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View Full Version : OLL goes full auto...In front of Sheriff/SWAT officer!!


bu-bye
08-14-2006, 12:28 AM
Yes it's true and yes it was me:( . It all started about a few weeks ago when I took my OLL and Upper fully apart for a very detailed cleaning. Out came the JP trigger too. While putting everything back in its place I did the function test and everything went fine. I put the rifle away and went on with life. Got a call from my buddy, who is a Sheriff deputy and on the SWAT team, asking if I wanted to join him at the departments range for some shooting. Ummmmm HELL YEAH!!! So we head up there and while driving up he asks "Now, you don't have anything fully auto right?" I laugh and tell him no. So we make it there and I get my gear all setup. Now normally I only load 2 rounds in the mag after I do some trigger work but because I was at a new place and a little gitty about the real M4 and other toys next to me I forgot all about my detailed clean and the need to test the trigger. I load in a 10rd mag, look through the scope to my target 100 yards down and press on the trigger. BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM!!!!! Five rounds goes off in half a second. I have the biggest WTF face as I look to my buddy then I realize that I had worked on the trigger a few weeks back. I try and explain what had happened with me taking everything apart, the JP trigger, I should have only loaded two round,yadda yadda yadda, and his only responce was....."THAT WAS COOL!" No harm done, in fact all five bullets hit the target within 6 inches of each other. I adjust the trigger and go through 4 mags with only 2 rounds in each. All was well at this point and we had a nice day.

Lesson of the day......If you work on your trigger or any part of your gun tag the rifle with some tape so you know to test next time you are out. I'm just thankfull that I was not at a public range.

chris
08-14-2006, 1:08 AM
i think this falls into the catagory of AHHH S%^t. thank goodness they got a laugh.

bwiese
08-14-2006, 1:37 AM
You really had to screw something up to go full auto.

BATF says no-no. People've been busted for that - even accidentally.

That's one reason NOT to have an M16 bolt carrier, BTW.

BTW#2: The San Leandro full-auto/AW bust a few months ago involved some bright boys shooting in front of cops.

If you want a good trigger, get a Chip McCormick or Geissele, etc. Most folks shouldn't be touching up AR triggers - esp as they go right thru the thin surface hardening and screw it up - the real problem is that it works for 500-750 rounds and then deforms due to lack of hardening and begins doubling or worse.

kantstudien
08-14-2006, 1:48 AM
So uh... what exactly did you do to make this happen? I just want to make sure something terrible like this never happens to me...yeah, that's it! :D

anotherone
08-14-2006, 2:50 AM
That's one reason NOT to have an M16 bolt carrier, BTW.

I just recently found out that one of my uppers has an M-16 bolt in it... do I have to get rid of my bolt?

bwiese
08-14-2006, 2:57 AM
I just recently found out that one of my uppers has an M-16 bolt in it... do I have to get rid of my bolt?

M16 bolts ARE okay in ARs.
M16 fire control parts (hammer, trigger, disconnector, selector switch) are NOT.

Colt has shipped AR15s with M16 bolt carriers (though these were likely LEO-channel rifles and not "Sporters", "Match Targets", etc.
Also, the 9mm AR15s have the same 9mm combo bolt/carrier as do the 9mm M16 carbines.

The AR15 bolt carrier is designed to prevent multiple firing.

If you use an M16 bolt carrier, ensure have the rest of your house in order, don't use homebrew parts, you're assembled properly, etc. The original poster prob has some sort of disconnector problem and change the operational relationship between the fire control parts by taking off too much metal.

Stanze
08-14-2006, 7:20 AM
Good thing no one got hurt or busted, that look on your face must of been priceless/OWNED! since he asked you jokingly beforehand if you had any illegal full-auto.:eek:

Fjold
08-14-2006, 7:54 AM
If you have a rifle that you can adjust the trigger on to make it function full auto........................................What's the definition of automatic weapon?

rssslvr
08-14-2006, 7:56 AM
:eek: Man you sure are lucky the guy was one of your friends.

rkt88edmo
08-14-2006, 8:21 AM
You spent the money on a JP trigger and still had to work on it? (beyond the normal spring adjusting?)

bummer

onley11
08-14-2006, 8:37 AM
Or the overtravel adjustment was set up too tight, and the action of carefully squeezing the trigger caused the gun to bump fire like crazy. I had a Accuracy Systems Mini 14 hat I had them put a stiffer return spring in because of a similar issue. Pull the trigger firmly and hold it back, no issue. Break it gently and Full Auto baby.:mad:

PistolKidd
08-14-2006, 8:51 AM
The M16 bolt carrier MAKES ZERO DIFFERENCE in making the AR-15 go FULL AUTO if you dont have the rest of the Fire Control Group...

Im going to bet if the BCG had been replaced with an AR-15 one, you still coudlve gotten it to go Full Auto... It was all in the 'adjustment' you had done to your trigger.. I can make my Knights Trigger really light and bump like crazy, almost to the point where it seems like it's on 3 burst mode.. but I only have the AR-15 bolt carrier in it..

ATF has already publicly stated that having the M16 carrier is legal...

From a mechanical standpoint, it's not going to behave any differently unless you have the other magic parts installed.. Just check and load 1-2 rounds if you make any adjustments like that- especially to your trigger group.. Having it go FA with only 10 rounds is not that serious, but i imagine it'd be a shocking surprise if you werent ready for it.. Bet it was fun though :D

bu-bye
08-14-2006, 9:27 AM
I don't have a M-16 BC in my gun. The trigger was set so light that just the recoil from the gun caused it to bump fire. Five shots went off before I let off the trigger. JP triggers are not a drop in part. They require fitting. If you take them out you MUST readjust them even if you don't touch the adjustment screws. I did this but forgot to test the trigger under fire. I forgot this step plane and simple. I love the JP trigger but you can set it so light that it can give you problems.......or a good time, depending what side of the state line you are on:D

xrMike
08-14-2006, 9:45 AM
I don't have a M-16 BC in my gun. The trigger was set so light that just the recoil from the gun caused it to bump fire. Five shots went off before I let off the trigger. JP triggers are not a drop in part. They require fitting. If you take them out you MUST readjust them even if you don't touch the adjustment screws. I did this but forgot to test the trigger under fire. I forgot this step plane and simple. I love the JP trigger but you can set it so light that it can give you problems.......or a good time, depending what side of the state line you are on:DEverybody's going to want to shoot your AR at the next Calguns get-together... ;)

Jicko
08-14-2006, 9:51 AM
Bu:

So how did you FIX your gun? Is it an easy fix?

VeryCoolCat
08-14-2006, 9:57 AM
I don't have a M-16 BC in my gun. The trigger was set so light that just the recoil from the gun caused it to bump fire. Five shots went off before I let off the trigger. JP triggers are not a drop in part. They require fitting. If you take them out you MUST readjust them even if you don't touch the adjustment screws. I did this but forgot to test the trigger under fire. I forgot this step plane and simple. I love the JP trigger but you can set it so light that it can give you problems.......or a good time, depending what side of the state line you are on:D

Well at least your "ready" when SHTFs :D

If it had a pistol grip you coulda kept firing without reloading :D

SemiAutoSam
08-14-2006, 10:04 AM
Well at least your "ready" when SHTFs :D

If it had a pistol grip you coulda kept firing without reloading :D

Thats what the guys in the movies have.....I have often wondered as they never seem to reload.

Maybe the government should regulate the pistol grip huh ? no more killings after that happens. And to think Law Enforcement knew all this time.

bu-bye
08-14-2006, 10:15 AM
Bu:

So how did you FIX your gun? Is it an easy fix?

I just had to adjust the set screws on the trigger. The sear and hammer were set with almost no contact so any little bump caused the hammer to jump off the sear and strike the firing pin. Was not hard to fix at all. Took maybe 30 seconds tops.

JPglee1
08-14-2006, 10:29 AM
I just had to adjust the set screws on the trigger. The sear and hammer were set with almost no contact so any little bump caused the hammer to jump off the sear and strike the firing pin. Was not hard to fix at all. Took maybe 30 seconds tops.


Hey, this ain't a "how to" manual hahaha


J

Shane916
08-14-2006, 11:34 AM
Hey, this ain't a "how to" manual hahaha


J



It is now!! :D ;)

bwiese
08-14-2006, 11:41 AM
Ah, so it was a sensitive bump fire trigger and not true F/A.

PistolKidd
08-14-2006, 11:46 AM
yea.. be careful you dont get a slam fire or shoot it out of battery.. that could be catastrophic.. but that must be nice, having the trigger so light you can do that.. sounds like some serious fun, but again, be extremely careful not to get it so it can shoot out of battery..

'll stick with legal FA or bump firing depending on which state Im in :)

bu-bye
08-14-2006, 11:50 AM
Hey, this ain't a "how to" manual hahaha


J

Wait now, people you don't want to do this. If you guys try this it might not stop firing after a few rounds like mine. Auto fire is not something you want. you have no control over when it stops. Please please don't go around messing with your triggers. People have been killed because of stuff like this. This was just a warning to those who have an adjustable trigger. :(

VeryCoolCat
08-14-2006, 12:35 PM
Wait now, people you don't want to do this. If you guys try this it might not stop firing after a few rounds like mine. Auto fire is not something you want. you have no control over when it stops. Please please don't go around messing with your triggers. People have been killed because of stuff like this. This was just a warning to those who have an adjustable trigger. :(

Yea especially with a rifle without a pistol grip thats fa..... might be a little hard to control....

but if it does have the pistol grip then it won't run outa ammunition.... ohhh okay thats my last pistol grip joke.

There are plenty of "books" that teach you how to make weapons FA.... but the books are legal.... the activity they tell you is not :o

leelaw
08-14-2006, 1:17 PM
I tested my OLR Yugo AK (Review here) (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=37949) at a police range for the first time. The Red Star Arms adjustable trigger was set with a very short trigger reset.

After getting some ribbing about having a FA AK, which I completely denied, I went to fire my first shot - BANG BANG BANG! "Oh sh*t!"

The ribbing didn't die then, even after I fixed the problem. <sigh>

Mudvayne540ld
08-14-2006, 2:19 PM
=o
Sounds like you got lucky :D
Im going to Prado this Thursday (17th) to shoot with SWAT officers from my dads department. They will have M4's, and MP5's, both FA. Im excited!

Solidsnake87
08-14-2006, 2:54 PM
I've had my bushy carbon-15 give a burst of auto before. It scared the crap out of me but its never happened again. I actually caught it on film to. lol. On a side note. Since parts kits are not considered firearms are full auto trigger groups considered firearms/contraband in CA???? I know they are illegal to install but are they legal to own and purchase???? I only ask becuase I saw tons of these things on gunbroker. Furthermore my AK parts kit came with the auto trigger group but I swapped it for a Tapco.

Jicko
08-14-2006, 2:58 PM
I just had to adjust the set screws on the trigger. The sear and hammer were set with almost no contact so any little bump caused the hammer to jump off the sear and strike the firing pin. Was not hard to fix at all. Took maybe 30 seconds tops.

I c.... I had been considering JP for sometime now.... and after I saw your posting... I was thinking if I *still* want to get that or I should actually go hunt for something else...

I like how KAC feel... but it is just a little *pricy*....

grammaton76
08-14-2006, 3:20 PM
The ATF likes to use "constructive possession", whereas CA doesn't.

Constructive possession is where owning the requisite parts can mean you own a machine gun.

Because full auto is a federal issue, yes, constructive possession applies, so I would be careful about owning FA parts.

However, it's been stated that they don't care as long as you have no receivers with the 'felony hole' drilled in them to permit the use of the FA parts.

VeryCoolCat
08-14-2006, 3:33 PM
Grammaton has it Constructive Possesion is used as in a sense of receiver....
but I've been told by certain shady folks... its not too hard to make an SKS FA.

They have booklets online how to modify/create a sear that will make an SKS full auto and to modify it to accept detachable mags.

They have the same books for the AR15 those are a little more complicated so i've heard and for the mac10/11.


http://butokukai.com/page1.html

The books are legal to buy/own but DON'T DO IT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T EVEN TRY MODIFYING A FIREARM.... unless the government collapsed or something. You will get in deep dog doo.

Pthfndr
08-14-2006, 5:44 PM
Ah, so it was a sensitive bump fire trigger and not true F/A.

Yep. Sounds more like poor control of the firearm. Definitely was not going full auto.

M. Sage
08-14-2006, 7:12 PM
Could have been worse. Could have happened in front of "journalists" from the LA Times and SF Chronicle.

faterikcartman
08-15-2006, 1:51 AM
I just had to adjust the set screws on the trigger. The sear and hammer were set with almost no contact so any little bump caused the hammer to jump off the sear and strike the firing pin. Was not hard to fix at all. Took maybe 30 seconds tops.

Sounds like a pretty needlessly dangerous setup to me. And I don't mean dangerous from a legal standpoint, but for the people around you.

xrMike
08-15-2006, 7:38 AM
And I don't mean dangerous from a legal standpoint, but for the people around you.I'm curious why you think so... Seems like the recoil from an AR is light enough that even if it went full-auto and caught you by surprise, you'd be able to realize what was happening, recover, and maintain control of the weapon. I've never shot anything full-auto though, so I really have no idea.

Jicko
08-15-2006, 7:55 AM
I'm curious why you think so... Seems like the recoil from an AR is light enough that even if it went full-auto and caught you by surprise, you'd be able to realize what was happening, recover, and maintain control of the weapon. I've never shot anything full-auto though, so I really have no idea.

Actually it is VERY dangerous for you and everyone else around you.

In bu's setup, it wasn't "intended to be full auto", the hammer just continuously dropping without any sear's holding..... there is a possibity that the hammer can drop BEFORE the next round is completely seated in the chamber and the bolt is completely closed (ie. "out of battery")..... and if this happen, kaboom!!! the gun/chamber can physically explode right in front of you....

http://www.quarterbore.com/images/kaboom002.jpg

bwiese
08-15-2006, 8:20 AM
To clarify prior discussion here...

... Possession of even _one_ M16 fire-control part (hammer, trigger, disconnector, selector, or something like a lightning link) for and, and also an AR15/receiver can be regarded as constructively possessing a full-auto gun.

THIS IS BOTH FEDERAL AND STATE LAW.

'Constructive possession' does not apply to AWs in CA, but it _does_ apply to NFA-type firearms in CA law, as well as at the Federal level.

xrMike
08-15-2006, 8:49 AM
Actually it is VERY dangerous for you and everyone else around you.

In bu's setup, it wasn't "intended to be full auto", the hammer just continuously dropping without any sear's holding..... there is a possibity that the hammer can drop BEFORE the next round is completely seated in the chamber and the bolt is completely closed (ie. "out of battery")..... and if this happen, kaboom!!! the gun/chamber can physically explode right in front of you....Woah! :eek: That looks painful AND expensive, but mostly painful. Thanks for the education.

bu-bye
08-15-2006, 10:47 AM
My setup is just as safe as any other setup.......so long as I remember to adjust my trigger:D . I have never had this problem before with my setup and I should never have it again. I broke the rules of gunsmithing and forgot to check my work. Its not the guns fault but mine. I still think the JP trigger is one of the best and will continue to use it. Yes things could have gone bad but they did not and I have learned a life lesson.

To those of you who now want to buy a JP trigger for the wrong reasons please look at the pic JickoRicko posted. Yes that can happen so don't take any chances. It is unsafe to build a FA rifle with the wrong parts plus it is VERY VERY illegal!

Oh and that pic makes you think twice about a bullpup:D

guns_and_labs
08-15-2006, 1:44 PM
If you want a good trigger, get a Chip McCormick

They weren't accepting orders for them, I've been trying for a month so far.

45Auto
08-15-2006, 4:17 PM
. JP triggers are not a drop in part.
That sure is the truth. I fitted a JP trigger in one of my AR's some years ago; the thing worked fine for several months and several trips to the range. Then one day at the range, I had the same experience you describe: bump firing of five rounds in a very short period of time. I took the darn JP trigger out and went back to factory specs. I think they can be adjusted to be very nice, but the adjustment won't hold over time. I have no experience with the Jewell, but its got to be better.

JPglee1
08-15-2006, 4:22 PM
So basically you just adjust the take up, let off and over travel to be as light/short as possible and it becomes a "super bump fire" trigger.

Sounds pretty cool :)

As long as the gun's recoil is resetting and releasing the sear each time, thru your finger's action, nothing illegal about that.


J

bu-bye
08-15-2006, 5:39 PM
was this the Santa Clara county sherrif deputies? I didn't think SC has a SWAT team. What are their appraoch on OLLs? are they uptight in daily operations with OLLs?

It was with a Santa Cruz Sheriff deputy and yes they do have a SWAT team.. Not sure what the departments view on OLL is but if it was not for me, my buddy would have known nothing about them so its safe to say that the DOJ isn't running around with WANTED poster of OLL. He didn't seem to have a problem with my rifle and a SRB. I showed him my site and pointed out the laws and why a OLL is legal and he seemed just fine with it. I'm not sure what the Sheriff himself thinks but my deputy buddy is cool with it.

artherd
08-15-2006, 10:20 PM
Just a quick point, CA has it's own, redundant, prohibition against Machineguns.

There are both federal and state statutes you could be prosecuted under.

The ATF likes to use "constructive possession", whereas CA doesn't.

Constructive possession is where owning the requisite parts can mean you own a machine gun.

Because full auto is a federal issue, yes, constructive possession applies, so I would be careful about owning FA parts.

However, it's been stated that they don't care as long as you have no receivers with the 'felony hole' drilled in them to permit the use of the FA parts.

faterikcartman
08-16-2006, 3:19 AM
Woah! :eek: That looks painful AND expensive, but mostly painful. Thanks for the education.

I just wanted to say that I am impressed with your, to my mind anyway, manly attitude in response. I'm not kidding.

I'm new to this forum and am so used to guys on gun forums going nuts trying to impress everyone with how tough and infallible they are it can get ugly fast. I actually regretted even making the post thinking someone would get bent out of shape, and left my comment without explanation because I didn't want to get into it with anyone.

Then a few days later I see JickoRicko's picture (sorry I had no pictures) and your great response and I'm left thinking WOW! What a great group of guys(and some gals) on this forum.

xrMike
08-16-2006, 11:20 AM
Heheh, yeah, everybody is a tough guy on the Inner-Nut. Especially the multiple gun owners who fancy themselves "low drag, high speed". Arfcom really cracks me up some times...

This place can get "touchy" once in awhile too, but for the most part it's pretty laid-back for a gun group. I like it too. Lots to learn here.

You caught me on a good day. :D

artherd
08-16-2006, 12:48 PM
. JP triggers are not a drop in part.

One of them is! Go to: http://jprifles.com/TriggerParts.php and scroll down to "JP Semi Auto Modular Fire Control Unit". Yeah I know, but just look at that beauty!

creampuff
08-16-2006, 1:26 PM
Oh and that pic makes you think twice about a bullpup:D

Oww..I never cared much for a bullpup to begin with, but now my opinion has changed from indifference, to "no way".

bg
08-16-2006, 7:11 PM
Mna I bet you felt like the s**t was going to hit the fan
serious..I'd of given just about anything to see the look
on your face when it went rock & roll...Priceless ! :D

Jicko
08-17-2006, 5:53 PM
They weren't accepting orders for them, I've been trying for a month so far.

Midway have them in stock http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=977681&EblastID=81720061

bu-bye
08-17-2006, 6:25 PM
well I'll be darned, I guess Santa Cruz has made it, with its own SWAT team and everything. Wait til my pop hears this he'll flip out("what? they got a SWAT now? why aren't they busting doors in the beach flats and Watsonville getting the dope dealers and the illegals???!!!")


Sheesh, in Santa Cruz just about every home has pot in it:rolleyes: . You would be shocked by the amount of people just smoking pot walking down the street. Its such a problem that most cops just look the other way or at most trash the pot and let the guy/girl go. If they dragged everyone in they would not have enough ink to thumb print them all. And as for Watsonville....there are so many illegals here its sick. My neighbors are farm workers....all 15 of them in one home. When the cops roll by I see like half of them running to the backyard and hidding in the tool shed. It makes me laugh and at the same time makes me mad. I will say that they do keep their place neat and don't cause trouble but their loud music coming from their POS van with a $2000 stereo system pisses me off sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I have a very loud system in my car too but I don't sit in my driveway for 5 hours+ bugging the hell out of my neighbors. That is the only reason the cops come by because they can't keep it down.

grammaton76
08-17-2006, 7:21 PM
When the cops roll by I see like half of them running to the backyard and hidding in the tool shed. It makes me laugh and at the same time makes me mad.

Ever thought of covertly videotaping them doing this and sending the PD a copy? Show 'em what's going on... I doubt it would make a difference, but maybe they'd check the shed next time?

JPglee1
08-17-2006, 7:27 PM
Ever thought of covertly videotaping them doing this and sending the PD a copy? Show 'em what's going on... I doubt it would make a difference, but maybe they'd check the shed next time?

:rolleyes:

bu-bye
08-17-2006, 8:03 PM
Ever thought of covertly videotaping them doing this and sending the PD a copy? Show 'em what's going on... I doubt it would make a difference, but maybe they'd check the shed next time?

I'm not the ratting type. If I'm ever questioned about them by LOE's I will spill it but If they are not hurting me or anyone else then I leave things be. I know, I know they are hurting the working class people but you know what I mean. I've known enough busybodies to not want to be one. The whole illegal thing is just like Santa Cruz with the drugs, they know its everywhere but they are not willing to do anything about it.:rolleyes: