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NYY
01-13-2011, 1:29 AM
got my 91/30 today. LOVE it. took it apart right away and learned it all and cleaned the cosmo out. Learned to take down the bolt.. took a while... took apart wood from barrel.... put barrel back together... AND THEN i TRIED putting the barrel bands on aand.. well, the pressure was so tight..something was wrong because they werent going BACK On easily AT ALLL and was all bad that It slipped fast and quickly took off the "holder" for the bands on the barrel.. ok.. so i replace the band with black rubber tape... AND then try putting the first band on to go to the spot closest to the 100-900 m sight.. had to use a hammer and screw driver... my wood IS ALL MESSED UP. i cried from frustration. never getting another mosin nagant. took me literally from 8pm to 1am to finish my "simple take down" process. Even though I love mine and bolt is so smoooth i can eat off it, Im sticking with this C&R only.... :D

Alex$
01-13-2011, 7:16 AM
A piece of scrap 1"x2" about 10" long, either redwood or doug-fir is what I use to get stubborn barrel bands on and off. It will not scar the finish or the wood if you are careful.

Is the wood scarred or is it just the shellac that got buggered?

Interloper
01-13-2011, 7:53 AM
Holy wow. If something doesn't want to go, force it? All you had to do was spread the bands a tiny bit with a screwdriver or snap ring pliers. How bad is it? Let's see some pics. You may be able to smooth out the shellac with some denatured alcohol.

Volksgrenadier
01-13-2011, 11:21 AM
There is a wealth of information about mosin nagant rifles available on the net, youtube, web forums, etc. Avail yourself of such knowledge before resorting to hammer work :-D

Hopefully merely the shellac was in any way damaged and can be fixed with denatured alcohol, amber shellac, and some TLC.

edwardm
01-13-2011, 11:38 AM
A hammer and a screwdriver. Oh boy. At least you didn't go total caveman and grab the nearest rock!

A generally good rule of thumb (because contrary to popular believe, sometimes you need *some force* to put things together) is to use a sacrificial 'driving' material softer and more malleable than the 'driven' material. So, if I'm tapping in a steel pin, I'll use a brass punch or pin setter. If I'm working on brass or copper or hard wood, I'll use a nylon punch or a piece of viton and a rubber mallet or hammer. For even softer things, I'll use a very light rubber hammer and a piece of rag or cloth.

One thing to remember is that when working on anything, guns, cars, furniture, be patient It went together once before looking nice and proper, so it can be done again. :)

olhunter
01-13-2011, 11:54 AM
Ok, so you learned something. Now it has 'character'. ;)

Better a Mosin than something valuable.

You can get another one for $69.

And unless you truly gouged the wood badly, you can fix it.

rojocorsa
01-13-2011, 11:58 AM
I scratched my shellac, but I don't really care. It's not like the rifle was 100% finish when got it.


+1 for PITA barrel bands.

NYY
01-13-2011, 12:57 PM
i thiiink its the shellac that got all scuffed. puttin pics up in a sec

NYY
01-13-2011, 1:12 PM
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j446/LAcatLA/DSCN0674.jpg

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j446/LAcatLA/DSCN0673.jpg

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j446/LAcatLA/DSCN0675.jpg

00BuckShot
01-13-2011, 1:18 PM
Try using a chain saw next time. Comes off real easy!

Sorry I couldn't resist. Sucks but hey, it's your gun, it's just character!

paul0660
01-13-2011, 1:18 PM
In the last picture, are those gouges on the stock (lower part) your work?

Haggar85
01-13-2011, 1:20 PM
thats 10 minuets worth of damage on a good day in Stalingrad.

NYY
01-13-2011, 1:23 PM
Yes those gouges are my work.... and more like 30 minutes my friend...

paul0660
01-13-2011, 1:27 PM
3 things:

learn from this;

the wood block thing works;

you can stick a small screwdriver in the seam of the band to spread it.

Oh yeah a little lube helps too.

olhunter
01-13-2011, 1:49 PM
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j446/LAcatLA/DSCN0675.jpg

Are all those dents from you and your hammer? lol....

Step away from the tools....;)

It's actually not too bad. You can fix the shellac and steam out the dents if you're unhappy with it.

Milsurp Collector
01-13-2011, 2:13 PM
See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5103801 and http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4453254

Alex$
01-13-2011, 2:38 PM
Well we know the cause of it getting stuck now that the photos are up.

The barrel band is upside down. The split in the band goes underneath, the stamped arsenal mark, (the small triangle) goes on the left side.

Alex$
01-13-2011, 2:44 PM
Barrel band is more narrow on top, see photos in the middle of this page.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinDisassembly.htm

Your best bet to get it off without further wood buggery is to slightly spread the band apart and pull it off. (a third hands helps about now)

And the barrel band springs, did you bugger those? Or are they simply not installed when the photos were taken?

jpscoot_21
01-13-2011, 5:12 PM
I've read that gouges and nicks could be brought back up with an iron and some steam. Doesn't look too bad. I haven't gotten to my 91/30 yet, which needs a drill and bore brush to clean the lacquer out of the chamber. It gets stuck cases.

Saigon1965
01-13-2011, 5:24 PM
Poor wood - It didn't mean anything -

OP - Think of it as a lesson - Take your time - I am the same have little patience -

NYY
01-13-2011, 5:42 PM
Well we know the cause of it getting stuck now that the photos are up.

The barrel band is upside down. The split in the band goes underneath, the stamped arsenal mark, (the small triangle) goes on the left side.

actually that band you see thats upside down is placed in the middle.... i pushed it til it fit snug and didnt realize it was upside down..oh well... i taped the end of the barrel cover to hold since i snapped off the original holder...

NYY
01-13-2011, 5:43 PM
See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5103801 and http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4453254

AHHH the first post there is exactly what happened with me.... literally 5 mins til i was finished cleaning the cosmo...so cool...

locktime
01-13-2011, 6:24 PM
Mosins are more farm implement than art object.

Put a spam can of heavy ball down range and all will be right.

stitchnicklas
01-13-2011, 7:12 PM
time for a tool test ,if it needs a hammer time to step away for the day and think...

NYY
01-13-2011, 10:46 PM
time for a tool test ,if it needs a hammer time to step away for the day and think...

true. bad choice on my part. was about 4 hours deep into cleaning it from getting it that day... just wanted to get everything all correct and be done. Got VERY impatient and frustrated. Much regret, but... went over the scratched parts today with an "Old Fashion: Dark Wood" finish... cant even tell what happened :) soo it alll goodddd
:cool:

Interloper
01-13-2011, 11:03 PM
In the future, try cleaning your guns in a well ventilated area. Those fumes can be pretty strong.

iareConfusE
01-13-2011, 11:37 PM
So you hammered your barrel bands on upside down...?

Goldseeker
01-13-2011, 11:59 PM
..and some people wonder why someone would cut off the excess wood stock...

Milsurp Collector
01-14-2011, 12:22 AM
..and some people wonder why someone would cut off the excess wood stock...

Cut off the so-called "excess" stock so you won't mess it up by reassembling the rifle incorrectly with a hammer and screwdriver?

That's like saying you should amputate your leg to prevent stubbing your toe. :p

Anchors
01-14-2011, 1:07 AM
A hammer and a screwdriver. Oh boy. At least you didn't go total caveman and grab the nearest rock!

A generally good rule of thumb (because contrary to popular believe, sometimes you need *some force* to put things together) is to use a sacrificial 'driving' material softer and more malleable than the 'driven' material. So, if I'm tapping in a steel pin, I'll use a brass punch or pin setter. If I'm working on brass or copper or hard wood, I'll use a nylon punch or a piece of viton and a rubber mallet or hammer. For even softer things, I'll use a very light rubber hammer and a piece of rag or cloth.

One thing to remember is that when working on anything, guns, cars, furniture, be patient It went together once before looking nice and proper, so it can be done again. :)

Good advice. I use the ol' "use something softer than the thing you are smacking" method often.

Cut off the so-called "excess" stock so you won't mess it up by reassembling the rifle incorrectly with a hammer and screwdriver?

That's like saying you should amputate your leg to prevent stubbing your toe. :p

Hahaha nice.


Honestly man, don't worry about it. It looks fine and still better than the sporterized mosins.
I'm sure a couple comrades hammered their barrel bands on upside down and messed up the stock back in the old country.
Still looks and will still shoot like a mosin.
Enjoy your shoulder bruise.

SixPointEight
01-14-2011, 1:20 AM
I hear a lot of concern for the stuck band. But did I read that while hammering one on there you snapped it off and used tape in it's place?:eek:

kel-tec-innovations
01-14-2011, 1:32 AM
THE BAND IS PLACED ON UPSIDE DOWN!!:no::90: Am I the only one that noticed the band is upside down? The band only goes in one way, the top of the band is narrower than the bottom thus if its placed in upside down it will not fit. Generally if something don't fit try something else and look before bashing with a hammer. :pinch:

iareConfusE
01-14-2011, 1:48 AM
THE BAND IS PLACED ON UPSIDE DOWN!!:no::90: Am I the only one that noticed the band is upside down? The band only goes in one way, the top of the band is narrower than the bottom thus if its placed in upside down it will not fit. Generally if something don't fit try something else and look before bashing with a hammer. :pinch:

Other people noticed it before you did... Did you read the thread? haha

pingpong
01-14-2011, 1:59 AM
Just remember, if you ever screw it up, you can always refinish it and keep it as a good lookin' shooter.

NYY
01-14-2011, 1:54 PM
k well i guess i should have taken a better picture... the BAND that caused all of this scratching is all the way at the end of the wood barrel cover (on correctly, Trust me) ... and IS NOT coming off in the near future, (possible because of the hammer and screwdriver ;) ... the picture with the ONE band that is upside down, well i was much frustrated at that point and didnt realize it until it also was on pretty tight and didnt even bother... i TAPED the spot where the band should go more towards the muzzle.

Interloper
01-14-2011, 2:04 PM
Hey LG_Marine,
You're getting ribbed a bit in this thread and I hope you don't take it personal. It's all meant in good fun, not meanness. It's so comical that we just have to give you some crap over it.

One thing I was wondering...is it possible that you forced the front band all the way to the back? They are different sizes. And that top piece of wood is called a handguard. ;)

NYY
01-14-2011, 2:20 PM
haha no i know. Its just obviously hard to show true expression in text. i aint mad i understand the humor in these forums. and SOMETHING happened to have the rings not slide on easily.... and yes handguards haha. I just didnt think the handguards term i know of from my AR and AK would apply to these.

Alex$
01-14-2011, 2:54 PM
The MN was one of the first rifles to adopt a top handguard, before then there were many a burned hand during fighting.

Breaking down a new firearm the first time is part of the joy of collecting them, (for me anyway) each has its own requirements and personality. You have to be cautious and take your time to prevent a situation much like you encountered.

Honestly, the only way I can think of a barrel band going on extra tight and it snapping the band retaining springs is if the front was tried to be installed on the back (unlikely). Or more likely I think, the rear retaining band was installed upside down.

Don't worry too much: there are retaining springs available for sale cheap and the wood doesn't look too bad, it certainly won't affect shooting it.

Keep the rifle and use it as an example of what loss of patience can do to any tool.

Fate
01-14-2011, 9:10 PM
What's the old saw about locking a Marine in a room with a brick and a hammer? Something like the Marine will break the hammer and lose the brick.

:D

devilinblack
01-14-2011, 9:19 PM
Actually, I'll thank you for posting this. I like to think I'd have noticed that the bands can be spread, but you just never know.

I used a pair of snap ring pliers to open mine up enough to get on and off with no issues and it worked perfectly, so thanks.

olhunter
01-14-2011, 11:19 PM
What's the old saw about locking a Marine in a room with a brick and a hammer? Something like the Marine will break the hammer and lose the brick.:D

The brick is not lost. We chew them up and eat them.

And the hammer simply can't take what we dish out.

So there. :)

NYY
01-14-2011, 11:35 PM
snap ring pliers. i keep hearing this. I suppose I might need a pair in the near future.

Alex$
01-15-2011, 12:43 AM
snap ring pliers. i keep hearing this. I suppose I might need a pair in the near future.

I don't own any, here is what I use for my MN collection:

small hammer (for removing the barrel band retaining springs)
small punch (for the barrel band springs, or a small nail with the point flattened: used with small hammer. Hammer does not touch rifle)
Mosin Nagant bolt tool
large screw driver (if you misplaced the MN bolt tool. BONUS, it is a better fit than bolt tool)
small screw driver, needed if you want to detail strip (nose cap, ejector/interruptor spring retaining bolt)
small length of redwood or douglas fir 1"x2" scrap (used on pre-war stock band retaining springs or stubborn bands)

Detail stripping: (some argue it should not be done)

small needle nose pliers to remove recoil bolt "nut" (small pliers should fit in hole of recoil nut) ((this is what I use instead of snap ring pliers))
large pliers to hold the small needle nose pliers in the recoil bolt "nut" (hold small pliers in holes just above wood to keep small pliers from bending)
large punch to drift the recoil bolt out. [Why do some argue you should remove recoil bolt? Are you sure you installed it correctly when you reassemble bolt and lug?]

Optional and useful tools

Q-tips - help in cleaning
cotton swabs to clean the bolt body, 6" swabs from medical supply house are cheapest
20 ga shotgun brass bore brush (or worn out .223/5.56 chamber brush) for sticky chamber syndrome. Brush is chucked in drill and at slow speed used with solvent to clean chamber.

Advanced tools (if there is such a thing with MN's)
stake
brass punch (I still use steel, but everyone says to use brass to prevent damage. I am just careful)
vice
barrel vice (for removal)
receiver clamp (to hold receiver when taking barrel on/off)
camp fire to roast hot dog on bayonet
chocolate, graham crackers and marshmallows (to be used with camp fire if you get your girlfriend/wife to camp with you. Chocolate always scores points)

These rifles are simple, you only need simple tools. If there is a specialty tool needed to remove something, maybe you shouldn't be removing it. The recoil bolt MUST make a good solid contact with the recoil lug, if you are unsure that this happens you may permanently damage your stock. (read that as "break the damn thing")

In most cases you will not need to remove the recoil bolt for routine cleaning.

Most important, do not forgot these three things:

1. Since we live in California - means to store rifle securely.

2. Rifle rack that can be used to clean multiple rilfes at a time. (you know you are going to own more than one right?)

3. Much larger means to store larger rifle collection. (again, you know you are going to own more than one, right?)

Have fun

NYY
01-15-2011, 1:29 AM
awesome tips! thanks so much man!

Ryan in SD
01-15-2011, 3:10 AM
Wow...

This thread is awesome.

Poor guy, I think I see blood on the band in the first pic.

Anchors
01-15-2011, 4:19 AM
Wow...

This thread is awesome.

Poor guy, I think I see blood on the band in the first pic.

Probably Cosmoline. Unless...

Did you get mad and start a fist fight with that rifle, Marine?
haha. I've been frustrated to the point of almost wanting to shoot at the gun I was dealing with using a different firearm, but I restrained myself for the neighbor's sake.

NYY
01-15-2011, 4:28 PM
Probably Cosmoline. Unless...

Did you get mad and start a fist fight with that rifle, Marine?
haha. I've been frustrated to the point of almost wanting to shoot at the gun I was dealing with using a different firearm, but I restrained myself for the neighbor's sake.

I actually did cut my pinky and it was bleeding and i didnt even notice. At one point i was so frustrated i grabbed the bayonet, and..well, lets just say no creatures/humans were harmed.

zfields
01-15-2011, 4:33 PM
holy improper tool usage batman!

hcbr
01-15-2011, 4:37 PM
yikes, good luck on fixin her!

NYY
01-15-2011, 5:20 PM
haha thanks. its no biggy. i learned. just scratched the shellac. i plan on giving her a whooole new finish anyways.

hnoppenberger
01-16-2011, 11:58 PM
its a mosin, who cares? id say it looks better messed up.

Mojaveman
01-17-2011, 3:15 PM
LG MARINE,

I restore old guns as a hobby and learned many things the hard way. One thing we have today that I didn't have when I was younger is the Internet.

Before starting any project with a firearm make sure that you have the right tools and technique. It will save you expensive damages and the possibility of ruining a nice gun. Ask questions of others with more experience.

Be happy that your barrel bands are tight because on many Mosins they are loose. A thick layer of shellac over wood is not the best type of finish to have on a rifle that has tight fiting barrel bands. Every time that you take them off or put them on you're going to scratch it. That's one reason why I finished my Mosin with stain and oil. A light application of cooking oil or dish soap might make things a little easier next time.

If you not sure about anything make sure and ask questions here or on other Mosin forums.

Welcome to the Mosin club.

Nostrovia!

NYY
01-17-2011, 3:39 PM
LG MARINE,

I restore old guns as a hobby and learned many things the hard way. One thing we have today that I didn't have when I was younger is the Internet.

Before starting any project with a firearm make sure that you have the right tools and technique. It will save you expensive damages and the possibility of ruining a nice gun. Ask questions of others with more experience.

Be happy that your barrel bands are tight because on many Mosins they are loose. A thick layer of shellac over wood is not the best type of finish to have on a rifle that has tight fiting barrel bands. Every time that you take them off or put them on you're going to scratch it. That's one reason that I finished my Mosin with stain and oil. A light application of cooking oil might make things a little easier next time.

If you not sure about anything make sure and ask questions here or on other Mosin forums.

Welcome to the Mosin club.

Nostrovia!

thanks bro! great advice

Interloper
01-17-2011, 8:30 PM
LG MARINE,

I restore old guns as a hobby and learned many things the hard way. One thing we have today that I didn't have when I was younger is the Internet.

Before starting any project with a firearm make sure that you have the right tools and technique. It will save you expensive damages and the possibility of ruining a nice gun. Ask questions of others with more experience.

Be happy that your barrel bands are tight because on many Mosins they are loose. A thick layer of shellac over wood is not the best type of finish to have on a rifle that has tight fiting barrel bands. Every time that you take them off or put them on you're going to scratch it. That's one reason why I finished my Mosin with stain and oil. A light application of cooking oil might make things a little easier next time.

If you not sure about anything make sure and ask questions here or on other Mosin forums.

Welcome to the Mosin club.

Nostrovia!

Not good advice.
If you are refinishing a gun you are not "restoring" it. You are customizing it.

Mojaveman
01-18-2011, 8:12 PM
Not good advice.
If you are refinishing a gun you are not "restoring" it. You are customizing it.

I don't customize firearms.

Refinishing old and in poor condition military firearms to like original condition with the correct blueing, parkerizing, stains, oils, etc. is called "restoring".

I was a weapons specialist in the military and have plenty of good advice to share with any interested members here.

mosinnagantm9130
01-19-2011, 2:44 PM
Refinishing old and in poor condition military firearms to like original condition with the correct blueing, parkerizing, stains, oils, etc. is called "restoring".


Unless you happen to be a government arsenal at the last time that rifle was rebuilt, it is not a "correct" finish.

Mojaveman
01-19-2011, 7:55 PM
Unless you happen to be a government arsenal at the last time that rifle was rebuilt, it is not a "correct" finish.

Ok, how about something that looks pretty close to original? ;)

knucklehead0202
01-19-2011, 8:08 PM
+1 to the "sacrificial" material. when i had a hakim it jammed on me when i was shooting out in the desert and i had no tools. found a piece of wood and smacked it open. no harm done and cleared the jam, lol. c&r's are like women though. they require a LOT of patience and a gentle touch. unless you just can't take anymore...then get out the hammer and....well nevermind.

mosinnagantm9130
01-20-2011, 1:33 PM
Ok, how about something that looks pretty close to original? ;)

Now were talking!:D

I don't mind a restoration on a rifle that badly needs it, like Milsurp Collector's recent G98, but there are plenty of milsurps that don't need refinishing that get it anyway.

NYY
01-20-2011, 7:21 PM
+1 to the "sacrificial" material. when i had a hakim it jammed on me when i was shooting out in the desert and i had no tools. found a piece of wood and smacked it open. no harm done and cleared the jam, lol. c&r's are like women though. they require a LOT of patience and a gentle touch. unless you just can't take anymore...then get out the hammer and....well nevermind.

hahaha! yes. the hammer and...SCREWdriver. you make a solid point :D

Mojaveman
01-20-2011, 7:58 PM
Now were talking!:D

I don't mind a restoration on a rifle that badly needs it, like Milsurp Collector's recent G98, but there are plenty of milsurps that don't need refinishing that get it anyway.

You are absolutely correct and I agree with your philosophy. Surplus rifles that are still in pretty good condition are better left alone because they still hold their value. The ones I like to work on are the ones that I find at gunshows or gunstores that nobody wants. The first thing that I check is the bore and if that is ok and there isn't too much rust on the outside then I look at the stock. Even bad stocks can be made to look pretty good again. What I don't like are too many cracks or water damage. When I find one that I like then I get started and after many hours of tedious work admire my new babies when their done.