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HighValleyRanch
01-15-2011, 1:56 PM
found this eagle soft protective case that fits my glocks perfectly, and it has a zipper with hole that you can lock through a ring to secure it as locked.
It is not the wire mesh type secure soft gun case, and probably could be cut with a serrated knife with some effort.

Will this still qualify as a locked box for securing my weapon?
And as I understand the law, if it was, I can secure my loaded magazines in with the firearm, as long as they are not inserted?

I did try a search, but could not find the answer.
Thanks

00BuckShot
01-15-2011, 1:59 PM
"Locked Container" has no definition, other than lockable with key or combination

CSACANNONEER
01-15-2011, 2:01 PM
Securing your weapon where? While transporting it, you're fine. While it is in your home, there is no legal requirement to keep it locked at all. That said, I'd suggest a safe instead of a locked container anyway.

jtmkinsd
01-15-2011, 2:18 PM
Soft cases with a lock through the zipper handle is fine for transporting a handgun.

GrizzlyGuy
01-15-2011, 2:31 PM
Yup, good to go. I just got back from transporting my wife's Glock to and from the national forest in a case just like the one you describe, with my $3/3-digit combo lock (http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-646T-Set-Your-Own-Combination/dp/B00004Y8DQ) through the zipper and ring.

HighValleyRanch
01-15-2011, 2:33 PM
Sorry, forgot to define my intent.

Yes, while carrying in vehicle, or carrying backpack in backcountry.

the_quark
01-15-2011, 2:51 PM
As you've described it, it should meet the definition of locked container. The trick, probably (since it's legally undefined) is that it's not so soft and formless that you could shoot while the pistol was still in it.

Also note there are a bunch of places that you're "supposed" to be carrying it for to be legal (e.g., on the way to work, or home, or the range, etc.). Proving that you were going somewhere else is difficult, and I've never heard of anyone ever being arrested (much less prosecuted) for not meeting one of the exemptions.

CSACANNONEER
01-15-2011, 4:26 PM
As you've described it, it should meet the definition of locked container. The trick, probably (since it's legally undefined) is that it's not so soft and formless that you could shoot while the pistol was still in it.

Also note there are a bunch of places that you're "supposed" to be carrying it for to be legal (e.g., on the way to work, or home, or the range, etc.). Proving that you were going somewhere else is difficult, and I've never heard of anyone ever being arrested (much less prosecuted) for not meeting one of the exemptions.

Show me the law. Except for the Federal law regarding school zones and Ca AW laws which only apply to CA RAWs, there is no legal requirement to transport a handgun in a locked container. It is perfectly legal to openly transport it on you dashboard or front seat. However, if it is concealed in a containe, it needs to be locked.

the_quark
01-15-2011, 4:45 PM
Show me the law. Except for the Federal law regarding school zones and Ca AW laws which only apply to CA RAWs, there is no legal requirement to transport a handgun in a locked container. It is perfectly legal to openly transport it on you dashboard or front seat. However, if it is concealed in a containe, it needs to be locked.

You want to be looking at California Penal Code 12025, which makes carrying concealed upon the person illegal.

Then, check out 12026.2, which provides a bunch of exceptions to 12025, like:


(a)(5)The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.



(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.


Like I said, though, proving where you were going beyond a reasonable doubt (and that it doesn't meet one of those exceptions) is difficult, and I've never heard of anyone being arrested under these grounds. It also applies blanket if the firearm is in a vehicle (PC 12026.1).

Also, just to be clear, when I said:


Also note there are a bunch of places that you're "supposed" to be carrying it for to be legal.


I meant in the context of "in a locked container", which I thought was obvious given the question asked. Yes, there's no restrictions beyond GFSZ stuff on where you can openly carry.

CSACANNONEER
01-15-2011, 4:58 PM
You want to be looking at California Penal Code 12025, which makes carrying concealed upon the person illegal.

Then, check out 12026.2, which provides a bunch of exceptions to 12025, like:





Like I said, though, proving where you were going beyond a reasonable doubt (and that it doesn't meet one of those exceptions) is difficult, and I've never heard of anyone being arrested under these grounds. It also applies blanket if the firearm is in a vehicle (PC 12026.1).
Also, just to be clear, when I said:



I meant in the context of "in a locked container", which I thought was obvious given the question asked. Yes, there's no restrictions beyond GFSZ stuff on where you can openly carry.

First, you appear to be correct yet, I believe that it is perfectly legal to UOC in a vehicle.

Second, yea, I was just clarifying your statement so that someone didn't qoute you out of context and then spread FUD.

Again, while the GFSZ is the only place that one has to use a locked container, one MUST ALWAYS use a locked container while transporting RAWs in Ca.

the_quark
01-15-2011, 5:03 PM
First, you appear to be correct yet, I believe that it is perfectly legal to UOC in a vehicle.


Again, not trying to be exclusive. Everything I've said here is in the context of "carrying in a locked container" (which definitionally isn't UOC). Carrying UOC in a vehicle isn't carrying concealed, or loaded, but is a problem if you drive through a school zone.

jtmkinsd
01-15-2011, 5:18 PM
The best statement is from the Wiki:

OPEN handgun transport
Open merely means 'not concealed'. In a holster on one's belt, carefully kept away from outer garments or shirts which may cover the handgun, is 'open carry'. On the passenger seat next to a driver in a car, clearly visible, is 'open transport'.

While legal, open transport is uncommon. Because this is uncommon, when transporting openly any interaction with law enforcement personnel could be uncomfortable.

And this incorrect, but "safer" advice from the CHP FAQ:

If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

Carrying openly in a car carries with it the same dangers as open carry on your person in public. So I always advise to err on the side of caution when transporting...unless you are in the mood to spend a good deal of time, effort, and possibly money to exercise your rights.

HighValleyRanch
01-15-2011, 7:50 PM
The last few comments are confusing.
Do they infer that you have to have specific reasons for carrying the gun in a locked unloaded condition while in your vehicle,
i.e going back and forth to your place or business, to the gun repair shop?

You can carry a locked unloaded gun while going camping, because a campsite is considered a temporary residence, and you can carry to the range, which might mean anywheres in rural areas, or you might be transporting through a city to get to your final destination which again is your temporary residence.
Or you might be carrying the gun to stay at a relatives to go shooting at the range the next day...or there are a host of other reasons to carry a locked unloaded firearm in the vehicle.
Are you required by law to state your intentions?
Can you refuse to state these if asked?

the_quark
01-15-2011, 7:57 PM
Are you required by law to state your intentions?
Can you refuse to state these if asked?

You always have a fifth amendment right to refuse to answer any questions that might incriminate you.

jtmkinsd
01-15-2011, 8:22 PM
The last few comments are confusing.
Do they infer that you have to have specific reasons for carrying the gun in a locked unloaded condition while in your vehicle,
i.e going back and forth to your place or business, to the gun repair shop?

You can carry a locked unloaded gun while going camping, because a campsite is considered a temporary residence, and you can carry to the range, which might mean anywheres in rural areas, or you might be transporting through a city to get to your final destination which again is your temporary residence.
Or you might be carrying the gun to stay at a relatives to go shooting at the range the next day...or there are a host of other reasons to carry a locked unloaded firearm in the vehicle.
Are you required by law to state your intentions?
Can you refuse to state these if asked?

There are conditions for carrying a concealed handgun (locked in a box is "concealed") in a vehicle and they are outlined in the PC.

12026.2(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision
(a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall
be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision
(d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations
between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

What the term "reasonably necessary" means is open to much interpretation...but that doesn't mean you should travel around with your handgun in your trunk for the heck of it. You may transport your handgun for any lawful purpose...basically any reason you want as long as it's not illegal activity. As for offering up "reasons" for having your firearm...the 5th Amendment is your friend.

hoffmang
01-15-2011, 8:30 PM
What the term "reasonably necessary" means is open to much interpretation...but that doesn't mean you should travel around with your handgun in your trunk for the heck of it. As for offering up "reasons" for having your firearm...the 5th Amendment is your friend.

Only if you aren't a citizen or are under 18 do you need 12026.2.

If you're a citizen the exemption in 12026.1 works quite nicely:

(a)Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:

(1)The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.

(2)The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

(b)The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.


-Gene

the_quark
01-15-2011, 8:34 PM
There are conditions for carrying a concealed handgun (locked in a box is "concealed") in a vehicle and they are outlined in the PC.

Actually what you're talking about is general law on carrying locked and concealed. "In a vehicle" is covered explicitly in 12026.1:


(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.


Since UOC basically anywhere (obviously excluding school zones) is a "lawful purpose", you can be carrying your handgun in a locked container in order to UOC when you get to your destination.

MudCamper
01-15-2011, 8:36 PM
Also note there are a bunch of places that you're "supposed" to be carrying it for to be legal (e.g., on the way to work, or home, or the range, etc.). Proving that you were going somewhere else is difficult, and I've never heard of anyone ever being arrested (much less prosecuted) for not meeting one of the exemptions.

That's actually a common misconception, at least with regard to driving. Let me quote myself from the flyer (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf).

The second common mistake is confusing or combining 12026.1 and 12026.2. 12026.1 simply states that 12025 does not apply
when transporting a handgun in a motor vehicle’s trunk, or in a locked container in or to/from a motor vehicle. There are no
location or deviation restrictions in 12026.1. 12026.2 is another (separate) list of exemptions to 12025, all but one of which
(motion picture) are transporting exemptions. Unlike 12026.1, 12026.2 is not specific to motor vehicles. It can therefore be
applied to all other forms of transportation, e.g., walking, bicycling, public transportation. Unlike 12026.1, 12026.2 does limit the
transport exemptions from any unnecessary deviations.

You only need find one exception to 12025, either 12026.1, or 12026.2 (or of course 12026 or 12027 but I digress).

MudCamper
01-15-2011, 8:37 PM
Jeez you guys are fast with the posts. Beat me to it!

the_quark
01-15-2011, 8:39 PM
That's actually a common misconception, at least with regard to driving. Let me quote myself from the flyer (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf).


As my post immediately above yours shows (we collided), I get the distinction, but I appreciate the clarification.

I walk places, a lot, so I tend to think of the law in terms of "what you can do while walking".

the_quark
01-15-2011, 8:41 PM
Only if you aren't a citizen or are under 18 do you need 12026.2.


Or, if you didn't use a motor vehicle to get where you're going.

MudCamper
01-15-2011, 8:44 PM
Or, if you didn't use a motor vehicle to get where you're going.

Or like you said earlier, just exercise your 5th.

hoffmang
01-15-2011, 8:46 PM
Or, if you didn't use a motor vehicle to get where you're going.

Was replying to his "in the car" post above. Amused that we posted at about the exact same time.

-Gene

the_quark
01-15-2011, 8:48 PM
I think we just had a three-vehicle collision, there.

Librarian
01-15-2011, 9:51 PM
I'm gonna need to see licenses, registration, proof of insurance and GED or equivalent from all three of youse guys...

hoffmang
01-15-2011, 11:33 PM
I'm gonna need to see licenses, registration, proof of insurance and GED or equivalent from all three of youse guys...

Can I just had you my 26150 license instead?

-Gene

Librarian
01-15-2011, 11:35 PM
Can I just had you my 26150 license instead?

-Gene

Yes, but we don't have the same physical description and my handguns don't have the same serial numbers - it won't be very useful to me. :(

the_quark
01-15-2011, 11:36 PM
Yes, but we don't have the same physical description and my handguns don't have the same serial numbers - it won't be very useful to me. :(

They're probably not SIG SAVERS, anyway.

wildhawker
01-15-2011, 11:41 PM
They're probably not SIG SAVERS, anyway.

:rofl2:

tozan
01-15-2011, 11:59 PM
OK after reading all this I am still unsure of one thing my head is spining a little... lol

Is it OK to carry a handgun or NON-RAW rifle or OLL locked up unloaded in my car just for the heck of it or to show a friend a new toy.

Or to carry it because I may need to defend my self in a rough part of town?

Or do I have to have a reason such as going shooting or to a repair place to carry it in my car?

Librarian
01-16-2011, 12:22 AM
OK after reading all this I am still unsure of one thing my head is spining a little... lol

Is it OK to carry a handgun or NON-RAW rifle or OLL locked up unloaded in my car just for the heck of it or to show a friend a new toy.

Or to carry it because I may need to defend my self in a rough part of town?

Or do I have to have a reason such as going shooting or to a repair place to carry it in my car?

In your car, your restrictions are only onto school campuses and into some Federal property. California has no other restrictions on where you can transport unloaded guns in your vehicle.

See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=338205 - that's for CCW but the permissions, and especially the restrictions, overlap a lot.

Librarian
01-16-2011, 12:25 AM
They're probably not SIG SAVERS, anyway.

One is, but I'm more a Glock guy.

jtmkinsd
01-16-2011, 12:27 AM
Carrying a locked and unloaded weapon in your car for defense purposes is only going to end up in you having to explain to 12 people why, if you had the time to get your gun, unlock it, load it, and use it to "defend yourself", didn't you have the time to get in your car and leave? So this "reason" has it's own problems.

You can transport your firearm for any reason that isn't a crime. So yes, you can carry it locked and unloaded to go visit a friend and show him/her your new toy, you can carry locked and unloaded to "defend yourself" (although as I stated, this, IMHO, is not an ideal scenario). You can carry locked and unloaded for whatever reason you like.

the_quark
01-16-2011, 12:31 AM
One is, but I'm more a Glock guy.

I though a Sig Saver was a Glock.

hoffmang
01-16-2011, 12:32 AM
Carrying a locked and unloaded weapon in your car for defense purposes is only going to end up in you having to explain to 12 people why, if you had the time to get your gun, unlock it, load it, and use it to "defend yourself", didn't you have the time to get in your car and leave? So this "reason" has it's own problems.

That reason rarely has it's own problems. You ignore being the victim of road rage and deciding that you are in imminent danger, preparing your firearm during the driving incident, and (god forbid) having to use it when someone gets out of their car with a tire iron to come after you. In such a scenario it would be trivial to explain to 1 DA who doesn't even put you in front of 12 why you used deadly force.

-Gene

tozan
01-16-2011, 1:32 AM
Thank you for clearing that up...

hoffmang
01-16-2011, 9:47 AM
I though a Sig Saver was a Glock.

That could leave a mark.

-Gene

corporateslave
01-16-2011, 10:37 AM
And as I understand the law, if it was, I can secure my loaded magazines in with the firearm, as long as they are not inserted?

Can someone confirm for me that this is legal? I would have sworn there was something in the law about ammo being separate from the gun in the locked container, but I can't find anything about that in a few google searches.

Thanks

paul0660
01-16-2011, 10:50 AM
but I can't find anything about that in a few google searches.

because the prohibition doesn't exist.

There ARE some CHP FAQ:

I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?
California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html

corporateslave
01-16-2011, 10:59 AM
Thanks Paul!

paul0660
01-16-2011, 11:02 AM
It's what we do here, slave.

Tripper
01-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Short answer, YES it is legal
if you want a long answer I have one.
I personally would place both in same locked container and not be scared one bit.

Tripper

Librarian
01-16-2011, 11:49 AM
Can someone confirm for me that this is legal? I would have sworn there was something in the law about ammo being separate from the gun in the locked container, but I can't find anything about that in a few google searches.

Thanks

The longer answer is here: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

What anyone is trying to prevent is violating PC 12031, 'loaded in public'; for most situations, 'loaded' means 'in the gun and ready to fire'.

jtmkinsd
01-16-2011, 11:56 AM
Can someone confirm for me that this is legal? I would have sworn there was something in the law about ammo being separate from the gun in the locked container, but I can't find anything about that in a few google searches.

Thanks

This is a common myth about transporting a firearm. The only restriction concerning ammunition is the gun cannot be "loaded" as defined by PC 12031 (g):

A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

You can have as many rounds or loaded magazines you want anywhere around the gun, but not "attached" to the firearm (loaded mag inserted in the well but no round chambered is considered "loaded").

EDIT: There is an alternate definition if you intend to commit a felony or carry in the State Capitol, or offices, or in the homes of certain elected officials...but I'm assuming nobody here is concerned with that.

MudCamper
01-16-2011, 1:02 PM
Can someone confirm for me that this is legal? I would have sworn there was something in the law about ammo being separate from the gun in the locked container, but I can't find anything about that in a few google searches.

What is Loaded (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)

Yankee Clipper
01-16-2011, 4:52 PM
Because the freeways I drive pass within many GFSZ on my long drive to the range I lock my soft & hard gun cases as a matter of habit. If I'm stopped by the Highway Patrol or local LE, and the stop 'goes south', I'd rather not test the GFSZ 'feel-good' laws.

HondaMasterTech
01-16-2011, 7:31 PM
This link is to a thread that discusses the definition of a locked container in regards to a soft-case with zipper-pulls locked together. Watch the Youtube video in the first post that shows a soft-case with two zipper-pulls locked together being opened without breaking the backpack or the locks.

I personally would never carry a firearm in a soft-case like that one and I would never consider it a locked container. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=329262

jtmkinsd
01-16-2011, 9:45 PM
This link is to a thread that discusses the definition of a locked container in regards to a soft-case with zipper-pulls locked together. Watch the Youtube video in the first post that shows a soft-case with two zipper-pulls locked together being opened without breaking the backpack or the locks.

I personally would never carry a firearm in a soft-case like that one and I would never consider it a locked container. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=329262

I don't ever refer to a back pack as a "container", never have. A handgun "soft case" has never been used in the same sentence with a back pack in any discussion I've ever had. A "soft case" has, IIRC, always been a case designed to carry a firearm. It's an interesting video, and you're right not to carry a firearm in one. But the "soft cases" I've been familiar with are perfectly fine when locked through the zipper. As always, it's up to the gun owner as to what they are comfortable with. :D

hoffmang
01-16-2011, 11:51 PM
This link is to a thread that discusses the definition of a locked container in regards to a soft-case with zipper-pulls locked together. Watch the Youtube video in the first post that shows a soft-case with two zipper-pulls locked together being opened without breaking the backpack or the locks.


Many non hard sided cases (or pockets in them) are not subject to the same sorts of attacks. Additionally, the inside out bag would be an interesting piece of evidence on the stand to create a reasonable doubt.

-Gene

HighValleyRanch
01-17-2011, 12:11 PM
Since I posted the first reply, I have seen soft sided range bags that have "locked" compartments. A few had the double side zipper pull for the main center gun compartments, and some had side gun pockets with lockable zippers.
Legally, anything can be broke into, so if the intent of the law is to prevent immediate access, the fact that you can manipulate or tear, or cut the bag to access the firearm, doesn't violate the original intent.

Does it matter if someone comes through a door whether it has a flimsy lock or five locks?

HondaMasterTech
01-17-2011, 5:52 PM
Many non hard sided cases (or pockets in them) are not subject to the same sorts of attacks. Additionally, the inside out bag would be an interesting piece of evidence on the stand to create a reasonable doubt.

-Gene

Inside out bag?

elcordobes
01-18-2011, 12:21 PM
This link is to a thread that discusses the definition of a locked container in regards to a soft-case with zipper-pulls locked together. Watch the Youtube video in the first post that shows a soft-case with two zipper-pulls locked together being opened without breaking the backpack or the locks.

I personally would never carry a firearm in a soft-case like that one and I would never consider it a locked container. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=329262

Any lock can be picked and any container broken into. When you are talking about "high security" eg safeguarding classified information, locks are rated in terms of delay time (how long it would take to gain surreptitious entry). If you are just talking break it apart to get to the contents, the times are much shorter.

Since I posted the first reply, I have seen soft sided range bags that have "locked" compartments. A few had the double side zipper pull for the main center gun compartments, and some had side gun pockets with lockable zippers.
Legally, anything can be broke into, so if the intent of the law is to prevent immediate access, the fact that you can manipulate or tear, or cut the bag to access the firearm, doesn't violate the original intent.

Does it matter if someone comes through a door whether it has a flimsy lock or five locks?

+1 I think the intent of the statute is that the occupants of a vehicle would not have immediate access to the firearm. I doubt anyone would or could be prosecuted for the quality of the container as long as it had a lock on it, but then again I continually underestimate overzealous DAs.:(

HondaMasterTech
01-18-2011, 4:07 PM
I think the point is being missed. The video shows that while the two zippers-pulls are locked together, the zipper can still be pulled through them. Which, is the designed method of opening the backpack... pulling the zipper through the zipper-pulls.

To me, the container is not locked because the container can still be opened by the intended method without breaking the container or defeating the locking mechanism.

The point of the video and the thread in general was to help others avoid problems. Do what you want but don't say I didn't warn you.

Deevah
01-18-2011, 11:11 PM
south-pak.com offers some of the best hard and soft cases I have sound! I always had a problem with the security aspect of cases.