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View Full Version : Florida man will not be charged in self defense shooting


CalBear
01-12-2011, 11:49 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110112/ap_on_re_us/us_self_defense_shooting

Baker told police he reached for his gun when the teen punched him in the face. Baker has a concealed weapons permit.

The teen was hit four times in the chest, back and buttocks. He died at the scene.

Baconator
01-12-2011, 11:51 AM
I read this this morning and I thought to myself, if this was California and the guy had "hit four times in the chest, back and buttocks," someone would fry.

uyoga
01-12-2011, 11:56 AM
If the jogger had not been armed, he would be dead, and the cops would still be looking for a suspect - probably never to be found.

J.D.Allen
01-12-2011, 11:57 AM
This obviously is a crime and MUST have been perpetrated with a Glock 19 with super hi capacity bullet clips. :rolleyes:

mnh327
01-12-2011, 12:35 PM
Could this have happened in California?

Do we have a "stand your ground" law here?

Since normal people are not allowed to conceal carry here, would the outcome have been different if this jogger did not have a concealed carry license?

Any other comments?
__________________________________________________ ___________________
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110112/ap_on_re_us/us_self_defense_shooting

Fla. jogger won't be charged for shooting teen.

TAMPA, Fla. – A pistol-packing jogger in Florida won't be charged for shooting and killing a teenager who attacked him during a midnight run.

Prosecutors said Tuesday they are convinced Thomas Baker acted in self defense when he fired eight shots at 18-year-old Carlos Mustelier near Tampa in November .

Prosecutors say Florida's "stand-your-ground" law was a factor in their decision. The law, passed in 2005, gives people the right to use deadly force as long as they "reasonably believe" it is necessary to stop another person from hurting them.

Baker told police he reached for his gun when the teen punched him in the face. Baker has a concealed weapons permit.

The teen was hit four times in the chest, back and buttocks. He died at the scene.
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Baconator
01-12-2011, 12:42 PM
This obviously is a crime and MUST have been perpetrated with a Glock 19 with super hi capacity bullet clips. :rolleyes:

Glock- a gun designed only to hunt humans.:TFH:

CalBear
01-12-2011, 1:01 PM
Glock- a gun designed only to hunt humans.:TFH:
We're still paying the price for the years of pumping hunting as the primary purpose for needing guns. I'm glad that since Heller and McDonald that climate has really changed. It's like gun owners can finally come out of the closet and say "yes, I own guns for self defense!" :)

maddoggie13
01-12-2011, 1:03 PM
That is the way it should be everywhere...

infamous209
01-12-2011, 1:16 PM
the buttocks is the only shot that would have california in an uproar. Obviously he was trying to run away, poor guy, you killed him when he was coming to his senses. In my view guy got what he deserved.

J.D.Allen
01-12-2011, 1:50 PM
Could this have happened in California?

Do we have a "stand your ground" law here?

Since normal people are not allowed to conceal carry here, would the outcome have been different if this jogger did not have a concealed carry license?

Any other comments?


I can tell you that in CA, shooting an unaremd person will raise some eyebrows. Even if that person punched you in the face. The standard for justified SD shooting in CA is subjective. All the law says is that for it to be a justified shooting, you have to be in reasonable fear of imminent threat of death or GBI. Getting punched in the face by an unarmed 18 year old will not pass that threshold for many people in this state. Add in the fact that he was shot while trying to run away and...depends on the jury, but I think in most cases you're gonna get an all expense paid stay in the ol' greybar hotel.

I think most people here would just expect you to respond by punching back. Not shooting.

Gryff
01-12-2011, 2:16 PM
Bet it surprised the hell out of Mr. Mustelier. Hopefully he didn't die crying and wetting himself.

desertmedic
01-12-2011, 2:28 PM
Mr. Allen... How do we know he was trying to run away? Unfortunately, I have seen a person being shot. Its an ugly scene and I remember clearly the "bad guy" doing a crazy kind of dance as the bullets were impacting. I remember telling my partner afterwards one will do anything to twist away from the pain of being shot. How do we know this didnt happen to the perp in question. We can "what if" this all day long... Point being untill you speak with whitnesses/parties involved or saw it with your own eyes we'll never truly know what happened.

arsilva32
01-12-2011, 2:57 PM
what if the 18 yo was a fifth degree black-belt? i would say responding with lethal force would be prudent. if he feared for his life that would justify the 18 yo getting blasted.

1BigPea
01-12-2011, 3:12 PM
Getting punched in the face CAN and WILL cause great bodily harm in many cases. Especially someone trained in MMA or Boxing, or, 1 or 2 punches to someone not expecting it will be brutal, and if knocked out who knows what could happen.

Luckily this guy was not knocked unconscious by the 1st punch and was able to respond appropriately.

J.D.Allen
01-12-2011, 3:19 PM
All of these responses about a punch justifying fear of death or GBI are true. I agree with you. The problem is that it is up to the LEO's, the DA, and the jury to decide if your fear was real and reasonable (what a reasonable person would do under same or similar circumstances). You are not the one who gets to make that decision in the end. All I'm saying is that in this state full of sheeple that demonize guns every chance they get, I wouldn't want to be in front of a jury trying to justify shooting an unarmed 18 yr old kid for punching me in the face. Especially shooting him in the back. Maybe he wasn't running away, but the words "shot in the back" do not sound good.

Now, if you are truly in fear for your life or serious injury, then by all means, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 right? But I don't think your average 18 yr old kid punching me would really create that kind of fear in me. I think I would probably run first if I could. Or fight back, but when I'm carrying I would be reluctant to engage in a physical altercation. Don't want the BG to end up with my weapon.

SScott
01-12-2011, 3:22 PM
Even if the guy isn't charged he's still open to a wrongful death suit and other legal headaches.
In CA he would be in prison right now on a manslaughter charge at minimum.

1BigPea
01-12-2011, 3:27 PM
Even if the guy isn't charged he's still open to a wrongful death suit and other legal headaches.
In CA he would be in prison right now on a manslaughter charge at minimum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but FL Castle Doctrine protects against civil lawsuits.

California's does not...

GaryV
01-12-2011, 3:28 PM
Even if the guy isn't charged he's still open to a wrongful death suit and other legal headaches.
In CA he would be in prison right now on a manslaughter charge at minimum.

No, he's not. Part of Florida's law is that once the shooting is ruled self-defense, the person is immune from all criminal and civil prosecution.

stormy_clothing
01-12-2011, 3:32 PM
hopefully he hit the guy in the back and butt as he was falling and not trying to run away, if so good, bye!

Legasat
01-12-2011, 3:50 PM
Shots to chest..at least you have an argument.

Shots to the back and butt will get you tossed into the klink for sure.

SScott
01-12-2011, 3:53 PM
No, he's not. Part of Florida's law is that once the shooting is ruled self-defense, the person is immune from all criminal and civil prosecution.

On man this makes me hate Kalifornia even more!

Agent Orange
01-12-2011, 4:55 PM
I know it's apples to oranges but:


Man Found Guilty in Marijuana Theft Shooting Case

A Fresno County jury has found 47-year-old Phayvanh Dydouangphan guilty of voluntary manslaughter in a shooting that killed a Fresno County man. Investigators said when Dydouangphan went outside, he saw five people attempting to steal marijuana plants from his backyard. Police said Dydouangphan had 188 plants growing in his backyard, all of which police said were legal since the home's four occupants were operating a medical marijuana collective.

http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=13825537

Gryff
01-12-2011, 4:59 PM
what if the 18 yo was a fifth degree black-belt?

Or moderately trained in MMA (which is not unlikely)? Some of those holds can cause uber damage to you.

N6ATF
01-12-2011, 5:03 PM
I know it's apples to oranges but:


Man Found Guilty in Marijuana Theft Shooting Case

A Fresno County jury has found 47-year-old Phayvanh Dydouangphan guilty of voluntary manslaughter in a shooting that killed a Fresno County man. Investigators said when Dydouangphan went outside, he saw five people attempting to steal marijuana plants from his backyard. Police said Dydouangphan had 188 plants growing in his backyard, all of which police said were legal since the home's four occupants were operating a medical marijuana collective.

http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=13825537

Just from the excerpt, I probably would have nullified. MMJ collectives are easy targets for violent drug dealers to stock up at.

doctor_vals
01-12-2011, 5:10 PM
Mr. Allen... How do we know he was trying to run away?

Maybe because he was hit in his back and buttocks...

Oh, and he didn't have a gun????

In our state that jogger will be in custody, no doubt.

Burbur
01-12-2011, 8:31 PM
I have watched many officer involved shootings, the one thing they have in common with this case is: they didn't stop firing when the suspect spun or jerked. Getting shot in the back and ***** doesn't mean a damn thing, except to an anti District Attorney in CA.

"That’s all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more,”
-Sheriff Grady Judd

ScottyBear
01-13-2011, 1:21 AM
I doubt that the end result would be of been similar if this happened in California. Especially since California is so politically charged; if this was a white man killing a minority there would be a big uproar.

J.D.Allen
01-13-2011, 10:31 AM
I know it's apples to oranges but:


Man Found Guilty in Marijuana Theft Shooting Case

A Fresno County jury has found 47-year-old Phayvanh Dydouangphan guilty of voluntary manslaughter in a shooting that killed a Fresno County man. Investigators said when Dydouangphan went outside, he saw five people attempting to steal marijuana plants from his backyard. Police said Dydouangphan had 188 plants growing in his backyard, all of which police said were legal since the home's four occupants were operating a medical marijuana collective.

http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=13825537

Right. CA justifies defending lives with deadly force. Not property. In other states they wouldn't even have arrested this guy. But then again in other states they would throw the book at him for having 188 MJ plants...

magsnubby
01-13-2011, 11:23 AM
I know it's apples to oranges but:


Man Found Guilty in Marijuana Theft Shooting Case

A Fresno County jury has found 47-year-old Phayvanh Dydouangphan guilty of voluntary manslaughter in a shooting that killed a Fresno County man. Investigators said when Dydouangphan went outside, he saw five people attempting to steal marijuana plants from his backyard. Police said Dydouangphan had 188 plants growing in his backyard, all of which police said were legal since the home's four occupants were operating a medical marijuana collective.

http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=13825537

This case has nothing to do with self defense. They were not on his property when the shooting occurred. They did not threaten his life. They ran away when confronted. They were in their truck on a public road not on his private property. They had no weapons and were attempting to drive away. He shot and unarmed man through the windshield of the truck that was on a public road.

wellerjohn
01-13-2011, 1:19 PM
what if the 18 yo was a fifth degree black-belt? i would say responding with lethal force would be prudent. if he feared for his life that would justify the 18 yo getting blasted.

5th degree by 18? Now that would be a real badass:rolleyes:

tozan
01-13-2011, 1:31 PM
I still love my home state.. and my Fl CCW

I like where it states a a good enough reason is to stop somone from hurting them not rear for your life...

Paul S
01-13-2011, 3:10 PM
"...The teen was hit four times in the chest, back and buttocks...."

Bad syntax? or was the bugger nailed 12 times? Either way...good job by the victim in prevailing over the stooge.

Knauga
01-13-2011, 8:02 PM
If somebody out of the blue comes up and starts assaulting you for no apparent reason, a reasonable person could be in fear for their life or of GBI. I think the outcome of the case would rely very heavily on where in the state it happened, but most areas would rule it as self defense. People like to make a lot of generalizations about our state, but either way, if I had somebody assaulting me I too might feel compelled to use deadly force in my defense. More than likely the criminal was turning away from the victim as he was being shot resulting in him being struck in the back and buttocks.

uyoga
01-13-2011, 10:56 PM
. . . . and the jogger won't be sued in civil court, either . . . . .