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NapaPlinker
01-11-2011, 6:27 PM
What really justifies one? If my father gifts me a recently bought handgun, I fill out intra-familiar transfer papers is that one? I don't believe it is. At TRAP the guys are awesome and told me about this way to obtain a handgun since Im under 21. But at an un-named shop i was told that there is no way ANYONE under 21 can legally own a handgun. I told him yeah i can transfer one into my name if given to me by my father, they said nope straw purchase! I said it wasn't they said it was I left.

Cokebottle
01-11-2011, 6:30 PM
It's illegal for them to sell you a gun if you're under 21, but it is perfectly legal for your father to give you a handgun, and it is perfectly legal for him to purchase a new gun with the intent of giving it to you.

A "straw purchase" is primarily when a gun is purchased with the intent of performing an illegal transfer (not involving an FFL) to someone who is prohibited from owning a firearm.

fiddletown
01-11-2011, 7:40 PM
...A "straw purchase" is primarily when a gun is purchased with the intent of performing an illegal transfer (not involving an FFL) to someone who is prohibited from owning a firearm.Nope, that's not what the ATF says. See http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf, page 165:

"...the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, ... The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. ... It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form...."(emphasis added)

On the other hand --

"...Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances...." (http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf, page 165)

OleCuss
01-11-2011, 7:50 PM
Does the OP need to have a Handgun Safety Certificate in order to receive the handgun?

the_quark
01-11-2011, 7:57 PM
Does the OP need to have a Handgun Safety Certificate in order to receive the handgun?

Yes. Technically speaking you need an HSC to "receive" a handgun per 12801 (b)(1). Some (ignorant) dealers will refuse to allow someone under 21 to acquire an HSC, but there's no requirement you be 21 to receive one.

Bottom line: If you pay your Dad to buy it for you, it's a straw purchase. If he buys it with the intent of giving it to you as a gift, it's fine.

NapaPlinker
01-11-2011, 8:15 PM
Yes. Technically speaking you need an HSC to "receive" a handgun per 12801 (b)(1). Some (ignorant) dealers will refuse to allow someone under 21 to acquire an HSC, but there's no requirement you be 21 to receive one.

Bottom line: If you pay your Dad to buy it for you, it's a straw purchase. If he buys it with the intent of giving it to you as a gift, it's fine.

Thats exactly what i thought. I was looking for a late christmas gift from him. lol

707electrician
01-11-2011, 8:16 PM
What if I lend my buddy $500 and he pays me back with a brand new glock:D

NapaPlinker
01-11-2011, 8:16 PM
Just making sure. I hate fud. Plus the guy i talked to was wearing paintball gear haha.

dantodd
01-11-2011, 8:21 PM
Nothing prevents dad from selling you a handgun either.

jtmkinsd
01-11-2011, 8:21 PM
Scenario: Dad and son are both CA residents. Dad purchases a handgun. After taking possession of the handgun, he immediately decides he doesn't like it. His 18 year old son has an HSC card so he hands the gun to his son and says "enjoy my boy!" Son fills out the Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mails it to DOJ with $19.

PERFECTLY LEGAL

the_quark
01-11-2011, 8:26 PM
Also, I'll note, hypothetically, if he had an old pistol he didn't want anymore, he could clearly sell that to you, and then use the money to buy a new one for himself.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-11-2011, 10:12 PM
Nothing prevents dad from selling you a handgun either.

Also, I'll note, hypothetically, if he had an old pistol he didn't want anymore, he could clearly sell that to you, and then use the money to buy a new one for himself.

I don't think you guys are correct about the "selling" thing.

CPC §12072(3)(A) says that "No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an individual under 21 years of age."

There is an exception to this for transfers spelled out in §12078(p), but none of those involve selling handguns to people under the age of 21.

In order to have your 18 year old child own a handgun you need to get it to them in a way that doesn't violate 12072(3)(A). The only way to do this is by not selling it to them. Then you can use the 12078(c)(2) "family" transfer.

Once your child is 21 years old you can go ahead and sell them handguns without an FFL by using the above 12078(c)(2) "family" exemption. Since they are not under 21 you don't have to worry about the 12072(3)(A) prohibition on selling handguns to people under 21.

NapaPlinker
01-12-2011, 1:11 PM
It ticks me off when you say one thing and the guys just say your wrong. Im never doing business there just looking around. Way to over priced!

CSACANNONEER
01-12-2011, 1:18 PM
I would stop going to the shop that doesn't understand gun laws. Although FFLs do not get involved in interfamiluar transfers, they should know what a straw sale is. Buying a gun to give as a gift is NOT a straw sale. If it was, there would not be a question about on the Federal 4473 about giving a gun as a gift. Any FFL should be aware of what is on a 4473 and why it is there.

dantodd
01-12-2011, 1:35 PM
I don't think you guys are correct about the "selling" thing.

CPC §12072(3)(A) says that "No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an individual under 21 years of age."

There is an exception to this for transfers spelled out in §12078(p), but none of those involve selling handguns to people under the age of 21.


Read 12078(p)(4) it is pretty clear.

It was clear and I clearly failed when I read that section.

Vanilla Gorilla
01-12-2011, 3:10 PM
It's illegal for them to sell you a gun if you're under 21, but it is perfectly legal for your father to give you a handgun, and it is perfectly legal for him to purchase a new gun with the intent of giving it to you.

A "straw purchase" is primarily when a gun is purchased with the intent of performing an illegal transfer (not involving an FFL) to someone who is prohibited from owning a firearm.

:iagree:
what he said

MasterYong
01-12-2011, 3:35 PM
The OPs scenario IS a straw-purchase because it's a purchase that's technically for another person.

If you'd never posted about it online, however, and your dad just bought a handgun, decided he didn't like it, and gifted it to you later THEN you'd be legal. But, since you flat-out stated your dad's intention would be to buy the gun for you and not himself then it's illegal.

Aren't convoluted laws fun?

dantodd
01-12-2011, 3:44 PM
There is no reason his dad can't buy him, or anyone else, a gun as a gift. There is no requirement that the gun being given must be unwanted

707electrician
01-12-2011, 4:00 PM
The OPs scenario IS a straw-purchase because it's a purchase that's technically for another person.

If you'd never posted about it online, however, and your dad just bought a handgun, decided he didn't like it, and gifted it to you later THEN you'd be legal. But, since you flat-out stated your dad's intention would be to buy the gun for you and not himself then it's illegal.

Aren't convoluted laws fun?

The gun is being given to the OP as a gift from his father, this is perfectly legal

BoxesOfLiberty
01-12-2011, 4:51 PM
I don't think you guys are correct about the "selling" thing.

CPC §12072(3)(A) says that "No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an individual under 21 years of age."

There is an exception to this for transfers spelled out in §12078(p), but none of those involve selling handguns to people under the age of 21.

In order to have your 18 year old child own a handgun you need to get it to them in a way that doesn't violate 12072(3)(A). The only way to do this is by not selling it to them. Then you can use the 12078(c)(2) "family" transfer.

Once your child is 21 years old you can go ahead and sell them handguns without an FFL by using the above 12078(c)(2) "family" exemption. Since they are not under 21 you don't have to worry about the 12072(3)(A) prohibition on selling handguns to people under 21.

I was at a local police supply over the weekend and saw someone denied a purchase because he told the clerk it was for (20-year-old) son.

Years ago, I went through a CA police academy -- there were three cadets (myself included) in my class who were not yet 21 (I believe one was sworn while he was still 20). We all had firearms.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-12-2011, 5:56 PM
Read 12078(p)(4) it is pretty clear.



Note that a sale is a form of transfer and 12072(3)(A) says that ANY of the 12078(p) exemptions would be valid.

12078(p)(4) talks about transferring a long gun to a minor. We aren't talking about that in this thread. We are talking about transferring a handgun to an adult who is under the age of 21. None of the 12078(p) exemptions cover that.


ETA: It would be REALLY interesting to know if an FFL could transfer a handgun from his books to his daughter who is 18+ but not yet 21.

Both Federal and California law prohibit FFLs from transferring handguns from their inventory to a person under the age of 21.

Cokebottle
01-12-2011, 6:55 PM
The OPs scenario IS a straw-purchase because it's a purchase that's technically for another person.
It's not a straw purchase and it's not illegal.

The BATFE specifically allows guns to be purchased for others as GIFTS.

As indicated above, the 4473 must be completed truthfully.
"Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?"
Yes.
Purchasing it with the intent to give it to someone else does not change the fact that it is your money and you are in fact the actual purchaser.

dantodd
01-12-2011, 7:59 PM
In order to have your 18 year old child own a handgun you need to get it to them in a way that doesn't violate 12072(3)(A). The only way to do this is by not selling it to them. Then you can use the 12078(c)(2) "family" transfer.


I was wrong above and will edit the post to reflect that.

I was just looking at 12078(c)(2) and I don't see where it precludes sale as a method of transfer.

(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a basic firearms safety certificate. If taking possession on or after January 1, 2003, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

NapaPlinker
01-13-2011, 12:49 AM
The OPs scenario IS a straw-purchase because it's a purchase that's technically for another person.

If you'd never posted about it online, however, and your dad just bought a handgun, decided he didn't like it, and gifted it to you later THEN you'd be legal. But, since you flat-out stated your dad's intention would be to buy the gun for you and not himself then it's illegal.

Aren't convoluted laws fun?

Sound like the guy at the gun shop!

CSACANNONEER
01-13-2011, 5:39 AM
The OPs scenario IS a straw-purchase because it's a purchase that's technically for another person.

If you'd never posted about it online, however, and your dad just bought a handgun, decided he didn't like it, and gifted it to you later THEN you'd be legal. But, since you flat-out stated your dad's intention would be to buy the gun for you and not himself then it's illegal.

Aren't convoluted laws fun?

As Cokebottle pointed out, you are incorrect. It would not be a straw sale. Why don't you read a 4473 sometime? Then, call ATF&E (not CA DOJ) and ask them.

I was at a local police supply over the weekend and saw someone denied a purchase because he told the clerk it was for (20-year-old) son.

Years ago, I went through a CA police academy -- there were three cadets (myself included) in my class who were not yet 21 (I believe one was sworn while he was still 20). We all had firearms.

The shop can refuse to do the transfer for ANY reason they want to. But, it would not have been an illegal sale.

Years ago, my cousin had graduated from a 4 year university and then, a police academy before she was 21. I often wondered how she could go into a bar to answer a call.

hoffmang
01-13-2011, 7:50 PM
How about we listen to the United States Attorney opine that it's not a straw purchase here: http://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.txnd.199403/gov.uscourts.txnd.199403.21.1.pdf

-Gene

Munk
01-14-2011, 12:42 AM
Good stuff all around. I really wish more FFLs learned the law and stopped spouting FUD.. but then we'd have nobody to make fun of.:p

The person providing the money is the "purchaser".

If the money is provided by the gift giver so as to get a gift for the other guy it's good.

If the gift recipient provides the money, it's bad.

Then there's the buying on behalf of a restricted person... very bad.