions told me double-edged=dagger have also said that there is no problem with a concealed 4" fixed blade knife in a sheath...because it's under 4". (This was a 4" boot knife I wanted to wear in my boot, under my pants)

So yeah....bit confused they are.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 3:45 PM
I appreciate that, but FYI this is what people like the LASD are passing around. Double-edged = dagger. I've been told that on many occasions.


That may be the definition that they use (there's nothing solid in the law). I was taking issue with saying "Double edged knives are considered dirks or daggers and are illegal.". Double-edged knives are considered dirks or daggers (as are single-edged knives and basically anything from a pointed stick on up). But they're not "illegal", they're illegal to carry concealed, which is a lot different.

sandman21
01-16-2011, 3:53 PM
In LA it is illegal to carry a knife greater 3" in plain view 13.62.020 (http://search.municode.com/html/16274/_DATA/TITLE13/Chapter_13_62_CARRYING_KNIVES_.html), knives laws are not preempted.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 4:07 PM
In LA it is illegal to carry a knife greater 3" in plain view 13.62.020 (http://search.municode.com/html/16274/_DATA/TITLE13/Chapter_13_62_CARRYING_KNIVES_.html), knives laws are not preempted.

Yes, sorry, was focused on state-wide and it didn't click that "LASD" now means we're definitionally talking about LA. I'm unfamiliar with LA's laws.

sandman21
01-16-2011, 4:14 PM
No worries. I needed to look up knifes laws, I carry a folder but wanted to make sure I was legal. Riverside, Oceanside, Berkeley have their own laws about carrying, anyone carrying should check local laws.

GettoPhilosopher
01-16-2011, 5:05 PM
In LA it is illegal to carry a knife greater 3" in plain view 13.62.020 (http://search.municode.com/html/16274/_DATA/TITLE13/Chapter_13_62_CARRYING_KNIVES_.html), knives laws are not preempted.

Greatest LE quote ever:

LASD Deputy talking with me about knife laws:" Now, there is a county ordinance banning sheath knives, but it's basically there to stop gangbangers from carrying K-Bars, y'know? Someone like *points* you (I'm 5'11", 200lbs, white, and in college at the time, being very polite) would never get stopped for that. Nah, no one'd ever give you grief for that, so go ahead. Besides, it's just an ordinance."

M198
01-16-2011, 5:43 PM
Greatest LE quote ever:

Someone like *points* you (I'm 5'11", 200lbs, white, and in college at the time, being very polite) would never get stopped for that. Nah, no one'd ever give you grief for that, so go ahead. Besides, it's just an ordinance."

Want to bet your life on it? Because you basically are. Never leave an ounce of judgement or wiggle room for the police or prosecutor. Google the name Brian Aitken for a perfect example of why.

GettoPhilosopher
01-16-2011, 6:10 PM
Want to bet your life on it? Because you basically are. Never leave an ounce of judgement or wiggle room for the police or prosecutor. Google the name Brian Aitken for a perfect example of why.

...Well, obviously. I was just pointing out how hilarious and screwed up it was for me to listen to a uniformed, on duty LASD deputy tell me essentially that the knife laws don't apply to "white boys" like me.

Do you really think I'd stake my freedom, my future career aspirations, my family, and my life on "but dude, some deputy told me..."??? :P

Cokebottle
01-16-2011, 6:30 PM
Humor aside, the knife laws are just ridiculous.

If you have a 12050 license, you can carry a loaded handgun, concealed, but not a 2" fixed-blade knife in your backpack?
Even if you don't have the 12050 license, the loaded handgun concealed is two misdemeanors, the knife is a felony.

Cokebottle
01-16-2011, 6:32 PM
I bought a very cool Swiss STG 57 bayonet today. It has a cool scabbard so you can wear it on your belt.

Question: will this put me jail. It is a 9" double sided blade? Thanks
Check your local city and county ordinances.

There is no state law that prohibits carrying such a knife in a sheath on your belt, but it would be illegal in Los Angeles County and some other areas due to it's length.

cyrus
01-16-2011, 7:27 PM
Turo,

I appreciate the advice (good advice at that) but I did write a careful question. I think a bayonet is legal, but I wanted to know if their was any issues with carry. I have never heard of bayonet bans so I figured I was good to go.

Cyrus

As your question has been answered OP, I'll give this little piece of advice. When you may have committed a crime but you're not sure it's legal or not, the absolute worst thing you can possibly do is to go on a public forum and put into writing, "I did this crime, Is it really a crime?"

I realize that what you did wan't a crime, but you didn't know that when you made the thread. It could have just as easily been along the lines of, "I just bought a cane gun from this guy in an alley for forty bucks, did I just commit a crime?"

Just a tip.

sytfu_RR
01-17-2011, 9:37 AM
So if I understand this.... carrying a knife like this:
( 5.11 Boot/Neck Knife )
http://www.511tactical.com/browse/Home/All-Products/Accessories/Tactical-Knives/Side-Kick-Boot-Knife/D/30100/P/1:100:50000:50800:50804/I/51023

Is illegal?

motorhead
01-17-2011, 10:10 AM
not worn o/s your clothing.

xcop
01-17-2011, 10:20 AM
Here is how 12020pc for dirk or dagger was filed in my time. The knife MUST be double edged AND concealed on the person. The knife double edged in a sheath on the belt was always a DA reject. Didnt matter if it was a gangbanger or not. Also I have seen a case rejected where a double edged dagger concealed in a closed fist was determined not to qualify as concealed. The case law I dont remember. Now as to know case law look up LA County filings for 12020pc and you will see that a lot of people were convicted of that section with concealed double edged knives. All were small and usually push dagger types.

sytfu_RR
01-17-2011, 12:42 PM
not worn o/s your clothing.

So it's okay to have it concealed? And has to be on the belt? Sorry for all the questions. Knife laws are another part of the CA headache. Even after reading that website.

Cokebottle
01-17-2011, 12:50 PM
So it's okay to have it concealed? And has to be on the belt? Sorry for all the questions. Knife laws are another part of the CA headache. Even after reading that website.
No no no.

NO fixed blade knife of any kind may be concealed.
This includes a folding knife with the blade open.

The law gives "worn openly on the belt" as an example of how a knife may be worn openly, but that is not the only way it may be worn legally.

A fixed blade "boot knife" would be illegal.
A fixed blade neck knife would only be legal if worn outside of the shirt/jacket.

A folding knife may be concealed, so long as the blade remains closed.

sytfu_RR
01-17-2011, 12:58 PM
ah okay so then would the boot knife be legal if it was exposed? thanks again for the clarification.

Cokebottle
01-17-2011, 1:22 PM
ah okay so then would the boot knife be legal if it was exposed? thanks again for the clarification.
Yes, but personally, I'd just go with a folder.
That not only avoids any concealment laws, but it also avoids local ordinances restricting length.

Librarian
01-17-2011, 1:24 PM
ah okay so then would the boot knife be legal if it was exposed? thanks again for the clarification.

Exposed enough so that anyone looking would be able to say "See, he has a boot knife", then yes.

sytfu_RR
01-17-2011, 1:47 PM
Thanks for the clarification.