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View Full Version : Can a firearm be considered 'metal knuckles'?


AJAX22
01-10-2011, 7:51 PM
If 'metal knuckles' are a component part of a firearms receiver, do they still violate California law?

the concept that prompted this question can be found here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5594228&posted=1#post5594228

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/knucklecolt3.jpg

cineski
01-10-2011, 8:04 PM
That would be considered knuckles because if you take the gun away, they are still knuckles.

CAL.BAR
01-10-2011, 8:05 PM
Yes!. Absolutley anything can be held to be metal knuckels. Including the center shaft a bicycle pedal, the handle of a tool box, and a leather wallet with spikes on it. All of these have been specifically held by courts to be "metal knuckles".

WoodTurner
01-10-2011, 8:05 PM
Looks like an anti-drop grip to me. Must be a safety feature. :p
Not too sure on the real answer, kinda intersting.

Bobula
01-10-2011, 8:09 PM
Sure. Make a glock like that. No metal. Muwahaha

AJAX22
01-10-2011, 9:14 PM
Polymer knuckles are against the rules too

GrizzlyGuy
01-10-2011, 9:22 PM
From 12020 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html):

(7) As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device or
instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for
purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either
protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the
force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving
the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the hand
or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of projections
or studs which would contact the individual receiving a blow.

I say no since you don't "wear" a gun "in or on the hand". You carry (not wear) a gun, and you rarely ever carry it in your hand for fear of being accused of brandishing.

longarmshortlegs
01-10-2011, 9:56 PM
Yes!. Absolutley anything can be held to be metal knuckels. Including the center shaft a bicycle pedal, the handle of a tool box, and a leather wallet with spikes on it. All of these have been specifically held by courts to be "metal knuckles".

Check out People v. David V. Here is the opinion of CA Supreme Court (I don't have access everything).

http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/re-david-v-33821

A cylindrical object like the footrest in this case is not a device “worn . . . in or on the hand,” under the definition of “metal knuckles” provided in Penal Code section 12020, subdivision (c)(7).

You can read the whole thing, it's pretty interesting and still leaves questions about what is and what is not considered "knuckles". I guess if the challenge is not made in court, then anything can be considered.

PsychGuy274
01-10-2011, 10:03 PM
That's the most awesome thing I think I have ever seen.

Dreaded Claymore
01-10-2011, 10:22 PM
Photoshoop is almost as good as a 3D printer for rapid prototyping. Did you do this? If so, nice work!

(spelling intentional, imma chargin ma lazer)

Bhobbs
01-10-2011, 10:37 PM
As long as you don't cut up a GI 1911 and it is legal it might be kind of interesting.

pitchbaby
01-10-2011, 10:47 PM
If 'metal knuckles' are a component part of a firearms receiver, do they still violate California law?

the concept that prompted this question can be found here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5594228&posted=1#post5594228

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/knucklecolt3.jpg

I Likey!

I am sure Kalifornia has a way to deem that evil.

alex00
01-10-2011, 10:48 PM
I'm leaning toward no, they are not metal knuckles. I think charging the metal knuckles section would open a can of worms that could result in rifles being charged as clubs. It would become a vehicle to charge normal misdemeanor gun possession into felony weapon possession. It's a great looking idea that has a real trench warfare flare to it.

Dead*Reckoned
01-10-2011, 10:51 PM
Like this?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=81467&d=1294728640

AJAX22
01-11-2011, 9:37 AM
If it was considered to be metal knuckles, how would one go about getting a permit for such things? Are they even issued?

xenophobe
01-11-2011, 11:23 AM
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/knucklecolt3.jpg

That...

... is actually kind of clever.

Merc1138
01-11-2011, 12:07 PM
Looks like an anti-drop grip to me. Must be a safety feature. :p
Not too sure on the real answer, kinda intersting.

I'm sure the french would find a way to drop it.

motorhead
01-11-2011, 12:30 PM
legally, i think the worms would be out of the can. it's evil beauty is an ADA's wet dream.

xrMike
01-11-2011, 1:57 PM
If loaded, you better have the safety on before you try to punch with it, unless you want an ND... :D

Turo
01-11-2011, 2:21 PM
That's the worst photochop i've ever seen.

Then again, that thing looks cool.

ke6guj
01-11-2011, 2:23 PM
If it was considered to be metal knuckles, how would one go about getting a permit for such things? Are they even issued?look in 12020 for any exemptions. The only one I can think of off hand would be if the handgun was a registered AOW. So, smoothbore or VFG and it would be legal.

AJAX22
01-11-2011, 2:52 PM
(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. Any person prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms or ammunition who obtains title to these items by bequest or intestate succession may retain title for not more than one year, but actual possession of these items at any time is punishable pursuant to Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. Within the year, the person shall transfer title to the firearms or ammunition by sale, gift, or other disposition. Any person who violates this paragraph is in violation of subdivision (a).

My read of the above exemption is that it wouldn't apply to c&r firearms... So a cheap stripped 50 year old 1911 frame might be adaptable..

ke6guj
01-11-2011, 2:54 PM
could be. but then you get to deal with that moving target of what is and isn't a C&R when it has been modified from its original configuration.

AJAX22
01-11-2011, 3:05 PM
If it is c&r by virtue of age, modification shouldn't alter it's eligibility for c&r status.

ke6guj
01-11-2011, 3:10 PM
If it is c&r by virtue of age, modification shouldn't alter it's eligibility for c&r status.

you would think so, but ATF has ruled that Sporterized .mil Mausers aren't C&R anymore, because they aren't in their "original configuration" anymore. Based on that ruling (which dealt iwth just foreign military firearms), they have tried to extend that to domestic firearms as well.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-85-10.pdf

AJAX22
01-11-2011, 5:31 PM
Photoshoop is almost as good as a 3D printer for rapid prototyping. Did you do this? If so, nice work!

(spelling intentional, imma chargin ma lazer)

Yes I did this myself, I just did it on MS paint... (I don't have photoshop)


I suppose I could get approval from the BATFE to certify that the mod would not void C&R status..... then I could just run with it in CA...

But it might just be easier to paper it as an unconventional pistol/AOW with a smooth bore... (that exemption seems to be more clearly defined anyway)

the_quark
01-11-2011, 6:01 PM
Yes I did this myself, I just did it on MS paint... (I don't have photoshop)


That's actually pretty awesome for Paint.

AJAX22
01-11-2011, 6:06 PM
That's actually pretty awesome for Paint.

Thanks, (praise from caesar!)

I could have polished the background grips and blended the seams a bit more, but I'd already wasted one afternoon on it and I really wanted to share the idea... (the concept was more important than the execution)

the_quark
01-11-2011, 6:10 PM
Thanks, (praise from caesar!)


And, thanks for the promotion! ;)