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xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 1:31 PM
I live in Sacramento and Thanks to the hard work and dedication of Calguns and others I will be issued my CCW shortly.

I checked my Employers Policy on this issue. I don't have the exact verbage with me, but it is basically this:

Employees are not allowed to carry any weapon on their person, or even in their vehicle. They specifically name firearms, knives, and pepper spray. So simply put their policy prohibits me from being able to defend myself at all from an attacker and/or robbery attempt with necessary force(if need be). There are many times I work late at night with limited crew on hand. I am a key carrying manager, so I would be the sole person that the robbers would be dealing with to have access to the safe/money. Our company keeps extending our business hours even though there are very few customers in late at night. This is perfect for anyone wanting to come in and rob us. Last night for example between 8pm and 9pm we only had one customer come in.

We're also not in the best of neighborhoods.
Thanks In Advance

jb7706
01-12-2011, 1:43 PM
You have 3 options in no particular order:
1.) Ignore the policy and accept the consequences if/when caught.
2.) Work with the employer to change the policy.
3.) Find another employer.

domino
01-12-2011, 1:45 PM
I dont think much can be done for you. It is their property, their business, if it is their policy then you have to abide by it. Same thing with your house. If someone came to your home, you get to decide who can and cant be armed while in your house. (unless it is LEO)

The only thing I could suggest to you, park your car off of their property and then take the risk of your gun being stolen from your car. You could also not say anything and still carry but you have to remember that California is an "at will" state, so they can let you go for anything they want.

My company has a policy and the wording of it is :
3. Unauthorized possession of dangerous or illegal firearms, weapons or explosives on company property or while on duty.

For me I see a loophole in the companies policy that I work for, mine says "Unauthorized", having a ccw makes you authorized. So unless they change policy I think I am okay. I also work for a very small company and they dont really care all that much as they know I have been in the process, but I still dont think I will let them know I am carrying.

maddoggie13
01-12-2011, 1:47 PM
Or suit your employer to provide security person 24/7 for each person...

Gryff
01-12-2011, 1:57 PM
Employees are not allowed to carry any weapon on their person, or even in their vehicle. They specifically name firearms, knives, and pepper spray. So simply put their policy prohibits me from being able to defend myself at all from an attacker and/or robbery attempt with necessary force(if need be). There are many times I work late at night with limited crew on hand. I am a key carrying manager, so I would be the sole person that the robbers would be dealing with to have access to the safe/money. Our company keeps extending our business hours even though there are very few customers in late at night. This is perfect for anyone wanting to come in and rob us. Last night for example between 8pm and 9pm we only had one customer come in.

Their playground, their rules. You have no rights (and shouldn't have) to tell them that they can't make these rules. Now, there have been cases in other states regarding the rules against storing your CCW weapon in your car on company property. Some courts have upheld this, and others have rejected it. The Libertarian in me is mixed on this since it creates a potential situation where it is impossible to legally carry before or after work.

jayboy74
01-12-2011, 1:57 PM
I would talk to the company and find out what can be done to change the policy , I would make an argument for why it would be a good idea to carry while at work. I would think it through and think of arguments for their arguments, If you can rebut their arguments with things that make sense you may have a chance of changing the rules. You have a good chance of having them change the rules so that you can at least keep your weapon locked in your car while at work but actually keeping it on you at work will be a hard rule to overturn. If they deny you carrying a firearm maybe you can at least get permision to carry pepper spray , Hey its better than nothing.

I have friends who carry while working and they are under the impression that ask forgiveness and not permission.

Anti-Hero
01-12-2011, 2:01 PM
How would the employer know if you were carrying in your car? Or your backpack/briefcase/fanny pack/dayplanner/etc...

OleCuss
01-12-2011, 2:04 PM
When I got my CCW I got permission to secure my handgun on the premises (I don't actually carry at work since I am not sure I could maintain concealment). I went to several people up several different chains to make sure it was OK despite the official policy.

Two of the three are now gone and I don't see much benefit to raising the issue with their replacements. . .

jtmkinsd
01-12-2011, 2:07 PM
How would the employer know if you were carrying in your car? Or your backpack/briefcase/fanny pack/dayplanner/etc...

They wouldn't...unless something happened to expose it. If it's worth it to you, and you are willing to lose your job with no recourse, then by all means ignore the policy and carry. If you value your job and don't want to jeopordize it, then don't.

CSACANNONEER
01-12-2011, 2:09 PM
Ask upper management if they will make an exception for those who are trained an "licensed" to CCW. Just remember that it is their house and their rules. You don't have to like the rules but, you should respect them. If you can not respect them, you're probably not mature enough to CCW in the first place but, since you're asking these questions, I'm pretty sure that you are mature and will respect their rules.

G lock
01-12-2011, 2:15 PM
like the others stated above i would discuss it with the boss. if he disagrees hopefully he has insurance to cover it if the business gets robbed.

Anti-Hero
01-12-2011, 2:20 PM
They wouldn't...unless something happened to expose it. If it's worth it to you, and you are willing to lose your job with no recourse, then by all means ignore the policy and carry. If you value your job and don't want to jeopordize it, then don't.

How can an employer persuade you to let them search your personal property? They Can't... If you chose to carry concealed on your person then yes, someone might see it.

Merc1138
01-12-2011, 2:24 PM
How can an employer persuade you to let them search your personal property? They Can't... If you chose to carry concealed on your person then yes, someone might see it.

That's exactly what he was referring to. A shirt getting shifted, a bag falling over. Another employee seeing that is all it takes. Then all the employer has to say is "Well Jim said he saw a pistol in your briefcase, prove there isn't one. Can't prove it's not there? You're fired".

domino
01-12-2011, 2:26 PM
I want to stress this point though:
If you speak to management and they agree to let you carried, make sure you get it in writting. If they change the policy for only you, then ask that they give you a copy of the policy change for you.

dantodd
01-12-2011, 2:30 PM
submit an official request to carry on site and/or store it in your car. If you are denied do as they say, park off-site if necessary. If you are ever assaulted it will be important for the lawsuit that you document that you asked your employer for permission to protect yourself before you relied on them to do so.

domino
01-12-2011, 2:30 PM
How can an employer persuade you to let them search your personal property? They Can't... If you chose to carry concealed on your person then yes, someone might see it.

Yes they can, if they have a policy in place that you have read and signed stating that they can search your personal property, then they can. There happens to be a policy where I am, it was just added a year ago, trust when I tell you they had copr. lawyers draft it to make sure it was legal. I was even taken back by it, but we have had a lose policy in regards to alcohol at work, everyone here drinks, on bdays, holiday whatever, it is not uncommon for the ladies to have a few drinks sometimes, well we had someone pass out from too much vodka in her OJ one morning and had to be rushed to the hospital, after that the policy was changed to allow for it during certain times and not in excess (crazy sounding I know), along with that policy came the new search policy, if it is in the office it can be searched. period.

joe_sun
01-12-2011, 2:35 PM
Please excuse me because this is second hand information BUT from a reliable source.

My FFL I've been using for years has another customer in Sacramento country. This customer left a rifle in his car, in plain view, against company policy, because he was going to the range after work.

The employer saw the rifle, called the police out and had him escorted off the premises with his termination check in hand.

Later on that day there was a knock at the door.. it was the cops again.. with a restraining order in hand that the company had taken out against him because they were afraid he would go postal. They then seized all of his firearms.

choprzrul
01-12-2011, 2:35 PM
Sounds to me like you just need to start your own business. As a key carrying manager, you certainly should have the inside knowledge and skill to operate on your own. Then, you get to have the say over such critically important decisions.


.

POLICESTATE
01-12-2011, 2:37 PM
I park my car on the public street in front of my building, so it is none of their business what I may or may not have in my car. However for the heck of it I'm going to list some of the weapons in the car:

1. The Car
2. Tire Iron
3. Screwdriver
4. 2" crappy folding knife
5. Tire Gauge
6. Pen

I also have lots of weapons around my workspace, here's a few:
1. Computer keyboard
2. Lots of pens
3. Box cutter
4. Various tools including screwdrivers and hammers
5. Large CD Duplicator spindles (would work great either as a mace or an impalement device) which are stainless steel, 15" long and weight about 5 pounds at the end
6. Heavy gel-filled keyboard wrist pad
7. Improptu defensive sprays like 409 and Lysol

One could say I'm heavily armed.

But since I have no firearm I'm not considered armed according to the policy.

Gryff
01-12-2011, 2:38 PM
My FFL I've been using for years has another customer in Sacramento country. This customer left a rifle in his car, in plain view, against company policy, because he was going to the range after work.

The employer saw the rifle, called the police out and had him escorted off the premises with his termination check in hand.

Later on that day there was a knock at the door.. it was the cops again.. with a restraining order in hand that the company had taken out against him because they were afraid he would go postal. They then seized all of his firearms.

The moral of the story...never go full retard.

Bringing a gun against policy? Don't leave it in plain view. Unholstering your legally carried weapon while in the parking lot? Make sure you have some privacy while doing it.

SScott
01-12-2011, 2:43 PM
Wheteva you're da man you can do whateva the hell you want! He ain't da boss a you!

I say bring your gun, and if anyone says S**T tell em to F off and they can have you gat when they pull it from you cold dead fingers.

See how far that gets you, cause you da man and ain't no one gonna tell you what to do... WERD...

:rolleyes:

pacifico23
01-12-2011, 2:45 PM
Yeah I wouldn't even recommend bringing it up to management. If they have an anti gun attitude, just imagine their opinion of you after that argument. If it was my company even though I'm pro-guns. I wouldn't want my employees carrying firearms on my property. Only person I trust with a gun is me. Lol.

N6ATF
01-12-2011, 2:50 PM
Maybe you could have an anonymous debate with them over IM or an email account you create for that purpose. Would have the benefit of providing links to support your side and diminish any Brady propaganda they spout.

Coded-Dude
01-12-2011, 2:51 PM
make a container, attach it to the vehicle and store it "under" your car...not "in" it.

stormy_clothing
01-12-2011, 3:05 PM
all employment policies have to be in accordance with the law, if you have a concealed weapon it's concealed right? and it's there because you have a license for it to be there right ?.

of course you could simply find out if any local or state ordinance specifically bars you from this or just be glad you have a job in this economy and not worry about it.

no boss that I know of thats not in the firearms carrying to work line of business is going to want or have public policies encouraging there presence at work.

Anti-Hero
01-12-2011, 3:06 PM
I'm just saying be smart about what you chose to do. Don't go full retard.

luckystrike
01-12-2011, 3:18 PM
its called concealed-as in hidden. I wouldnt bring it up to any management or else they might get the idea that you are carrying

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 3:22 PM
Lots of good points and point of views here guys. Thank you for the amount of input. I have a pistol on my permit that is very easily concealed in an itp holster. Like many have said if I bring it up to them then they'll probably look at me in a different light. Fortunately being a member of management I have dealt with the Human Resources Deparment on many occasions and they're super anal about terminating anyone... meaning that if for some reason I decide to carry at work and someone notices then runs it up the flag pole they would more than likely just write me up for violating company policy. Then I would have to violate that policy two to three times more to be terminated depending on circumstance.

The retailer I work for is a nationwide retailer ran by a corporate office. It's also a family owned company. No stock holders, not public.

So, now just as before I asked of your opinions I'm still at the same conundrum... Carry and risk my job, or don't carry and risk my life...

Some other suggestions were to either open my own business, or find a different employer.
Both are excellent suggestions and those will come with time. My girlfriend is almost done with college. Our plan is once she graduates and starts with her career then we can work on what I'm going to do whether it's go back to school, or start my own business.

I also like the idea of the anonymous email. I plan on writing an email to corporate about this and inquiring about it specifically.

uscbigdawg
01-12-2011, 3:33 PM
For me, having worked in offices with anti-gun folks (and even resigning over the issue) I'll say this. I would rather have my firearm nearby (maybe not on my person) than in the parking lot. So...a little diligence on your part to conceal is likely the best course here and do so in a manor that will not be accidentally found.

Rich

CharAznable
01-12-2011, 3:40 PM
That's made me wonder: if you have a CCW that you can't carry at work and something happens at work where you are injured because you couldn't defend yourself then how is your employer not at fault? Didn't they create a unsafe work environment? I would at least look to bring the lawsuit.

tazmanian devil dog
01-12-2011, 3:42 PM
Be discreet and just leave it in your car.

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 3:43 PM
That's made me wonder: if you have a CCW that you can't carry at work and something happens at work where you are injured because you couldn't defend yourself then how is your employer not at fault? Didn't they create a unsafe work environment? I would at least look to bring the lawsuit.

The main problem with this arguement is that I may very well be dead at this point.

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 3:44 PM
Be discreet and just leave it in your car.

In the car does no good if a person having a dangerous weapon is in your face with bad intentions

shtr45acp
01-12-2011, 3:50 PM
itsa liability thing, set forth by more lawyers writing their prose in order to cover the arses of those employing them. Thats all. Just like comp insurance. All is done to keep the fat of the employer out of the litigious fire when shtf. get another job. If you wanna carry a gun at work, be a cop or join the Marines

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 3:57 PM
itsa liability thing, set forth by more lawyers writing their prose in order to cover the arses of those employing them. Thats all. Just like comp insurance. All is done to keep the fat of the employer out of the litigious fire when shtf. get another job. If you wanna carry a gun at work, be a cop or join the Marines

I would much rather just be able to excersice my 2a rights as well as use my CCW where it is most needed. While at work. I can see over 500 customers per day. We also have a lot of people stealing from us. We're not able to do much except ask them to leave(also per company policy). There has been one instance in my store with a theif getting caught then being asked to leave and the employee had a knife pulled on them. Fortunately no one was hurt that time anyway...

One should not have to change careers to excersize their 2a rights.

doctor_vals
01-12-2011, 4:43 PM
In the car does no good if a person having a dangerous weapon is in your face with bad intentions

.....We also have a lot of people stealing from us. We're not able to do much except ask them to leave(also per company policy). There has been one instance in my store with a theif getting caught then being asked to leave and the employee had a knife pulled on them. Fortunately no one was hurt that time anyway...
.

So, you afraid that somebody going to steal some items or even money? "By your company policy" - you just give them everything what they want and be safe. They want to rob - let them do that. Are you going to defend companies money... when they do not care about your life????

maschronic
01-12-2011, 4:59 PM
sounds like you need another job like scooping ice cream at baskin robbins where the owner is very gun friendly!! :)

Agent Orange
01-12-2011, 5:34 PM
itsa liability thing, set forth by more lawyers writing their prose in order to cover the arses of those employing them. Thats all. Just like comp insurance. All is done to keep the fat of the employer out of the litigious fire when shtf. get another job. If you wanna carry a gun at work, be a cop or join the Marines

This. Nearly every company's firearms policy I've looked into was traced back to insurance.

N6ATF
01-12-2011, 5:47 PM
Could fight lawyer with lawyer, have yours send a letter of intent that says something like:

"This firm represents one of your employees who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of termination. We are aware you have a victim disarmament policy, so that in the event of a criminal attack, your employees will be completely at the mercy of suffering violence up to and including death. In this event, our firm intends to sue you for wrongful death by intentional and complicit negligence, requesting $5 million in punitive damages for the families of each employee we represent that loses their life. To obviate such a lawsuit, you may wish to add life insurance for all your employees, or simply rescind your policy enabling criminals to act with impunity. Sincerely, Legal Eagle, LLC"

NorCalDustin
01-12-2011, 5:59 PM
Could fight lawyer with lawyer, have yours send a letter of intent that says something like:

"This firm represents one of your employees who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of termination. We are aware you have a victim disarmament policy, so that in the event of a criminal attack, your employees will be completely at the mercy of suffering violence up to and including death. In this event, our firm intends to sue you for wrongful death by intentional and complicit negligence, requesting $5 million in punitive damages for the families of each employee we represent that loses their life. To obviate such a lawsuit, you may wish to add life insurance for all your employees, or simply rescind your policy enabling criminals to act with impunity. Sincerely, Legal Eagle, LLC"
I LIKE your way of thinking.

kcbrown
01-12-2011, 6:10 PM
Could fight lawyer with lawyer, have yours send a letter of intent that says something like:

"This firm represents one of your employees who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of termination. We are aware you have a victim disarmament policy, so that in the event of a criminal attack, your employees will be completely at the mercy of suffering violence up to and including death. In this event, our firm intends to sue you for wrongful death by intentional and complicit negligence, requesting $5 million in punitive damages for the families of each employee we represent that loses their life. To obviate such a lawsuit, you may wish to add life insurance for all your employees, or simply rescind your policy enabling criminals to act with impunity. Sincerely, Legal Eagle, LLC"

Why give them the life insurance out?

Life insurance does me absolutely no good if I'm dead...

novabrian
01-12-2011, 6:12 PM
Just quit.

berto
01-12-2011, 6:39 PM
Don't ask, don't tell. You know what concealed means. The potential consequence of carrying might be termination. The potential consequence of not carrying might be extermination. Employment doesn't matter if you're dead.

N6ATF
01-12-2011, 6:43 PM
Why give them the life insurance out?

Life insurance does me absolutely no good if I'm dead...

Maintaining that level of life insurance (all employees, $5 million each) would be so much worse than simply dropping the VD and taking the practically non-existent risk to insure one (if that).

c good
01-12-2011, 6:45 PM
Don't ask. Don't tell. As long as you have your CCW, NO ONE ELSE!!!!....has to know. JMHO. c good

tommyid1
01-12-2011, 6:52 PM
Conceal it and they won't know. Just don't get caught if they don't like it

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Window_Seat
01-12-2011, 6:57 PM
Just quit.

:rolleyes:

For those who condone & encourage "no self defense" policies... Are you here for the purpose of condoning and encouraging "no self defense" policies, or are you here to help further the RTKABA? A person putting on a name tag & clocking in shouldn't mean their disarmament, especially if they have been trusted to do so by mother government.

Fortunately I work for a company that is based out of a state that has an employee protection act, and that act is very protective of employees, and interestingly, it does not once mention the word "employee".

HST, I work in an industry (trucking) that has this problem very much so because virtually every company in this industry has this kind of policy (including the one I work for). Fortunately (not for the employer), it can't be enforced. Unfortunately (for the employee carrying), the employer can (and always will) fabricate an excuse.

This is something that is going to have to be worked on legislatively for starters.

Erik.

Anti-Hero
01-12-2011, 7:53 PM
Only 5 mil? Some broad got 6 million for burning her tongue with hot coffee.

mrrsquared79
01-12-2011, 7:55 PM
Could fight lawyer with lawyer, have yours send a letter of intent that says something like:

"This firm represents one of your employees who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of termination. We are aware you have a victim disarmament policy, so that in the event of a criminal attack, your employees will be completely at the mercy of suffering violence up to and including death. In this event, our firm intends to sue you for wrongful death by intentional and complicit negligence, requesting $5 million in punitive damages for the families of each employee we represent that loses their life. To obviate such a lawsuit, you may wish to add life insurance for all your employees, or simply rescind your policy enabling criminals to act with impunity. Sincerely, Legal Eagle, LLC"

I LIKE this post soo much that I borrowed it and pasted it on my facebook page stating it is the best thing I've read all day! :43:

N6ATF
01-12-2011, 7:59 PM
/bows

Cokebottle
01-12-2011, 8:03 PM
You have 3 options in no particular order:
1.) Ignore the policy and accept the consequences if/when caught.
2.) Work with the employer to change the policy.
3.) Find another employer.
This.

Constitutional protections do not encompass private entities.

locosway
01-12-2011, 8:05 PM
My past two jobs had the same policy. Each time I asked HR if my EDC knife was considered a tool and they always said it was. So I'm allowed to carry my knife so long as other people don't feel threatened.

I don't think pepper spray is classified as a weapon, it's more of a defensive tool.


I'd try and work with them on it and see what you can come up with. They likely are worried about liability, and if this is the case you'll have to prove that they're either not liable, or that they're more liable by restricting such items.

I work in a data center at night with only two other people who work on the opposite side of the building. I'm always worried that someone is either going to attack us or rob us. I know there's no chance in hell the company would let me bring a firearm into work, but if I was able to get a CCW then I would make a formal request outlining my training, permits, and reasons as to why it would be beneficial to me and the company if I were to carry.

stitchnicklas
01-12-2011, 8:20 PM
my advice is:
1-shut up about it to current, former,future employees
2-get a auto safe for the gun
3-never bring it up at work that you ccw
4-a employer usually does not have a right to search a vehicle without consent,you have a right to refuse all you want.certain fields have a exemption,leo,bank,or????

loose lips cause problems....

JagerTroop
01-12-2011, 8:47 PM
How can an employer persuade you to let them search your personal property? They Can't... If you chose to carry concealed on your person then yes, someone might see it.

My place of employment has signs posted at ALL entrances, stating " Upon entering this facility, all persons imply concent to a search of their person and belongings." or something similar.

I've never been searched... I am known to be the resident "gun guy"... personally I think they are scared to search my truck :D they might not like what they find.

For the record, we are DOD subcontract company, so security is obviously going to be much more strict.

To the OP, I say: Out of sight, out of mind. What they don't know won't hurt them... but may save YOUR a** someday.

:)

shtr45acp
01-12-2011, 9:21 PM
Cokebottle has it right, esp the private entity part. No matter what your reasoning is, your "rights", even though constutitional, are restricted at work because you gave them up when you legally agreed to work there (you submitted to follow P&P in exchange for gainful employment). If, however, your employer has failed to provide a safe and secure workplace, you may have "rights" in this regard. Either way, you are screwed. You pull a gun on the bad guy at work and something goes boom, the fallout will be catastrophic- legally, financially, and morally. If you snitch off your employer for not providing a safe/secure workplace, you will be terminated. Either way, you loose. It's all about liability. Strictly my opinion, and I applaude you for comming here to Calguns in order to ferrett this out. Pls keep in mind that it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. Good luck.

oni.dori
01-12-2011, 9:47 PM
Is parking on their property mandatory? Is parking off of their property feasible? If so, I would say that a quasi-solution would be to park your vehicle off of their property, then keep your firearm in the vehicle when at work. That way, you are able to keep the firearm with you, but at the same time not be in violation of the company's policy.

Toorop
01-12-2011, 10:02 PM
Lots of good points and point of views here guys. Thank you for the amount of input. I have a pistol on my permit that is very easily concealed in an itp holster. Like many have said if I bring it up to them then they'll probably look at me in a different light. Fortunately being a member of management I have dealt with the Human Resources Deparment on many occasions and they're super anal about terminating anyone... meaning that if for some reason I decide to carry at work and someone notices then runs it up the flag pole they would more than likely just write me up for violating company policy. Then I would have to violate that policy two to three times more to be terminated depending on circumstance.

The retailer I work for is a nationwide retailer ran by a corporate office. It's also a family owned company. No stock holders, not public.

So, now just as before I asked of your opinions I'm still at the same conundrum... Carry and risk my job, or don't carry and risk my life...

Some other suggestions were to either open my own business, or find a different employer.
Both are excellent suggestions and those will come with time. My girlfriend is almost done with college. Our plan is once she graduates and starts with her career then we can work on what I'm going to do whether it's go back to school, or start my own business.

I also like the idea of the anonymous email. I plan on writing an email to corporate about this and inquiring about it specifically.

Well you are already risking your life since you are not carrying. By your logic, you should not be working until your CCW license has arrived. Then and only then should you start looking for work. Don't risk your life...

Crom
01-12-2011, 10:18 PM
I have plans to work through an attorney to shield my identity from my employer to achieve the same goal. I am seeking a waiver for licensed CCW individuals from the company policy prohibiting firearms but I only want to keep mine locked up in the vehicle while parked on company property. It is a reasonable request.

NorCalDustin
01-12-2011, 10:20 PM
I work in a data center at night with only two other people who work on the opposite side of the building. I'm always worried that someone is either going to attack us or rob us. I know there's no chance in hell the company would let me bring a firearm into work, but if I was able to get a CCW then I would make a formal request outlining my training, permits, and reasons as to why it would be beneficial to me and the company if I were to carry.

I've worked with some company's in IT that flat out encouraged certain personnel to obtain a CCW/Training and carry concealed at work. Check your company's policy's... Maybe you'll get lucky.

locosway
01-12-2011, 10:22 PM
I've worked with some company's in IT that flat out encouraged certain personnel to obtain a CCW/Training and carry concealed at work. Check your company's policy's... Maybe you'll get lucky.

Employee handbook says absolutely no weapons, and there's a sign at the entrance that lists prohibited items which includes firearms, and all persons are subject to search.

Maestro Pistolero
01-12-2011, 10:26 PM
Concealed means concealed. Make sure it stays that way. When I weigh my life against a company's policy or even a job, the scale tips fast and hard. Guess which direction?

DannyInSoCal
01-12-2011, 10:31 PM
Your life is more important than any job...

USMC VET
01-12-2011, 10:32 PM
I would make your concerns known to up your chain of command before carrying on site. If they neglect to fix your concern (ie. Security guard, etc) I would make it known you are a legal ccw carrier and would like to SECURE your firearm on site. Keep everything documented so if something does happen you can support your claim with proof of concern.

scarville
01-12-2011, 11:16 PM
Basically the insurance company figures the best way to serve the stockholders is to increase your risk. A no gun policy costs them nothing in terms of liability. Even if you are injured or worse as a result of a crime and you could find a lawyer to take the case the odds of you or your widow winning anything are very small.

OTOH, if you shoot a bad guy -- even if you are completely justified -- the insurance company could be on the hook for millions. It might even be that the no guns policy absolves them of any legal responsibility. I'm not sure if that would work in California

So don't ask, don't tell.

Don't ask management for permission.

Don't tell anyone on Calguns what you decide to do.

I'd also add that, if the S ever does HTF do not use your gun to defend anyone but yourself.

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Is parking on their property mandatory? Is parking off of their property feasible? If so, I would say that a quasi-solution would be to park your vehicle off of their property, then keep your firearm in the vehicle when at work. That way, you are able to keep the firearm with you, but at the same time not be in violation of the company's policy.

The company I work for to the best of my knowledge has leases it's buildings and does not own the property it's stores are on, so I'm not exactly sure how that even plays out. I would not risk parking my car too far away from line of sight out the front door since cars out in the dark areas often get broken into.

We have an Airborne National Guard Reservist that works at my store and everyone knows he keeps a shotgun in his trunk(he was vocal about it). I made sure to mention that it's against company policy and to keep it quiet(also that I never heard him say that). The problem is not on the store level. Our Store Manager is Retired ARMY, one of the other Assistants is Retired ARMY as well, so they may be more firearms friendly, but at the same time I doubt they would want to risk their jobs for me, or anyone else wanting to ccw.

Finding a job right now is far from the easiest thing to do. Believe me I have been looking... not much out there right now for working class people. For those of you suggesting this I would ask you to find a job for me since there apparently are far more jobs than people out there right now... especially with a place that allows ccw and pays well :rolleyes:

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 11:44 PM
Well you are already risking your life since you are not carrying. By your logic, you should not be working until your CCW license has arrived. Then and only then should you start looking for work. Don't risk your life...

:1eye:

Anchors
01-12-2011, 11:50 PM
Please excuse me because this is second hand information BUT from a reliable source.

My FFL I've been using for years has another customer in Sacramento country. This customer left a rifle in his car, in plain view, against company policy, because he was going to the range after work.

The employer saw the rifle, called the police out and had him escorted off the premises with his termination check in hand.

Later on that day there was a knock at the door.. it was the cops again.. with a restraining order in hand that the company had taken out against him because they were afraid he would go postal. They then seized all of his firearms.

That is the worst thing I have ever heard.
But I don't have to worry about it since I would never leave a gun in plain view (don't want it stolen!).

So, you afraid that somebody going to steal some items or even money? "By your company policy" - you just give them everything what they want and be safe. They want to rob - let them do that. Are you going to defend companies money... when they do not care about your life????

This is actually the official policy of any company I have worked for.
"Just let them take the money and whatever else they want".
Works for me. I will not put myself in harms way for an employer.

sounds like you need another job like scooping ice cream at baskin robbins where the owner is very gun friendly!! :)

Are they really?

My place of employment has signs posted at ALL entrances, stating " Upon entering this facility, all persons imply concent to a search of their person and belongings." or something similar.

I've never been searched... I am known to be the resident "gun guy"... personally I think they are scared to search my truck :D they might not like what they find.

For the record, we are DOD subcontract company, so security is obviously going to be much more strict.

To the OP, I say: Out of sight, out of mind. What they don't know won't hurt them... but may save YOUR a** someday.

:)

This is only because you have the DOD contract. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to force a search.

Employee handbook says absolutely no weapons, and there's a sign at the entrance that lists prohibited items which includes firearms, and all persons are subject to search.

Your employer can't search you unless they are a merchant and have reason to believe you are stealing (just as if you were a customer).
Everyone, both customers and employees, are subject to search of bags (both), jackets (employees only), and merchandise (both) upon exiting my store. But if they refuse (people rarely do), there is no legal recourse. We can't do anything about it at all.
I know this for a fact, because it is my job to search.

If the CEO of the company comes in (it has happened) we are even required to search his bag on the way out. We're a national retailer with international business that will be expanding outlets outside the U.S. soon. We are the largest company in our market in the country.
We can't, however, force him to open his bag.
Your bosses aren't cops (unless you are a cop), they can't do whatever they want.
They can certainly fire you for not complying though.

My company has a no weapons policy, but no one follows it.
Though I've never heard of anyone bringing a gun in, we have left them in our cars in the parking lot locked up.
I wouldn't mind having a CCW in the mornings sometimes when it is me, another manager, and $10,000-$40,000 cash.



I say carry it and keep it concealed. It should only come out when your life is in danger anyway.
I would gladly trade my job to keep my life.

pitchbaby
01-12-2011, 11:55 PM
Concealed is concealed... just sayin'... :whistling:

xounlistedxox
01-12-2011, 11:57 PM
Their playground, their rules. You have no rights (and shouldn't have) to tell them that they can't make these rules. Now, there have been cases in other states regarding the rules against storing your CCW weapon in your car on company property. Some courts have upheld this, and others have rejected it. The Libertarian in me is mixed on this since it creates a potential situation where it is impossible to legally carry before or after work.

Yes this also means that I would be unarmed for roughly 10 hours per day five days a week while in public at varying hours. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a ccw. Otherwise I'm typically not out and about too often. I'm a private person, so other than shopping and hitting my favorite stores I'm either home, or up in the mountains hiking/hunting.

Just today while on my way to work as I was locking up my place some obviously out of it guy started walking up to me quickly after I had already locked my door muttering something that I could not hear. He was like "hey man you want to buy a cell phone I just got out of the hospital and need some money" I said no I have a cell phone already no need for another. He proceeded on and on to tell me this and that and how he needed to get to Watt and Elkhorn etc. He was more and more agressive with each question and kept getting closer to me. Fortunately I told him that I was not willing to give him a ride or help out and that if he did not leave I would be calling the Sheriff. He got the point and left. I did have my edc knife, so I was not defenseless if he had a weapon, but it's things that happen like this a couple days a week everywhere you go that make you realize how valuable a ccw is to you and everyone else that should have one.

vincewarde
01-13-2011, 12:06 AM
I think it is going to take someone being killed in one of these phony "gun free zones" - followed by a large damage award by a jury to change the minds of insurance companies, employers and retailers. Then these clowns will be forced to either allow people to defend themselves or provide a truly gun free zone by setting up security checkpoints and screening everyone who goes in.

As far as I am concerned, from a moral point of view, the minute you disarm someone you assume responsibility for their safety.

Toorop
01-13-2011, 12:06 AM
Concealed means concealed. Make sure it stays that way. When I weigh my life against a company's policy or even a job, the scale tips fast and hard. Guess which direction?

Did you agree to follow the rules at work? If you are taking a paycheck and you break the rules then you are a liar. I guess honesty is not something you value? If possible and I was your boss, I would see you for fraud and get my money back.

xounlistedxox
01-13-2011, 7:02 AM
Did you agree to follow the rules at work? If you are taking a paycheck and you break the rules then you are a liar. I guess honesty is not something you value? If possible and I was your boss, I would see you for fraud and get my money back.

Yes why fight for any firearms. We should all just turn our firearms in to the government and trust them to protect us every second of the day right?

Noonanda
01-13-2011, 7:13 AM
My company has a policy and the wording of it is :
3. Unauthorized possession of dangerous or illegal firearms, weapons or explosives on company property or while on duty.

For me I see a loophole in the companies policy that I work for, mine says "Unauthorized", having a ccw makes you authorized. So unless they change policy I think I am okay. I also work for a very small company and they dont really care all that much as they know I have been in the process, but I still dont think I will let them know I am carrying.

you also have the "illegal firearms". as long as your pistol is legal in the state of california this should be null and void:D

locosway
01-13-2011, 7:18 AM
Did you agree to follow the rules at work? If you are taking a paycheck and you break the rules then you are a liar. I guess honesty is not something you value? If possible and I was your boss, I would see you for fraud and get my money back.

You get paid for the work you do, not the rules you follow. If I get paid $10 to move one case from room A to room B, what does me following policy Y have to do with anything if it's not directly related to moving cases from room A to B?

I've worked for many companies that did not care what you did, so long as the work was getting done. Then, I've also worked at companies that didn't care if the work got done, so long as you followed corporate rules.

You may think that someone is committing fraud simply because they didn't follow every rule in their employee handbook. So, because of this, I'm going to assume that you keep your handbook nearby and reference it whenever you're unsure of what company policy is, correct?

Life is a game, there's no clear cut answer to anything. What might be good for one person, might not be good for another. I've considered breaking company policy and bringing in a firearm, but I know if I were to lose my job it would adversely affect my family right now. So, I'm not taking a firearm to work. This is a choice I've made based on my life style, and I'd have it no other way.

Noonanda
01-13-2011, 7:43 AM
Did you agree to follow the rules at work? If you are taking a paycheck and you break the rules then you are a liar. I guess honesty is not something you value? If possible and I was your boss, I would see you for fraud and get my money back.

sorry to say it but this is possibly the most insane and misinformed post I have read in a while. So using your logic if the government ordered me to come to your house to confiscate your guns, well thats ok then because I took an oath to support and defend the consitution, and to follow the orders of those appointed over me. Dont want to "lie" or "go back on my oath". I am just following the rules at work and following an order.:TFH::rolleyes:

The sheeple farm called and said they want you to come home:confused:

DGoodale
01-13-2011, 9:27 AM
I checked my Employers Policy on this issue. I don't have the exact verbage with me, but it is basically this:

Employees are not allowed to carry any weapon on their person, or even in their vehicle. They specifically name firearms, knives, and pepper spray...

Ask that the policy be clarified to:

"Employees are not allowed to illegally carry"...

But as others have said, it's their playground and their rules.

RobG
01-13-2011, 9:59 AM
We had a guy fired close to a year ago for getting caught with his ccw. Basically he forgot about it, went on the streets, when he realized it he stashed his weapon in a personal bag. Unfortunately his partner saw the weapon and called the company. Upon return to the station he was immediately handcuffed by the local pd. When he informed him of his ccw status he was released and the pd left. He was subsequently fired on the spot and escorted off property. The company has a strict no weapons policy in which we all agree to upon accepting employment. He has no recourse per attorneys due to that fact.

Moral of this story: Do what you want but, if you ever use that weapon, expect to be thrown under the bus by your company. And be prepared to hire a good attorney.

Bugei
01-13-2011, 10:16 AM
You have 3 options in no particular order:
1.) Ignore the policy and accept the consequences if/when caught.
2.) Work with the employer to change the policy.
3.) Find another employer.

4) If anything bad happens, sue the employer.

Steve_338LM
01-13-2011, 10:36 AM
People need to consider the employer's perspective. If they openly allow a CCW holder to carry a firearm on their premises, they assume the liability if something happens, even if it was a justifiable shooting. It sounds like the OP's employer is a large family-owned company that doesn't want to assume the additional liability of an employee shooting someone while on their payroll and/or property (owned versus leased doesn't matter). Think of the liability if the OP goes off and kills a bunch of employees and/or customers.

Also, a CCW hardly implies that the individual is qualified to defend the company premises. This is why there are professional (I use that term loosely in some cases), licensed and bonded companies that provide security.

Management doesn't know the OP (or most other employees) and probably would not want to make an exception unless the circumstances (i.e., perceived risk) and qualifications were exceptional.

FWIW, my company allows employees to carry firearms, and actually enjoys seeing someone's new acquisition, like an AR-15 or 1911, on their desk.

RobG
01-13-2011, 10:47 AM
4) If anything bad happens, sue the employer.

Conversely, if anything bad happens when the employee pulls and uses the weapon, expect the company to do the same. If the employee does carry against co. policy and subsequently uses that weapon, I could see the co. washing their hands of the incident and placing the burden solely on the employee. It really is a bad situation to place yourself in.

Super Spy
01-13-2011, 10:57 AM
If the gun is locked in your car, and you don't say anything to anyone about it, what are the chances of it being an issue? Since getting a CCW is difficult in the Bay Area I carry pepper spray. Sometimes it's visible as it's on my keychain and maybe hanging out of my pocket. I got a few comments at first, one lady said "why do you need that?" I told her, then she asked where she could get some.

Arondos
01-13-2011, 12:12 PM
We have this same idiotic policy at work yet.

I have 4 different knives in my tools. One of which was company issued

I have screwdrivers I could stab with

I have hammers I can smash with

I can go get the high powered air rifle that gets used to take out birds and bats that get in the building

I have access to oxy-acetelyne that can make one heck of an explosion

But I better not bring and unauthorized "weapons" onto company property...

Tom Gresham
01-13-2011, 1:00 PM
http://smartcarry.com/

domino
01-13-2011, 1:14 PM
you also have the "illegal firearms". as long as your pistol is legal in the state of california this should be null and void:D

I copied and pasted that right out off the online employe policy handbook. I am fine, if you read it I am both authorized and they are legal. You are correct.

DemocracyEnaction
01-13-2011, 1:18 PM
Rules wont help you if you are dead...

Uriah02
01-13-2011, 1:19 PM
Then all the employer has to say is "Well Jim said he saw a pistol in your briefcase, prove there isn't one. Can't prove it's not there? You're fired".

Prove to me that this isn't recourse from X for me refusing their advances.

Uriah02
01-13-2011, 1:22 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but unless you park on company property they can't touch you. If that is the case, leave it in the car.

tabrisnet
01-13-2011, 1:47 PM
Even parking on company property isn't likely an issue, as long as it's locked in your trunk. Not that they might not be able to fire you for it... but they'd be highly unlikely to be find an excuse to search your car.

Anchors
01-13-2011, 3:06 PM
I think it is going to take someone being killed in one of these phony "gun free zones" - followed by a large damage award by a jury to change the minds of insurance companies, employers and retailers. Then these clowns will be forced to either allow people to defend themselves or provide a truly gun free zone by setting up security checkpoints and screening everyone who goes in.

As far as I am concerned, from a moral point of view, the minute you disarm someone you assume responsibility for their safety.

Even parking on company property isn't likely an issue, as long as it's locked in your trunk. Not that they might not be able to fire you for it... but they'd be highly unlikely to be find an excuse to search your car.

Like I said. Unless you are a government contractor, even if they can search your car as per company policy that you agreed to they still can't search it.

They can fire you. But your employer will never be allowed in any situation to force you to open your vehicle or even really search your person. No way. Not in a million years.
If they do, resist. If they continue, sue for physical harassment/assault.

Now if you are a DOD contractor like the other guy, then you are SOL because they are going to search you if they feel like it.