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View Full Version : CRPA supports mail order ammo ban (AB 1714)!


Dont Tread on Me
08-09-2006, 9:24 PM
I just read my August 2006 issue of the CRPA "Firing Line". They have removed their objection to the bill! I just wrote to cancel my membership.

I quote from the Legislative Watch on page 2:

"... an agreement has been reached with the author of AB 2714. .. to amend the bill to impact only retail sales transaction involving shipping to the purchaser via a common or contract carrier (UPS, FedEx, etc.)"

"... new amendments to the bill would likely be very effective in preventing the Internet and mail order sales to persons who are under the legal age for buying ammunition."

".. parallel the current law for the delivery of alcoholic beverages that have been purchased via the internet or mail order.... In this form the, CRPA and others that were originally in opposition to the bill have removed their objections"

NRAhighpowershooter
08-09-2006, 9:33 PM
Most on-line ammo ordering sites require a valid DL either faxed, scaned and e-mailed or snail mailed to them before they process the order....This bill, in my opinion, is just a feel good bill.....

Mssr. Eleganté
08-09-2006, 10:09 PM
Does anybody here know how the CRPA is set up organizationally? I'm a life member, but don't recall ever getting sent any material to vote for a board of directors or anything like that.

I kind of want to call CRPA an tell them to remove me from their rolls over this mail order ammo thing. The Firing Line newsletter seems to be full of more and more stories about illegal aliens spreading disease and stealing our jobs. Some of you fellow shooters may feel strongly about the immigration issue, but I don't think the CRPA newsletter is the appropriate place to discuss it. They also print a lot of those BS internet statistics and rumors that are circulated by email as fact. It's turning into a bad "zine".

But if the CRPA has elections of some kind, then maybe we can try and take the organization over. We have enough people here to do it. I am not happy with everything the NRA does, but I decided to stick with the NRA and join the fight to make it a more hard-core pro-gun group. Is there any way for us to do the same thing with the CRPA or is it run by some guy out of his house in Fullerton?

Dont Tread on Me
08-10-2006, 6:22 AM
I've got insights into the CRPA's plan but I just don't like a gun rights group saying that they've worked a compromise on a stupid gun control law and we should be happy. They are either inexperienced or misguided.

There was a ballot on the back of this month's firing line but no information on the candidates. I like your idea of joining and changing it from the inside. I'm trying that with the NRA in CA.

Talkin2u2
08-10-2006, 6:46 AM
Does anybody here know how the CRPA is set up organizationally? I'm a life member, but don't recall ever getting sent any material to vote for a board of directors or anything like that.

I kind of want to call CRPA an tell them to remove me from their rolls over this mail order ammo thing. The Firing Line newsletter seems to be full of more and more stories about illegal aliens spreading disease and stealing our jobs. Some of you fellow shooters may feel strongly about the immigration issue, but I don't think the CRPA newsletter is the appropriate place to discuss it. They also print a lot of those BS internet statistics and rumors that are circulated by email as fact. It's turning into a bad "zine".

But if the CRPA has elections of some kind, then maybe we can try and take the organization over. We have enough people here to do it. I am not happy with everything the NRA does, but I decided to stick with the NRA and join the fight to make it a more hard-core pro-gun group. Is there any way for us to do the same thing with the CRPA or is it run by some guy out of his house in Fullerton?


After my last run-in with them, I looked into this. I am sad to say that MEMBERS HAVE NO REAL VOICE IN CRPA! You can only vote for some shooting committee positions, but you cannot even vote for the Directors. The Executive Council of the Board of Directors appoints/elects the Directors and then they are appointed by those Directors. I am also told that the Directors are some kind of "advisory" position and the Executive Council has the final say over all decisions. My source of information on CRPA is a former Director, who quit over what he said was "serious irregularities", so I believe this to be accurate information.

I know that within the NRA, members can vote on each member of the Board of Directors. There is a membership requirement that the member is a life member or has been a member for a number of years. Sorry I forgot how many.

Ricki Stevens
Sacramento, California

6172crew
08-10-2006, 8:02 AM
I wrote them back in 2002 telling them I wanted to help out, never heard back from them.:confused:

Talkin2u2
08-10-2006, 8:05 AM
I wrote them back in 2002 telling them I wanted to help out, never heard back from them.:confused:


I'de bet the NRA would accept your offer to "help out".

R S
Sac, CA

mikehaas
08-10-2006, 8:14 AM
I have a good friend who was on the board of CRPA and is also an NRA MC president, works with me on http://ProjectBoreSnake.org/ - a really good guy.

He identified a bunch of problems within the organization and as soon as he tried to get other board members to address them, he was promptly FIRED. They are figureheads, useful to run shooting programs but have ZERO say in how the place is run. My understanding it's a one-man show - only one person makes the decisions at CRPA, has been doing so for decades (and he's not very good at it.) But he keeps that board in line, boy!

As was stated, there are no board elections at CRPA. Who do you think they are, NRA?

Oh, and their preferred method of communication with their members is a MAGAZINE with a 2 month lag time. Guess they never heard of email or the electric telephone. Then again, maybe their members should try the telegraph and Morse code. Smoke signals?

Mike

chris
08-10-2006, 9:04 AM
it sounds like it was a good idea for me to let my membership lapse since i have been gone. i think i'll renew my NRA membership when i get home or at the next gun show at the OC fairgrounds. anyone know when the next one is?

mikehaas
08-10-2006, 9:48 AM
I wrote them back in 2002 telling them I wanted to help out, never heard back from them.:confused:
I once inquired too, over their phone number. To be honest, as a Members' Council officer, I was curious. The secretary's answer was "donate". Hmm.

So I prodded a bit, asked if there were any kinds of meetings or other things the average gun-owner could actually do (http://calnra.com/volunteer/) - "get more involved" stuff. The answer was "I guess you could submit a resume for the board".

Between donating and running for the board, CRPA has no use for you (and I suspect only one of those is actually doable!)

Oh, I guess you could also buy a banquet ticket too! And donate more. Anyone see a trend here?

Mike

just4fun63
08-10-2006, 6:51 PM
I keep my membership so I can buy from CMP. :cool: no other good reason:mad: I have never seen the bylaws but don't the coorperate bylaws have to be filed with the Sec of State?

Dont Tread on Me
08-10-2006, 6:59 PM
Does NRA membership meet the CMP requirments? It cannot be to hard to prove you are into shooting if you are into shooting.

grammaton76
08-10-2006, 8:07 PM
Does NRA membership meet the CMP requirments? It cannot be to hard to prove you are into shooting if you are into shooting.

Already tried that route, no dice. Your only other option is to call up a number of loosely organized shooting clubs recognized by the CMP, and none of the ones in the local area (when I lived in oceanside) would return my calls or emails.

Creeping Incrementalism
08-10-2006, 9:07 PM
GOC says it may cease opposition too!?


The amendments will change the language of the bill and the direction of the bill as well, from being a harassment to both mail order and internet sales businesses and will place the focus on the purchaser solely. We believe that this is not a compromise but a good idea that makes sense and would actually be of benefit to law-abiding gun owners adding security to their deliveries. The amendments would delete the requirement for additional ID checks by retail dealers.



GOC will continue to watch this bill closely as it enters the Senate, to make sure the author is good to his word. When the language of AB 2714 is changed, GOC will cease its opposition.

http://www.gunownersca.com/leg/display/?id=27

Mssr. Eleganté
08-10-2006, 9:19 PM
This could be a case of California ammo retailers that support restrictions on mail order ammo from out of state making their voices heard with CRPA and GOC.

The same kind of thing happened with the Gun Control Act of 1968. One of the things the Act did was ban the importation of military surplus firearms. While the NRA didn't really support this ban, all of the American firearms manufacturers did support it because they were tired of competing against all of the cheap surplus guns flooding the market.

Sometimes it's hard for pro-gun groups to fight a bad law when the bad law is supported by powerful and vocal segments of the gun community.

Talkin2u2
08-10-2006, 10:00 PM
GOC says it may cease opposition too!?




http://www.gunownersca.com/leg/display/?id=27


If you wonder why they would do this, look here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=347650&postcount=28

Dont Tread on Me
08-11-2006, 5:38 AM
I'm not following the amendment. Will it allow the mail order of ammo provided the FedEx or UPS driver checks the ID of the recipient?

I don't see any attempt by my local stores to compete with mail order prices! I

donger
08-11-2006, 8:08 AM
Quite damning if you ask me. I'm gonna have to let my membership laspe...

Gregas
08-11-2006, 8:51 AM
I keep my membership so I can buy from CMP. :cool: no other good reason:mad:

Join the Garand Collector's Association. Then you can quit the CRPA and still buy from CMP. Or join a local high-power shooting club w/ CMP affiliation.

grammaton76
08-11-2006, 12:02 PM
Join the Garand Collector's Association.

Got some details? Maybe a link?

mikehaas
08-11-2006, 12:08 PM
...My understanding it's a one-man show - only one person makes the decisions at CRPA...
Sorry, was wrong in my earlier post. CRPA isn't run by one person. I received this from a former CRPA board member...

"...there are actually four key folks running this dynasty... These are the real 'Executive Committee' and they have been refining their power by passing more amendments to the by laws (without discussion) and the BOD has no clue because they are selected because they are known in advance to be persons that won't challenge leadership..."

I stand corrected.

Mike

mikehaas
08-11-2006, 12:19 PM
This could be a case of California ammo retailers that support restrictions on mail order ammo from out of state making their voices heard with CRPA and GOC... Sometimes it's hard for pro-gun groups to fight a bad law when the bad law is supported by powerful and vocal segments of the gun community.
Very astute. Last I spoke with Ed Worley and Paul Payne (yesterday), they were as serious as ever about opposing AB 2714 - no hint of caving. Thank God for NRA - the rest have just shown their true colors.
BTW, doesn't GOC like to call themselves the "NO COMPROMISE" gun group? :-)

Personally, I'm glad this broke - I've been watching CRPA's funny business for about 3 years now, and GOC at least twice that long. I've watched NRA take a beating in forums over stuff they had nothing to do with, while these groups are adored as the lean and mean alternatives. Lean, yes. Mean? Only if you ask questions about their "pro-gun strategy". Now the truth is getting out.

I guess for some CA gun groups, the only victory they can achieve is to work the anti-gun line and betray their members. Then they feed their members BS in their newsletters and magazines about how ammo restrictions are now in their best interest. Pitiful.

Mike

odysseus
08-11-2006, 4:09 PM
This whole thread makes me ill. It's tough to comprehend a "gun rights" group actually agreeing with this obvious grab to limit legal gun owners from their rights. This usual garbage keeps going around.

Creeping Incrementalism
08-11-2006, 4:35 PM
I've watched NRA take a beating in forums over stuff they had nothing to do with, while these groups are adored as the lean and mean alternatives. Lean, yes. Mean? Only if you ask questions about their "pro-gun strategy". Now the truth is getting out.

I guess for some CA gun groups, the only victory they can achieve is to work the anti-gun line and betray their members. Then they feed their members BS in their newsletters and magazines about how ammo restrictions are now in their best interest. Pitiful.

Mike

I am truly at a loss here. These groups oppose things like a sign that says guns can be dangerous in the home being posted at FFLs, but then support/don't oppose a bill requiring photo ID to receive ammo?

Thanks, Mike, for all your hard work.

Creeping Incrementalism
08-11-2006, 4:40 PM
Got some details? Maybe a link?

http://www.thegca.org/

mikehaas
08-11-2006, 6:24 PM
Also...Mike...they have a letter from Wayne LaPierre supporting them on their website. Is this no longer valid?

http://www.crpa.org/showpages.asp?pid=1003
I'm not going to speak for Wayne - no sir. My opinions are my own.

Yeah, seen it. Not going to expound too much on that little bit of web graphics. I'll just note that it looks to me like one of those generic letters that is sent to all state-affiliated associations. And did you notice - there's no date on that letter?

Mike

tacticalcity
08-11-2006, 6:58 PM
The comment about most online sites requiring a copy of the drivers liscense if false. I buy ammo from all the major online sites. Never been carded once.

As the owner of an online store, I would simply refuse to sell in California. Most will choose this path. Cheaperthandirt.com is one of my favorite suppliers, and they take these kind of laws so seriously that they typically go overboard.

An example...because AR-15s are illegal here, they wont sell us anything remotely connected with an AR, including flash light mounts made for for it, or handguards, or other parts that are perfectly legal here. They figure by going overboard...they can't get sued.

Most sites refuse to ship "off-list" lowers here, even though they are legal. Simply because it is too much effort to check the list to make sure it hasn't been added, or research the law to be certain they are legal.

This law will cause a majority, not all but most, online resellers to blacklist California. Hell, I'm from California...and I won't put up with this time consuming and costly B.S. so why should they? It's extra work for the same out of money on an individual sale. Their an online store so they don't have to pay a sales staff...this law adds cost to doing business with us.

For them, it is about profits. If the cost of selling to Californians exceeds the cost of not selling to us...they'll choose not to sell to us.

Gregas
08-11-2006, 8:18 PM
Are there any other organizations that qualify and are in the same $18.00 price range?

If you are in Socal and show up at one of our matches, you can join the JPL Gun Club for $10. Matches are on the third Saturday of every other month at Angeles. Next match is in September. We are a CMP affiliated club and if you shoot in the match ($8 match fee + ammo [$15 or bring your own]), no experience required, you will also get the required shooting credit. You can get the club affilliation, but no shooting credit for just $10, but if you are going to show up, you might as well shoot! We will even lend you a rifle for the match. We make it easy. Bring your body, your brain and a few bucks. Offer only good in person.

M. Sage
08-11-2006, 9:56 PM
The comment about most online sites requiring a copy of the drivers liscense if false. I buy ammo from all the major online sites. Never been carded once.

The only site I've bought from that required an ID so far was Aim Surplus. I did get a shipment from Outdoor Marksman, I think it was, that UPS was supposed to require signature and check my ID, but the driver still left it on my porch anyway. The other 2 or 3 I've used: no ID checks.

hoffmang
08-11-2006, 10:26 PM
Let me state something somewhat obvious... This law started out as an attempt to ban all ammo shipments to California. It is now simply and only a law that says that an ammo seller must check the box that says "ID required" for UPS or Fedex. As a point of fact, ORM-D shipments (which all ammo shipments in the US are) may actually already require ID when delivered so this may be an utterly moot law. Which one of you guys complaining that this law -as neutered - exists is going to write the pages of legal text or pay a lawyer to write that, or sit in Sacramento and work against it?

I wrote multiple multi page letters that explained the commerce clause implications if this bill was passed in a form unlike its current one. Campaign to get more assemblymen and senators that aren't anti gun or be happy that we kept the status quo which is a hell of a win in a state where we're out voted. The alternative was an end to internet ammo orders of all types and at best an expensive lawsuit that we may or may not have won. Are those of you that are complaining ready to write checks to support a legal challenge?

-G

Can'thavenuthingood
08-12-2006, 9:28 AM
Okay I'm out of the CRPA and so is my wife.
Also scraping the GOA stickers.
Subterfuge for personal gain, personal benefit. May their anals leak.

I'm hoping the SAF is on the up and up.

On the other hand, NRA funding just increased.

Vick

mikehaas
08-12-2006, 12:01 PM
...I find it hard to believe that the NRA would go on record dumping that much on other organisations.

On the other hand, after the "jack-booted thugs" debacle, maybe I don't find it that hard to believe.
NRA would not publicly dump on another "gun" group. Notice even when the vile KABA was at it's worst attacking them at every turn (KABA even attacked the Members' Councils - volunteers!), NRA stayed mum. Not only does NRA has a REAL RESPONSIBILITY toward the Second Amendment (doesn't matter what the small groups say or do), they don't have to fund-raise by tearing anyone else down (except the anti-gunners, of course).

The last time to my knowledge NRA ever publicly discussed the "hate-NRA, send-us-money-instead" groups was in 1978. Neal Knox (God rest his soul) was ED of ILA and he used his American Rifleman column to blast them. See "The Front Line", American Rifleman, Nov. 1978, Page 80 - the article "NRA Expects Attacks But Not From Friends". Very revealing. Here's a quote:

"...in recent months, we have been uncharacteristically quiet in the face of a drumroll of attacks upon the NRA and its leaders. Each of those attacks was damaging, for each cost us the confidence of some members, and some of those attacks even caused us to lose members-thereby giving aid and comfort to the NRA's enemies. Yet we remained quiet-for those attacks came from groups claiming to be NRA's friends, and for us to have defended ourselves publicly would have sown disunity among the ranks of gun owners..."

Neal had it right: "...Having come to the NRA Institute just this year, and having observed pointless bickering between pro-gun organizations in the past, I issued firm orders that there was to be none from the ILA in the future..."

Small gun groups have a financial incentive to oppose NRA - they don't get as many donations when they act like an NRA clone and actually SUPPORT gun-rights (donors then tend to donate to NRA and bypass the smaller groups). If they are politically irrlelevant and don't have a real REASON TO EXIST (like the Fifty Caliber Institute http://fiftycal.org/ has with .50 caliber rifles), you see them separate themselves and oppose NRA's positions. If they can convince 1% of the NRA membership they are right and get them to donate to them instead, it represents a huge windfall for a tiny group. Why do you think GOA opposed NRA's relaxed-CCW efforts so frequently in the last 10 years? (Michigan, Texas and more - all places where GOA opposed relaxed CCW.)

And as long as we're on the subject of ancient history...

I'm sure most here know that BATF was first called "jack-booted thugs" (an apt description for their behavior back then) by Democrat Representative John Dingell, but the media didn't care. It was only when Wayne called them that phrase that the media piled on. Treelogger is of course free to attack NRA over it too - even now, 15 years later, but to do so, one has to ignore the truth and preserve and join the mainstream media's selective "pile on" effort. I agreed with Wayne then and still think he was right.

Mike

just4fun63
08-12-2006, 7:35 PM
Thanks for the link to GCA :D
By CRPA:mad:
Maybe it's time to think about moving to endowment member:eek:

CalNRA
08-13-2006, 12:54 AM
Mike:

Thanks for your hard work. it is indeed disturbing to see a so called gun-rights organization to sell out so blatantly. Disgusting.

I wanted to attend the ALameda NRA member's council's meeting a week and half ago but it was cancelled. Glad to see the organization is holding its ground.:thumbsup:

kantstudien
08-13-2006, 2:49 AM
At least the CRPA helps us out in one way: We can get CMP Garands! :D

Mirage
08-13-2006, 10:01 AM
All of the ammo and reloading component suppliers that I use have required a copy of my drivers license, and other info to be FAXed to them in order to make a purchase. The UPS and FedX drivers are supposed to check the ID and get a signature, but most times I find the delivery on my porch anyway, or I see them running to their truck as I answer the door (It makes me wonder if they think I am some kind of kook that they want to get away from ASAP)
I will remain a member of CRPA, at least until a better organization comes along. Maybe Calguns could develop into the next California gun rights organization. I also had to show that I was a current member of the CRPA when I won in a Service Rifle Competition. I suppose if I wasn't then I would have had to forfeit. If that is a requirement for Service Rifle Competitions then that gives them a lot of power with me, as I do love those competitions.

NRAhighpowershooter
08-13-2006, 11:33 AM
Unfortunately a LOT of us that shoot HP matches HAVE to be a member of the CRPA to be able to shoot state and regional matches and EIC matches.

Dont Tread on Me
08-13-2006, 12:33 PM
Is CRPA membership a perquisite for both CMP and High Power Matchers or is there an alternative?

Seams kind of strange that an association with a totally closed leadership can get itself in a position where it is the only game in town to get access to competitions.

Gregas
08-13-2006, 2:06 PM
Is CRPA membership a perquisite for both CMP and High Power Matchers or is there an alternative?

For high power matches, it depends upon the match. As pointed out earlier, CRPA membeship is *not* required for CMP purchases. It is not a requirement for CMP matches either. For CMP purchases, join the GCA, or better yet, your local CMP affiliated club.

Here is a list of CMP-affiliated clubs in CA:

http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/clubSearchSubmit.cgi?all=YES&clubMembership=OPEN;state=CA

CTT2
08-14-2006, 1:05 PM
For high power matches, it depends upon the match. As pointed out earlier, CRPA membeship is *not* required for CMP purchases. It is not a requirement for CMP matches either. For CMP purchases, join the GCA, or better yet, your local CMP affiliated club.

Here is a list of CMP-affiliated clubs in CA:

http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/clubSearchSubmit.cgi?all=YES&clubMembership=OPEN;state=CA


If you are a Veteran join your local VFA that will fulfill the CMP requirement, or if you are still active or in the reserves that's good enough.

Talkin2u2
08-15-2006, 1:48 PM
Okay I'm out of the CRPA and so is my wife.
Also scraping the GOA stickers.
Subterfuge for personal gain, personal benefit. May their anals leak.

I'm hoping the SAF is on the up and up.

On the other hand, NRA funding just increased.

Vick


Many of us have figured that our recently also. Welcome to the club. :)

It's not so hard to keep us gun owners happy. All these groups need to do is remain true to the pro-gun cause, use a little political sophistication, and represent us as their constituients. The money, that they desparately need to operate, would come to them if they did these things.

Its as easy as working WITH the NRA and not trying to oppose the NRA by making deals and opposing NRA's proposed legislation.

RS
Sac, CA

bwiese
08-15-2006, 2:35 PM
Its as easy as working WITH the NRA and not trying to oppose the NRA by making deals and opposing NRA's proposed legislation.


Well, when NRA supports idiocy like AB2111, you gotta question it. 2111 makes handgun sales harder for marginal protection of the individual.

I know they had a good goal, but the favorability of the result was so miniscule and it costs gun dealers extra time & money. They're already under enough fire.

If gun dealers go under, guns go under.

Talkin2u2
08-15-2006, 3:01 PM
Well, when NRA supports idiocy like AB2111, you gotta question it. 2111 makes handgun sales harder for marginal protection of the individual.

I know they had a good goal, but the favorability of the result was so miniscule and it costs gun dealers extra time & money.


Since it was signed into law, and there are other immediate legislative priorities for gun owners, I'm not going to argue/rehash the whole AB2111 issue here. I will only say that I am absolutely certain you are wrong about AB2111. In fact, when this bill was being debated, here on Calguns, I asked two different lawyers about it. They both (independently) said the NRA was correct about it. BTW, one was a gun lawyer, one was not.

In my humble opinion, I think we should focus on our immediate dangers that lay ahead and their are plenty of them.

RS
Sac, CA

CTT2
08-16-2006, 12:24 AM
I remember talking to 2 gun organization dudes back in Feb when I was on leave at a gun show. I don't remember if they were CRPA or NRA. One of them was really friendly, I brought up the OLL question and the second guy sounded pretty disgruntle. Said something like if we keep pushing the issue then all guns might get banned. Guess he was more interested in bolt guns than semi autos. There was also a dealer there that had stripped upper recievers and I asked about lowers. He pulled one OLL and showed it to me, he didn't want to sell it, I offered 200. Damn it that's like a hooker soliciting and you offer 200 and she doesn't want to give it up. Then an older gentleman also browsing pokes at me and says "I got two AR's in the closet never got the chance to register them, but that's where they're staying". Guess I'll just go play with the M16.