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The Soup Nazi
08-13-2006, 10:09 PM
So now that my dad has been consumed by the gun buying frenzy, he now wants a 9mm carbine or AR-15 style rifle (But without the offlist lower hassle). I was suggesting a Kel Tec Sub 2000 and then I just realized that the pistol grip=evil so that was off the ballot.

So is there anything out there for the 9mm carbine besides the Ruger PC9? In the .223 field, what do you all think about Kel-tec SU-16 series? Its a bit more chunk of change to drop on a carbine but you have something thats even more practical than a pistol caliber carbine.

C.G.
08-13-2006, 10:33 PM
For carbines you are limited to the Ruger or Marlin Camp (which is no longer in production).

As to the Kel-Tec, I used to have the A model and liked it in spite of the crappy sights which were improved in later models. There is a thread currently on the Kel-Tec:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=38391

If you do a search you will find many threads about the Kel-Tec.

blkA4alb
08-14-2006, 6:56 AM
Hassles of the OLLs? I would say the benefits greatly outweigh any of the "hassles".

The Soup Nazi
08-14-2006, 7:01 AM
His words, not mine, he doesn't like the idea of spending his time in a non-SHTF to be loading an AR-15 style weapon round by round.

blkA4alb
08-14-2006, 7:11 AM
If any major SHTF, its a simple screw away from being un-neutered. The build can get pricey quick though. "Well that looks cool and its only 50 bucks more...but if I get that I should get this too.."

Stanze
08-14-2006, 7:11 AM
His words, not mine, he doesn't like the idea of spending his time in a non-SHTF to be loading an AR-15 style weapon round by round.

Use the set screw mag button dealio, ready in seconds for SHTF. Or, go SRB or Monsterman grip.

If I was going to buy the Ruger PC9, I'd have to buy a Ruger 9mm pistol to swap mags with it.:D

Tzvia
08-14-2006, 7:26 AM
I keep asking myself, why a 9mm carbine? What's the point? I will always think of something like my Browning HP purchased way before the 10 round nonsense (I've got lots of 'nib' 15 and 20 round mags purchased before the law went into effect and never opened). It's my 'what to grab in a home invasion robery' handgun. Easy to carry, high round count, and reliable. I can't imagine having a much larger rifle with the same round. Ok, so you pick up some fps with the longer barrel, but if performance is the reason, get a rifle caliber.

Your dad will kick himself one day for not buying a few OLL's while he still had time. Sure, get the Kel-Tek, it's a great 'truck gun'. But remember, this is the Peoples Republic of California; it's not often you get a second chance after an unconstitutional law is on the books. I blew it the first time around and did not buy an AR, now I have 9 oll's. I have learned my lesson.

The Soup Nazi
08-14-2006, 9:17 AM
Well, I guess since 9mm and .223 rifles are kind of limited, what about an M1A? We could always use a high powered rifle thats a bit more practical, plus if the man of the house gets thawed to the idea of spending 4 digits on a rifle, then convincing him to buy a CMP Garand shouldn't be a problem at all. ;)

JPglee1
08-14-2006, 10:42 AM
I keep asking myself, why a 9mm carbine? What's the point?


For me, I built my 9mm carbine just for the fun of doing it...

Kinda worthless for more than plinking, but fun to shoot and low recoil.



J

GTKrockeTT
08-14-2006, 10:56 AM
Well, I guess since 9mm and .223 rifles are kind of limited, what about an M1A? We could always use a high powered rifle thats a bit more practical, plus if the man of the house gets thawed to the idea of spending 4 digits on a rifle, then convincing him to buy a CMP Garand shouldn't be a problem at all. ;)

you guys are all over the board with your potential choices...i like it. just means more to buy after the first decision. :D

TonyNorCal
08-14-2006, 11:10 AM
9mm carbines have the advantage of being able to be shot at indoor ranges. Depending on where you live and your shooting habits this might or might not be a big issue. Ammo is also inexpensive.

9mm carbines are also sufficient inside 100 yards for most applications. Is a 5.56 better? In most cases. But I sure wouldn't want to be shot at with a 9mm. Loaded with +P hollowpoint ammo it's more than capable against soft targets. For a Katrina like SHTF situtation I think it's adequate...dissuading people from coming into your home...moving across a lawless town, etc. Is it going to be the best choice for a shoot-out with Red Dawn style paratroopers? No. But seriously, what's the most realistic SHTF? And for home defense a 9mm doesn't have quite the penetration issues of a centerfire rifle.

PC-9 = built for cops, durable, fairly heavy, solid, basically cop-proof. Also available in .40 (PC-40). But out of these I'd get the 9 as most (probably all) use will be plinking. Why Ruger doesn't make this in .45 is beyond me.

Marlin Camp 9 and 45 = I've had both. The feel nice in the hand. Point well, etc. The are more flimsy than the Ruger. Of course, the .45 shoots .45. Best choice for serious hard duty? Not sure. If you get one be sure to change the springs and use a recoil buffer to avoid a cracked stock.

Another option in the same general class is a lever gun. Marlin's 1894c is often on sale at Big 5 for about 320. in .357 you have the option of shooting .38s for plinking and .357 for business. Problem is some of these guns will have difficulty feeding .38s and you don't really know until you have the rifle. But with a .357 lever you can then pickup a .357 revolver and have interchangeable ammo.

Lastly, 9mm carbines don't really enhance bullet velocity appreciably over handguns. I've seen an experiment in which a gain of 100 fps was attained
for SOME ammo. On the other hand, .357 out of a rifle really gets a boost and is close to .30 carbine.

Oh heck that reminds me...
Another choice is a .30 carbine:) . Great carbines. For this route I'd go USGI only. If you shop around you can find an import marked USGI carbine around 500 give or take.

Talk your dad into getting a C&R license.

zatoh
08-14-2006, 11:38 AM
I have a Marlin Camp 9 and I like it. It is a fun plinker and a decent home defense weapon especially for those who are unable to or find shooting pistols uncomfortable. 25 yard indoor pistol ranges are an almost boring place to shoot with this carbine. Some PDs use the Camp 45 (Camp 9's bother), the PC9 or the PC4 (in .40 cal). There is no Ruger "PC" .45 cal equivalent. Like the Ruger, the Marlin Camp 9 takes pistol mags but of the S&W variety. The .45 version takes colt pattern 1911 mags. I'll say this though - the Ruger appears more ruggedly built but I think the Marlin is more aesthetically pleasing. Lastly of course, it's more "PC" for the frightened crowd (please don't flame me..:D). As a side note: ever see the transformation a banana "clip" does to a mini-14/30? It's awsome.

Prior to the standard cap mag ban I bought an Ess-load of S&W and Marlin mags, aftermarket and factory with the intention of buying a S&W 9mm autoloader as a stable mate to the carbine. I never did but if a deal comes up I might take it.

chiefcrash
08-14-2006, 2:58 PM
one nifty thing about the Ruger PC9 (or the PC4, the .40 S&W verstion) is it uses the same mags as the Ruger P series pistols

so you can have a carbine and a pistol using the same mags. not sure how useful that would be outside of law enforcment/security guard/SHTF, but it's kinda nifty.

The Soup Nazi
08-14-2006, 3:37 PM
That was sort of my reasoning with buying one of those Kel-tec Sub2000s with the Beretta 92 pistol grips or a Beretta CX4 Storm Carbine, would use the same magazines, but alas, all ilegal thanks to California's stupid AW laws.

I'd love an M1 Carbine for the sake of collecting WW2 rifles, but I don't know if they make 10 round magazines and I've heard .30 carbine is harder to find/more expensive.

TonyNorCal
08-14-2006, 3:47 PM
Fulton Armory sells 10 round mags (scroll to the bottom). I haven't used these, so can't comment on their functionality, but I'd imagine they're good to go.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/MCarbParts.htm

Ammo is about the same cost as .45 ammo. It's roughly 10 per 50 when purchased online. But of course there's shipping.

M1 Carbines rock. Nothing like a piece of history.

The Soup Nazi
08-14-2006, 3:53 PM
Gah, those look beautiful, 1000 seems a bit steep even though these are very nice carbines+historical desirability, do they only sell direct or is it possible to encounter one in a gun shop at a lower price?

TonyNorCal
08-14-2006, 4:09 PM
Fulton Armory sure does make some nice rifles...a little rich$$$ for my blood though.

I saw an IBM M1 Carbine at Irvington Arms earlier this year for 475. Silly me didn't buy it on the spot and when I went back it had of course sold. I'm not that familiar with other Bay Area gun stores.

Online...with a C&R...in the 500-600 range for an import marked (which doesn't matter much for a shooter and will also increase in value) can be found.

John Browning
08-14-2006, 5:08 PM
Has anyone built an OLL 9mm Carbine? I have a 9mm Colt mag somewhere (I'm like 90% sure it is a Colt 9mm mag...but it has been in my "box-o-mags" for a long time) and this thread got me thinking that a 9mm OLL build might be worth it to get some use out of an old mag.

Can I attach a 20 or 30 round mag that I legally own to an OLL, or can it only be built up with a 10 round 9mm mag?

grammaton76
08-14-2006, 5:11 PM
Has anyone built an OLL 9mm Carbine? I have a 9mm Colt mag somewhere (I'm like 90% sure it is a Colt 9mm mag...but it has been in my "box-o-mags" for a long time) and this thread got me thinking that a 9mm OLL build might be worth it to get some use out of an old mag.

Can I attach a 20 or 30 round mag that I legally own to an OLL, or can it only be built up with a 10 round 9mm mag?

If you're close to Taft, Wes from 10% Firearms may be willing to let you see if your mag fits the 9mm setups he was playing with lately.

blkA4alb
08-14-2006, 5:16 PM
....Can I attach a 20 or 30 round mag that I legally own to an OLL, or can it only be built up with a 10 round 9mm mag?
You can use a high capacity mag if you dont have any other evil features (pistol grip, flash hider, collapsing stock, etc). If it has a pistol grip or other evil feature it has to be a fixed 10 round magazine.

John Browning
08-14-2006, 6:14 PM
You can use a high capacity mag if you dont have any other evil features (pistol grip, flash hider, collapsing stock, etc). If it has a pistol grip or other evil feature it has to be a fixed 10 round magazine.

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame! So much for that idea....

Even a 10 round 9mm AR might be a cool toy, anyhow. Thanks for the information guys.

JPglee1
08-14-2006, 6:17 PM
Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame! So much for that idea....

Even a 10 round 9mm AR might be a cool toy, anyhow. Thanks for the information guys.

Gripless ARs are fun to shoot man.

If you've got a pinned mag lower, take the grip off, pull out the safety and pop the mag back in and shoot it with no grip. Its not so bad at all, especially if you hold the magazine well with your off hand.

9mm would be super easy to shoot like that.


JP

M. Sage
08-14-2006, 7:08 PM
Oh heck that reminds me...
Another choice is a .30 carbine:) . Great carbines. For this route I'd go USGI only. If you shop around you can find an import marked USGI carbine around 500 give or take.

Talk your dad into getting a C&R license.

+1 M1 Carbine. Terriffic shooters, still rather low recoil. Not terribly powerful, but still above a pistol-caliber carbine.

But... you already have an SKS, which is pretty comparable. The M1 Carbine has 2, maybe 3 advantages. 1: better sights. Much better sights. I hate rifles/carbines with pistol sights stuck on them. 2: detachable mag, nuff said, but that leads us to the "maybe" advantage... 3: the M1 Carbine 15 and 30 round Mags your dad forgot he has in the attic.